Hi Girls.
Yes I still keep an eye on the forums. Couldnt resist contributing my tuppence worth to this one.

Porsha said QUOTE: "Transsexualism will never be accepted it will only ever be tolerated. " UN QUOTE.

I am sorry If I disagree with this. I base my POV on my experience at work.. I work in a very Public place as I have mentioned before and I have so many comments either of support or interactions that show non predjudice just one person relating to another.

The thing is this. Depending upon what country you happen to live in makes a huge difference to how you are accepted. Here in the Uk like most other countries the reactions can be down to regional differences in culture. What does that mean ? well for instance living and working in a large city can engender different reactions to that in the provences as Ann Marai's experinces show as an extreme example.In the USA reactions can vary not only in different cities and regions but state by state. I am sure it is a simerler pattern around the world depending upon cutoms.religions and education. ( this is a simplified broadly speaking context).I take everything on an individual basis in my experiences day to day. Most people take no notice of me some may take a double take very few will stare and if they do I stare back at them they soon look away. Only us as someone who is Transgendered can educate someone . We do that by being natural being unselfconcious confident and at ease with who we are. If you do not feel like that then I question wether transitioning is right for you after all we do so to be who we truely are. I was allways 10 times more self concious in guy mode than I ever was in femme mode my true natural state.

I reconise that I am lucky to be living and growing up in a reasonably enlightened country and know that there is always an outside chance of someone deciding to pick or target me because of what Iam in their eyes. But you could say the same for everyone else out there getting on with their lives facing the chance of a mugging or being jumped upon and beaten up as has happened in the last few years and has allways been the case throughout history.

Yes unfortunatly many who transition end up either job less ,homeless,cast adrift and alone. the reasons are usually many but I would postulate that its most likely that they did not plan their transition and steam rollered into it.

I followed a carefull 5 year plan to ensure a decent Job to get everything in place to enable myself to carry on with living and others have managed to do so all around the world in many different countries . What makes those women different to the ones that failed ? Probably the same reasons that those who have no gender Dysphoria do so. Lack of support life skills education and circumstance.

I know far too many Transwomen to mention all their names who do succeed successfully to intergrate and be accepted and live normal everyday lives. The comon denominator is usually one of skills that are valuable in society that dosent preclude them continuing in their lives as before.

Sure it may not allways be easy or straightforward. Yes I know some that are prostitutes but they are smart intelligent women who have their own plan and usually get out of that game once they have enough money to do all the surgery SRS , FFS etc to make them feel whole and happier with themselves.

The use of drugs be it legal or illegal can be common in the Tg community. Buit at the end of the day its down to personal responsibilities that we make our choices in life.
No one owes us anything in this world or life other than respect and hop[efully some understanding but its not a given.

So over the years as more and more women follow their true identity and of course Men dont forget the issues transmen can also face .....more people in society will become used to seeing and interacting with us that over time acceptance will happen much like it has to a certain extent with the Gay community.

We owe it to ourselves and the future generations to just be normal human beings getting on with life ,careers,families and being like everyone else struggiling day to day to keep a roof over our head and food in our stomachs,and freindships and enjoy what we can get out of life.

I never complain about my lot in life i see what needs tobe done to change anything about it knuckle down and get on with it. I am not the most convincing woman you will ever see. but I am a woman and the way I interact with others convinces them that I am and thus i am treated as one by 98% + of the populace out there.

I might sound a bit hard nosed but that may be why I survive I cant say.The only Label that I allow to be attached to me is that of HUMAN BEING.

I could go on but I hope you get the giest of my point.

SUB NOTE:

I had been doing some research looking into suicide rates of TS for an article for the Tranny tribune. My research is incomplete as finding figures for Ts suicides is not that readily avaliable to give an accurate count compared to other sections of society.as far as I have found so far is that it is NOT higher than any other section of society and may be slightly lower especially for those who have transitioned the rates may actually be lower than the average for their society they live in. This is still a work in progress and I will only publish my research when Iam satisfied I have collated all the data sufficeintly to make a half decent assesment. ( a very difficult task I may add due to lack of figures).



I will now go and disappear again untill I see another topic that gets my juices flowing.

Thanks so much for contributing to this thread Sarah. I hope all is well. What you said about planning transition or steam rollering into it is the simple subject this thread has been about. It is not about figuring out who you are, but what you do once you figure that out. My transistion has been unbelieveably smooth whether I'm tolerated or accepted. And as you said it can vary by location, I would not want my car to break down in certain areas.

Thanks again for your great comments,
Love,
Marsha

As most here will know I've recently moved to a new chapter of my life. I'm now a mature woman, the person I've always wanted to be.
Having glanced through a few of the posts here I note that some say they plan their transitional journey. I think that it is not always possible to plan the transition. When does transition start? Is transition the same as the real life experience (RLE)?
In my opinion they are two different things, although the RLE may be part of that transition.
I believe that I've been transitioning all of my life. I've always known that I wasn't the boy I was born as. However being born in 1950 I had to meet society's expectations of me, I had to prove I was a boy/male. At school I hated playing football and cricket, I saw them as masculine sports and I avoided them wherever possible. Throughout my school days I took every opportunity to be the real me and wore female clothes whenever possible. At 16 1/2 years old I joined the army. Even whilst in the army I dressed whenever I could. I got married at 22, fathered a son and a daughter. Again I dressed in female clothes whenever possible. I stayed with my wife for 33 years before I finally left her. I knew that if did nothing about it I would never to be the real me. After leaving my wife life moved on a lot faster. Now I started to plan the way ahead. This meant going through the RLE followed by surgery. Because of my advancing years I decided that breast augmentation and facial feminising surgery were not to be part of my transition. Now three years later that chapter has ended. I've had my op. I'm there at last and I'm now starting the new chapter. Another chapter may well start in 5 weeks time when I get married, this time as the bride.

One thing I not is that I did not undergo Gender Reassignment Surgery which is carried out on transitioners to help make them complete females. I received Genital Reconstruction, surgery that is routinely carried out on females. I was seen as being a woman when I underwent my surgery.

I have been following this thread with interest over the last few weeks,and I must say that it has created some healthy debate,which can only be a good thing.From my point of view I can`t comment on the drug abuse or prostitution issue,as these are things I`ve never been involved in or exsperienced.
I would like to comment on Marsha`s point about planning your transition,as I have been living full time now for the past 2 weeks.I agree with Marsha up to a point,but I feel it`s more about preparation than planning,there is a slight but important difference.When I say preparation I mean preparing others for what you are about to do.I agree with Carren and Danique that this is not a life style choice,transition for a true transsexual is something we have no control over and is something we have to do!!
Having said that,we do have control on how we prapare others for what we have decided to do.I decided I wanted to start living full time back in April this year,so I set a date for this momentus event,september the 1st this year.Then I spent the next 4 months PREPARING and educating family members,friends and customers about transexxualism and what was going to happen.
This gave people time to digest and process the information to reach a dission on whether they would be comforable with it or not.As the date got closer I became more feminine in appearance,so when the big day came it was only a small change and not a big shock to people.Transitioning this way has meant that I have saved my marriage,my friends and all my customers and to be able tocontinue with my business.
I`m not saying that this will work for everyone,but preparation and a little forward planning has worked for me.
Hugs and kisses,
Michelle xxx

I do think everyone is taking the word planning way to literally. I'm not saying on day one do this, day two two that. I'm saying take the time to educate yourself on the things you might face in transition and the various expenses related to transition. The whole idea is to remove or soften the blow of surprises that can turn your life upside down. Michelle said it nicely, preparation.

What Carren said about forget the planning, just get on with it is fine and dandy if you have the resources to do that. If you barely could pay your rent or put food on the table, what would you do if you lost your job because word got out that you were going to transition? How about a divorce that puts you out on the streets like it has to some gals here at TW. We all face different situations and having a good idea of how others have dealt with them can only help. By the way Carren, according to your blogs you are PLANNING on having SRS. Why bother planning, one of these days you might just blindly stumble on a scalpel.

Here is one more example to help you understand planning. Some SRS doctors require you to have the hair removed in the genital area before SRS. Somehow I don't think you are going to walk in there without having it done. Might you just PLAN on taking care of that before the big day?

Most people don't just blindly go through life, they try to have some sense of order. Simple things like getting up in the morning, going to work, eating dinner and going to bed. Pretty routine, but doing so is planning your day so it makes the best sense. Eventually you take it for granted but you still did plan it at one point.

I think many of you are arguing against planning just for the sake of arguing. Everything in life gets planned one way or another. All I'm saying is get educated about what is involved so you can plan things better. Is that so tough to understand?

Hugs,
Marsha

Ok see where we are heading here. Definitions thats where.
Definitions of planning. Definitions of preparation.definitions of transistioning.

Now unless you dont have such ideas in your mind such as about transistioning you DO NOT sponteiniously transition. You cogitate...its on your mind...you think about ways it can be approached, how it can be achieved,its repercussions in your life.

Like it or not you have been both preparing and planning.
Any preparation is always a prelude to a plan formulated.

All that differs is the time scales involved. some do it very quickly usually via the private route. Others may rely on their national health services. But no action is a sponteinious action. It has been on your mind for some time. you may have a vague plan you may have some detailed timetable. But I think the chances of finding a transwomen out there who never ever thought that something was wrong with their lives,that something didnt match up,that something needed to be done never having such thoughts before formulating a way to resolve that issue. Is as likely as finding a unicorn. it just dosent happen.......that someone has never thought about the process in some way seeked information and answers. There is not one woman out there who one day was living happily as a guy then the next day decides that she is actually a woman and arranges surgery etc just like that. Ergo: planning is required a fact .

What may happen after you have made plans is things happening quicker than anticipated or life intervening to put back cancel or change a plan. No matter how detailed or how lose I defy anyone in here to tell me that absolutly nothing was planned about how they are to transition and how it would be achieved..That they didnt prepare in any way to transition. To prepare is to be working to some kind of plan.
I will be facinated to here from those of you out there who HAVE sponteiniously transitioned.

Thank you Sarah. Carren I do understand your hands are tied as far as any timetable and I hope you don't think I'm calling you stupid in anyway. I'm sure you have taken the time to understand the process so you can ready yourself for each step along the way, that is the point I've been trying to make. For those already undertaking transition, this may seem pretty basic, but that is not who I started this thread for. I started this thread because of the abundance of newcomers who don't realise what is involved. Also some that are maybe just wannabe's. Transition is a life changing event in our lives, not a dressup party at the local pub.
Hugs,
Marsha

I still think we are getting mixed up between transitioning and the real life experience. Think of it the transition from birth to death can take a lifetime. In a similar way the transition from male to female or female to male can take a very long time. However the real life experience that most of us go through lasts a relatively short time when compared to one's life. My transition started off relatively early in my life but my real life experience started in December 2006 (when I was 56 years old) and effectively ended in March 2008 when I applied for my Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC). It was on receipt of my GRC that I was legally a woman. My transitional journey however continued for a couple more months until I underwent my genital reconstruction as a woman.

I'm sure lots see their real life experience as being transitioning, hence the reason some say that it occurred very quickly.

Alina

Cristine, thanks for your wonderful remarks. We have enjoyed a long and wonderful friendship, and I look forward to sharing many more years with you, Cass, Julie and Harry.

Mina, I have been saying for years that we need to establish our own autonomous political identity independent of the LGB agenda ("Tapestry," Fall 2005 Edition "Give Us Back Our T" by Robyn Webb) Not a popular opinion, but since the HRC betrayal, more pivotal national activists (Vanessa Edwards Foster, Ethan St. Pierre, Mara Kiesling) have come round to my way of thinking.

Karri, nice to hear from you again. I remember when you began your recovery. Happy anniversary.

Finally, until one has walked a mile in another's shoes (or pumps, as the case may be), best to reserve judgemental opinions. It's awfully hard to bear in mind how one's actions might reflect on the community when the room rent is due, the stomach is growling or the estrogen is running low.

Hi, everyone!

Three quick thoughts--

1. Planning (or developing a plan) may not have been the best choice of words. My personal plan is not tied to a timetable, but to certain events if/when they come to pass. That is my choice to make, as is any move toward 100% living and my own Real Life Experience. On the other hand, I already live most of the time as a woman now, so the last few things I need to do, while major, won't be that big a shock. There is nothing wrong with looking ahead and thinking through the ramifications of what one is doing; we do it with everything else, from work to retirement. Why not plan your RLE or transition?

2. Having said that, there is a marked difference between transitioning and the Real Life Experience. I won't go into specifics here (mainly because I have done so here), except to say that I feel that RLE is a crock. It sets guidelines that may/may not be realistic from people that are not and will not be undergoing the experience based on faulty datum from norms that were set back too many years ago and based on standards that were (and are) not based on today's world. It sets up to be either total success or total failure, as I understand it. (I reserve the right to be wrong here, however.) Life is not pass/fail. Why should the RLE be that way?

3. I'd love to see us as T-people "establish our own autonomous political identity independent of the LGB agenda." First of all, however, I think we need to get in agreement what that will look like. I have seen so many arguments here on everything from what transitioning is/isn't to the definition of a transsexual. We have to agree, in concept if not in principle, to our terminology--or we will never be able to get enough of us to stand firm against those who would strip us of our rights.

I do have my flame-resistant bra and panties on this afternoon, so feel free to fire away.

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

True that carving a timetable for transition in stone can often just set ourselves up for disappointment down the line. To each their own, and in their own time, but sometimes it can be helpful to set a series of smaller goals along the way. I think this is a useful appraoch in many other areas, as well.

There has been much discussion over the past year concerning what form trans political unity will take, and it's already taking shape. Mara Kiesling achieved a large part of this in being able to bring a trans specific version of ENDA to a Congressional subcommittee, and even Barney Frank is warming up to the cause. In fact, we are only a few commitments away from a majority vote on this legislation during the 2009 session.

All American participants are encouraged to contact their Congressional Representatives to make your support for H.R. 3686 known. You can find contact information for the Representative in your district at:

https://forms.house.gov/w[...]e.shtml

Better still, locate your Representative's local office and make an appointment to visit with them. This goes a long way toward emphasizing that we are everywhere, contrary to the belief of some elected officials who might be under the impression that their constiuency would be unaffected by such a bill.

I think you have a very good head on your shoulders and I appreciate your real world approach to this issue that faces us on this board. I am very new and you took the time to drop me a line on my blog. I appreciate that. As I say in my comments I need all the help I can get. I am trying to work things out with my wife of 11 years we have been together since Thanksgiving 2004. We have two young boys and I really don't want to lose my family. I am one of those who always thought it selfish to transition but your post has made me think that maybe it isn't true. I have been having suicidal thoughts as I sometimes feel death would be better than to put my family through losing dad by him becoming a her. I guess I don't even trulyknow where I fit into the gender scale and my wife says she can live with the dressing but not a gender change. I see a psychiatrist and he told me last visit when I finally admitted to him that I wanted to start a hormone regime. He said it wasn't his specialty and that he thought I would have to go to Portland Oregon OHSU. to get that type of therapy. I am doing hebals now to get softer skin, less hair. I want to be female, but is it worth risking everything for my wishes? Karen

Hi Karen,

"It's all about you." Those are words I still here from time to time by my wife of 30yrs and it really upsets me to hear them. But I love her dearly and I pray that our relationship can withstand this storm. Numerous times I have wondered if they would be better off without me, that the whole world would be better off without me. I believe only one thing allowed me to get through that, friends. Most of my friendships first developed here at TW, eventually branching out to my own city. So number one it is important for you to have some sort of a support group. It doesn't have to be an official group, just a circle of friends to be there for each other. That is what TW has always been about.

Right now your wife can accept the dressing and that is a big plus. One thing that may help the next step is that you do see a gender specialist, even if you have to travel aways. It's not like you have to move in with them. Just a visit once a month or so to help you determine who you really are. I think your wife will see you making that effort and not just jumping into things. The other key is "trust", she has to be able to trust you. Make her your bestfriend, your confidante.

Is it worth it? I think being the real you is worth it. I didn't say being TS and transitioning into a woman, just being the real you no matter what that is. The first thing you must do is figure out who is the real you.

Hugs,
Marsha

Cristine--

I don't think things are easy for any of us transitioning, especially for those with a concience, letting the side down, dissapointing family freinds and partners. Trying to conform and be ''normal''

First off, let me say that normal isn't even a setting on my dryer.

**more serious tone of voice here**

First: I think it's the family and friends thing that hold many of us back. I have never conformed to standards; my parents would have had my hide if I did. They encouraged me to be myself (within obvious reasons, course). Would the Momma be unhappy with me if I just outed myself? Oh, yes. Disown me? Maybe.

Would she ask if (1) I was sure about this and (2) would I be truly happy, and maybe (3) have I thought out all the ramifications of this action?

Yes to all three questions. Life in the Mina lane means you'd better take a hard look at all of those questions, and a dozen more.

Second: My SO is well aware that I wear women's clothing. She's not dumb; we have had a few discussions over the years about this. To her, it's just clothing. Since I wear little makeup in her presence (usually a clear lipstick if any, and mascara) and have promised to not wear skirts and dresses when she is around, she's okay otherwise. We've discussed my breast growth, as I can't really hide that anymore. She does not understand the hair removal thing, nor my purse.

But...she grew up a tomboy. She prefers more manly things than I, and if I didn't know better, would say she has GID as well. She keeps her hair in a man's cut, her nails short, often wears men's clothing (especially shoes), and is interested in more manly things, such as sports.

AND...she knows I am content looking and living like I do. She knows I am better off now than I was when we first met, and she sort of understands why.

So all this to say sitting at home in her clothes wouldn't faze her, with the exception of some of her dresses and lingerie. (The strapon thing would separate her head from her shoulders, however.)

Finally: Wanting it (SRS/GRS) now and "sod it" attitude--I feel that is dangerous. Like it or not, there's a reason for RLE. There are so many things to consider, and yes, to plan for. Hair removal is one, and yes, I've looked at it recently. I'd say it is in one's best interests to consider all sides, and look at what you gain...as well as what you most certainly will lose.

Will I ever go full time? I admit to being closer now than I ever have been. It's no longer something I dream of...it's becoming more of a necessity.

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

Robyn,I find your contributions fascinating and I love your tolerance and humanity-cant say much as I,m a cross-dresser -only 'one of' those chaps who dress up in the pub' -if only! What THE HELL( SORRY i SAID A RUDE WORD) are we supposed to do-start our own Tupperware parties?
One of the many things I learnt in AA(SOBER NOW19 YEARS) was to accept the things I cannot change....etc-you Know the rest and that if you want 'to make god laugh-tell him your plans! I also learnt that some of the finest and bravest people that I have met in my life were alcaholics,Lesbians,homosexuals,homeless and poor people and that the most dangerous and sanctimonious prigs were those who set up some norm that 'Society' was supposed to enshrine
Thank you and hugs-sort of,Nina Papillon=xx

Cristine, thanks for bringing this thread back to life. Scanning through the posts you find a mixed idea of what planning really means. Some see planning as step 1 step 2 step 3, and that is probably furthest from what I had in mind when I started this post. Yes planning can be simple like "It is time to start facial hair removal, I should find out what it cost." But my view of planning is having an alternative plan when "OMG, I didn't realize it cost that much, I can't afford it." happens. True planning looks at the what ifs involved in any action. Often we don't want to think about the negative possibilities of our actions. I think that is how the go with the flow, just do it people think. I am a firm believer in what Nina said about not worrying over what you can't change, I call that "It is what it is." But I think some decide too quickly that they can't change something when in fact they very possibly can with time and planning. Relationships are probably the most fluid item we deal with in transition. We can change and others can change given education and time. Does that happen always? Of course not, but why give up too soon?

Twenty, thirty, forty years ago there was little information easily accessible regarding transgender and transsexualism. But this is 2009 and information is available at our fingertips. Forums like this express lifetimes of experiences we all can learn from. There is no need to go with the flow when you can help shape your future by making the effort to plan. Being shortsighted and focusing only on the end result will surely leave you disappointed. It is the setbacks along the way that can lead to depression, substance abuse and desperate measures to make ends meet. I understand what a TS goes through knowing they need to transition. Anyone can transition. The difference is I want them to transition AND be happy.

Hugs,
Marsha

Cristine--

Agreed. (Still...the shock value of that did make me giggle a bit....)

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

I can't imagine there being too many gals like what you are describing Rose. Personally I've never communicated with one. It just seems that something seriously had to be missed or a who cares approach was taken for a guy to make it to SRS. I can't imagine getting that far and doubting ones intentions. If anyone out there has an appointment that is paid for and is having second thoughts, I will step in for you, lol.
Hugs,
Marsha

Rose--

I agree with Marsha--if you get to the point of "The Operation" (SRS/GRS), you've undergone pert near everything one could conceivably throw at you--either you're a "viable candidate" for it or you're not. In the last eight years I've been on TWeb, I've only heard of one, maybe two cases where someone underwent "The Operation" and then had second thoughts.

Having said that, however, I also agree that anyone that has second thoughts prior to "The Operation" is TG, and should not be allowed "The Operation" because they most certainly will regret it.

Now I'm going to get ready for some flame-mail...bear in mind this is to provoke thought, not anger.

Not everyone should undergo "The Operation!

There are a number of people who should undergo SRS. Please don't get me wrong on this! The only way for them to live is to take the final step, and I encourge those who have need to do it for their own good.

But, I suspect the greater majority of those contemplating it might be better served if they simply lived the life. If done properly, the only difference is that dangly bit between your legs.

My rationale is as follows:

IF

1. You are under a doctor's care and on hormones/anti-androgens,
2. You have undergone either full electro or laser hair removal,
3. Your voice has been coached and you sound feminine,
4. Your mannerisms also have become feminine,
5. You pass for female more than male, AND
6. You are totally indistinguishable from a woman (except for the spare parts)...

THEN AND ONLY THEN

Could you probably mold into daily life as a woman with little or no problem.

Please be advised that these six items are not hard and fast. I can come up with another 10-12 things. My goal is not to produce a checklist to see where you are; instead, it's designed to engage the mind and think through some options.

If one were to use this line of thought, however--this would mean a lot of work changing your identification, etc. But if the only thing left of your manhood is hanging between your legs, and you're a woman otherwise--who's to know?

Since many among us could not totally fulfill all six (or more) criterion above, and may not want "The Operation", then that takes a certain amount of pressure from one's life. In addition, it would also free up the ability for those who need SRS to get it without extensive wait times.

Personally, I am still looking at all options. But as of this second, I'd rather live full time and forgo SRS than to undergo the knife with money I don't have and can't get. And since I live mostly full time anyway, that next step is a lot easier for me to undertake for now. Anti-androgens are not being prescribed for me at this point, and laser hair removal might be started next year. Voice work is already underway. (The fact I sing is actually getting in my way to start with.)

Flame retardant clothing is on. Fire away!

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

Mina, I'm not going to argue over your list. Probably for some those are all valid, but I do think you have overlooked the most important factor. That is, what will it take to give a gal the confidence to comfortably live her life? Although I have full intentions of having surgery when I can afford to, right now I am completely at peace with who I am and the life I now live. I am confident I could happily go on with my life regardless if I have surgery. My opinion has always been nobody knows what you have in your pants unless you tell them. But that is me, for others surgery may be what gives them the feeling of being complete, therefore giving them the desired comfort level which allows them to live the life of their choosing.
Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha--

Good and valid point. Confidence is a key factor, no doubt.

The reason for NOT listing that, however, was simple. One could have all the confidence in the world that they could live comfortably as a woman.

BUT if they still look like a man in drag, they could sing a low "G" and have no feminine vocal inflection or voice, have hair where a woman usually doesn't (and I'll let others determine where that is), and aren't at least on estrogen...all that confidence will do is get them read like a cheap romance novel.

Still, I do agree that confidence is a key factor. As a music director, I have told my choruses that if you can't (or won't) do it now in rehearsal, you won't do it on stage. In a very real sense, if you don't go out as a woman in the "now", you won't do it in your RLE or after "The Operation."

Good point and well taken!

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

Mina, I never said confidence as a passing woman. I believe it is all about being comfortable with yourself. Yes for me it has been very important that I pass and I am very fortunate for my birth features and what 4 1/2 years of HRT has done enabling me to pass rather well. But if a gal happens to be born with extreme masculine features, she should not have to give up. If she can accept who she is knowing that she may never likely pass, so be it. I do believe many of the basics should be taken care of first nonetheless like facial hair removal, HRT and a bare minimum of 1 year RLE. I also believe one needs to be financially stable in one form or another and I believe often that is where many are lacking. Without the financial ability such as a job to take care of yourself, finding new work as a TS gal is only going to be that much more difficult. It doesn't matter what the laws say, there will be discrimination. So being able to take care of yourself down the road is a big part of planning. Planning doesn't stop with surgery.
Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha--

Confidence, being comfortable with yourself...sounds almost like two different things. Both of which one should have. I see them as two items, primarily for the reasons I outlined above. Without confidence, you'll never go outside your home dressed. You can be confident...and still not pass.

Being comfortable is another story. You can also be comfortable, and not pass...but not care. That's why I see it as two distinct items, related but not quite the same.

Please note that I never said that one should give up because one has extreme masculine features. (Take a good look at my schnozz, for example. Nothing petite there!) What I DID say is that, if one hasn't taken the time to at least make a passing attempt to look, sound, and act like a woman--and perhaps live as such on the weekends if nothing else--that perhaps one might wish to reconsider what they are thinking, regardless of comfort level or confidence. I feel that you need to do all you can, if you're going to live as a woman--and have a comfort level and confidence to match your preparation. Far too many people think it's all about makeup, shoes and skirts, and do not make adequate plans or preparation..

You and I know better.

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

Hello. Can I introduce myself properly. I am Cassandra, Cristines partner. Firstly I must congratulate all the girls that have contributed to this thread, Well reasoned, thought out comments, tinged with hearfelt sadness and hints of what many would see as failures, I am certainly no wordsmith and sometime have difficulty in expressing myself in my writing. Robyn, we have been freinds a long time, I have never been one realy for chat rooms or even sites such as this, But no person should feel they have failed after what you have been through, knowing somthing of your personal history, my heart goes out to you, I concur with Crissie, somone to be admired and loved for their honesty and determination, somone who has achieved so much.

Now as for so called planning, While I do agree there are umpteen reasons to plan ahead, very often we take one step forward and two steps back. I have no imediate plans for SRS, I am happy as I am at the moment, one day that might be somthing I might contemplate after due consideration.

I take Mina Sakura's point, better to bide ones time, rather rush in and repent at leasure.

As I said I am not a great fan of Trans sites, seen a few that realy did nothing for me. I'm not easily influenced or persuade into action by others, I do my own thing.

Just because I do not post it does not mean I am not reading the posts with interest. I quite like it here,

A very good point Crissie did make was, ''Everyone has a right to their own opinion, valid reasoning, etc.'' I'm still learning things about her, and how she feels, just by reading her posttings.

CSW x

Mina, I feel confidence and being comfortable with yourself can be one of the same because you can't have one without the other in my opinion. One literally feeds the other. I guess where confusion may lay is with what confidence are you talking about. Passing? Your look? Your sense of being accepted? Or maybe just being at peace with your inner self. I think the answer is going to come down to personalities. Do you beat up on yourself by always doubting your abilities? Or do you say "Look out world, whether your ready or not here I come." But as long as you are not comparing apples to oranges, I think confidence and being comfortable with yourself is one in the same.
Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha--

I have put a lot thought in on how I wanted to respond. Before going any further, I think we agree in principle that the life you and I live is not all fun and games. For us, it is a very necessary life-choice.

I suspect what we are and have been discussing may actually be two different topics. You are looking at getting out there, and becoming comfortable with who you are. I am looking at the topic from the perspective of actually living as a woman, not just going out to go out. (If I’m wrong, I know you’ll let me know.) Therefore, on the one hand I don’t want to disagree with you; in a very real sense you are correct, although to a point. Both confidence and “comfort in one’s skin” can very easily be viewed as the same thing.

I just don’t see it that way. Both are very necessary, but both are very different to me.

I go back to what I said before: If you still look and sound like Avery Schreiber (and for those of you who don’t know who that is, look him up), all that confidence and comfort level will do is get you read faster than a comic book. I liken it to the doctor that, instead of putting erythromycin or silver nitrate in a baby’s eyes at birth, grabs a bottle of hydrochloric acid by mistake and blinds the child. He was confident he was doing the right thing, but in reality was not.

So it is in our world, the world of the TS. One should start with confidence if one is ever going to walk out of the house dressed. One should be comfortable in doing so, although many of us when we ventured out into the real world for the first time en femme (myself included) got a real rush from the doing of same. That's not comfort, that’s adrenaline. Comfort level feeds the confidence, which raises the comfort level, which increases the confidence, and so forth.

I have seen the results of misguided confidence. One time I saw a gent in a pink, frilly, Little Bo Peep dress walking down the street. Looked like the above referenced Avery Schreiber in a dress. If it were halloween, it wouldn’t have registered. This was mid-May, however. Did that person care? Probably not. The fact I could read him at 1/10th mile, from the opposite side of a busy four-lane street should be indicative of what I am getting at.

Another story, this out of my own life: Once, more than a few years back, I ran into a “professional drag queen.” She not only read me, but she read me the riot act. Makeup was all wrong. Nails looked awful. Wig looked tacky. Clothing was not femme enough. Jewelry looked like Walmart castoffs. Just raked me up one side and down the other. I slunk out of the coffee shop, and felt pretty bad that evening. The next day I returned to the same little coffee shop where I had been the day prior, and the waitress showed me this gal’s picture. Flawless makeup, beautiful nails, diaphanous gown, really nice jewelry, hair all done up, and so forth. She then looked at me and said, “The difference between the two of you is obvious. She dresses in drag...you’re actually out there, living as a woman. There’s a huge difference, and I wanted to tell you that.”

That’s why I believe as I do. I can’t doubt what I look like, and I sure can’t be afraid to go outside dressed, or I might as well hang it up. I am comfortable in my skin, and I am confident when I am out and about.

Your quote: “Do you beat up on yourself by always doubting your abilities? Or do you say ‘Look out world, whether you’re ready or not here I come.’ But as long as you are not comparing apples to oranges, I think confidence and being comfortable with yourself is one in the same.”

All I am saying--and I will stand by this until I am proven otherwise--is simple. If all you want is to go out somewhere and dress for fun, fine. You will need both confidence and a certain comfort level. If, on the other hand, you decide you want to live as a woman, you’d better have taken care of business before hand...that includes confidence, comfort in your own skin, and yes, frankly, a little bit of planning and work on your part.

And that’s all that I’m saying. Living as a woman is not a game, not something that you decide to try on. For me, and I suspect for you, it’s actually a fairly serious thing, not to be undertaken lightly. It doesn’t mean I have it all down pat. It does mean I have worked at a lot of things, and that preparation gives me a certain confidence level. I have learned to be comfortable in my skin, and that feeds my confidence a bit more. I quit caring about what others think about my appearance, and that helps both my confidence and my comfort level.

Do you get the difference in what I am saying? If not, then we will have to agree to disagree. Because the way I feel is that, if all you want is to go girl for a few hours, or a weekend, fine. Get comfortable in your skin, ramp up the ol’ courage, and go have a great time. After all, it’s only for a few hours/an evening/a weekend. Essentially, no harm no foul.

But, if you’re going to live as a woman then you want to work at blending into society, and that means (to me) blending in with other women--not standing out from them. You have to have a great deal of courage, you’d better be comfortable in your own skin, and you’d better look, talk, and act like a woman or you will stick out. That is the simple, sad truth of the matter, as I know you are well aware of.

As I have said before: I respect you, and I respect your opinions, because we do think much alike. We may not always agree, but we both know that this isn’t something one should undertake lightly or ill-advisedly. In that, we work well together.

Luv ‘n hugs,

Mina

Mina, that was a terrific post. I think we are saying the same thing actually and what I mean with the confidence and comfort is that even if you don't pass you can still live as a woman, but in order to do so it will help to have both a level of comfort and confidence that allows you to deal with whatever society throws your way. So in essence I very much agree with you because I to believe confidence feeds off of the comfort level you have.

I love the story about the drag queen. It is great that gal is happy with herself but that is not exactly what you and I are after. I use to tell everyone I want to be the nobody at the mall. The person no one notices, no double takes, just another face in the crowd. I feel I now live that life and if it wasn't for the darn telephone, I would probably never hear sir again.

Hugs, and again a great post Mina.
Love,
Marsha

**grins**

It's not the phone I have problems with--until I can afford laser, it's the facial fuzz. It's not like I want to run the epilator there...!

Thanks for the kind words--and I too want to just be another face in the crowd, to blend in.

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

Marsha, et al,
Wow, this has been a very engaging thread to read for certain. And I sure do not want to cast any more discord, into a thread that already has immense points and counter points. I agree with many, but I have my own hypothesis to embrace.( just life's observations) That may or may not beget wrath from the group. So to deviate to a different pathway, and since there are many aspiring TS's here that read these forums trying to get a direction. Yes, confidence, demeanor, and quality of life, and inner being are the basic elements. Should we not summarize the complications that go into a full time TS. This was touched on, not in detail. Things like the first option, hair removal, expense, pain from hair removal. EX, Electrolysis, laser on the arms and hands, yes there is pain, but OMG, the fingers are almost unbearable. NO fun and games here. Or is this in another thread, and I am just out of line here.
Tammy

Tammy--

Can't be much worse than an epilator. You can read about my first experiences with one here.

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

Mina,
Gosh girl, I loved the article and your portrayal in regards to your episodes was done with such humor, I was in tears laughing, but with empathy Thank you, I almost bought one of those instruments of pain, before deciding to go the laser route.
Keep up your splendid blogging...I admire this quality.. Tammy

I found this very interesting Marsha, and yes, there are some alcoholics, drug users and prostitutes in the transggendered community but that is true of most communities. I do however feel that we need to present ourselves in a better light and I firmly believe that that is happening, at least in some parts of the world.

I'm with you on us not being connected to the GLB community, we need to separate ourselves since ours is a gender issue not a sexual one. I hate the fact that we find ourselves neatly pigeonholed with them, and in my experience many of the GLB community don't want us there either.

Being TG isn't all fun and games, but that's not to say you can't have any fun and games along the way. Life is what you make of it and since you're only here for a short time, you'd better make it a good one!

Nikki

Marsha,by sayin that many of the girls here are either drug-users, alcoholics or prostitues is a bit much.
To a certain extent you are right but why rope everyone in together when there are girls here(myself included) that are not, & Will never be drug-users, alcoholics or prostitues.

Being TG is NOT all fun& games as i well know, cos in the last 2 years i've been both verbally & physically assaulted. I had to leave my last home cos mindless thugs had broken every window in my house. sittin there hearin the stones hitting the windows was the most scared & afraid i have EVER been in my entire life. YES i've had lots of knocks,most of them bad but the one thing thats kept me going is the fact that i have a family & friends that are all very supportive of me. YES they were all shocked when i told them, & i feared total rejection from all of them but they've been behind me 100%.


Everyday life is NOT easy by far, but i'm doing very well & i'm happy too so its not all doom & gloom


" when the world gets in my face i say - HAVE A NICE DAY"
Lol xxxxxxxx
Anna-Marie

My thoughts on this.
It's hard dealing with this if a person doesn't understand it. I was that drug addict who didn't know how to deal with what life gave me. A mans body & a womans dream. I was so afraid of rejection I've allways kept who I am to myself & so had to deal with it myself.
Life is hard this made it much harder. That fear of being rejected will never go away.
Drugs became my way of dealing with the fears of life. With them I didn't feel anything.

How to handle life being TG is what we need to get out to people.
How to get that word out to people that need it?

Steph and Robyn have covered most of my comments on the "drug user" issue. I just want to point out anyone who takes prescription medication or drinks alcohol in any amount, is a "drug user". Drug abuse and addiction are different animals. (although many 12-step program members disagree with this view) I won't try to explain the complex issues here. I agree, to say we shouldn't be involved in activities that every other group is DOES make us different. We aren't. We are human beings. Period.

Marsha, can you be more specific about what kind of "planning" you are referring to? I'm still finding your comments on this to be vague. If that many people are having a problem, a list of examples by you would possibly be of assistance to some TW members. You are clear on what you see to be the results but not on your perception of the causes. I'd like to see some examples, or perhaps a comprehensive program for planning transition by addressing these issues, like a workbook.

Marsha,

The HBSOC was a good first step for a society that diid not understand us or how to deal with us. If focused professionals on issues they might miss with the periods inaccurate information on us. I was one of them and I didn't know what was needed.

That said, I find the HBSOC to be rigid. They should be the Guidelines of Care, not Standards. They should be a skeleton on which the meat of treatment is built. Care should be individualized. The idea that you have to resolve a persons psychiatric complaints before permitting transition is ludicrous. In many cases denial of transition is the major contributer to that depression. On the other hand, severe depression, with outer causes, is not going to disappear post-transition. If the client anticipates this, the result can be a sense of hopelessness and an increase in the level of the depression. Not differentiating between the two clients, by following a rigid, unthinking pathway is not the way to treat a transgendered person. When you treat a diagnosis rather than a person you are not giving the best care. Some care-givers are going outside the guidelines....but we've recently seen a top gender therapist censured for doing so. It's as if the medical community is insisting we treat the bodily humors and refusing to acknowledge there may be "wee beasties" causing illnesses. The father protecting the child attitude of the medical community is arrogant and misdirected, especially considering how long it took them to get a clue about us. Their track record is not impressive in GLBT areas.

I understand the issue with ADHD because I need to write to get my thoughts organized. It's one reason I blog. It makes me think things out carefully. I have to take written notes to fully process a lecture. I do much better with written instructions than verbal ones. We each have to work to our strengths.

About that "I'm a RG philosophy" thing mentioned in this thread, I just learned the other day what RG means - Real Girl. Unless "real" means something else than what I think it does then I suppose I support the "I'm a RG philosophy".

I don't consider myself being any less real than any other girl out there. Why should I?
I can't get pregnant, which I guess is a limitation that I suffer from, but I don't consider myself or any other woman who can't have children NOT to be a "real girl".

Maybe I am reading too much into it but if I am not "real", then what am I? A fake? A copy? An illusion? I don't see myself as being fake. Is that how you see yourself?

I see your point Cristina...

When you are able to pass the duck test (If a bird looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck) and people just see you as any other woman then it is easy to just sneak away and go stealth just like you said.
I did that... I went away never to be seen again by most people who knew me, made it hard (but not impossible) for them to track me and restarted my life. That was a good solution for me and I gained more than I lost from that decision.

I think you are right, I took the easy way out. I am hiding and I'm not really supporting others by doing the "out and proud" thing. I don't think I owe it to anyone to do that either, I worked really hard to get where I am. I feel for people who are less fortunate than me and I try to help out if I can, but I don't feel I owe anything.

I guess this is where selfishness and self-interest come together. I am selfish because I have something to give by being open about my history but I decided not to be. And I act in self interest because by doing the out and proud thing, I would ruin what I have worked so hard for.

The real heroines, I think, are the ones who can pass the duck test and are still out and proud even though it would probably be easier for them to go stealth and just "forget". I guess that means people like you Cristina. I admire that kind of courage and strength because I don't have it myself. All I do is come to this site every now and then to exchange ideas and talk to others... Not all of us in hiding have the "sod you mentality, now that I'm ok'', some of us are just not strong enough or have the will to be out and proud any longer than we had to.

(edited = spelling)

I didn't mean to come off so strong in my first post so if I did, I'm sorry for that.

But if in your eyes being a real girl means you must be a genetic girl then I guess I am not a real girl to you and can never be. That is a little sad though, I figured most transsexuals see themselves as real girls.
I'd be offended if someone told me that I was not a real girl, exactly in the same way as any mtf ts would be offended by being called "him" or "he".
Even those of my friends who know about my history and my genes considers me a real girl and I honestly didn't expect them to be more open minded about what a real girl is than the TS community.

And sorry Marsha, I didn't mean to hijack your thread.

Ok, I see the point when I reread Minako's post, Real Girl implies a genetic girl. I didn't know that but I still do think that real equals genetic seems a little "old". Kind of like saying that transsexuals must be heterosexuals or they are not really transsexual. Enough of that, obviously real didn't mean "real" in the sense I thought it did.

Transsexuals transition, that's what they do... and planning for that is great. There is the risk of losing your family, friends, job or even life and planning will help keep that risk down. I wouldn't put transition up for too long though, the risk will never entirely go away and there are only so many possibilities you can plan for.

I figured I had it all planned out but when I was in a position where I could pass rather well but those who didn't figure me out were eventually told by those who already knew, I was kind of proud of being TS and had no problems of having an open secret so to speak.
Then something happened that made me reconsider. Some guy that often went to the same night club as me asked me out. I declined the offer even though I was flattered and thought nothing more of it.... Until a few weeks later when he had been told by someone that I was a pre-op TS.
He was absolutely furious and somehow figured that I had "tricked" him. That night ended up with me almost getting raped. I guess he was so twisted he figured I wasn't good enough to date anymore but still good enough to rape. I was lucky to get away with some torn clothes, bruises and a new found fear of people finding out my secret.
I don't know why I am writing this, I never talk about it otherwise. I guess I still blame myself for all the things I could have done to prevent it from happening...

From my experience 99% of people have no problems dealing with my history but that last 1% is what I am worried about.
I know something similar happened to another girl who used to frequent this site. She got raped using a broken bottle and ended up in a wheelchair from what I remember.

I am not proud of my transsexual history but I'm not really ashamed either. It is just something I have to live with. I'm proud of who I am and my history is part of that but I don't want to live with the TS label smacked to my forehead and be subject to other peoples prejudice or hate. In the real world there is real danger.

I'm not that naive to think I have never been questioned or that it will never happen again in the future. I just like it to happen as few times as possible and to keep the people in "the know" as few as possible in fear of the secret slipping out.

Some of us chose the stealth option for whatever reason but things are sometimes more complicated than just being out and proud versus going into hiding.
I'm not strong enough to face an open life anymore but all the more respect goes out to those of you who are. You are doing what I am too afraid to.

I can get really worked up over the attitude of some people towards GLBT persons. This is because I dumped my ignorance derived prejudices and misunderstanding when I moved to CA over thirty years ago, and dumped them when it was pointed out to me I had friends who were in the closet. I was relieved, when I realized I was TG, that I had made these attitudinal changes before I knew I was part of the GLBT community and had refused to admit or deny if I was asked if I was gay, instead responding with a "what difference does it make if I am?" It saved me a lot of guilt when I acknowledged, to myself, my membership in that community.

However, I have to face the fact that my prior responses to GLBT issues was based in ignorance and conditioning and habit and sometimes personal selfishness and not meanness.or intent to hurt. When I get angry at people I am not granting them the same right to be wrong that I gave to myself. Partly this is because I'm not mad at them for myself, I am mad because they are hurting my brothers and sisters in the community, particularly those here at TW. Yet anger makes no friends in addition to not giving these people the same courtesy I was given to listen to a calm presentation and the opportunity to change my position/behavior. After all, many are no different than I was. I've tried to give information to these people and give them the same chance I was given. At worst I merely remain silent and expressionless and look at them. This is usually enough to make them realize I do not agree and do not find their comments amusing. Usually they quickly stop. If the situation offers the opportunity for education I pursue that. Anger can only alienate them, close their minds and lead to self-hate for my past behaviors, usually motivated by ignorance and the desire not to be placed in a group that I now am glad to be part of. Is it any wonder some of us become emotional wrecks in such a world?

I believed that we needed the link with the GLB community because they represented 10% of the electorate while we represented a politically insignificant % of that electorate. The ENDA vote showed how important that support is. All groups but HRC refused to abandon the TG/TS community to secure their own rights. This should show how the activist GLB community understands that we are all free or none of us are free. If ENDA had passed without the T community included, it would have taken far longer for a national protection for us to be passed. It would only have done so after many years and with the social pressure of states like CA granting those rights. The ERA has never passed. a TRA would take far longer to pass than a GLBTA would take. We do, indeed, need to speak up as a separate community, but we should associate with GLB activists on the basis that freedom and civil rights must be for ALL, not some. I would have done the same for the GLB community if the situation was reversed and I admire and appreciate that they saw that they could not accept their rights and not strive to see we had the same rights. Only those who have had their rights denied could so clearly see that freedom must be for everyone or it is for no one. One day They WILL come for You.
Nazi Germany showed this clearly.

Those who would give up a little freedom for a little security deserve neither and will lose both." ---a concept first espoused by a British Statesman in the 18th century.

I have to diagree here, we don't even belong in the LGB, which are all about sexuality, whereas ours is a gender issue. Besides which, they generally don't want us there either, we just all got grouped together by the powers that be who don't understand us.

Before anyone says it, yes, of course some of us are LGB but I believe our 'T' comes before that and is our main issue.

Nikki