Forum » Gender Society Public Forums » General Forum » Gender Roles/Expression vs Gender Identity/Dysphoria

Gender Roles/Expression vs Gender Identity/Dysphoria

Tags : None
  • The exchange below I took from http://janetmock.com/2013/09/12/men-who-date-attracted-to-trans-women-stigma/ the comments section, although the exchange has nothing to do about dating and everything to do about explaining what it is to be trans.

    However, it is an outstanding, inspirational article by a trans woman when it comes to the world of dating cis men, having positive self-worth, and not being the "shameful secret." A must-read.

    I got sucked into the comments section and found a great exchange of thoughts and feelings, highly educational and informative and just had to share!

    Lee, a very analytical cis woman asks a question (I think she's confusing gender roles and expression vs gender identity and dysphoria), Jackie, a cis woman gives a pretty good explanation. Ellixis, a trans man gives the best explanation that gave me the chills! I can totally understand and get it. What do you think?
    ________________________________________

    
Lee
    September 28, 2013 at 9:25 pm 


    I want to begin by saying that this may come across as judgmental or something like that. But believe me when I say that I am not writing this out of any sort of malice or disrespect; I am writing because I am honestly curious; I know myself to be ignorant and genuinely want to understand better.
So I am speaking as a cis-gendered, heterosexual female. I was always brought up to judge people on their character, not based on anything like gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. etc. I truly am not just trying to sound pc here. Some of my best friends are gay, and I had this fascinating conversation about European history with a trans-woman I met once. My college has a comparatively large trans community – one of whom was the best chemistry TA EVER! and a trans-man who I will not deny, I found quite attractive. I did not pursue him because, well, I do not pursue ANYBODY. Because I’m a chump like that. Seriously. I’m WAY too shy for my own good. It’s pretty horrible.
All of that aside. I am very curious about the whole gender issue… I get really confused. I mean, I have never questioned my own gender, but I honestly believe that if I were born with man parts, I would be perfectly content living as a guy. I just am not sufficiently motivated to do so. Anyway, what I’m trying to get at is this: what does it mean to “feel like a woman” or “be a woman” born as a biological male? If it doesn’t matter who does what jobs or takes on which societal roles and responsibilities, why does gender matter at all?

    Thus, why would a person feel the need to change their gender? I hate cooking, I hate cleaning, and I love math and physics. I don’t want kids. The only particularly “girl” thing about me is that I enjoy showing off my boobs and/or doing my hair/makeup from time to time. But not very frequently. I mean, ok, I don’t like using the word woman at all. Maybe it’s the biologist in me, but I prefer the term “female.” From my perspective, the box I check on government forms, or on facebook, is a biological fact – not a statement about who I am as a person.
I concede that, coming from the out-group in this case, I can try to understand but I will probably never fully comprehend. But I wonder if we lived in a world where mothers encouraged their daughters to play football if they want to… to make model airplanes… to play with those little green army men… Or in converse, if more dads encouraged their son to dance ballet, write poetry, do whatever it is society tells girls to do… I wonder if we lived in that world, if maybe there would be fewer people who felt the need to surgically alter their physically manifested sex? (I want to be a surgeon when I finish med school, so it’s not like I’m against surgery on principle).
I apologize if this has offended anyone – I cannot stress enough that this was not meant as an attack on any group or individual. I am a scientist. I get intellectually curious about things that I do not fully understand.
Thank you, and have a lovely day.




    Jackie
    October 11, 2013 at 12:38 am
    Lee,
From how it has been described to me by many close transgender friends of mine, many trans people not only experience dysphoria due to societal norms based on gender, they experience a dysphoria about their bodies as well. Their mental “body map” (there is a term for it but it escapes me now) that tells them what parts of their body should be where doesn’t match the actual physicality of their body. So a transwoman isn’t just a male-bodied person who feels behaviorally/mentally they are a woman, they are a person who’s “body map” tells them when they look at their chest, they should have breasts or that when they look at their genitals there should be a vagina and not a penis. Also, there are many different levels of how a person who identifies as transgender wishes to change their body. Some only choose to take hormones and don’t wish to change their bodies surgically, others opt for surgery without hormones, and still others present themselves as their preferred gender through wardrobe/behavior. It is all acceptable and completely up to the individual. I went into a lot more detail there, but as far as your question goes, that at least how I understand it is why many desire a surgery option.

    Ellixis
    October 3, 2014 at 3:39 pm
    I am a trans man. I’m going to take a shot at answering your question.
    My parents didn’t force or even really push me to be “girly” as a child; I chose swimming classes over ballet, didn’t wear dresses most of the time, and played with toy cars and trucks as much as I played with dolls or stuffed animals. When playing pretend with my friends, I was the dad when we played house and the prince when we played princesses. It didn’t seem significant to me then, and I didn’t object to being considered a tomboy.

    Just before puberty and when puberty began was when it started being problematic for me. I knew that I didn’t really feel like a girl, but since I had no awareness of the concept of being transgender and no idea that this wasn’t the way most girls felt, I assumed that this was normal. I thought that as puberty progressed, I’d start feeling like a girl. I looked forward to it, because even though I wasn’t made to act or dress girly, I still felt a subtle discord and discomfort with the idea of myself and my body, and I had a vague awareness that this had to do with my gender. However, instead of feeling more comfortable as my body shape altered and I grew breasts, I felt steadily less comfortable. It felt wrong, and I didn’t know why or even really how.

    I’ve tried various approaches to dealing with my gender over the course of my life. I’ve tried dressing and acting in a more feminine way, and I’ve tried dressing and acting as an androgynous or masculine woman. It still doesn’t feel right, even all the way over on the butch end of the spectrum. I’ve never felt good about calling myself a woman or being referred to as “she.” The discomfort with my body has grown slowly worse as I’ve gotten older. I couldn’t tell you why, but that’s how it is.

    The best metaphor I’ve come up with for the way my body dysphoria feels is this:

    Imagine that you’re wearing a pair of pants one size too small. Imagine the way the pants pinch your waist, bind your thighs, and ride up at your ankles. It’s a relatively minor discomfort, and it probably doesn’t look too bad. If you don’t have another pair of pants to wear, you can deal with it. It’s workable, even if you’re not really comfortable.

    Most of the time, as you go about your day wearing the wrong size pants, you’ll be able to ignore how it feels. You’ve got other things to think about, more important stuff to deal with. But the discomfort is always quietly there as background noise. If you have a minute in which you don’t have anything else to do, your discomfort with the badly-fitting pants might come back up to the top of your mind, and you’ll think about how you’d really rather have a pair of pants that fits you and wish you were home so you could change.

    Now — take that feeling that you’re imagining, and imagine that instead of your pants not fitting, it’s your body that doesn’t fit. It’s a mental feeling instead of a physical one, but at least in my case, it’s a similar “sensation.” My body is the wrong shape, and I am not comfortable in it. I don’t like to look at it or be aware of it, and I’d rather change it so it fits my internal experience of how I should feel.

    This isn’t necessarily representative of all trans people’s experience, but I hope it helps you understand a little better as to why I can’t just be a masculine woman, why instead I need to be a trans man. This post was edited by Former Member at June 9, 2016 8:40 PM BST
      June 9, 2016 8:29 PM BST
    0
  • Interesting analogy for the transmans perspective . Tho in my case generally i dnt feel i was born in the wrong body ( i know he doesnt say that but i do hear these word alot coming from cis people when discovering im trans )
    On the whole i was born with the right body but wrong part, i mean im 5ft8 which aint tall but isnt short either i have quiet broad shoulders ( for female) and about average for a man.
    Obviously i was cursed/blessed ( however which way u want to look at it ) with a big chest that my mother and sister are jealous off n would proudly own. So born in correct body(frame, size etc) wrong parts
    Although i occasionally get hit with body disphoria i try not to look at it with a negative because you dnt really know who u could upset ( not transphobic sort of way) for example i used to refere to my breast as non cancerous tumours waiting to be removed and there is a transwomen you would love nothing more then natural breast so im still waiting for the day to happen but for me thi
      June 9, 2016 10:19 PM BST
    0
  • Yes you have the height and broad shoulders of a man but the wrong parts, good way to put it. I've heard somewhere that the "trapped in the wrong body" analogy is outdated/not very accurate...

    I'm a cis woman who had a non-existent chest (I don't know why, my mom always had big ones...well I do know why, I had higher than normal T growing up...acne, oily skin, and no breasts, etc) and so I got breast implants at 25, almost 26 y/o. Your comment doesn't offend me (maybe because I've got a nice artificial pair now!) but yes you never know how your words can be taken. You've got a good attitude about it all! Does thi shrink them? That would be nice. Do you live in the UK, if so, can you get top surgery free of cost? I know a lot of trans people suffering in the US because they have to pay high prices for everything and can't afford...
      June 9, 2016 10:42 PM BST
    0
  • Im british but i live in Malta. Started my transition nearly 2 yrs in sept. As for my anaolgy i was being a dick and was talking ti a (trans) women but i had no clue. She was at the time pre op n me being pre op i was b*itching about my tits basically and after telling me a few times ( in a conversational way) about things i hate about my self to someone else im extremely lucky ( not just trans related but another time i was saying i cnt wait to have top surgery n some one at work who understands about my situation feels kinda stuck as her mother is is the healing process of havin had her breast removed) but i found that there was more things i didnt like about my body when i used to identify as female. Baggy breast due to poor choices of bra when younger and running without proper support, big feet , extremley difficult to find shoes out in malta my size, tall but have short legs and long torso ao womens cloths especially tops left my with my gut constantly out . Dnt have that problem any more male tops for some reason tend to be longer, wide ahoulders etc all these things used to bother me but now apart from the chest any thing i dnt like ie being fat or being more muscular its all down to me now . My breast didnt really get any smaller prob went down a cup size but have gained some back muscle so cnt really tell, but have been on T 9 months so who knows if there is more shrinkage to be done :P
    Sorry for the essay :/
      June 10, 2016 12:48 AM BST
    0
  • Top surgery is some thing i have to pay for over here is quite costly but no other option ryt now so saving hopefully can get surger early 2018
      June 10, 2016 12:50 AM BST
    0
  • You're body shape and size is totally male and the fact you fit in men's clothes better than women's says something! Thank goodness you're not my size--five ft ZERO! Do I wish I was taller? I used to (because I wanted to be a model) but now I'm 41 so I don't care anymore! It is what it is. I know what you mean about it being all down to you now... I gained 8 pounds since Christmas AND I'm trying to build even more muscle, but of course it'll never look like your muscles, I don't want to look manly ;) I've been quite lazy but recently started working out and cutting calories and lost 3 pounds so far! Good luck and I hope you can save up for surgery...2018 will be here in no time...when I think about Christmas I can't believe it was six months ago! This post was edited by Former Member at June 10, 2016 2:44 PM BST
      June 10, 2016 2:42 PM BST
    0
  • Oh man when u put it like that 6 months till xmas lol. Thanks any way was interesting topic and conversation
      June 11, 2016 12:09 AM BST
    0
  • Lovely GG Lisa - I really loved Ellixis' explanation of being trans! :) I can relate to a lot of it. That discomfort he talked about always popping up in the back of your mind I know all too well. Reminds me of whenever I'm going about my day and someone calls me "Miss" or if I'm in a group, "You ladies" I suddenly want to yell, but know I can't and it isn't that person's fault for not knowing. I'm also glad he brought up playing house and with dolls.. I hear a lot of FTM saying they never played with dolls, but I just always played as the dad lol. It's similar to how I play simulation games like The Sims now. I can play as a cis male and nobody knows I'm trans. It's make believe and a fantasy life.

      June 11, 2016 2:45 AM BST
    0
  • You're welcome, Samual, thank you for taking the time out to reply and give your perspective! Much appreciated.

    Kris, very succinct yet you stated everything perfectly... I wish you didn't get called Miss or lady, etc, but you handle it so well. Funny thing about dolls is that as a cis girl I was never into playing with dolls. I never once played mommy...perhaps that's one of the contributing factors as to why I never desired having children, even now at the age of 41. I was mildly interested in Barbies (occasionally played with them because it was what was bought for me), but my favorite toys were My Little Ponies...they were invented when I was in grade school! I begged my mom for them when they first came out. I was a bit of a tomboy, with two older brothers, I wanted to do what they did, skateboard, ride bikes, climb things, hike, camp, etc.

    Also there is a trans lady member here who is into typically male sports like triathlons and such. Kaitlyn Jenner still loves golf and off road truck adventures. I joined the army at 19 and never felt I was a man, ever, even though I was entering a man's job. And you Kris, played with dolls even though you were a trans boy.

    So in the end, when it comes to being trans or cis, I think it's not quite about gender roles/expression (toys, hobbies, activities, clothes, jobs, likes and dislikes, etc) but about that innate feeling that comes from the mind, spirit, and soul...gender identity!
      June 13, 2016 5:12 PM BST
    0
  • Lovely GG Lisa - Lol, honestly as a writer I should probably try to be more descriptive in general, but I do tend to keep things short and to the point. Have been told I have a blunt writing style. I think one reason I didn't see playing with dolls as a "girl thing" as a kid is because gender just wasn't even on my mind as a child. I'm not sure if it was because of my Asperger's or what, but I aged/matured quite slowly. (A little embarrassing, but true). To this day my mom tries to say my dad is the reason I have gender dysphoria, but I disagree. Yes, I wanted to be just like him, but I also just never felt right as a girl. I can also remember watching cartoons/movies and putting myself in the guy's place instead of the girls. 

    Also, I try to handle being called "Miss" as nicely as possible, but there are definitely times you can physically tell it upset me. I can remember a few times where someone has said "Have a good night, ladies" and I just froze dead on my tracks for a few seconds then kept walking. Felt like a stab even though, as I said, I always just tell myself they have no way of knowing.

      June 13, 2016 5:55 PM BST
    0
  • Yeah, I disagree too, I'm no expert nor have I experienced it, but don't think anyone can blame anyone else for gender dysphoria. Seems like gender identity is an innate thing since birth, even before birth in the womb.

    I also never thought much about gender as a really young child...until I was 6 years old and a bad incident regarding gender happened in kindergarten...and eventually as a young child, I thought I was born with both genetalia (intersex) but had the male part cut off at birth, until I got older and realized it was because of that confusing incident. If you're curious--Kris and anyone else--read on at your own risk hahaha! http://gendersociety.com/forums/topic/10226/it-s-too-confusing-it-s-just-a-phase
      June 13, 2016 6:14 PM BST
    0
  • Lovely GG Lisa - Read your story and was reminded of a few things from my own childhood. I do believe I must have been born believing in things being gender neutral (even though I didn't call it that) since I thought playing with dolls was no big deal for a boy. However, I do remember in kindergarten I ALWAYS wanted to be on the boys team no matter what on everything. And when we played tag girls vs boys, I chased the girls etc. I don't think I really aknowledged that it was a gender thing at the time though. It wasn't problematic until 6th grade or so for me. I agree that kids are 100% capable of understanding trans issues though. Of course if a child starts saying they feel like the opposite gender, I wouldn't rush them into getting the sex change either because it is a big step and decision. Have to be 100% sure for that in my opinion.

      June 13, 2016 6:53 PM BST
    0