I am being petitioned by my wife for a divorce on the grounds that our marriage has broken down irretrievably now that I have revealed I am transgender.

She does not wish to wait for the two years required for a no-fault divorce to be granted or the two years needed to have the marriage annulled through the GRC process. She has instead chosen to argue that our divorce should be granted on the basis of my 'unreasonable behaviour'; given that it would now be 'unreasonable' for her to be expected to remain married to me since she originally married a man, and that she is heterosexual and does not wish to be married to a woman, and also that since we separated I have 'behaved unreasonably' by living full-time as a woman.

I am completely sympathetic to her position and recognise that our marriage is now over. I also realise that the breakdown of our marriage was completely down to me revealing to her that I was transsexual. However, is it right for the Courts to consider this revelation to my wife and also the wish to seek medical treatment in itself grounds for 'unreasonable behaviour'? Is being a transsexual seeking medical treatment, which is a protected characteristic of the Equalities Act (2010), a valid reason for a quicker 'fault-based' divorce to be granted; potentially making me liable to pay all costs?  

I have no real problem in divorcing quickly. I really want to cause the least amount of anguish as possible. However, I'm really offended that the revelation about my Gender Identity to my wife and also that I wanted to see my doctor about it can be considered 'unreasonable behaviour' and so used against me in the courts. It seems unfair that divorces can be fast-tracked through the court system on this basis, given that it would take at least two years to do if no fault could be proved. This appears to me as direct discrimination against transsexuals and unfair. I would be happier if divorce would be permitted on a no-fault basis once a partner has revealed their intention of changing gender. 

My Solicitor has advised me to submit a counter petition if I feel aggrieved about the grounds used for divorce. She thinks this would counter the origonal petition and allow the courts to grant the divorce anyway, and in most cases the costs are then paid seperately. But my solicitor has warned me that if my counter petition fails, then I may have to pay all the costs myself. 

I have spoken to many people about this. Most seem to say I should just agree to the petition and get the whole thing over with as quickly as possible, even though the whole thing seems unfair. There seems very little on the Internet about this, and it’s difficult for me to decide what to do. I can't be the only one this has happened to, can I?

This post was edited by Alexandra Stone at September 3, 2015 3:16 AM BST

No you are not the only one, not by a long way! My very dear friend had this happen to her, and it wasn't pretty, having read some of the accusations made by the ex-wife. But that's how the courts work; it's often not pretty.

On the one hand, "unreasonable behaviour" seems very harsh. On the other hand one can understand a woman not wanting to stick around; this isn't what she signed up for, though personally I just think that is small-minded. So the courts will likely take the view that your "behaviour" is unreasonable in the sense that it is not conducive to a regular, healthy marriage.

However you are not at fault simply by being transgender, and if these particular grounds are considered an "at fault divorce" then it is indeed discrimination against transsexuals. We can't help the way we are, we are born like this, and if a husband were to suffer some freak accident or health problem that meant he could no longer fulfill his "marital duties", it wouldn't be considered unreasonable behaviour. In both cases, the husband can't help their circumstances. 

But the court could take the view that it was unreasonable to go ahead with the marriage without telling the future wife about your transgenderness. Although I'm sure there's no such word...

Having seen the dismal way in which my friend was apparently regarded by the court, cast aside with disdain by her wife, restricted access to her children and eventually having them turn against her - I'd really like to see someone challenge these grounds for divorce in court. It could be a landmark case, but I have little confidence at this time that such a challenge would be succesful; one would need a very good solicitor au fait with TG issues and rights, and money with which to gamble.

If it was me I'd just want it over quickly and wouldn't fight it. Whilst ashamed of my own cowardness, I also know there is a lot for a newly out TG to be getting on with. So perhaps your energies could be better spent elsewhere, rather than fighting your wife and the system in general.

But good luck with whatever you do, this is bound to be a difficult time and I really feel for you.

xx

Thank you so much for your reply. I've been thinking about this for months now, and you've pretty much summed up everything that I been feeling...wow!

After a LOT of thought, I've decided to contest the divorce, if only so that I can have my say. I think this would upset me for the rest of my life if I didn't stand up for myself on this issue. As the Law stands, there is no shortcut to divorce on the grounds of being transgender. I think if there was, and given how much I love my wife, how much she and our family are hurting, and also how important this is for her to have the marriage recognised to have broken down irretrievably in Law, I would readily agree to a quick divorce on those grounds; and perhaps the English Marriage Laws need to be updated to reflect this. But unfortunately, there are no such grounds, and it just feels unreasonable in itself and actually a very Lazy way out to accept that by seeking medical help and revealing that I am transexual to my family and friends that this could in itself be construed by the courts as demonstrating 'unreasonable behaviour'.

I think I just want to be treated fairly under the law and for the law to protect me if necessessary as I transition. 

After some searching (and a trip to Sparkle!) I found a Solicitor who has an interest in LGBT issues and Family Law. Her Name is Beveley Jones and she is a partner of dwf Solicitors in Liverpool (www.dwf.co.uk 0151 907 3372) and has agreed to act on my behalf (Once I started asking my previous high street solicitor about issues around Equality Law, she quickly recommeded that I find someone else).

At Pride this week I also had a chat with Slater and Gordon Lawyers, who had a stand at the Expo. They also have an interest in LGBT family Law (http://www.slatergordon.co.uk 0808 175 8105).

My main problem I think is of course financial. Fundementally I would like the divorce to ended on a no-fault basis, and not on the grounds of my unreasonable behaviour. If this outcome is not possible then I would be prepared to take the matter further. I can just about afford to pay Solicitors to help prepare my legal documents and provide me with initial advice. But when it goes to court I will have to represent myself. If it goes any further I would not have the funds to pay for specialist advice around Equalities Law and cannot afford a Barrister. I have thought about joining my local university library and having a look into applicable case law etc, but I think what I really need to do is to find is an academic who has an interest in Equality and Family Law who could point me in the right direction. 

I have contacted Stonewall, who have just started to become interested in Gender Identity issues, but so far had no reply, although I get the feeling that they themselves feel very inexperienced in this area, but may be looking at possible campaigning issues for the future.

Beaumont are brill, but any questions are passed onto their region (volunteer reps). I already know my regional rep very well through the Machester Concord (Rach is lovely:), but as a volunteer her knowledge on this area is understandably very limited.

Any other suggestions would be gratefully recieved, and thanks again!

A

Thank you so much for all this advice. It's all very much appreciated.

I am hopeful that by putting in a cross-petition arguing that in my view it is unreasonable for the protected characteristic of gender reasignment to be used as grounds for 'unreasonable behaviour', and that therefore my wife is acting unreasonably in asking for a divorce based on these grounds.

Hopefully, it may encourage my wife to agree on cross decrees, effectivley divorcing each other, based on our respective Petitions, and then each pay our own costs. It's still based on the recognition that our marriage has broken down irretrievably on the grounds of (each others) unreasonable behaviour, but it feels slightly better than being blamed simply for admitting to being transgender.

I still wish that she would wait until we could divorce on a no fault basis, but this isn't going to happen. 

 

Fingers crossed x 

 

I've recieved and acknowleged my wife's divorce petition, indicating that I wish to defend her petition on the grounds that I don't think it's reasonable for a divorce to be granted on a fault-basis (i.e. quicker) simply because I am transexual and seeking medical treatment. 

After a lot of thought, I have decided to post my wifes Statement of Case, my answer to this petition and my cross petiton on this forumhere, so that others within the transgender community can consider my arguments and (hopefully?) offer me some support. Obviously I feel quite alone, very saddened by the whole thing and a bit vulnerable at the moment. I would appreciate your thoughts on whether you think my petition and answer can be improved, or whether you think what I am doing is right or a waste of time and money. For the time being, I feel that although the end result will be the same - that the courts will agree to the divorce, at least I feel slightly more in control of my divorce, and that I have had a right of reply. I don't think I could live with myself if I didn't, and for me, I think this is a very important part of my personal transition. Here goes.....

(p.s. and thanks very much to my Solicitor Beverley for helping me draft my answer and cross-petition

 

My Wife's Petition - Statement of Case

===========================

In August 2013 the Respondent informed the Petitioner that he felt he was the wrong sex. Over time, this led to the separation of the parties and subsequently the Petitioner moved out of the family home.

Since the separation of the parties the Respondent has changed his name via deed poll to reflect his wish of a gender change and wears female clothing to work. The Respondent has informed the Petitioner that he is undergoing hormone treatment. The Respondent has also undergone cosmetic treatment and has had voice coaching.

Since separation the parties have argued a lot and the Petitioner feels the Respondent will not discuss matters amicably with her. The Respondent has stated on numerous occasions the he feels the Petitioner has been unfair in ending the relationship because of his gender change. However, the Petitioner feels that the pressure from the Respondent to continue with the marriage is unfair and it is unreasonable for the Respondent to expect the Petitioner to continue with the marriage when she is heterosexual and she married the Respondent when he was a male.

The Petitioner finds the Respondent’s behaviour intolerable and cannot carry on with the marriage. The Petitioner therefore believes the marriage has broken down irretrievably.

 

My Draft Answer

===========

Part 3 –Statement of case

 

THE RESPONDENT WILL TAKE EACH OF THE PETITIONER’S ALLEGATIONS IN TURN AND STATE HER REASONS FOR DEFENDING HERSELF AGAINST SUCH ALLEGATIONS:-

THE RESPONDENT ACCEPTS THAT SHE DISCUSSED WITH THE PETITIONER REGARDING HER FEELINGS SURROUNDING GENDER DYSPHORIA AND SOUGHT HER SUPPORT IN SEEKING MEDICAL ADVICE/ASSISTANCE. THE PETITIONER REFUSED TO SUPPORT THE RESPONDENT AND THREATENED THAT IF SHE SOUGHT TO TRANSITION, SHE WOULD BRING THE RELATIONSHIP TO AN END, A THREAT WHICH THE PETITIONER SUBSEQUENTLY CARRIED OUT.

THE RESPONDENT DENIES THAT THE CONVERSATION IN AUGUST 2013 LED TO THE SEPARATION OF THE PARTIES, BUT RATHER THAT IT WAS THE PETITIONER’S REFUSAL TO SUPPORT THE RESPONDENT AS ABOVE, THE PETITIONER CARRIED OUT HER THREAT TO END THE MARRIAGE IN JUNE 2014.

THE RESPONDENT ASSERTS THAT THE PETITIONER SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN LEFT FEELING ISOLATED, AS IN HER OWN PETITION IT IS APPARENT THAT THE RESPONDENT SOUGHT TO DISCUSS AND INVOLVE THE PETITIONER WITH HER TRANSITION FROM AUGUST 2013. THE MARRIAGE CONTINUED FOR A FURTHER TEN MONTHS AFTER THESE DISCUSSIONS.

IT IS NOT DISPUTED THAT THE RESPONDENT HAS CHANGED HER NAME IN JANUARY 2014. THE RESPONDENT REFUTES THAT THIS BEHAVIOUR CAN ITSELF BE CONSIDERED AS UNREASONABLE, GIVEN THAT IT WAS CARRIED OUT FOR THE PURPOSE OF REASSIGNING THE RESPONDENTS SEX BY CHANGING AN ATTRIBUTE OF HER SEX. THE APPLICANT REFUSED TO INVOLVE HERSELF WITH THIS PROCESS, LEAVING THE RESPONDENT FEELING INCREASINGLY ISOLATED AND SOLELY RELIANT ON THE EXPERTISE OF MEDICAL EXPERTS AND COUNSELLORS THAT SPECIALISE WITHIN THE FIELD OF GENDER DYSPHORIA AND GENDER IDENTITY. THE PETITIONER HAD REQUESTED THAT THE RESPONDENT NOT SEEK TO LIVE FULL-TIME IN ROLE AS A WOMEN UNTIL THEIR SON HAD BEEN TOLD. IT WAS MUTUALLY AGREED THAT THIS WOULD BE DONE AFTER THEIR SON HAD COMPLETED HIS A’LEVEL EXAMS IN JUNE 2014. THE RESPONDENT ONLY BEGAN LIVING FULL-TIME IN ROLE AS FEMALE, WHICH IS A CONDITION THAT MUST BE SATISFIED IF THE RESPONDENT IS EVER TO SEEK A GENDER RECOGNITION CERTIFICATE OR UNDERGO SEX REASSIGNMENT SURGERY, AFTER THE PETITIONER HAD VACATED THE MATRIMONIAL HOME AND BROUGHT THE MARRIAGE TO AN END IN JUNE 2014.

IT IS NOT DENIED THAT THE RESPONDENT HAS INFORMED THE PETITIONER THAT SHE IS UNDERGOING HORMONE TREATMENT, COSMETIC CHANGES, HAS HAD VOICE COACHING AND WEARS CLOTHING THAT IDENTIFIES HER AS FEMALE. THE RESPONDENT HAS BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH GENDER DYSPHORIA AND IS PRESENTLY UNDER THE CARE OF THE NHS AT THE CHARING CROSS GENDER IDENTITY CLINIC IN LONDON.  THE PETITIONER HAS REFUSED TO SUPPORT OR DISCUSS THESE MATTERS WITH THE RESPONDENT.

THE PETITIONER VACATED THE MATRIMONIAL HOME IN JUNE 2014 AND BROUGHT THE MARRIAGE TO AN END. THE RESPONDENT DENIES THAT THE PARTIES HAVE ARGUED A LOT SINCE SEPARATION, BUT INSTEAD FEELS LIKE THE PETITIONER REFUSES TO WORK AT THE MARRIAGE AND WILL NOT DISCUSS AT ALL THE RESPONDENT’S TRANSITION.

THE RESPONDENT HAS SOUGHT TO WORK AT THE MARRIAGE AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN HER PREFERENCE TO REMAIN IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PETITIONER. IT IS NOT ACCEPTED THAT IT IS UNREASONABLE FOR THE RESPONDENT TO EXPECT THE PETITIONER TO CONTINUE WITH THE MARRIAGE. THE RESPONDENT HAS SIMPLY SOUGHT THE PETITIONER’S SUPPORT AFTER A LONG MARRIAGE, WITH HER DIAGNOSIS OF GENDER DYSPHORIA AND THE PETITIONER HAS REFUSED TO CONSIDER THIS.

IT IS ACCEPTED THAT THE PETITIONER MARRIED THE RESPONDENT WHEN SHE WAS IDENTIFYING AS MALE, BUT IT IS NOT ACCEPTED THAT IDENTIFYING AS TRANSGENDER IS CONSIDERED SUCH UNREASONABLE BEHAVIOUR AS TO ALLOW A FAULT BASED DIVORCE TO PROCEED.

THE RESPONDENT REFERS TO SECTION 7 OF THE EQUALITY ACT AND PARTICULARLY, THAT AS A PERSON WITH THE PROTECTED CHARACTERISTIC OF GENDER REASSIGNMENT, SHE SHOULD NOT BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST

THE RESPONDENT HAS REQUESTED THAT THE PARTIES WORK AT THE MARRIAGE AND FURTHER SOUGHT THE PETITIONER’S SUPPORT IN HER TRANSITION. THIS HAS BEEN REFUSED.

THE RESPONDENT HAD INVITED THE PETITIONER TO DELAY APPLYING FOR A DIVORCE UNTIL THE PARTIES HAD BEEN SEPARATED FOR TWO YEARS TO ENSURE A NO FAULT BASED DIVORCE. THE PETITIONER HAS UNREASONABLY REFUSED THIS REQUEST

THE RESPONDENT NOW ACCEPTS THAT THE MARRIAGE HAS IRRETRIEVABLY BROKEN DOWN, BUT BELIEVES THAT IT IS AS A RESULT OF THE PETITIONER’S REFUSAL TO SUPPORT AND ACCEPT HER TRANSITION AND HER VACATING THE MATRIMONIAL HOME, THAT HAS LED TO THE BREAKDOWN OF THE MARRIAGE.  THE RESPONDENT REFERS TO HER CROSS PETITION IN THIS REGARD.

 

My Draft Cross Petition

=================

PART 6 STATEMENT OF CASE

 

THE GENERAL AND ABIDING NATURE OF THE PETITIONER’S COMPLAINT AGAINST THE RESPONDENT IS THAT SHE HAS FAILED TO SUPPORT AND/OR EVEN ATTEMPT TO UNDERSTAND THE PETITIONER’S TRANSITION.

IN AUGUST 2013 THE PETITIONER SOUGHT TO DISCUSS WITH THE RESPONDENT HOW SHE FELT ABOUT HER GENDER IDENTITY AND THE DIFFICULTIES SHE WAS FACING IDENTIFYING AS MALE. THE RESPONDENT EFFECTIVELY DISMISSED THE PETITIONER’S UPSET AND DIFFICULTIES IN THIS REGARD AND THREATENED THAT IF SHE SOUGHT TO SEEK MEDICAL ASSISTANCE OR TRANSITION, SHE WOULD BRING THE MARRIAGE TO AN END. THIS LEFT THE PETITIONER DEVASTATED AS SHE HAD TRUSTED THE RESPONDENT AND DESPERATELY CRAVED HER SUPPORT.

THE PETITIONER IS NOW UNDER THE CARE OF THE GENDER IDENTITY CLINIC AT THE CHARING CROSS HOSPITAL IN LONDON FOR HER TRANSEXUALISM AND HAS BEEN DIAGNOSED AS HAVING GENDER DYSPHORIA. THE PETITIONER IS UNDERGOING TREATMENT AT THE CHARING CROSS CLINIC WITH THE PURPOSE OF REASSIGNING HER SEX PERMANENTLY FROM MALE TO FEMALE. THE RESPONDENT REFUSES TO SUPPORT THIS AND/OR ATTEND ANY CLINIC APPOINTMENTS WITH HER.

THE RESPONDENT CARRIED OUT HER THREAT TO BRING THE MARRIAGE TO AN END IN JUNE 2014 WHEN SHE VACATED THE MATRIMONIAL HOME, TAKING THE PARTIES’ SON WITH HER. SHE HAS REFUSED TO MEET WITH THE PETITIONER FACE TO FACE SINCE THIS TIME TO DISCUSS THE RELATIONSHIP AND/OR TRY TO SAVE THE MARRIAGE. THE PETITIONER IS DEVASTATED THAT SHE IS NOT BEING SUPPORTED BY THE RESPONDENT DURING HER TRANSITION, WHICH HAS MADE HER FEEL ALONE AND UNLOVED DURING A PARTICULARLY VULNERABLE TIME.

FURTHER TO SEPARATION THE PETITIONER HAS REQUESTED THAT THE RESPONDENT WAIT TWO YEARS TO PETITION, ON THE BASIS OF TWO YEARS SEPARATION WITH CONSENT, OR ALTERNATIVELY, WAIT UNTIL SHE OBTAINS HER INTERIM GENDER RECOGNITION CERTIFICATE, TO ALLOW THE MARRIAGE TO BE VOID. THE RESPONDENT HAS REFUSED TO DO THIS, INSTEAD SEEKING TO BLAME THE PETITIONER FOR THE BREAKDOWN OF THE MARRIAGE.

THE RESPONDENT HAS BEEN REQUESTED TO WITHDRAW HER DIVORCE PETITION AS IT IS UNREASONABLY SEEKING TO RELY ON A PROTECTED CHARACTERISTIC UNDER THE EQUALITY ACT (2010) AS GROUNDS FOR UNREASONABLE BEHAVIOUR. THE RESPONDENT TO DATE HAS REFUSED TO DO SO.

THE RESPONDENT STEADFASTLY REFUSES TO ACCEPT THE PETITIONER’S TRANSITION OR EVEN DISCUSS THE POSSIBILITY OF RECONCILIATION AND AS SUCH, THE PETITIONER HAS COME TO THE EXTREMELY SAD CONCLUSION THAT THE MARRIAGE HAS BROKEN DOWN.

THE PETITIONER HOWEVER PRAYS FOR THE MARRIAGE TO BE BROUGHT TO AN END ON THE BASIS OF THE RESPONDENT’S UNREASONABLE BEHAVIOUR IN REFUSING TO SUPPORT HER DURING SUCH AN EMOTIONAL AND VULNERABLE PERIOD IN HER LIFE.

This post was edited by Alexandra Stone at September 7, 2015 1:16 PM BST

Thanks Cristine, I really appreciate your opinion. My solicitor has contacted my wife today outlining that I intend to contest the divorce asking her if she would consider withdrawing the petition. And now that she knows that I intend to defend myself if she decides to argue that my behaviour is unreasonable, the hope is that she will either wait for a divorce on a no-fault basis in about 10 months from now or enter into  a process of collaborative engagement. I don't really want this to get to court, and would like to resolve it all amicably - which is why I want to wait for a no-fault divorce. The sad thing is that the marriage IS over regardless of what happens in the courts  :(

 

Also, I don't want my marriage to become some sort of campainging issue, as this would be both hurtful to the both of us, but I would like the transgender community not to be discriminated against in this way. It feels so unfair to be divorced on the basis of seeking medical treatment for gender dysphoria. There has to be a way in encouraging the lawmakers to update existing divorce laws to permit a no-fault divorce on the basis of irretrievable breakdown of the marriage given these type of circumstances. Any suggestions on how to go about this? 

This post was edited by Alexandra Stone at September 7, 2015 2:41 PM BST

As well... I suppose the argument I'm making is that I don't believe a persons' gender should be considered a 'behaviour' and in itself 'unreasonable'. Perhaps it would be better to ask for an annulment, given I always considered myself female, and the law at the time did not permit single sex marriage?
This post was edited by Alexandra Stone at September 7, 2015 3:52 PM BST

Alexandra,

After reading through this thread I can see two options open to you for this;

 

1. You agree to the grounds for divorce with your wife because it would get everything over and done with because you both can agree that your marriage is over but..... In doing this though would you give most of the leverage to your wife to claim most if not all of the estate that was accrued during your time together?

2. You submit your counter claim & you both pay soliciters to reach a somewhat amicable settlement but you both spend lump sums to achieve this.

 

I can see this as a very difficult choice for you to undertake & that it looks to be a lose-lose situation for you.

If this comes accross callous or uncaring it was not my attention, this is just my opionion on what I have seen here

Thanks Christine, I think my solicitor believes that my answer defends my wife's petition, and that I then need to submit my own cross-petition declaring that the marriage has ended and broken down irretrievably to protect myself against having all the costs necessarily awarded against me. My solicitor believes the risks of not submitting a cross-petition are that that the courts will simply list the matter for a hearing. I'm not sure exactly what the best solution is to this. Would it be best to force the issue to a full hearing anyway? Is this going to happen in any case if I choose to defend my wife's original petition?

Hopefully both petitions effectivly cancel out each other and the judge awards costs shared between both parties, rather than the person being blamed (i.e. me) - it seems the only way of arguing that is by submitting petty arguments to the court that actually my wife is the one behaving unreasonably. The whole process feels petty to me. I work as a nurse, and I have to deal with the reality of situations all the time; my marriage is already dead, resucitation has failed. I personally don't require legal recognition of this in the courts to tell me something I already recognise and then pay for the privilege!.

I've had a look into collaborative engagments, they sound good. I don't think we could agree to this since, someone still has to take the blame (i.e. be the one at fault)....I would feel agrieved for the rest of my life if it had to be me based on the 'behaviour' of revealing I was transexual. But is this your point? i.e. to argue that there is no way in law to come to an amicable divorce given our situation, and so the courts should consider ammending existing law?

My preference is an no-fault divorce. UK divorce law doesn't allow this for two years. My wife doesn't want to wait, and so has filed a petition blaming me for my behaviour, which I find very upsetting. To me it feels as if she is trying to short-cut the whole process in a way that discriminates against transexauls in general, and so should not be permissible by the courts. That said, our marraige is most definately over. I just wish there was a way in law to have the marraige voided or a divorce granted in the timescales my wife wants, without blaming anyone. Then we would both be happier. 

 

This post was edited by Alexandra Stone at September 9, 2015 2:12 PM BST

I've recieved an answer to my Answer and Cross Petiton. My wife has decided to defend my cross-petition. Both petitions were considered by the Family Court and have now been passed over to the County Courts to schedule a directions appointment with a County Court Judge. I'm awaiting a date for this hearing.

I'm disappointed really, given how much pressure I felt I was placed under to just 'sign the forms' and agree to the allegations that I was the one whose behaviour was unreasonable. Now that my wife has been confronted with the same decision, and has decided to defend my cross petition makes me think that it was never really about getting a 'quick divorce', and more about me being blamed for the breakdown of our marriage. On reflection, I feel that from the time I admitted to my wife that I was transgender it was clear that my wife no longer wanted to be married to me, so in this respect I feel we are both to 'blame'. I'm simply uncomfortable with the argument that I am at fault because my intention was to seek medical help transitioning, and that this can be considered grounds for me behaving unreasonably. I guess it was money well spent just to establish this hard truth.

Regardless, our marriage is over. I'm glad to have had my say, disapointed that my wife didn't agree to ending the whole thing there and then, but hopeful it will all soon be over.

I've transcribed my Wifes response to my cross-petition below. I want to share my experience with the T-Community, as I can't be the only one who's ever been in this position, or who ever will be?? and I would be grateful for any advice on how best to proceed....I guess I'll be reperesenting myself when it gets to County Court, as I don't really want to bankrupt myself over this. 

 

Statement of Case

=============

The Petitioner will take each of the Respondent’s allegations as stated in the cross petition and state her reasons for defending the cross petition:

1. The petitioner states that she has spent a lot of time attempting to understand the Respondent’s transition. Since August 2013 until June 2014 numerous discussions between the parties took place about the possible effects on the marriage and on the parties’ son due to the Respondent’s transition. The discussions were extremely upsetting and distressing for both parties.

Furthermore, the petitioner has read extensively on the subject namely, academic literature, blogs etc and even sought counselling to help understand and provide her with the skills to assist the respondent and the parties’ son through the difficult time. The Petitioner denies the Respondent’s allegation and would stress that she understands and accepts the Respondent’s transition however, difficulties arose when the Respondent would not acknowledge that his transition fundamentally changed the basis of the parties’ marriage.

1. The Petitioner denies this allegation in its entirety and as stated above has only attempted to support the Respondent hence the Petitioner did not move out the family home straight after separating.
2. The Petitioner confirms that the Respondent has never requested for her to attend any clinic appointments, so she has not been provided an opportunity to refuse or to agree in attending them. The Petitioner denies any allegation of refusing support to the Respondent in relation to the gender change.
3. The Petitioner confirms that since August 2013 the marriage over time gradually broke down. The parties by mutual agreement spent very little time under the same roof, with a few exceptions during school holidays, or weekends when the parties’ son was at home. In order to be supportive to the Respondent, the Petitioner even attended social events as a couple. The Petitioner wishes the Respondent good luck in her new identity.

The Petitioner denies ‘taking the parties son with her’ and highlights their son in June 2014 was 18 years of age, extremely distressed and did not want to remain in the house and therefore left of his own accord. The Petitioner denies refusing to meet the Respondent since their separation and does not recall the Respondent asking for the parties to meet. As stated above the parties discussed the issues in their marriage for a while, which only made matters worse. The Respondent did not provide support to the Petitioner who attempted to discuss matters and instead received disgusting and very sexually offensive remarks from the Respondent.

1. The Petitioner is confused by the Respondent’s approach to the divorce matter. The Respondent is aware that the Petitioner would like the financial matters to be resolved in particular in relation to the former matrimonial home and despite several attempts to start negotiating the financial matters the Respondent has only delayed matters further. The Petitioner therefore could not wait the two years separation to occur before having to potentially issue proceedings at court dealing with outstanding matters.

In any event the Respondent agrees in the cross petition that the marriage has irretrievably broken down and now seeks to blame the Petitioner for the breakdown of the marriage. The Petitioner is extremely upset by the Respondent’s approach.

1. The Petitioner does not agree with the Respondent that she is discriminating against the Respondent in relation to a protected characteristic. As stated in the Petitioner’s divorce petition the pressure that the Respondent has placed upon the Petitioner to continue with the marriage is unfair when the Petitioner feels the marriage has irretrievably broken down. This is the subjective opinion of the Petitioner.
2. The Petitioner denies that the Respondent has asked for a reconciliation. The Petitioner has accepted the Respondent’s transition.
3. The Petitioner denies that she has been unsupportive towards the Respondent as stated above.

 

Reply to answer filed by the Respondent:

No admissions are made with regards to the answer. The Petitioner asserts that the marriage broke down over time since August 2013.

Happy that my personal experiences have been accepted as evidence for the House of Commons Women and Equalities Select Committee

http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/women-and-equalities-committee/inquiries/parliament-2015/transgender-equality/publications/

Written evidence submitted by Alex Stone to the Transgender Equality Inquiry

I am a 44year old transsexual female, presently undergoing treatment to transition from Male to Female.

After telling my wife of twenty years that I intended to seek medical treatment, it was made clear to me that our marriage was effectively over and that she wished to divorce.

Understandably, my wife believes that it is unreasonable for her to continue to live with me as a woman and now wants a divorce. She does not want to wait two years. Under current divorce laws, the only option she has is to divorce me is on the grounds of ‘unreasonable behaviour’; given that it would be ‘unreasonable’ for the courts to expect her to live with me in a lesbian relationship now that I have revealed to her that I have always considered myself to have been female.

By accepting this argument, the legal system would appear to tacitly accept that being transgender is ‘unreasonable’, and that seeking medical treatment for transexualism in itself constitutes ‘unreasonable behaviour’, which I personally find offensive. This is despite transexualism being a ‘protected characteristic’ of the Equalities Act (2010).

I believe that the grounds for a no-fault based divorce should be extended to include when a marriage or civil partnerships has broken down irretrievably due to the revelation of a protected characteristic as contained within the Equalities Act (2010), so that the marriage can be dissolved on a ‘no-fault basis’ if both parties are in agreement.

My personal experience as a user of NHS gender identity services has been quite upsetting. After being referred by my GP for expert opinion within the NHS for the treatment of transexualism, I experienced an eighteen month wait before my initial NHS assessment at the Gender Identity Clinic at Charing Cross London. I then had a six month wait before my second assessment. I was due to wait a further six months before my third assessment, which has been subsequently delayed by a further three months due to staff shortages and training issues. I am hopeful that following this third assessment I will then be referred for surgical reassignment. I understand that there is a further two year wait for surgery once a referral by the Gender Identity Clinic has been made. The length of time from the time I approached my GP to the time I was seen and treated by the NHS has been very distressing. For over two years I have felt very alone and vulnerable. Without the expert advice forthcoming from the GIC, my GP has felt unable to commence treatment. I have been very fortunate enough to be able to access private treatment during this period. In my experience, most women in similar positions have not been able to do this and have just had to wait.

Also I have just received a date for my first Speech Therapy Session from the NHS, scheduled for November this year, which has taken me over two years to receive. There are apparently no services available locally for this specialised form of treatment. I have to travel to London at my own expense to receive this treatment.

5 August 2015

Cristine is hugely more expert than me in these sort of matters, but I think I'm thinking the same thing. Your wife's defence of your cross-petition does not read well, and no, I do not think they necessarily cancel each other out, but without seeing your cross petition in the first place, it's hard to give a balanced opinion.

Cris is right though in her last sentance, and it looks to me like any attempt to defend the accusation that you have behaved unreasonably by claiming that it was your wife who has behaved unreasonably is doomed to failure.

From the court's point of view: your wife files a divorce because you announced you wish to be a woman from now on, and you claim that she is being unreasonable about it?

Your best bet in that scenario would be to hope for a TS judge who might rule in your favour! 

What I think you really want though, is not to apportion blame upon your wife (as her defence suggests you have done), but to show that neither party was to blame. The traditional divorce court is probably not equipped to deal with what could basically amount to a change in the law; and this may be the only way to adequately defend your case, which I do think is sound if approached in the right way.

But as I said, your wife's defence to your cross petition does not read well, I can't see a regular divorce court deciding in your favour, or even ruling an "equal blame" situation.

I'm no expert, but I've been to court and it's not pretty. Did you suggest your wife was partly to blame in your cross petition? I think this is the crux of the matter. She wasn't to blame, and neither were you, but it appears she is now defending herself against your accusations that it was partly her fault. She'll probably win that argument in a regular divorce court.

Thanks Christine and Lucy. This is helping me to understand and clarify my position.

My solicitor took the view that by submitting only an answer to my wife's original position (see above) that it would risk the matter being settled by the magistrates court without a hearing. Given that we both are arguing that the marriage is over irreconcilably, my solicitor was of the opinion that a ruling would probably be made that our marraige was indeed over and that I was entirely to blame, without fully considering the matter of whether seeking treatment for transexualism demonstrates 'unreasonable behaviour'.

Submitting a cross petition (on the grounds that that my wife is now behaving unreasonably in asking the courts to end a marraige before she is legally entitled to do so in law) has at least permitted me to have the case heard in front of a judge, so in this respect I feel that I have achieved something, and that I will be able to have my say.

I am hopeful that I will be allowed to make the above arguments in court, i.e. 'to make a case that  being transgendered is an anomily under the divorce act regarding the 5 outcomes,and the entered examples that coming out as transgender is quoted and used as unreasonable behaviour , refering to the GRA in its original form 2005 and as ammended in 2010 and the subsequent revision to the marriage act, that being transgendered, a recognised medical condition and therefor should not be used as an example of unreasonable behaviour' ..... thank you so much for this. It's really useful.

Also, I been reading the Law Society guidelines on self-representation at court and they mention the use of McKenzie friends in court. Christine, is this something you would be interested in helping me with? I am presently waiting for the time and date of my hearing at Northampton Family Court. I would love a bit of support...and to be honest I'm a bit nervous about going alone, so please let me know if you are interested

Many thanks. I intend to use the next few weeks preparing my 'introduction to the bench' on this basis, which I will post up for comments.

Interestingly, in the US, according to the Diagnosis and Statistics Manual IV (DSM 5) transgenderism is no longer considered a disorder.  What used to be referred to as Gender Identity Disorder is now Gender Disporia.

It's been a while, but my divorce does seems to be progressing, albeit slowly. The courts are apparently a bit backlogged following Christmas, but I should hear something soon.

My wife has agreed to divorce on the basis of cross-petitions; i.e. that we both submit our petitions to the court at the same time, me arguing that my wife is acting unreasonably, and my wife arguing that I am acting unreasonalbly. It feels a bit Bizarre, but at least I get my say, and the upside is that as a joint petitioner, I am entitled to apply for a decree absoulte after the statutory 6weeks and a day following the issue of the decree nici - as opposed to the three months I would have to wait as the 'respondent'.

Even more Bizarrely, my wife has apparently been advised by her solicitor that she should not proceed to a decree absolute until the finances have been sorted out. After all this effort on my wife's part, this feels somewhat peculiar, so once the decree nici has been issued I am considering applying for the absoulte myself - if not simply to obtain an element of closure asap.

Apparently after recearching cross-petitions on the internet I discovered that Peter Andre and Katie Price also elected to divorce by cross petition! I'm expecting a phone call from Heat Magazine forthwith!

:) 

My solicitor recieved a certificate from the Courts notifying me that the pronouncement of the Decree Nici will happen on February 3rd (day before my birthday - strange kinda B'day present)....

The unreasonable transexual?. This is my opinion on this topic. Crissie and myself have spoken about this thread and Crissie knows my opinion.

So the poster of this thread thinks their behaviour is not unreasonable?. Well you married a women and you must have known before you took your wedding vows that you had a gender identity problem. You hid that and deceived your wife to be at the time and allowed her to say "I take this man to be my husband" . You then went on to father a child still knowing who you were (unless the child came first).

Your wife and son have left the marital home , you have not said why. So it could have been because they were ashamed of you or your behaviour and you could have made their lives unbearable , I am guessing here because this is all about you isn't it?.

I have to base this on others I have known who feel hard done by for their own mistakes. Crissie knows I will take the side of the wife and family because it is deception , you knew what you were doing.

Some say they try just get on with a normal life in the hope it will just go away , so they get married have children and then realise it will not go away "Foresight is a wonderful thing" it is just a shame some do not use it.

Sorry but your behaviour is unreasonable. Your main concern in what you have posted here is yourself! In other words it is pure selfishness on your part. Reading this from the outside as I have been you have not really said much about how your wife feels , I mean you drop a bomb shell on her like this and just expect her to except it?. Oh dear it has all gone wrong , you just wanted her to turn into a lesbian just to suit you. Sounds harsh I know but it is what you were expecting was'nt it?.

So it has all gone pear shapped and for whatever reason your wife and son have moved out and there you are in the marital home thinking it is not your fault and your wife is unreasonable.

Down to earth time "Your behaviour is unreasonable". If you cannot see that then the divorce court will.

There is one good thing that comes out of these stories and that is the younger generation can learn from your mistakes. They can learn that it is far better to sort out a gender identity problem before saying "I do" and then having children and messing others lives up. Very few of these stories have happy endings but a tiny minority can and do accept it but there is no written law to say they have to.

Now you just accept that you made a mistake and that others can learn from your mistake.

Again sorry for my opinion as it may sound harsh but you wife is human and she has feelings too and it is not all about you.

Take care and good luck.

Spell errors corrected at 8.42am GMT

This post was edited by Former Member at February 12, 2016 8:42 AM GMT

Thanks for your post Julia, I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to publish your thoughts on this matter; especially when it it something like this that is close to my heart.

Since comming out, I have heard similar comments from my close friends and colleagues. I do genuinely recognise the hurt and grief that I have caused to my family and closest friends by my honesty. But when was being honest ever legally considered to be 'unreasonable behaviour' ?

I intentionally posted my query on the transgender law section of this bulletin board.

I remain acutely aware of the hurt and distress I have caused to those closest to me, by admitting that my feelings were becoming unmanageble and that I had to take steps to resolve the issues I felt with my gender identity. In my opinion, the whole thing is 'unreasonable'. My ex-wife is entitled to feel angry, hurt and decieved, as you say. I just don't think admitting to being transgender should be considered by the legal system 'unreasonable behaviour' in and of itself.

The problem I felt was with how the law treated me, and which is why I posted my particular thread on the legal section of this board. I don't think that it is acceptable for the legal system to state that my behaviour was 'unreasonable' simply by informing my (then) wife that I felt more female than male, and that I wanted to talk to a doctor about my issues.

At the point when I told my wife that I believed that I was transgender, I had lived in role as a man and performed my role as husband, father and family man as best that I could. But it just wasn't me. When I told my wife that I could no longer behave in that way, my whole life fell apart. My 'behaviour' had not changed. I had not suddenly taken to wearing dresses or suchlike. I just admitted to my life-partner that I felt different to how I had been gendered. Once said, it's hard to take something like this back; and it's probably why I left it so long to tell people how I truly felt.

I understand why my wife felt like she did. She didn't sign up to being married to a 'queer'. And I knew when I told her how I felt that I could lose everything; which is exactly what happended.

I did not stop her from leaving. I recognise that our relationship fell apart. I just believe that there should be a kinder way of legally separating in this sort of case. Why does the legal system have to apportion blame, when all this appears to achieve is to classify me admitting to being transgender as being 'abnormal', and legally recognise that someone like me does not deserve to be married and/or entitled to a family life?

My wife did not want an annulment, which if following the cliche that 'I always knew that I was female' she was entitled to ask for. Instead she wanted to blame me for telling her that I felt more female than male. I have already spend over two years grieving from the breakdown of my marriage. I don't intend to continue beating myelf up about this.

I am alone, and have been since I came out (my CBT for anxiety and depression is really helping - thank you for asking). I have been ostrasised from the ones I love the most for being queer.

As far as your comments regarding youg transgender people, their suicide rates are still a massive concern to me. I doubt this will change, given the 'gayboy' comments still prevalent in school playgrounds today. 

Hi Alexandra.

The laws concerning your case and others in your situation are complicated and Crissie has made a very good job in explaining them as she always does , it makes my head hurt sometimes just figuring it all out. You are not alone in your situation as you must know , so many transgendered individuals do just as you done. I have asked personally to others faces why did you do it? You must have known it would all end in tears and lives would be ruined , most cannot come up with a reasonable answer. If you ask any adult transexual when did you realise you were assigned the wrong gender at birth the average answer is about 5 or 6 or 7 years old. I know from my own life experience how hard it is to deal with , I would say puberty was one of the hardest parts as hormones are playing silly games in the body. You just as others must have looked in the mirror at a young age confused with that reflection looking back at you. I know how that felt and I rebelled as I could not conform to what society was saying I should be. My rebelling caused me more problems than I could ever imagine and taught me a lot but this is not about me.

It may sound like it but I am not judging you , you would not want me as a judge in your divorce case yet I understand the pain we all go through. The problem I have is when that pain is put onto innocent people. You mentioned your honesty and I do not doubt your honesty but it came to late.

The lesson here is be honest from the start. Your story here will help others as when it is read it may just stop them making the same mistake not only you but others make too.

The only way I can compare the legal system to anything else is by saying to you would you go to the Gender Clinic and lie to them would you?. I would say you would not because you need their help but if the legal system asked you did you know you were transexual the day you married what would your answer be? It would be wrong to lie to the court. I know that you must have known you had a gender identity issue and so do you as it is not like an illness you catch overnight , you are born with it.

I did not ask about your depression and you beating yourself up about this as somewhere in this thread you mentioned a trip to Sparkle and your posts seem very well balanced , a severely depressed person would not make much sense but your posts are clear and precise. I am no specialist but whatever it is you are taking for your depression seems to be working which is good.

You did say you have sympathy for your wife but no amount of sympathy can turn back time , as you know the damage to her is done.

Yes I do have concerns for young transgender people and older ones too and I do all I can when I can to help others understand that being transgendered is as normal as being born black to a black person. Yes the suicide rates are a huge concern to me but things are getting better albeit far to slowly.We are lucky enough to have been born in what I consider to be the safest and most caring country for transgender people in the world. We were unlucky being in the wrong queue when bodies were being handed out but we have to live with it and it is hard work at certian times in our lives. I will not pretent I know the answers to the divorce laws , that is Crissie's department but I do know right from wrong.

I wish you all the best and when this is all over I hope your wife and you can move on. You could also consider asking your local education department if you could give some awareness talks or something like that so that others can learn direct from you. When you get through this you can find that helping others is very rewarding because you have been there and know what it is like. If you do or just one person reads this and they learnt that being honest with any potential wife or partner from the start is the only way to stop this happening then some good has come from this.

If any person who was diagnosed with cancer or any other serious illness and went on to marry someone without telling them that would be wrong , saying it is to hard to talk about as most transexuals do does not make it right. I look at things from all sides not just one and the legal system has to do the same. To some it seems unfair and in some cases it is but we have the best here in the UK , and that is just my opinion.

Take care .

This post was edited by Former Member at May 30, 2018 8:02 PM BST

I agree 100% Crissie that transexualism is not unreasonable behaviour , if it were then my whole life has been unreasonable. I also agree that compassion plays a huge part in cases like this one. You know me better than anyone on this website and you also know how much respect I have for you and all that you do and stand for. Your work amazes me and your desire to fullfill your career in law , you know that too.

 

A while back I posted what I witnessed at a meeting I was asked to attend. I did not want to go but I did and I am pleased I did because what I witnessed was an unreasonable transexual. I am not comparing this to what I witnessed but I will never forget that night. In short a transexual turns up with their wife and daughter and everything was fine until the transexual starts mouthing off telling their wife and daughter this is me and if you do not like it then pack your bags and go , that was unreasonable behaviour. I spent most of that evening comforting a 16 year old girl and her mother , they were both being mentally tormented not only daily at home but that night also in front of others.

As the transexual was only thinking of them self I had to do what I could to help the mother and daughter. Knowing they had a 20 mile journey home I made sure they were okay . I had spent over an hour comforting them outside away from everyone else. The transexual was not one bit concerned about the wife and daughter so I told the wife to take the car and both of you leave now. I told them to go home and lock the doors and put your husbands bags on the step and if you get any problems call me or the Police if you need to , so they left.

I went back in to the so called meeting and  no one even asked if they were okay , it was like they did not exist. When it was time for everyone to go then and only then did the husband ask where is my wife and daughter?. I broke the news that they had left for home over an hour ago and your statement that if you do not like move out it has now been reversed.

That is only a tiny part of what happened that night but I had to show compassion where it was needed at the time.

Surely every case is different and if you had witnessed what I did you would say you witnessed unreasonable behaviour , I know you would have because I know you to well as you do me.

What we need is more understanding and I know from people I have met not everyone is like the person I just mentioned which was cruel heartless and very unreasonable. Transexuals have a hard time I know that because I am one but it does not give any one of them the right to give their family's a hard time. If the marriage has broken down beyond repair then the cause should walk away and the divorce courts should treat them with the same respect as any other person.

Take care , Julia x

 

This post was edited by Former Member at February 13, 2016 7:31 PM GMT

I think I need to add to this just in case anyone thinks there is any condradiction in what I have posted which I stand by.

(1) Being transexual is not unreasonable behaviour. It is bloody hard work to gain acceptance in society and I consider myself lucky I have gained acceptance into that society but I had to work at it.

I have never married or fathered any children but I did lose my family and when I realised I was fighting a losing battle I walked away and that was not easy.

 

(2) This is where it gets complicated. When a transexual enters a marriage I am fairly sure most do know what they are doing. I am also fairly sure they know that entering a marriage will not change or give a miracle cure to being who they are.

 

(3) After the marriage if the transexual decides to tell their wife and any children that they intend to transition and the family cannot accept it and the marriage breaks down then the transexual should walk away. Walking away from the marriage in a friendly way where possible is obviously ideal but it will not always work that way.

It is perfectly understandable that the wife can or will feel deceived. It is my opinion that any divorce court should treat both parties with respect. Respect is different from blame but someone has to be the blame/cause. As the wife has done nothing wrong apart expecting her husband to be a man then the cause for the marriage breakdown is the transexuals. Is that unreasonble behaviour by the transexual?. Depending on personal circumstances of the couple that is for the court to decide. If the transexual has acted in ways causing distress or mental harm to the wife after breaking the news then that is unreasonble behaviour.

Without all of the facts of what went on no one else but the court can decide who is at fault. Both parties will get their say but at the end of the day I think we all know who's side the court will take , because the wife has done nothing wrong. I have never been in a divorve court but I would say that with the evidence provided a fair judgement will be made in the end.

Take care.

This post was edited by Former Member at February 15, 2016 5:36 PM GMT

Julia,
I've received an email which I think has already been deleted by the moderator for this forum. You are out of order. Unbeknownst to you my decreed absolute is due to be decide upon tommorrow. I have only posted onto this forum what I am comfortable with and no more. I appreciate your honesty, but please respect my openness. This is my life! I am truly grateful for any positive feedback, but you are just being offensive.
This post was edited by Alexandra Stone at March 16, 2016 11:04 PM GMT

Yes it was deleted and I expected it to be. I am pleased you appreciate my honesty because that is what it was. I would not call honesty offensive though.

 

Take a look at this http://youtu.be/92cwKCU8Z5c  and the look on Agnetha Faltskog's face. Look at her eyes it is not acting. The song was written about her divorce and her life was wrecked just as many other females are by dishonesty.

 

I forgot to add. If you watch the video and pay attention to Agnetha's face you will see her eye make up change. Although she has admitted this is her favourite song Abba recorded it was very hard for her to record the video , she was filming with her ex husband and still going through the pain of their break up. I stated she was not acting , she is not an actor and eyes tell a story on their own. She had her eye make up re done several times to create this short video and that was due to tears.

This post was edited by Former Member at April 14, 2016 9:57 PM BST

I gave this thread 5 stars but it deserves a lot more for the amount of work Crissie has put into it. Yes Crissie had a few Thank you's but in my opinion it is easy to type empty words. In my post which was deleted I stated that. I also used the words selfish and taking the piss , why? Because that is what I see. I am not going to lie for anyone and say anything different.

 

Again I thank you Crissie for all of your work , and you know I mean it x.

I need to say a few things about this thread. It was not my intention to bring it to a halt , even though in my opinion the original poster had no intention of becoming a part of this website. From begining to end it is easy to see this is just about themself.

 

Crissie (Cristine Shye) Has put so much work into this with very little thanks (I thank her). Her work is about the law side and my posts have been about the human side. Crissie is very human and has human emotions just as we all do but she has been 100% professional. As for me? I do not and have no need to be professional. I have concerns for the hurt caused by these situations , hurt that could have been avoided with some honesty from the start.

 

I knew from a very young age that my life was not just like anyone elses , I knew I was different and also found out that telling lies gets you no where in life. Yes me being honest about who I was got me into a lot of trouble when I was young but I could not hide what was on the inside , and I knew it was going to find a way out. I never married or fathered any children for that very reason. Yes I tried to have relationships but they all failed because I knew , or should I say felt it was wrong.

 

In my 20's I met a woman and something between us just clicked , that had not happened before. She was different than the others , she was I suppose what is known as a Tom Boy.

After we had been seeing each other for about a week I started to have feelings for her and I knew she had for me too. I had to make a decision and that was to tell her about me. I had to make that decision knowing I would most likely lose her. When I told her her first words were "I knew there was something different about you".

 

That week turned into 23 years , 23 Years of love and trust. Just over 12 years ago she died suddenly but she remains in my heart and I think of her everyday , I often have very real dreams about her.

I have no clue what would have happened if I had not told her but I told her because I knew I could not hide who I was and had no wish to. That is the human side. I did not want a relationship based on lies and deception and our 23 years were about being honest and that is what held us together.

 

She bought me a recording and the lyrics turned out to be true apart from the fact that she died. Please listen and you will understand https://youtu.be/SuWAGT9ZkYE

This is the one I bought for her https://youtu.be/Y65sHbLWNoU

 

Before anyone gets any ideas about deleting this post please read it again. If I am going to be picked on for being honest just remember my 23 years of honesty worked unlike what this thread is all about.

 

Take care xx

I was going to throw my sixpence worth into the fray but I've decided not to comment on this thread at all because I don't feel qualified to do so.  I did A Level Law back in the 1970s and I remember Carlill v Carbolic Smoke Ball Co and Donoghue v Stevenson but that's about all.

I think we're very lucky to have Crissie here because she really does know her stuff.

And whatever happened to Julia Ford?  Is anyone still in touch with her?

Hugs,

Katie