Estrogel

Tags : None
  • I am having skin rash problems with patches and am changing to estrogel. At present I am using 2- 100 patches. Whats the equivalent number of squirts of estrogel ?
    <p>ooxxoo</p>
      February 24, 2009 9:46 AM GMT
    0
  • Moderator
    3 1652 3‚ 0
    Hi Joanne.
    I looked this up on Crone, and see you’ve already asked there. I’d listen to Lena, who suggests it could be up to 8 squirts of Oestrogel (6mg per day), or about 2mg of Sandrena. It’s probably impossible to be precise. The science behind why Sandrena is more efficient than Oestrogel makes sense, so it might be more practical to use that instead; there isn’t really enough suitable skin to get 8 squirts of gel on in one day!
    I use 4 squirts a day, which covers my upper legs and butt. I could get another two squirts on my upper arms but I’m avoiding that because it seems to give me occasional spots on the arms.
    I’m currently taking 6mg oral estradiol as well. The risks of bio-identical oral estradiol are severely exaggerated. And it’s much cheaper than gels.
    Ethinylestradiol is the most risky form of oestrogen. Here’s a quote from Lena (a very knowledgeable girl):
    “Birth control pills prescribed to hundreds million women (without liver function tests) contain ethinylestradiol 0.035mg/day on average, which affects liver and blood clotting
    as strongly as oral estradiol 20-50 mg/day.”

    Yes, ONE birth control pill carries the same risks as 20 – 50mg oral estradiol per day.
    Consider boosting your intake from gels with a low dose of oral estradiol. Gel applied to certain parts of the body will be partially wasted, while other parts of the body are not recommended for application, so you are limited to the amount you can get in your system in a day, just as you are with patches.
    xx
      February 25, 2009 12:42 AM GMT
    0
  • Joanne, Lucy covered it really good. I used Sandrena for a couple years and the research i found is one packet pretty much equalled one patch. Sandrena is 1mg estradiol per packet vs estrogel being .75 with 3 pumps so it would take approximate 8 pumps to get the 2mg equivalent of two patches or two packets of Sandrena

    I also encourage you to stay away from ethinyl estradiol. There was a time that it was the only option so nobody cared about its safety, but things have changed. I've been on injections for over a year now and love em. Again there are different products and 1mg doesn't always mean 1mg with another product. I happen to get 5mg estradiol cypionate every two weeks. There is also estradiol valerate but it would take 40-50mg of valerate to equal 5mg cypionate, so be careful about choosing the proper dose.

    Depending on age, oral estradiol tablets are always an option. Factors that need to be considered are cloting risks, liver condition, smoking, drinking, and basic overall health. As lucy said, orals can also be used to supplement another method such as gel.

    An issue rarely discussed is "absorbtion." Whether sublingual tablets, gel, patches or injections, we are all different. Something might be working wonders for your best friend, but is ineffective on you. Your body just might not move various forms of estradiol into your bloodstream as efficiently. Bottomline is you want the most out of the lowest dose necessary.

    Hugs,
    Marsha
      February 25, 2009 3:37 AM GMT
    0
  • Lucy/Marsha

    Thanks for your replies. I had already ordered Estrogel from In House as I had just about used my patches. I apologised on DIYH to members of the latter and Crone for my confusion. I realise that Lena is very knowledgeable. However I will persevere with the Estrogel
    and consider the options you suggested together with those on other sites (There are a few different opinions)
    Cheers
    <p>ooxxoo</p>
      February 25, 2009 5:40 AM GMT
    0
  • I didn't think estrogel..genuine stuff from my doctor/chemist...was as good as good old Premairn in that I found that rubbing on the recommended number of squirts semed to be coarsening my skin and allowing darker hair to grow again...so back on Premarin and 200 Spiro and now I'm smooth and happy again.
    rose
      February 25, 2009 12:57 PM GMT
    0
  • Moderator
    3 1652 3‚ 0
    Suggesting Oestrogel isn’t as good as Premarin is something like saying tea isn’t as good as coffee. Premarin can certainly be effective at feminisation. It is a combination of oestrogens derived from horse urine. Horses are bigger than humans, their oestrogen is quite possibly “stronger”. But they are also horses, and humans are not…
    It’s the next down on the list of risky forms of oestrogen after ethinylestradiol. One does have to be careful with it, but having said that, it has been prescribed to possibly millions of women (more so in the past) as a form of post-menopausal HRT. My mum used to be on it, her GP advised her that 8 years was long enough and she should come off it. Personally I wouldn’t want to use it long term, one should be aware that post-op women ought to be taking an adequate dose of some form of oestrogen for the rest of their lives to prevent osteoporosis and other problems. Health and risk factors therefore become extremely important when considering a hormone regime.
    However, it’s all about dosage and absorption. For most people there is no reason why a sufficient dose of estradiol shouldn’t equal the effects of Premarin. Doctors tend to prescribe as little as possible though, and consequently dosage is not sufficient to achieve the effects of the much stronger horse oestrogen. Some people may react badly to Premarin, others may not absorb estradiol well, but either of those scenarios is probably quite unlikely. So if it works for you then that’s fine, but don’t stay on high risk hormones for too long. Spiro also has risks associated with it, and 200mg per day is not a small dose. Consuming too much potassium is one of the biggest risks, so one has to be constantly careful what is eaten; ie avoiding all potassium rich foods. But I’m sure you know that, Rose. I missed eating bananas amongst other things, and am glad to be off the stuff. The need for anti-androgens at all in fact (even pre-op) is greatly overrated in my opinion.
    Oestrogel doesn’t coarsen the skin or cause hair growth, that would almost certainly be down to taking too small a dose. As we’ve suggested, it would take EIGHT squirts a day to equal the effects of TWO 100mcg patches. No doctor would or should prescribe that, because we simply don’t have enough suitable skin to allow that amount to be used daily. Sandrena however is a viable alternative…
    8 pumps of Oestrogel would contain 6mg of estradiol. As I’ve said it’s probably impossible to be precise, but it is suggested that 2mg of Sandrena is equivalent to 6mg Oestrogel (and two 100mcg patches). There are two possible reasons for the difference in efficiency between Oestrogel and Sandrena:
    Oestrogel is less concentrated; there is a lower estradiol to gel ratio, which could account for poorer absorption. Oestrogel has 0.75mg estradiol in 1.25g gel, Sandrena has 1mg in 1g gel, if I remember correctly. Also Sandrena contains propylene glycol, Oestrogel does not. This is thought to improve the amount of estradiol that actually enters the bloodstream. Hence the unusual looking equivalents.
    But don’t fret about only using gels or patches. If you’re using Oestrogel then boost your intake of estradiol with tablets (such as Elleste, Estrofem, Zumenon). They are extremely safe (se my earlier comment on equivalent risk factor for birth control pills).
    I’d also like to try injections like Marsha, another extremely safe form of HRT (assuming it’s done correctly!) but I haven’t dared asked my GP about this, and wouldn’t want to do it myself. I know some people on the NHS do get injections, but it doesn’t seem to be that common, and certainly not recommended by Charing Cross, my former gender clinic.
    Oh well, pills and gels for me for now.
    xx
      February 25, 2009 1:40 PM GMT
    0
  • Hey--

    I want to know where you're finding Estrogel in pumps!

    I've been getting it in tubes, with a measuring stick, and find that if I apply it three times a day I am getting an adequate amount.

    I also supplement (on really busy days) one 2mg tablet of Estrofem in place of one dose of gel. (And on some weekends, it's all Estrofem. Little Miss Mercury earns both her wings and her nickname on those weekends.)

    Still, I like this better than Premarin or patches; my skin would be chewed up in week on patches. My doc's recommended I consider it, and I tell the doc I am happy with what I am doing now.

    Luv n 'hugs,

    Mina
    Living as the woman I am!
      February 25, 2009 5:39 PM GMT
    0
  • Moderator
    3 1652 3‚ 0
    I get it from my Chemist. I used to buy it from Inhouse, but the last time I bought it they had switched to those toothpaste tubes with a ruler, which are a bit of a nuisance, and I couldn't resist squeezing just that little more out, just to be sure. The ruler idea is SO vague, a thin line of gel contains a LOT less than a thick line, but I guess the only way to judge the correct dosage is to count how many applications you get from one tube, and adjust accordingly with the next tube.
    I have seen pumps on Inhouse since, but it may just be the luck of the draw as to whatever they have in at the time.
    If you're really lucky, you might find some on Ebay, it's rare, but I got some once. Don't worry if it's out of date, it'll be fine.
    Once again (am I getting boring now?) Oestrogel is probably not going to achieve good feminisation on its own, but once you have good breast growth, it can be a good way of getting a maintenance dose long term.
    xx
      February 25, 2009 6:07 PM GMT
    0
  • Eventually I may have to go back to Microdot patches, but I will try both varieties of gel.
    <p>ooxxoo</p>
      February 25, 2009 8:21 PM GMT
    0
  • estrogel in pumps is oestrodose..unopened one I have is made by Besins International, Paris...but my previous was by someone else...not sure who
      February 25, 2009 9:50 PM GMT
    0
  • forgot to add.. use four pumps morning and evening...each pump is about 1.25grams of gel that contains o.75mg of 17B
    spread pumps on top of inner thighs and bicep/shoulders...wait a couple of minutes till it dries...
    i mentioned the gel to someone who was using patches for another medical problem and they said they couldn't see how a quick drying gel could get through the skin...but i said how does medication transfer from patch to skin...that seems a mystery to me...unless the patch material acts as a wick to transfer drug from inner patch to the skin..
    anyway..,you takes your pick...
      February 25, 2009 10:28 PM GMT
    0
  • Moderator
    3 1652 3‚ 0
    I've used Oestrodose in the past, my chemist is currently supplying Oestrogel (brand name) in pumps. Both are made by Besins, as are the toothpaste tubes of Oestrogel that I've had in the past.
    xx
      February 26, 2009 12:32 AM GMT
    0
  • I work with chemicals everyday so here is a quick science lesson. Number one remember everything is made up of particles and in the case of medicine, microscopic particles.

    Gel, like Estrogel or Sandrena is packaged for a one day application. Therefore the microscopic estradiol 17b is mixed into a carrier to allow immediate absorption through the skin layer and into the fat layer below where it then is absorbed into the bloodstream, circulates and fills the estrogen receptors throughout the body. Medicines have what are called a half-life, meaning how long they stay active in a body. Gels have approximate 24hrs so it actually doesn't make any difference if you do one dose a day or split it up. The active ingredient in gel does not remain on the surface all day, actually it is absorbed within an hour in most cases.

    Patches work differently. The 17b molecules are mixed into polymers. Most people have heard the terms, slow release, timed relase, or maybe microencapsulated. What happens is the suspension material gradually breaks down allowing a measured dose to be absorbed into the body. Patches like climara are designed to last a full week, but others like the vivelle dot need to be changed after 3 or 4 days. Patches give you a gradual constant application of estradiol.

    Oral products have a very short half-life before they are flushed out of the body. Sublingually more enters the blood stream prior to passing through the liver, but with each pass through the liver some is flushed out of the body. Swallowing a pill offers other issues including absorption based on the individuals metabolism.

    Injections work based on a measured dose being deposited into a muscle in the body, generally the buttocks or thigh. There are different forms of injectable estradiol that again determine the life of the med in the body. But the key to injections is a measured dose is gradually released over a period of time varying from 10 days to 3 weeks, possibly a month. Injection strength follows a curve where initially the amount of 17b in the blood is low but peaks in the middle and declines after that. You may have heard of the "roller coaster" effect you can get on injections when your last injections is on the down side of the curve and the new injections has not really kicked in yet. Typically that is controlled by finding the right frequency so the new injection and the old one overlap sufficiently to prevent a level of E that is too low.

    I'm posting this more for gals that didn't realize the options that are available. This should also help many to understand why we say 1mg does not equal 1mg.

    Hugs,
    Marsha



      February 26, 2009 1:07 AM GMT
    0