I don't think anyone is arguing whether or not prostitution should be legalized, that is an entirely different issue. Often prostitution goes hand in hand with drugs or alcoholism but that is neither here nor there as related to this thread. The point I and I think others have made here about prostitution is that without some forward thinking and planning, you may find yourself in a lifestyle you never imagined you would stoop to. The "it would never happen to me" philosophy, might just turn out wrong.
Hugs,
Marsha

I hope my title for this thread grabbed the attention of some of you. In another thread Wendy asked if I could further explain some of my ideas, so going into this I foresee upsetting some gals here at TW. Sorry, that’s life. I don’t prescribe to have all the answers, these are my opinions.

Being transgendered is not all fun and games; there is a real world out there. You can choose to live in a fantasy or prepare yourself for reality. Something that most TS’s have heard along the way is that they need to be willing to lose everything they have in life, their family, friends and jobs. What fool originated that saying doesn’t matter; the fact is by not planning out your future you will accomplish each of those, and that is reality. I have personally been told by many here that you have to be selfish, get real, I think you are confused. I hope they really mean having self interest. Selfishness implies doing whatever for your own sake, ignoring all others and in my opinion that is a quick way to a disastrous life. Self interest is doing what is right for you that will obtain the best outcome. Self interest is you taking the time to plan things out in your life, taking into account that you will not always get what you want.

The reality of being transgendered is that many of the gals here at TW will be drug users, alcoholics and prostitutes, or sadly take their own lives. The biggest reason in my opinion for this is many gals get caught up in the fantasy side of life. In the U.S. I think all the middle aged gals clearly see the younger generation as the “have to have it now generation.” Somehow many think they are owed something, lol, give me a break and get off your butt and work for it. Transition does not happen overnight, start planning for your future.

I suppose I will finish my rant with how many of the gals are giving the TG community a bad name. Unfortunately we are associated with the gay and lesbian community which only adds to the public’s misconception that being TG is a sexual thing. Every gal here wants the right to live life the way they want including me, but so often TGs are fueling the fire with their own behavior. Unprepared TGs that become prostitutes, alcoholics and drug users give the community a bad name and give society something to point a finger at and say they don’t want any part of it. Take your time, develop a skill, and don’t sit there with your hands out waiting for someone to give you the life you dream of living.

I actually, along the way to where I currently am, have been an alcoholic, a drug user and a prostitute.

Some of us have to learn the hard way that gender transition requires a solid foundation.

I apologize for giving the trans community a bad name.

Robyn, in no way am I trying to single anyone out. The fact is those things happen at an abnormally high rate in our community and I hope we can all agree that those are not good things. You learned the hard way and are trying to change. As much as the public needs to be educated on who we really are, so do many of the new TGs.

I don´t belong to any community and there hardly exists any here in this part of the world. And there is no need for such one.
I am a regular female citizen and thatsit. Use alcohol as others do.

Laura

Wow. That was a little wierd, I think I agree with you. I am a bit angrily self-defensive and that what makes sense to me about what you have said. However, I am a lesbian TS and very prudent. I kinda like what you said, keep up the good thoughts! P.

Laura it sounds like you are clearly on the right track seeing yourself as just another female citizen. That is what I meant when I said gals should leave the TG community when they transition, I applaud you.

Prissy, being lesbian is just another part of your life. Although I have had gay friends over the years and don't have any issues with gay or lesbian couples, it is the in your face attempts to mainstream the gay agenda that irritates me. There is no need for teaching that stuff in school. All they need to cover is that there are all kinds of different people out there and that is alright. I suppose you could say I don't like over the top activists.

Nikki, thanks for the great comment. Unfortunately our communtity has more than it's fair share of prostitutes, drug users and alcoholics. In this new generation of instant news, the media tends to sensationalize stories and therefore it is important in my view that we project a positive image or else the media will project one for us, and that is probably not a good thing. But I think the bottom line is society needs to know this is not a sexual thing and as long as we are part of the GLBT community it will stay a sexual thing in societies eyes. And heck yeah I think we have a right to have fun and play games, but as with everything else in life there comes a time to stop playing and get back to business.

I did not mean to imply that anyone was being singled out, however, I did mean to indicate that drug abuse, alcoholism and the related phenomena of prostitution, unemployment and homelessness are so common, indeed, among transgender people, that it is important to be mindful of how we express our views with regard to these issues.

Yes, we have the highest rates of unemployment and drug abuse of any minority group in the US, but as for these things creating a negative impression of transgender people, they are just things that happen, regardless of their cause, be it social or personal. The question is, what do we do about it? We can reach out and share our experience, strength and hope with our sisters and brothers who suffer from these conditions.

And just what, exactly, is a "new TG?"

Geez Robyn you know what a new TG is, lol. I guess what I mean by that is when a gal first starts realizing she is different and begins to explore the possibilities of her future.

And for the other part I may as will ruffle somemore feathers. Sharing our experiences is so important to educating our own community, we all make mistakes and hopefully we all can learn from those mistakes. But once again with that said, there are "cheerleaders" at TW that for whatever reason push others to go faster or further then they should. The ones that push selfishness versus self interest. They continue to beat the drum that you need to say hell with everyone else and that you need to be who you are inside. All that accomplishes is isolating ones self and pushes the individual either into a fantasy world with a spiraling downward outcome or often depression and the all so common feeling of lonliness. Do I have to spell it out, those things cause the alcoholism, drug use, prostitution and suicide which are so prevalent in our community. And a statement to those "cheerleaders" out there, even with a body that matches the insides, answer me this, how can anyone truly be happy when everything that ever meant anything to them has been destroyed?

I won't name names in this thread, but there have been gals we are all aware of that are now basically homeless and jobless because in my opinion they were going to fast and got caught up in all the fun and excitement of being TG. Meanwhile in that fantasy world, reality crumbled down around them and they now find their futures uncertain. I pray that things turn around for them because I love them dearly.

So maybe to answer your question "what do we do?" How about starting with more gals stepping in and pointing this stuff out when it is obviously going on, bring these gals back to reality. Stop worrying about hurting someone's feelings and help them. I am not saying that they should not be the woman inside that they are, but dang it, transition does not happen overnight and they should use that time to make solid plans for their future. As Insanitease said in her blog, we tend to want to blame others for our own problems.

Stefy first off thanks for commenting. I was not trying to imply that all of the TG community has this problem or that others don't have these problems. Statistics show that the TG community has a higher incidence of these issues. What I am trying to say is that lack of planning for the future on the part of TG gals can lead to these and other issues like becoming jobless and homeless. Eventually that reflects on the TG community as a whole.

I don't think we all need to learn the hard way and if we shield this information from gals because we are afraid to hurt their feelings, then shame on us. This is reality, we cannot force society to accept us. I think many here believe by changing laws regarding anti-discrimation will make us acceptable, hogwash. We need to demonstrate to the public that we are good people first before any law will mean a hill of beans. Too many gals are living their lives day to day in their eagerness to transition. To me it looks like a crapshoot, they roll the dice and see where they fall. When they lose it reflects on all of us. Planning and preparing for the longterm is the only way to increase our odds of winning.

It would be interesting to take a survey of the general public and ask what comes to mind when you say transgender or transexual. I don't think I would be too far off by saying they would say sexual perverts. That's not OK with me.

If those who have been following this thread have not figured it out yet, I want the TG community to succeed, not just me. That would be selfish wouldn't it. And those who have known me for awhile know I am not selfish.

And Stefy please don't think I am saying all this in a rebuttal to your comment, I was just using it to expand on my prior comments.

Geez Anna, I love you dearly but I said many, not all, not most, just many of the girls will end up that way. I thought I clarified that again in the comment right before yours. All I am saying is that the gals need to think about their future or those type of things can happen and statistics show they do happen. I never meant for this thread to get side tracked on the alcoholism, drugs and prostitution issue. The point I'm trying to make is that some of the gals get so wrapped up in transitioning as fast as they can that they fail to plan out their future. And they do it as if there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. They flat out need to get back to reality and think about the long term.

The other point I'm trying to make is that how we end up reflects on the entire TG community. A negative outcome only fuels the flames of the societies we are trying to get to accept us. Denying these things exist will keep us as outcasts long into the future.

Once again all I'm trying to say is why give them anything bad to say about us. If you like to dream, try dreaming of a time when transitioning is just a straight forward process and you move on with your life without the need of support groups.

I truly appreciate the comments and that was what I was hoping would happen with this thread. It does not surprise me who has commented because I know all of you and most of this stuff does not apply to any of you other than how the TG community is accepted. I am just hoping that some of the gals that live in that fantasy world read some of this.

Here here, Karen. I firmly believe that my drug use was also an attempt to numb myself from the pain of who I am. It was only in the clarity I achieved in sobriety that I was able to confront and accept myself. I really don't know that there is anything we can do to prevent this from happening to others. Only time, and a shift in public perception of transgender people will remove the stigma that drives us into the pain of denial and suppression that causes some of us to seek solace in drugs and alcohol. This shift in social attitude will also go a long way toward ending the marginalization of transgender people that drives some into prostitution just to survive.

As I said before, these are just things that befall us, and I'm not sure that anyone can control these phenomena to any real degree at this point. It's not as if those who find themselves in such a situation are in any real position to be concerned about whether they are perpetuating stereotypes or creating an unfavorable impression of the transgender community, nor do they really find themselves in these circumstances by conscious choice.

Once again thanks for the comments. I don't profess to having all the answers, these are just a few of the problems I see in our community. I want to see everyone here succeed and it really hurts me personally to see the struggles many here go through. I have always cared about others more than myself, thats just how I am.

Stefy's comment about being who you are and stop trying to separate ourselves from the rest of the population is an excellent point. I was only trying to make a minor point about the alcoholism and drug use stuff as being a possible outcome for those who don't carefully plan out their future. It actually surprises me how much focus was put on that issue. Sure there are pitfalls in life for everyone, but when it appears that some make no effort to avoid them, it upsets me.

I still feel all this reflects on our community. When you have the general society unaccepting of our situation, is it wrong to want to take some ammunition away from them? Be honest with yourself, when you see a dirty homeless individual in your town do you immediately feel sorry for that individual or is the first thought that comes to your mind that individual is a loser? Remember, I said first thought. I believe the first impression society has of us is still sexual perverts. The number one thing I feel would help us on that issue is to separate from the GLBT community. The "sexual" issue is probably the biggest cause of hardships in our community. When gals here fall into those hardships, the other things I mentioned begin to occur. It is a viscious circle.

Wendy I do have many of my own ideas on planning and yes I would like to spell them out for everyone. Please understand I have ADHD which makes it very time consuming for me to sit down and put it all into words, but I will whittle away on it. Interactive stuff like chat and going back and forth in these forums is much easier for me. I guess my biggest peeve on planning is the HBSOC, I think it poorly prepares the gals for the real world. It is nice to know more and more gals are going about it differently now. But I do believe the HBSOC is atleast partially to blame for much of the hardship our community faces.

The HBSOC does have most of the important steps in place but it is the order of these steps that I tend to disagree with. First off, properly identifying GID and lastly SRS are where they belong. My belief is that regarding HRT and real life experience is that the gal should fit the part before going out into the world no matter how earger she is to get out there. Face it, not all of us are passable in the early stages. When a gal goes into her RLT looking like a guy in a dress, she is going to be treated like a guy in a dress and I believe this can lead to many issues in her life, like job loss and rejection by society. Whereby giving her a chance by starting HRT atleast 6 months prior to RLT, insisting facial hair removal is completed prior to RLT, and a satisfactory voice is accomplished, these things will go a long ways in helping her meld into society from the start. And if the gal later decides she has made the wrong decision and accepts living as a guy, she still would be able to.

I know the HBSOC has some flexibility built in, but it is still not common for therapist and doctors to stray from the guidlines.

It's probably time to close out this thread so I think I will just summarize quickly the point I was trying to make.

I think we all understand that we should be able to live the life we feel is right for us. How we go about it will reflect on our personal outcomes and to a great extent how society views us. It would be nice if we could just flip a switch and instantly be who we are, but thats not reality. Rushing to become who we truly are is likely to cause problems down the road. I encourage everyone to look at reality and take the time needed to be the successful woman of your dreams. I honestly wish everyone the best and thanks for all the comments.

Marsha

Robyn, that's a very personal and brave admittance. I for one am proud to be associated with you.
Heather

Hi Marsha,
I have been absent for quite awhile and have just returned and have been reading this thread with interest. I love that we have so many varied views and this just goes to show what a wonderful, varied group of girls we really are. I would just like to comment though with this: Sometimes we don't see the pitfalls to avoid them, we simple fall into them! It can be difficult to see something that you don't realize is there to begin with. It can be so much clearer looking from the outside in so I do have a great deal of sympathy for the people that don't get it all right in the first place.
I guess you could put me into the group of people who have not always been a shining example to any gender and, yes, I've made my share of mistakes in my life but I still try to do the best I can whilst keeping my sanity. I could not walk in some peoples shoes as I lack the courage but I also cannot judge others for the fact that I cannot walk in their shoes to begin with. I would dance with joy if, tomorrow, the world suddenly accepted us for who we are but I fear that is a long way off. As I grow older the urge to want to live my life as a complete woman grows stronger and stronger within me so I can understand the rush some women feel to want to transition without thinking everything through. If it were only so simple then we could rid the world of a great many problems. Sometimes rationality goes out the window and we just don't think logically at all but that is all part of being the complex creatures that are human beings. All we can do is offer our help when needed and our advice when asked, all the rest must come from the individual. I would rather offer forgiveness than criticism and my heart goes out to all those that lose their way. Just be there and offer a helping hand, a shoulder to cry on and an ear to bend! Understanding is, after all, the greatest gift we can offer no matter who we are. A great thread and thank you Marsha for allowing us all to have our say and to express our opinions. This is why I love it here so much!

Ciao
Belinda

What a great comment Belinda. All I was trying to do in the first place is make others aware of some of the pitfalls out there in hopes that they will start taking them into account and try and do things to prevent them. I had no intentions of pointing out individuals or attacking anyone for making those mistakes. I started this thread with the intentions of helping more gals succeed. Thanks again for the wonderful comment.

I encourage everyone to read the June edition of the Tranny Tribune which includes a wonderful interview with Cristan Williams by Katie Glover. For me, it is nice to know I am not alone on this subject.

Thank you Marsha Ann for the great reply! I really enjoy being able to just have a conversation and listen (read LOL) to everyone's expressed views without it all getting nasty. I hope I can spend a bit more quality time in here with you all.

Ciao
Belinda xxxooo

To the few folks here who may still remember me, "Hi. I'm still lurking around. Just not posting much..."

Anyhow: I'm glad to see that this topic came up and was discussed (as noted above) with civility. While we need to be positive and focused as a community, and individually, on all of the positive aspects of who we are, knowing what the "problems & pitfalls are" give us guidance to avoid them.

Oh, and sober 3 years last week...

Hugs, All!

Karri
SoberTG.blogspot.com

Congratulations Karri and thanks for bringing this thread back to life by posting your anniversary here. I had recognized from the title that it was me who started this thread but had to read through it again to refresh my mind what it was about. I hope others will take the time to read this again because of all the input and as you say it was discussed in a civil manner.
Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha--

Not so fast with closing this thread!

First off, you are spot on when you say that we need to have self interest. (Selfishness is never good.) Enlightened self interest is better; it shows that you are thinking of more than just yourself in this process.

Now--Hate to say this, ladies, but Marsha is somewhat correct. I have said for years that (a) being TG/TS is no picnic, and that (b) you had better prepare to lose everything. (I am so prepared if/when that day comes.) Real life is where one lives...and you'd better be prepared for the cold, cruel facts of that life. TG/TS people cannot always find normal work, and if you have a history of any kind of substance abuse doubly so. There are studies out there that prove it; most recently in San Francisco there was a report released on TG/Ts in the workplace. http://transgenderlawcent[...]ort.pdf is where you can read all about it. And in today's economy--goddess, I've even been affected--my salary has been cut by 60%; I'm now a REAL Kelly Girl, looking for temp work in a tight market.

As for the HBSOC...

Many of you have read my thoughts on that; it forms a whole section on sakuramina.com and if you really want to read it, go to http://www.sakuramina.com/id194.htm. But this isn't really about that--it's about the truth.

And the truth is, what one does, we all get accused of doing or being. (It's why, in a way, I wish we weren't tied to the lesbian/gay thing.) Not all of us are drug users, prostitutes, or alcoholics. Many of us are successful people who simply want to live as the women we are--or are becoming. That was the impetus and theme behind "Day to Day Women."

Sadly, a fair number of us will take our own lives or be killed. That's not life in the Mina lane; that's the cold statistical truth, luvs.

Society does paint us with a rather tarnished brush. It's why Katie has some of the protections up on T-Web that she does; so we can discuss safely our issues.

My question is this: what do we do as a community, over 20,000+ strong just here to fix it? What can each one of us do--today--to change just one or two people's mind about us? What do we do to show people we are not all perverts?

Answer that--and then, let's do it.

Luv 'n hugs,

Dr. Mina Sakura

Mina,
I originally attempted to close out the thread when it seemed things were getting repeated.

BUT!!!!!! The SanFrancisco survey link you provided was outstanding, thanks so much for posting that. Here it is again http://transgenderlawcent[...]ort.pdf

I'm sorry but sometimes I just shake my head at the crazy things I hear or see other gals talk about. Pretty sad. Knowing gals who have lost their families, jobs, and everything else is really sad to see. Don't ever believe it can't happen to you, because as Mina pointed out again, statistics will prove you wrong.

Thanks so much again for you great post Mina.
Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha--

Thank you for reminding us that life isn't all rosy.

**grins**

As if I didn't know that all too well right now...!

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

Cristine, you are so eloquent with words compared to me, very well said.
As for selfish versus self interest, I believe there has to be a mix of both. As you stated just by being on the path we are on we are forced to be selfish. But I also believe being overly selfish can expedite the loss of family, friends and work; which will only results in more hardship. That is where planning fits in. It is obvious in conversation that many are clueless what all is involved in transistioning. I call those people "the gotta have it now crowd" It takes years to transition so planning can be as simple as understand a reasonable timetable and expenses involved to transistion. Having a marketable skill to enhance your chances of staying employed. Possibly "hinting" to others that you are more female than male so overtime they don't see it as quite the shock when you do tell them. Time is on your side, you have plenty of it, as I said earlier it takes years to transistion.

BTW Cristine, I love your latest pic.

Hugs,
Marsha

Swedish Koala--

Ease up there, hon--all RG designates (and it's near cousin, GG--Genetic Girl) are those who are either at birth, through surgery, or living full-time in the eyes of the world, female. It is used to differentiate from T-girls. It is a form of shorthand, nothing else.

I see by your profile you are post-transition. You are a woman. Case closed there.

In my case, I'm not looking to have SRS/GRS any time in my foreseeable future, but to many in the eyes of the world, I'm a woman. (Just ask the Shiseido makeup clerk where I buy makeup.) I live IRT as a woman. I certainly don't see myself as a fake, copy, etc. I see myself as the woman I am, the woman I've become.

But...if I were to be examined by an MD who didn't know anything about me, I certainly wouldn't pass as a RG/GG--I still have that thing between my legs. (Granted, I also have a rack that makes my sisters and my SO envious, but that's another story for another time.)

You do raise an interesting issue...are we really girls at all? Or, are we some sort of counterfeit, hoping to pass ourselves off as the real thing?

Let's open a new can of worms here, kids. This is a great thread right now....

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

I'm always opinionated so I am happy to toss mine in. RG/GG to me is a female born with the typical genetic traits of a woman. As I see it we don't qualify as that. I see us as mentally being women, but somewhere our bodies did not get the message. Transition is about bringing our body more insync with our brain. I don't care if someone is contemplating transition, pre or post op, they are not and never will be genetic females. I think if you expect the world to accept you as a RG/GG just because you have had surgeries you obviously are setting yourself up for a rough future.

Cristine also made a great point about those that choose to abandon the community after they have proclaimed themselves women. I personally know gals who have taken that attitude and I still see them needing support. If anything they have more problems because they are too da%& proud to ask for help. Like Cristine, I am me, I am happy, and I don't have any problem with the word "transition". BOO! what are you afraid of?

The whole premise of this thread was to point out the fact there is a real world out there that we must live in, not someones dream, fantasy world.

Hugs,
Marsha

Koala,
Maybe it didn't quite come across clearly, although I see RG/GG as being genetic and therefore the reason we can't be considered a RG/GG, I did say we are women. So in a world of men and women, yes we are women. But to not think we will be questioned on our authenticity is a little naive. And again, I am proud of who I am, I am not afraid to say I am transsexual.

As for hijacking my thread, lol, you really didn't. you just brought up another controversy we face in the real world. Thanks for you input.

Hugs,
Marsha

Hugs Koala,
You definitely have a story to tell and that is exactly what this thread was about in the first place. Struggles we face in real life and what each of us has done to continue on with life. We don't want to give everyone following this thread the wrong idea, there are lots and lots of wonderful days. Right now I really couldn't be much happier. Just to let you know, I don't go around spouting that i'm TS, but if someone asks I am happy to talk about it. I don't consider myself an activist, but if someone needs a shoulder to cry on or someone to talk to, I am here for them.
Hugs and always wishing you the best,
Marsha

Hi Marsha Ann and everyone else,
I may be veering slightly off thread here.....but here goes.............Life as a T-person is not a bowl of cherries and there are no 100% sure rules for dealing with it.
I think we're dealing with some very complex themes here and I would caution against making too much out of apparent causal relationships, especially as it seems to me that,in many cases,neither have we control or influence over them,nor are they specific to us.
Take suicide,for example.I've just been reading an article in Der Spiegel about genetic research being carried out in Montreal.(for the scientists here-and I'm not one-we're talking about epigenetics here)It would seem that,for example,parental indifference during infancy/childhood,leads to our self-protection mechanisms being switched out making us susceptible for suicide.Extrapolating somewhat,it may well be that,for many of the suicides amongst T-people,this was predetermined long before they were even vaguely aware of being TG/TS and that,if it played a role at all,it was that of the proverbial last drop.
As far as our social acceptance goes,I don't know that there's a lot we can do about this.(Not pessimistic,just realistic) After all,there is that notorious verse in the bible which,whether mistranslated,misconstrued,taken out of context or not,influences consciously or subconsciously attitudes towards us.T-people in the US are probably only too aware of what the 'christian' fundamentalist right is capable of. Similarly,as far as the 'red top' press in the UK is concerned,we are no better than outlaws.As long as far too many people prefer to be told what to believe,what to think,what their prejudices are etc etc,rather than using their brains then I see little hope of our position improving.
And of course,cases like the tranny serial killer who was active in Germany about 10yeas ago don't help us either.
I'd be very careful with RG/GG definitions as well.We would do well to remember that we are not the only women who,for example,can't get pregnant,and who might well fail a 'sex-test' at the Olympics.I,for one,refuse to play hop-scotch on the XX/XY(AIS) minefield..............
It's saddening to read Koala's story but it's all too common.I can't think of a feasible solution for this problem.
As for the rest.......certainly some of us were/are/will become alcoholics/junkies/prostitutes,but they are none of them 100% T-people specific problems so much as problems of society in general.Any solutions have to seen in this general context,with the T-community perhaps adding some T-specific 'fine-tuning'.
Otherwise....human nature is the problem,as we all know from reading through the threads on the various forums here but,short of cloning 'the ideal TS',we are just going to have to live with it somehow.

Ciao...................
Lynn H.

..and to carry on......
Planning..there is theory and there is cold reality. You can sit down,map out all the individual time scales and so on-school or university,career etc etc.This is the theory.The cold reality in these days of globalisation is that, given that it's becoming extremely difficult for 'normals' to plan their futures, for many of us it's probably become impossible. Prostitution? For many single women- students,single mothers,- this is,unfortunately,often the only means of financing their studies and/or feeding the kids given the increasingly miserly level of student support or social security handouts,to say nothing of unpaid alimony.I'm not saying I condone it but, given the increasing tendency for many employers to pay starvation wages,I am not going to condemn any T-person who sees this as the only way of paying the rent and keeping body and soul together.
Drugs,booze and topping yourself?? Well,perhaps we ought to look here at the behaviour of those supposedly 'accompanying' our transitions- the medics,the psychos etc etc.There's been some criticism of the Harry Benjamin guidelines in this thread,although very general.I would suspect that the way some of these experts treat us is a reason for alcohol and drug abuse. In Germany,if you're a German citizen and want to transition you have to have an 'assessor'.Here are a couple of documented assessorial behaviour:
Assessor 'A' is only 5' 6" or so tall.Any MtF taller than this simply cannot be a woman..............
Assessor 'B' "You will have 8 appointments with me.At each one I will set a trap for you.If you fall into only one of them you're rejected!"
This is notorious in Germany- the assessor 'carelessly' knocks over a glass of water.......If you grab a cloth and mopp up you're a woman..............
Or,slightly different,a disabled post-op MtF being assessed by a (woman)doctor for a disability payment is persistently addressed as Mr.........
When even the strongest take to the bottle or harder stuff under such circumstances it wouldn't surprise me at all.

None of the above is autobiographical,by the way.I just have my own particular view of things,that's all.I've arrived at a situation where I'm quite happy with who I am and how I'm living.I can be Lynn 24/7 but If I have to be my alter ego 'D' for a day or two then that's no problem either.I no longer feel that it's vital for to transition,come hell or high water.

Ciao
Lynn H.

Lynn has summed it all up so very well, I'm not sure I can add a great deal more. However, I'll try. Why does Trannyweb exist and why are we all here? Because transgendered people of whatever type are marginalised within mainstream society. Not only are we marginalised, in some places we are hated, persecuted and even killed. The United States, I believe, being a recent example. Some transgendered people find themselves not only marginalised from society in general but disowned by their families, dismissed from their jobs and abused by those they once considered their friends. It is hardly surprising that many turn to drink or drugs for solace or prostitutes to make ends meet. We don't all have support and security. Some of us are alone and have only our strength of character to rely upon. I could easily have committed suicide and it is only my love of family that has prevented me. My cousin committed suicide. I never knew her, it happened when I was very young and she was just a teenager. I only found out recently, such a non-person had she become. The shame on the family is palpable. As Robyn and Karen have shown it is possible to pull your life together but it is a long hard struggle, and the fear of lapsing again into that nightmare world is ever present. We all need each other and we should never be hasty in wanting to disassociate ourselves from those who need our support. Many have found that support within the gay and lesbian community. To believe that community to be one of sleaze and sex is to believe the media misrepresentation of it. What is the difference between a straight nightclub and a gay one. Its basic design is the same. Transsexuals are just as marginalised within society as the other groupings mentioned. To believe otherwise would be foolish. To imagine that a community of transsexuals, free of the chaff and the detritus removed, a society of virtuous souls, would serve as a beacon to an expectant world agog at the beauty of it all, would be a true definition of fantasy. Transsexualism will never be accepted it will only ever be tolerated. Our best defence against intolerance is to embrace as many people as we can. Not to do so is to fail to learn the lessons of history.

Lynn and Porscha,
Thanks so much for your contribution to this thread, both of you are so right. We face a lot and hopefully we will have the strength to persevere. My point on planning is not to have something chiseled in stone, but to know what you may face and have an idea how you will deal with it. You can't merely do this blindly and expect positive results.
Thanks and hugs,
Marsha

and now to be a little provocative................As I've said,we're dealing with a complex set of factors over which we don't necessarily have any or much influence and control.But,there is a social-political element which some of us could try to influence,particularly in the US I think.This is a country which likes to think of itself as THE world leader and glittering example for the rest of us.............I saw some figures recently somewhere about the US medical system and the percentage of people,with and without jobs,who cannot afford , or are excluded from,even the most basic form of health insurance,is appalling.This almost certainly affects quite a few T-people and I wonder how this shows up in the statistics(yes,I know what Churchill and Roosevelt(?) said about stats...). I have a nasty feeling that,for some of us in the US,a couple of unprotected tricks in the parking lot will cover the rent,the groceries,some cheap rotgut or
doubtful smack or crack to numb the pain and shame,some hormones of doubtful quality from some chemist in the ghetto who doesn't ask questions,and,if it's been a good day/night,with luck might even just stretch to some very basic health cover.And that's assuming anybody would insure them if they're hooking.The state health systems that we in 'old Europe' enjoy may be far from perfect but at least they remove one variable from the equation.
Marsha,Robyn,and the rest of you from the US.-perhaps you ought to consider pushing for a serious reform of your Health system so that no-one is excluded because of their financial, social and/or racial status. I realise that what I'm suggesting here smacks of Socialism,if not.........Communism(!), and that,as good Americans you're now reaching for earplugs,blinkers and that you're on the verge of sh***ing yourselves as you worship at the shrine of Saint Joe McCarthy, but something like this might help to improve those alcoholism,drug abuse,prostitution and suicide statistics.Even Cuba looks after the health of its citizens better!
Otherwise......well,I think that,in every country,we need to think about some form of educational means of getting the message across that we don't bite,don't eat little children for supper,and that we don't have two heads (I don't think Zaphod Beeblebrox is a T-person....) but are,actually, as 'normal' as anybody else! But,
this isn't going to happen overnight- it's going to be a long,long march through the institutions until we reach the right levers.
Thanks,Porscha.The GLBT aspect may not be everyones cup of tea but at least they didn't pass by on the other side. If nothing else,at least they've lent us an umbrella!
Let's look at Lynn Conway's web-site,the successes she's got there,and take hope.
'Always look on the bright side of life.............'

I must learn to be more concise............
Ciao
Lynn H.

Lynn, we all live in different circumstances, so often we are comparing apples to oranges. I was the one who started the Health Care thread in the Polly Ticks forum. I am totally against government run universal healthcare. The more dependent you are on government run programs, the more screwed you are. For your information I pay far less for my healthcare than your UK NIC and I get far better care. If I want an appointment to see my doc this week even to just talk to him, all I need to do is call in the morning. ANYONE in this country can get medical care that sameday if it is an emergency. You have everyone disillusioned that universal care is free, give me a break. I included a link to the 2008 UK NIC, National Insurance Contribution chart, in the Polly Ticks forum. It is not free and it might stun some how much it actually costs. And for people in the U.S. hearing what you often go through for medical care, that is crazy. As for how much I would save compared to your NIC, I could pay for all my meds, labs, doc visits, and SRS in less than 3 years. LOL, and airfare to Colorado or Thailand to have the SRS surgery.
Hugs,
Marsha

Porscha:

Our best defence against intolerance is to embrace as many people as we can. Not to do so is to fail to learn the lessons of history.

"To forget history is to be condemned to repeat the class."

Agreed we need to make change, one person at a time. Disagreed that transsexualism will always and forever be marginlized and so forth--if we can start changing enough attitudes. You and I might not live to see that day...but those who follow in our high-heeled footsteps will, goddess willing.

Luv 'n hugs to you--

Mina

Lynn--

Allow me the honor of replying to your post.

First off, I won't argue the need for healthcare reform. As one of those 44 million American citizens that have no healthcare other than what I can afford to pay (which right now, is nothing), I agree that something is needed.

However, as a veteran of the US Navy, I'll fight like mad before I'd let the government run health care in this country. If they can't treat the military correctly, what makes me think that they are capable of handling the needs of the rest of the country? This is the American Congress, who can't even get the concept of basic daily needs, much less healthcare needs because they all have enough money to get whatever healthcare they need!

As for the LGB movement--I've already said I'm tired of being treated like a redheaded bitch stepchild. (Notice I have not put the T in that LGB.) We as T-people need to get up off our collective butts and fend for ourselves, because I certainly don't trust the HRC to do the right thing. They have done an end-run on us with ENDA, and I wouldn't trust the idiots to feed my cats. And it isn't the first time we've been screwed over by HRC, either. If we as Trans people are going to see change, we will have to start working to create that change ourselves.

Maybe in Germany things really are that much better. I've never been there, so I can't really say. But I'll still live here in America, flaws and all. I'm not all for raging capitalism--but I've seen that pure socialism doesn't work well, either.

Mina

I believe LGBT and HRC are two separate issues. Although they both were involved in ENDA, that doesn't mean they go hand in hand.

I totally agree with Mina about getting the T out of LGBT. I have no issues with lesbians or gays except for their issue is sexual identity and ours is gender. Two completely different issues. Based on your logic Wendy that the LGB community has such a greater presence, why then don't we just associate with african-americans or even the UAW(United Auto Workers). Associating with a sexual based community is what is holding us back in the first place. To the misinformed people out there it is bad enough some guys like guys, but put a dress on them just makes them perverted. We need to stop the perception this is sexual.

As for the HRC, like Wendy said the rest of the LGB supported us but the HRC threw us under the bus. Why continue supporting any organization that would do that. They tried to justify it in that we need to get what we can now, but as Wendy pointed out we are a much smaller community which means down the road the HRC would have even less reason to represent us. Therefore, we need to dump them now.

Marsha

Cristine, Thanks so much for your contribution to this thread. Maybe instead of the word planning I should have said research and study everything you can about transitioning. Don't just go blindly day to day, instead take control of the process.

A simple example would be facial hair. Knowing that it may take several years to go through laser or electro hair removal should make anyone realize if their face is like a bear, maybe they should start on that before they go fulltime. Unfortunately the "gotta have it now" society believes they can put on a dress, start a transition program and they will live happily ever after. It's not going to happen.

Like you, I will never go around proclaiming who I am, nor will I go stealth. I continue to come to TW for the simple reason one day another Marsha Ann will come along, a gal that feels so alone at this amazing process, and like those that were here to help me, I hope I can help her.

Hugs,
Marsha

im sorry, i get really, really angry at anybody that claims other TG folk give the community a bad name.
Its just that attitude that is the reason why transexualism needs the LGB association to get anything done. We cant even show acceptance of diversity amoungst ourselves yet.

Becky, the fact is the squeaky wheel gets the oil. So when "gals" go out in a unladylike way, that is what people see and remember. I am not saying they are bad people, just what they do reflects on others. There is a place for those who want to wear exotic heels and dress like drag queens, but to think they deserve all the rights as a GG is totally ludicrous. That is where TS's and the CD's that just want to blend into society the best they can, come in. Here in the U.S. and other places we seek anti-discrimination laws and what ends up happening is people come out of the woodwork attacking TG's because of the drag queen image.

As for LGB, as Nikki says and I totally agree with her, that is a sexual thing. TG is GENDER ID, we don't belong grouped with them, not because they are bad people, but because of the sexual link. I don't know about gay pride events in your area, but around here they have turned into outrages sexfests, pretty revolting when that goes on in the middle of the streets. That is what society sees, I don't want to be associated with that. And you will find not even all the gays want to be associated with that behavior.

You can believe what you want but the public sees a sexually perverted guy in a dress looking like a drag queen wanting to use the ladies room. With that image I don't think I want them in there with me either. And as long as there are those willing to authenticate those beliefs, we are in trouble.

Hugs,
Marsha

Cristine, not exactly the wording I would use, but, uhmm, will, uhmm, yeah, I think I have to agree with you.
Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha,

Can I possibly try and "rescue" this thread, with a little bit of "re-direction" back to the original posting, where you brought up the subject of a higher than average proportion of the TG community being or having been involved in alcoholism, drug abuse or prostitution.

I thought I had, over the past year "come across" most, if not all, the "really interesting" threads here.
But, now that this one has been "resurected" recently, I've just read it through for the first time!

Maybe, going back to the original posting, I have something to say, which may be of interest !!

I'm not sure how many of you know already (I know I've mentioned it to some of you in PM's), but I am, in fact, a recovering alcoholic !! I've been sober for just over 9 years now, so it's not something I think about that much these days !!
Also, I'm "lucky" in that I can still go to bars, etc, without feeling the need to drink alcohol, so I've not totally lost the friendly atmosphere of that social scene!

So, to the relevence of why I'm telling you all this ..............

Over 9 yoers ago, when I finally admitted that I was an alcoholic, and needed to change my life, I went through the "usual" systems, primarily a clinic, and AA.
At the clinic, I underwent some extremely "challenging" counselling, where I was made to look very hard at myself, and my behaviour, and try to find out for myself why I was drinking so much! What was really the cause of my desire to drink myself into oblivion?!

Through all this soul-searching, and deeply honest self-learning, I realised that I was drinking to extremes, because I had a deep-seated, unending hatred of myself !!!
If I could drink to oblivion, I didn't need to face myself, and all that I hated about ME !!!

Once I'd got through that initial realisation, it was then the task to find out just what I hated so much !
Of course, I knew that already, but there was NO WAY I was going to tell them what it was !!
I'd enough problems already, without opening that "can of worms"! My Transgenderism !!!

Over the next few years, I learnt how to live with myself (though in a totally male role), and life got back on track.

But, honesty has to come out sometime, so, after holding it in for so long, eventually I HAD to tell someone !!
When I did, the relief of having told someone, and the instant acceptance that she gave me, was all-consumming!! So, after 6 months of dep thought, discussion etc, I decided that I couldn't continue to "live the lie" any longer, and I took the first step along my road of transition !!

So, that eventually, brought me here, to this great sisterhood of you all, who have helped/supported/become close friends to me !!

So, my point ...........................
Although alcoholism is generally regarded as a negative trait in people, in my case, without it I would never be the happy person I am now !!!

There's usually a positive attatched to a negative.
Sometimes it's just hard to find it!
But keep looking, you'll get it eventually !!

Hugs,
Angela. xx.

Thanks, Christine,
And I agree with your comments!
In particular, I'd like to agree with your "how can you plan something you don't even understand at the time".

Certainly, in my case at least, there was No planning in my journey to transition. In fact, the complete opposite!

Having spent my life, up until I was "forced" to face up to my alcoholism, and the real causes of it, my plan had been, very much, to "deny" my true self, and try to get on with the life I'd been dealt!
But, as I realised that my Transgenderism was at the root of the problems I was experiencing in my life, I still had to accept that I was not really going to be able to do anything about it, due to, in my mind, my age !!
However, when I eventually HAD to tell someone about it, I was met with the question "So, what are you going to do about it?" When I told her that, due to my age, I didn't really think there was much I could do, so I'd just have to accept that I would just have to get on with life as I was, she immediately said that "surely if it's truly "you", then, regardless of age, I should do something about it, as, if I didn't, it would only cause me even greater problems in the future!"
So, I arrive at this point in my life, totally unplanned !
Although this may sound very odd, in my case at least, my alcoholism was one of the best things ever to happen to me, in my life !!
Without it, I'd still be a very unhappy person, trying to live a "normal" life,but every day of it being "a lie"!!
(Of course, I now feel this life I'm living now, as being "normal" ........... the one I should have been living since birth!).

To say that alcoholism was ultimately a good thing is only my own, personal experience!
It brought me, eventually, to a very happy "place" in my life, but I can totally appreciate that that may not be true in anyone else's life!
To anyone who's in a situation of alcoholism, drug-abuse or prostitution, when you find that you want/need to change things, you'll find there's a lot of help and support out there (and here, of course!).
You never know where it might take you !
Look at what it's given me !
Eventual happiness ! And I never thought I'd be saying that a few years ago !!

Hugs,
Angela. xx.

OK Cristine and Angela, I will try to answer this without making it too hard for anyone.

how can you plan something you don't even understand at the time

There has to be a time when you realize what is going on with you in the first place. The first step of planning anything is to research all the information you can find out on any given subject. Next is to set up goals or objectives. Finally you create a plan to set things in motion to accomplish those objectives. I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about that.

You took "planning" way out of context of what I was talking about in the first place. The context was a TS gal transitioning, not some clueless guy walking down the street who has yet to discover he is TG. I realize someone can be messed up with alcoholism or drug addiction before they realize they are TS. For that matter, knowing they are different for an "unknown" reason very will could be the cause of abuse.

The entire principle of this thread was that you cannot go into transition haphazardly or you're likely to have serious problems.

Hugs,
Marsha

Cristine, I'm sorry it came across to you that way, that wasn't really my intention. It was meant to be "let me try and put what I said in simpler terms to try and remove any confusion." You and others have added so many wonderful valid points. In no way do I have all the answers. What prompted this thread in the first place is real people that I know having gone through many of these issues. I constantly try to point out to the newer gals the pitfalls of the past so they can learn from our mistakes and have a better life than us.
Hugs,
Marsha

Hi again, everyone--

Planning for transitioning is a must, I'll agree.

Figuring out who you are, as well as what is happening, is a must. I have said from the word go that nobody holds a gun to our heads and says, "you will start looking, dressing, and living like a woman from now until you die." I have also said that if this is a sexual turn-on, it's the most inconvienient and expensive (not to mention the most frustrating) one I can think of.

To transition correctly, the costs are staggering. Not just the money, but everything else. Even those of us who simply go full-time without "The Operation" can (or should)see the costs involved.

Finally, planning your future is a must. You cannot plan everything, but if you have some ideas, write them down or at least have some idea. While I do not plan at this time for the operation, I have had plans in place to go full-time when I am good and ready.

I did so because it is important not only to see what you'll lose, but what you'll gain.

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

Thank you Mina, that's all I was trying to say.
Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha,

Sorry if I didn't explain clearly enough the point I was trying to make, when I explained the earlier part of my life.

What I was trying to say was that I had a very strong plan in place to continue to "deny" my true self, and remain living the male "lie" for the rest of my life !!

Of course, when I found that plan totally untennable, I had to re-plan my future life, which I have done, in some detail !

My "core point" was that I arrived "here" in my life, despite everything I'd planned previously, not that I hadn't planned my transition!
I just hadn't, originally, planned to transition.

Hope this clears up any mis-understanding of what I was trying to say.

Hugs,
Angela. xx.