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  • A question re spiro which reduces BP. My BP is 120/60 (taken by doc today) If I was prescribed spiro that would put my BP in the low range. The question is how low does spiro reduce BP ? Would a low dosage of spiro suffice as my T is low ?
    I should have asked the doc but forgot as I was too pleased thinking of the results of my blood test which incidently were excellent.
    <p>ooxxoo</p>
      January 20, 2007 1:44 AM GMT
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  • Moderator
    3 1652 3‚ 0
    Hmmm, your diastolic is slightly low, normal would be around 120 over 80.
    I’ve no idea if or how far Spiro would reduce that further, it’s certainly something you should check with your doc before using it. It is used to treat hypertension, but might be reasonably safe for you in a low dose, however…
    If your testo is low then don’t take something you don’t need. How low is it?
    Did you get any other levels checked?
    xx
      January 20, 2007 2:38 AM GMT
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  • Lucy

    I have only been on patches for 3 months, previously herbs (evanesce). I understand that feminization does not start until T is down to a reasonable level. As there has been some breast development I am assuming that the herbs did bring the T down. No I did not ask the doctor my levels as its only 3 months since he started prescribing.
    <p>ooxxoo</p>
      January 20, 2007 6:33 PM GMT
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  • Lucy/Eileen

    Thanks for your advice

    Love
    Joanne
    <p>ooxxoo</p>
      January 20, 2007 10:01 PM GMT
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  • 134
    Hi Joanne, I found Spiro didnt do much for me (i was on 200Mg/day) maybe not high enough? It just made me pee a lot!
    But taking ethinyl estradiol (1.5Mg) & Cyproterone acetate (8Mg) daily has my T levels down to 1.5 (uk measures) GG should have 2.5 average, male between 13.5 & 30.
    Im not sure numbers mean all that much as everyone is so different, if you feel a certain drug is working for you, stick with it. Ive learned that! & my results speak for themselves!
    The only numbers Im interested in are my bust!!
    Angel xx
    angel
      January 27, 2007 11:07 AM GMT
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  • I am still undecided re a substitute for spiro. Maybe I should just leave it for now. I have also been advised to try calutide (quarter tablet daily) which compares with the price of equivalent spiro

    Joanne
    <p>ooxxoo</p>
      January 28, 2007 3:01 AM GMT
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  • My testosterone level was checked in 2003 after 4 months of daily 100mg spiro and the level was below the lower limit for females (below 0,5). Maybe my starting level was already low, I don´t know.

    Laura
      October 14, 2007 10:43 AM BST
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  • I seem to have posted twice - the final version of my post is the one below.
    Amber Goth a.k.a. Kate Lesley general dogsbody FFG Transgender Fiction Publishers http://www.tgfiction.co.uk/ http://www.tvfiction.com/
      October 25, 2008 7:01 PM BST
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  • Here is my six pennyworth about blood pressure etc.

    My B.P. was 150/90 about a month ago.

    I am supposed to be losing a bit of weight to get it down - if I can manage this in 6 months, then my (male) G.P. says I won't need to go on any B.P. medication.

    When I went to get my B.P. checked last week, I had lost 1 and a half kilos but my B.P. was 150/110 - the diastolic had gone up!

    I am now going to a female G.P. in the same practice, with whom I discussed my transgenderism - although I have been 'out' on the U.K. tranny scene for over 25 years, this was the first time I had 'come out' to the medical profession.

    I thought it wise to do so in view of my elevated B.P. and the fact that for the last 7 months I have been 'self-meddling' by taking 2 mg of Progynova daily, and Provera 5 mg for the first 10 days of each month.

    I just couldn't bring myself to discuss my transgenderism with the male G.P., but found it easy with his female colleague.

    I discussed the possibility of also taking Spiro and Finasteride with her, as both might be useful for their anti-androgenic qualities. I also discussed my prostate problems which I have had for the last several years (I have all the symptoms of BHP.) I had the prostate PSA test last week, to provide a base-line before I take any Finasteride.

    I am planning to start off with just 1 mg per day of Finpecia (generic Propecia or Finasteride 1mg), to promote scalp hair growth, as I am thinning slightly at the front. 5 mg (Proscar) is usually thre prescribed dose for BHP, so 1 mg isn't going to do me any harm re. the prostate, and might even help.

    I tried Spironolactone 100 mg for 6 months 2-3 years ago but stopped it as it didn't agree with me (I won't go into specifics - but I am married and my partner did not like what is was doing).

    Yesterday and today I tried again by starting with a much lower dose of 25 mg of Spiro last night and another 25 mg this morning, and it seemed to make me feel decidely headachy and queasy in the stomach, although I may also have felt rough because I didn't get much sleep last night, having spent half the night on the internet reading up about the various medications!

    I think for the time being I am not going to take any Spiro, unless the G.P. suggests it to lower my B.P. (So if anyone wants 300 Spironolactone 25 mg tabs with a use-by date of 2011, I may have some going cheap!)

    My current hormone regimen is 2 mg per day of Progynova taken orally, but I am going shortly to change this to 2 mg Estrofem taken sub-lingually.

    After 7 months on this relatively low hormone dosage, I have got some pleasing breast development and have quite a noticeable cleavage in a 38B gel bra. As has been remarked frequently, the amount of estrogen one needs to get results seems to vary greatly - I know 6-8 mg of oestradiol is often cited as a usual pre-operative dosage - but I seem to be doing okay on just 2 mg. My body just laps it up!

    I am wondering however whether to up my dosage of estradiol to 4 mg per day?

    When I investigated both prostate treatments and B.P. medication, it was kind of serendipity to find that there appears to be a surprising convergence of the same medications for lowering B.P. and treating prostate problems as are helpful in a feminising hormone regimen.

    I seem to have gone on a bit longer than I intended - would be interested in anyone's comments on any of the above.
    Amber Goth a.k.a. Kate Lesley general dogsbody FFG Transgender Fiction Publishers http://www.tgfiction.co.uk/ http://www.tvfiction.com/
      October 25, 2008 7:08 PM BST
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  • I'm not sure I like what you are doing if you are saying spiro does not agree with you because of your wife. That means taking spiro caused you to stop having erections, amazing since that is why we take it. As for stomach issues usually you need to offset the potassium build up with sodium and the doc should inform you about that. Your number one priority should be to get your blood pressure under control. Hormones won't do you any good if you are dead. Welcome to self-med 101.
    hugs,
    Marsha

      October 25, 2008 11:08 PM BST
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  • Moderator
    3 1652 3‚ 0
    Amber, you’re getting good results from a low dose of a safe hormone, Spiro doesn’t agree with you in more ways than one, and it is considerably less safe than estradiol. You don’t need it, don’t take it, unless your GP prescribes it for your BP. Finasteride is a good idea both for prostate problems and for halting/slowing receding hair. Don’t expect miracles though, it quite probably won’t make lost hair grow back. 1mg is more than adequate for hair trouble, your doctor will advise you on dosage appropriate for prostrate trouble.
    I’m curious as to why you are trying to feminise your body. Do you plan to transition? If your partner had issues with you using Spiro doesn’t she have a problem with you taking oestrogen?!
    Rest assured, long term use of hormones will seriously affect your sex life. Oestrogen lowers testosterone. Don’t think that by not taking an anti-androgen you will maintain your virility.
    xx
      October 26, 2008 5:29 PM GMT
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  • Hi Lucy,

    Thank you for your response.

    I started trying to write a reply to your questions, but discovered I was going on for so long that I decided to add it all to my blog as a separate posting:
    http://ambergoth.wordpres[...]ow-etc/ - so the full reply is there!

    Let me know if you want me to attempt to summarise this in a few lines (I don't think I can!)

    Kind regards,

    Katie x x x (or Amber)
    Amber Goth a.k.a. Kate Lesley general dogsbody FFG Transgender Fiction Publishers http://www.tgfiction.co.uk/ http://www.tvfiction.com/
      November 3, 2008 4:41 PM GMT
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  • Hi Marsha,

    I've written a reply to Lucy, as she raised similar points to you. It turned into such a long piece that I thought it was better to put it on my blog rather than here:
    http://ambergoth.wordpres[...]ow-etc/

    Basically, what it boils down to in reply to your specific questions is this:

    I think taking Spiro (at the 100 - 200 mg per day level) did stop me having erections, but it was several years ago when I took them, and it was for a period of about six months. But it might have been something else that affected me that way.

    Yes, I can confirm that my wife enjoys having sex with me where I am performing in that respect as a male, atlhough we do also do other things (I'll say no more, as this is getting a bit personal!.)

    I don't think my wife would mind me saying that she has discovered that she has lesbian tendencies and she also has quite a strong masculine side which she likes to express in various ways sometimes (I will show her this posting and she will probably hit me...)

    But for a full reply of where I am and what I think about all these issues, please see my blog:
    http://ambergoth.wordpress.com/

    Kind regards,
    Amber Goth a.k.a. Kate Lesley general dogsbody FFG Transgender Fiction Publishers http://www.tgfiction.co.uk/ http://www.tvfiction.com/
      November 3, 2008 4:52 PM GMT
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  • Further to what I have written on my blog, I really don't like my current 'Transvestite/Crossdresser' designation on TrannyWeb - I was looking at nhow to change this, but couldn't see how to do it.

    How do I change it?
    Amber Goth a.k.a. Kate Lesley general dogsbody FFG Transgender Fiction Publishers http://www.tgfiction.co.uk/ http://www.tvfiction.com/
      November 3, 2008 4:55 PM GMT
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  • To change it just send Katie an email requesting that it be changed. [email protected]

    After reading your blog I question why change it. My understanding is you see yourself transgendered yet not transsexual. You don't sound like you consider yourself a woman or have any expectations of living fulltime as a woman. Therefore personally I think the CD/TV designation is appropriate. My opinion.

    Hugs,
    Marsha
      November 3, 2008 9:02 PM GMT
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  • Lucy, I very much agree with everything you say in response to my postings both on this thread and the Progynova versus Estofem one I started.

    My. G.P. warned me that Spironolactone was fairly toxic and shouldn't be taken unless specifically prescribed for a medical condition, such as a heart condition, etc.

    I think maybe the American transgender websites (such as http://www.transgendercare.com/) tend to be a bit overly keen on recommending Spiro as a necessary part of a feminising drug regimen. But our U.S. sisters might disagree. (Hope Barack Obama gets in, by the way.)

    And thanks also to Marsha for her imput - it's good to get different perspectives on these issues.

    x x x Katie
    Amber Goth a.k.a. Kate Lesley general dogsbody FFG Transgender Fiction Publishers http://www.tgfiction.co.uk/ http://www.tvfiction.com/
      November 3, 2008 9:03 PM GMT
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  • Thanks for that, Marsha.

    I'm not sure what you mean about 'considering myself as a woman'.

    When I am dressed as a woman, I see myself as a woman. Obviously I don't seem myself as a woman all the time, but my desire to function socially and be accepted as a woman most of the time is getting stronger, and I recognise that. I haven't indicated whether or not I see myself ever living as a woman full time. Maybe I do, maybe I don't. (I can tell you that even if I had SRS, I would probably occasionally dress as a boy just to be contrary - because I'm like that!)

    I guess I want the best of both worlds, and I actually can't see why that is impossible. Perhaps that's naive, but there you go. Too much Monty Python in my youth, probably.

    I don't like being designated as a 'CD/TV' any more as that's not how I see myself, and I think those expressions are very limiting.

    I am also suspicious of the whole way that transgendered people are 'diagnosed' by the medico-psychological professions who believe themselves to be the experts on transgenderism. I think our understanding of TGism is about at the stage that the barber-surgeons of the 18th century were at as regards conventional medicine, if I can make that analogy.

    In other words, the so-called experts may well be wrong; their 'treatments' as regards SRS etc. may also be wrong, at least for some people. Certainly that great early pioneer of how to 'treat' transgendered people, Dr. Harry Benjamin, has been proved to have been misguided in some instances. The famous case of the male twins who were circumcised is an example of this - something went wrong, and one twin had his penis accidentally cut off - Dr. Benjamin then decided he should be raised as a girl, with disatrous consequences for the individual concerned, who as an adult chose to return to the male gender.

    SRS may not be the inevitable end point for all transgendered people - be they transsexuals or not - and I am not sure even whether the term 'transsexual' is any more helpful than 'transvestite' or 'crossdresser'. Transsexuals are cross-dressers, at least while they are pre-operative, as the term 'cross-dresser' is simply a neutral description of behaviour. The term 'transgendered' on the other hand recognising the distinction between gender, a social and psychological construct, and biological sex, which is a physiological reality.

    I don't see gender identity as an 'either/or' - I think 'male' and 'female' and 'masculine' and 'feminine' are simplistic psycho-social constructs over emphasized by the three great monotheistic or Abrahamic religions, as a means reinforcing prejudice and justifying the control of one biological sex over the other. As an agnostic humanist, I don't care for any of the fundamentalist manifestations of Islam, Christianity or Islam.

    Some societies and cultures have never fully subscibed to the bi-polar notion of sex and gender, and have room for a 'third sex' - North American Indians recognise the 'squaw man' as a valued menber of their community; in Thai culture there are the Kathoi or 'Ladyboys'; and more recently in our western society being a 'she-male' seems to be growing in acceptability and popularity as a social gender role option.

    On the subject of Ladyboys, we saw a wonderful cabaret of 'The Ladyboys of Bankok' which fortuiously visited my home town last week, so we were privileged to enjoy the performances of some of the most beautiful 'transvestites' in the world.

    The brochure we bought about the Ladyboy cabaret described them as 'tranvestites' and referred to them as 'Mr - ' but I would guess this was for the benefit of the general public, who may not have come across Ladyboys before. The female pronouns 'she' and 'her' would inevitably be used within the troupe (I would guess) to denote the Ladyboy members (as there were also four 'male' members of the group.)

    The Ladyboys had well-formed breasts, wide hips, narrow waists, very slim builds and very beautiful feminine faces. They looked much more like women than many self-identifying 'transsexuals' I have met.

    To me and probably the rest of the audience they looked like lovely women - but yes, I understand they still also had their male parts down below.

    To you they would probably be 'transvestites', but I saw them as very feminine and beautiful women.

    What, exactly, is a 'woman'? Now there's a question! (See Simone de Beauvoir's 'Second Sex' and the feminist writings of the 1960's and 70's.)

    if we have to use limiting gender designations, Ladyboys could best be described as 'TG girls' or 'transgendered women' - I can't see them as 'transvestites' - they are much more than that in their gender identity.

    I don't think we agree on what makes a 'woman' or a 'man' - because I think it has very little to do with what you have between your legs, but everything to do with how you feel inside, how you express your personal psychological 'gender' attributes socially, and perhaps more important than anything - how others view you.

    So in my book it is perfectly possible to be a 'woman' with a penis, or a 'man' with a vagina - and there are plenty of examples.

    I appreciate that I am probably challenging some entrenched views among the TG community - but there you go - if we don't challenge these stereotypes and definitions, we are never going to progress as a species beyond them.

    To be governed in one's behaviour by conventional male/female/masculine/feminine stereotypes is very limiting and it is a shame that so many so-called 'normal' or 'straight' people are so controlled in how they are able to express themselves.

    I see no point in giving up one straight-jacketing stereotype (as a conventional 'man') simply to don another, as a conventional 'woman'.)

    I am transgendered - yes, but I refuse the designation 'transvestite' or 'cross-dresser', and I am not ready to take on and adopt the term 'transsexual' to describe myself.

    I rejoice in my transgenderism, I regard it as a gift, and I wouldn't be any other way, unless it was to have been born a biological (genetic XX chromosome) female. I guess that would have been my first choice - but being a TG girl isn't too bad as a second choice. I would hate to be a 'straight' male - it must be ghastly.

    To sum up, I would suggest there is much more to gender identity than that which is believed by conventional society - and the transgender community is itself a work in progress and shouldn't be circumscibed by these conventional definitions.

    As we find out more about ourselves, we can educate society as a whole - and ourselves - but it would be a pity if we were constrained by the traditional views of what constitutes a 'woman' or a 'man' .

    The current prevailing orthodoxy, originating, as I have suggested above, from the bigoted, repressive, misogynistic and patriarchal views promulgated by the Abrahamic religions, does not have to be the last word on the subject.

    So there you go. You don't know me, Marsha, and you are in no position to inform me that I am a TV/CD. I possibly know at least as much about gender identity as you, having written a Masters degree dissertation on the subject, so I'll decide what I am!

    (I hope we can be friends, even if we have differing views on gender identity.)

    Hugs x x x

    x x x Katie (Amber)
    Amber Goth a.k.a. Kate Lesley general dogsbody FFG Transgender Fiction Publishers http://www.tgfiction.co.uk/ http://www.tvfiction.com/
      November 3, 2008 10:00 PM GMT
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  • Marsha, I can't seem to leave this subject alone.

    Here below is a much longer response to your points, which I have also added to my weblog:http://(http://ambergoth.[...]s.com/)

    I have suggested to Katie that maybe this post and the previous couple may need to be posted to a more general thread than the Spiro one, as they may be is of interest to the TrannyWeb membership at large:

    Gender identity and the three great monotheistic (Abrahamic) religions

    So do I consider myself a ‘woman’ or a ‘man’? And what does religion say about gender identity?

    When I am dressed as a woman, I see myself as a woman. Obviously I don’t view myself as a woman all the time, but my desire to function socially and be accepted as a woman most of the time is getting stronger, and I recognise that. I haven’t indicated whether or not I see myself ever living as a woman full time. Maybe I do, maybe I don’t. (I can tell you that even if I had SRS, I would probably occasionally dress as a boy just to be contrary - because I’m like that!)

    I guess I want the best of both worlds, and I actually can’t see why that is impossible. Perhaps that’s naive, but there you go. Too much Monty Python in my youth, probably.

    I don’t like being designated as a ‘CD/TV’ any more as that’s not how I see myself, and I think those expressions are very limiting.

    I am also suspicious of the whole way that transgendered people are ‘diagnosed’ by the medico-psychological professions who believe themselves to be the experts on transgenderism. I think our understanding of TGism is about at the stage that the barber-surgeons of the 18th century were at as regards conventional medicine, if I can make that analogy.

    In other words, the so-called experts may well be wrong; their ‘treatments’ as regards SRS etc. may also be wrong, at least for some people. Certainly that great early pioneer of how to ‘treat’ transgendered people medically, Dr. Harry Benjamin, has been proved to have been misguided in some instances. The famous case of the male twins who were circumcised is an example of this - something went wrong, and one twin had his penis accidentally cut off by the rabbi - Dr. Benjamin then decided he should be raised as a girl, with disastrous consequences for the individual concerned, who as an adult chose to revert to the male gender.

    SRS may not be the inevitable end point for all transgendered people - be they transsexuals or not - and I am not sure even whether the term ‘transsexual’ is any more helpful than ‘transvestite’ or ‘crossdresser’.

    Transsexuals are cross-dressers or transvestites, at least while they are pre-operative, as the terms ‘cross-dresser’ and ‘transvestite’ are properly merely nouns denoting a neutral description of behaviour. The term ‘transgendered’ on the other hand recognises the distinction between gender, a social and psychological construct, and biological sex, which is a physiological reality.

    I don’t see gender identity as an ‘either/or’ - I think ‘man’ and ‘woman’ and ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ are simplistic psycho-social constructs over emphasized by the three great monotheistic or Abrahamic religions, as a means of reinforcing prejudice and justifying the control of one biological sex over the other. As an agnostic humanist, I don’t care for any of the fundamentalist manifestations of Islam, Christianity or Judaism.

    Some societies and cultures have never fully subscribed to the bi-polar notion of sex and gender, and have room for a ‘third sex’ - North American Indians recognise the ’squaw man’ as a valued member of their community; in Thai culture there are the Kathoi or ‘Ladyboys’; and more recently in our western society being a ’she-male’ seems to be growing in acceptability and popularity as a social gender role option.

    On the subject of Ladyboys, we saw a wonderful cabaret of ‘The Ladyboys of Bankok’ which fortuitously visited my home town of Chesterfield (Derbyshire, UK) last week, so we were privileged to enjoy the performances of some of the most beautiful ‘transvestites’ in the world.

    The brochure we bought before the show about the Ladyboy cabaret described them as ‘tranvestites’ and referred to them as ‘Mr - ‘ but I would guess this was for the benefit of the general public, who may not have come across Ladyboys before. The female pronouns ’she’ and ‘her’ would inevitably be used within the troupe (I would guess) to denote the Ladyboy members, as there were also four distinctly male members of the group.

    The Ladyboys had well-formed breasts, wide hips, narrow waists, very slim builds and very beautiful feminine faces. They looked much more like women than many self-identifying ‘transsexuals’ I have met.

    To me and probably the rest of the audience they looked like lovely women - but yes, I understand they still also had their male parts down below. Some would probably see the Ladyboys as ‘transvestites’, but I saw them as very feminine and beautiful women.

    What, exactly, is a ‘woman’? Now there’s a question! (See Simone de Beauvoir’s ‘Second Sex’ and the Feminist writings of the 1960’s and 70’s.)

    If we have to use limiting gender designations, Ladyboys could best be described as ‘TG girls’ or ‘transgendered women’ - I can’t see them as ‘transvestites’ - they are much more than that in their full social gender identity as women.

    What makes a ‘woman’ or a ‘man’? I think it has very little to do with what you have between your legs, but everything to do with how you feel inside, how you express your personal psychological ‘gender’ attributes socially, and perhaps more important than anything - how others view you.

    So in my book it is perfectly possible to be a ‘woman’ with a penis, or a ‘man’ with a vagina - and there are plenty of examples.

    I appreciate that I am probably challenging some entrenched views among the TG community as well as ’straight’ society - but there you go - if we don’t challenge these stereotypes and definitions, we are never going to progress as a species beyond them.

    To be governed in one’s behaviour by conventional male/female/masculine/feminine stereotypes is very limiting and it is a shame that so many so-called ‘normal’ or ’straight’ people are so controlled in how they are able to express themselves gneder-wise.

    I see no point in giving up one straight-jacketing stereotype (as a conventional ‘man’) simply to don another, as a conventional ‘woman’.)

    I am transgendered - yes, but I refuse the designation ‘transvestite’ or ‘cross-dresser’, and I am not ready to take on and adopt the term ‘transsexual’ to describe myself.

    I rejoice in my transgenderism, I regard it as a gift, and I wouldn’t be any other way, unless it was to have been born a biological (genetic XX chromosome) female. I guess that would have been my first choice - but being a TG girl isn’t too bad as a second choice. I would hate to be a ’straight’ male - it must be ghastly.

    To sum up, I would suggest there is much more to gender identity than that which is believed by conventional society - and the transgender community is itself a work in progress and shouldn’t be circumscribed by these conventional definitions.

    As we find out more about ourselves as trangendered people, we can educate society as a whole - and ourselves - but it would be a pity if we were constrained by the traditional views of what constitutes a ‘woman’ or a ‘man’ .

    The current prevailing orthodoxy, originating, as I have suggested above, from the bigoted, repressive, misogynistic and patriarchal views promulgated by the Abrahamic religions, does not have to be the last word on the subject.

    So there you go.

    Hugs x x


    Amber Goth a.k.a. Kate Lesley general dogsbody FFG Transgender Fiction Publishers http://www.tgfiction.co.uk/ http://www.tvfiction.com/
      November 4, 2008 8:32 AM GMT
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  • I really must agree with Marsha on this. How a simple question about spiro has been twisted by Amber Goth to justify her self-diagnosis of transgender when she is obviously a cd/tv is breathtaking.
    Every tgirl I know who takes hormones takes them for one reason only - to feminize her body and eradicate masculine characteristics, especially male sexual functionality. A fabulous day for every tgirl taking hormones is the day that she just knows that her dick will never ever get hard again and that as long as she still has it that it will only be good for one thing - to pee with. No mtf transsexual wants her dick, and can't wait to have it upgraded to a fully functional vagina and sensitive clitoris. You are just not transgendered/transsexual if you have a need to be erect and function sexually as a male. That's called being a male - period. Just because wearing panties helps to get you off doesn't make you transgendered. You are straight, bi or gay, depending on your biological partner preference(s), with a fetish for wearing women's clothes, no more and no less.
    Regarding the question asked - spiro will not reduce healthy blood pressures to unhealthy low rates. Spiro is a cheap & effective anti-androgen that works well in conjunction with estrogen to achieve a beautiful feminized body. It is prescribed to healthy tgirls with normal blood pressures with the single purpose of reducing/blocking testosterone. It is often prescribed in amounts up to 600 mg daily with no effects other than eradicating testosterone. Having said that, it is always better to have your hrt program monitored by competent medical professionals knowledgeable about transgender issues.
    bebe
      November 4, 2008 1:52 PM GMT
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  • Oh dear bebe!

    I agree with you that the Spiro thread was not the right place for this discussion - which is why I have started a new thread on the Elite Members Forum:

    http://gendersociety.com/[...]036125&

    I had hoped we could keep this as a mature discussion - everyone else has managed to do so up to now - but I was afraid I might offend someone like yourself. What a pity you have completely misunderstood me!

    I am not going to enter into a slanging match with you. I could take what you say as quite offensive - but I just feel sorry for you! You are clearly a rather intolerant and bigoted person with very narrow views, who is not open to new ideas! Surely as transgendered people, we should embrace diversity in all its forms, including gender identity and sexual orientation!

    Marsha does not need defending by you - she is quite capable of expressing her own ideas intelligently and cogently - and in fact I don't think Marsha and I actually disagree on very much.

    I do however find your assumptions about me rather surprising - you don't know me, and you obviously haven't read my full blog or other postings on TW.

    Before you jump to making any more unfortunate responses to what I have been saying, I suggest you start by reading the following:

    http://gendersociety.com/[...]036125&

    http://Then you might lik[...]ss.com/

    I think others will probably be outraged on my behalf when they read what you have written and the assumptions you have made about me.

    I will however say 4 things:

    1) Your understanding and knowledge of transgenderism, transsexualism, cross-dressing, fetishism and sexual orientation, how they inter-relate (if at all), are clearly very limited. I suggest you read up on these subjects before you do any more postings. I have probably met many more transgendered people of all 'varieties' - transsexuals, CD/TV's, BDSM fetishists, draq queens, drag kings; and also lesbian women, gay men and bisexuals - than you, hon, and I have discussed these issues at great length over more than 30 years of being 'out' on the U.K. LGBTG scene. I have also written on the subject of gender identity as an academic.

    2) You are certainly in no position to decide who or what I am - whether CD/TV, Transgendered or Transsexual - and one of the main points I have been trying to raise in recent postings on TW and on my blog is the usefulness of ANY of these designations - all of which are limiting in their own ways. You obviously have your own comfort zone regarding yout transgenderism, feel comfortable in it, and feel threathened by anyone who questions your assumptions, both about this and about the medicatioin you are on.

    3) You really shouldn't say things on TrannyWeb to other members like: 'just because wearing panties helps to get you off doesn't make you transgendered. You are straight, bi or gay, depending on your biological partner preference(s), with a fetish for wearing women's clothes, no more and no less. ' - That is just beening plain offensive! I have know that I was transgendered since the age of 4 and had the urge to dress as a girl and take on a female persona long before I reached puberty (read my blog); you are really in no position to tell me whether or not I am transgendered ! There are plenty of transsuals who have had sexual relations with one or other (or both) sexes prior to SRS - this does not make them any less transsexual. Are you saying that if a male to female transgendered person (transsexual, to use the short-hand term), has EVER had sexual relations with a woman, she can NEVER be considered truly transsexual, even if she has SRS? She is still a CD/TV, is she, by virtue of having made use of her 'old gentleman' before changing sex? I'm sure the well-known Welsh Author Jan Morris, who was on the first succesful Everest expedition as a (male) journalist, was married to a woman, but has now been living for many years as a post-operative transsexual woman, would be interested to hear that! (Try reading her book, 'Conumdrum'. - Do a search on Google about her - she is a distinguished writer.) Does that also apply to female to male TS's who may previously have had a sexual experience with a man? You have such a very limited view of transgenderism and how it relates to sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is not particularly relevant to transgenderism, did you not know that? Yes, the previaling 'orthodoxy' is that most mtf CD/TV's are 'heterosexual' in the sense that their sexual preferences are directed towards women, but there are always exceptions to any generalisation. I have personally met transgendered people who come into each and all of your sexual orientation categories, plus a few others, such as lesbian, that you haven't even mentioned. I know CD/TV's who are dating men (so the 'heterosexual' category doesn't hold for them); there are also post-operative trannsexuals who are either in pre-existing relationships with biogical (XX chromome) women, or form relationships with women and stay in those relationships, thereby becoming lesbians. Some pre- and post- op. TS's form relationships with other transgendered individuals, including CD/TV's and TS's. Other TS's post-operatively form sexual relationships with biological (XY chromosome) men, and therefore might be designated 'heterosexual' as women. Still others have female to male (XX chromosome) transgendered men as friends and/or sexual partners. There are no hard and fast 'rules' about this, and if you think there are, your experience of the LGBTG and 'straight' communities has clearly been somewhat limited. So basically I just find what you have said laughable! I do not comprehend why all these labels matter to you so much - they are only labels - simplistic constructs for complex psycho-sexual and psycho-social theories of human behaviour.

    4) I still don't agree with you about Spiro. I don't think I ever said that 'spiro reduces healthy blood pressures to unhealthy low rates.'
    If you think Spiro is safe and effective - good for you, carry on taking it. I am very much of the opinion that Lucy Diamond is right in what she says on this, and I defer to her expertise and knowledge. I also respect Marsha's views and think it is perfectly ok for anyone to have an individual view - I don't think we need to 'get personal', which you have definitely done in your response to me!

    You seem as if you have quite a lot of anger. I didn't mean to upset you! There does seem to be a general difference of opinion between how we view Spiro on the two different sides of the Pond - I don't so that as a problem. There are also differing views on Androcur (Cyproterone) - it is often preferred over Spiro as an ant-androgen in Europe, while it is not a legal in the States. I would suggest that at this (fairly rudimentary) stage in medical understanding of endocrinology and the 'best' feminising drug regimens for mtf transsexuals, the best conclusion is that there are no 'definitive' answers - and it is a case of taking 'whatever suits you personally'.

    I do think you seem to have a particular problem, bebe, in your attitude to people whom you designate 'CD/TV's', (which I don't regard myself as, anyway); surely it is up to each of us to decide 'what' we are and 'who' we are?


    I had always thought Canadians were a fairly tolerant and enlightened nation. Please, if you post again, perhaps you could try to be a little more restrained, objective - and less judgemental - otherwise I don't see much point in continuing this - which as you say, is in the wrong thread anyway.

    x Amber






    Amber Goth a.k.a. Kate Lesley general dogsbody FFG Transgender Fiction Publishers http://www.tgfiction.co.uk/ http://www.tvfiction.com/
      November 6, 2008 2:41 PM GMT
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  • Amber,
    I guess why I believe CD/TV is appropriate for you is for exactly what you said, you want the best of both worlds. I have absolutely no issue with that either. I am not a fan of gals not planning on transitioning fully taking hormones, but I am not your mother so I will leave that up to you. I hope you are responsible about how you go about it because obviously there are people around you that care. I encourage even those self medding to not hide the fact they are on hormones. Not to family and not to doctors.
    Hugs,
    Marsha
      November 6, 2008 3:07 PM GMT
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  • Hi Marsha,

    Thanks for caring.

    My family and my G.P. (doctor) know. So I am not exactly 'self-meddling' any more, insofar as I do have medical supervision of what I am doing.

    I have never said that I am not planning to transistion completely - because at this stage I don't know.

    You CAN be my mother if you want. I think you'd make a nice mum!

    I seem to have opened a can of worms, and I am feeling a bit got at, Mum! Oh dear!

    Did you read what the Canadian lass said? Oh deary me! I was hoping we could have kept this as a mutually supportive and friendly discussion - which is what I thought TW was about - but obviously not. I think I am going to bow out now, at least of this thread....

    Must get on with some work!

    Hugs, x x x

    Amber
    (poor little limey girl)
    Amber Goth a.k.a. Kate Lesley general dogsbody FFG Transgender Fiction Publishers http://www.tgfiction.co.uk/ http://www.tvfiction.com/
      November 6, 2008 3:42 PM GMT
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  • Hi girls,

    Kate (AKA Amber Goth) has sent me an email apologising for opening this can of worms and asking about having her persuasion changed to TG. I've changed it to TS and I believe she is now happy with that.

    Many of us hate being categorized in any way but in order for everyone to know who they are talking to, we must have them.

    Here is my reply to Amber Kate so that everyone knows our policy on titles at Trannyweb...

    "The only options we have for TG people are TV/CD or TS. There is no need for members to add any more than that (like whether they are pre or post op) unless they actually want to, in which case they can easily put that extra info in their profile description. We leave it up to each individual to decide as everyone seems to have different views on this.

    Obviously there's a multitude of potential titles in between those that we offer but it could go on forever and still some people would not be satisfied. This in an old chestnut which we have thought long and hard about on numerous occasion in the past. The title TG is not on the list because it is assumed that anyone who joins Trannyweb and who is not an admirer or an SO must surely be a TG person. We do give them the option of "None of the above" though, just in case."

    Hope that explains things a bit.

    Now, this thread has gone way off topic and into the realms of one of the topics that's been banned at this site and many others for a long time so I will close the thread here.

    If anyone wants to continue talking about Spiro, please start a new thread.

    Hugs,

    Katie x
    Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next without any loss of enthusiasm!
      November 6, 2008 6:17 PM GMT
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  • I have hypertension and was taking a blood pressure med to bring it down and it worked great.the cost was high so the doc suggesteded trying spiro to reduce testrone and control blood pressure,thus killing two birds with one stone.by blood pressure went way out of control over a 2 week test period,from 110/70 average to 160/90 average and my pulse at rest decreased from 65 to 52 average.I had other bad but mild reactions on spiro.has anyone on spiro had this problem ? after a 2 day body cleansing I went back to my blood pressure med[benicar hct] and my pressure droped within 5 hours to 109/70 with a normal pause rate of 65 .
      April 1, 2012 4:20 PM BST
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