Watched the CNN special "Her name was Steven" last night,...Steven Stanton's transition to a woman (Susan).

It is so amazing to me how we still let Christians push us around. Susan lost her job because of deluded Christians declaring that "if Jesus was there he'd fire her." What about when Jesus said:

"For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." Matthew 19:12

Personally, I propose a Worldwide requirement that one cannot call themselves a Christian without first accepting Jesus' litmus test for determining the true christian faithful, as published in the canonized text,...Mark 16:16-18. A true Christian, "the man who accepts baptism,...will be able to drink deadly poison without harm".

I'll supply the deadly poison,...if they live,...then I say go ahead a trash the Transgender anyway you like.

Janelle

Yes, I agree that there are some Christians (and Judeao-Muslims) who except TG's, but she appeared to me to have been fired from her job as a direct result of the Christian meme.

Reading through the posts here it seems as if those who believe in a god have a more difficult time with their transition.

In the book Tantric Transformation, Osho said, “Start knowing what you really know, and stop believing what you really don’t know. Somebody asks you. “Is there a God?” and you say, “Yes, God is.” Remember: Do you really know? If you don’t know, please don’t say that you do. Say, “I don’t know.”. . . False knowing is the enemy of true knowledge. All beliefs are false knowledge.”

Because of my own interest in what's true (versus identifying with a belief), when the idea of transgenderness presented itself to me, I easily recognized it. That is not suggesting my way is the right way,...it's only right for me. Like Shiva falling in love with the female aspect of himself, it seems easy for me to fall in love with Janelle because no religion (set of beliefs) was stepping between me and her direct experience.

Actually, I got over the Christian meme long ago. For me, the undoing of religious barriers and subsequent indubitable spiritual breakthrough came by way of a continuum of the transformational events. The first to occur consciously happened when I was eight years of age, a few days after an irascible cousin announced to the neighborhood that my dad was not my biological father, which I had not known until this paradigm-shifting announcement. This was a traumatic revelation, but it was nothing compared with the words uttered by my third-grade parochial school teacher, Sister Rose Kathleen, later that week. She said, reading from Deuteronomy 23:2 during daily Bible study, “No bastard shall enter the assembly of the Lord, not even to the tenth generation.” (“Non ingredietur mamzer hoc est de scorto natus in ecclesiam Domini usque ad decimam generationem.”). The newer translated versions of this law, which penalizes children for their parents’ indiscretions, smooth out the wording; for example, the New American Bible now says: “No child of an incestuous union,” an expedient shift in meaning, considering that finding a nonbastard child today is somewhat like seeing someone who doesn’t have a tattoo.

So what does a little boy do when he has been denied something, especially being included in the congregation of the Lord? He pursues it! At least, I did. Therefore, for the next two dozen years, I was a major consumer of religious material, looking for a backdoor into heaven. After all, I felt that I had no choice, for no one, not even God, was going to save a bastard. I had to find a way to save myself, which is fundamentally contrary to Christian beliefs. The New-Age idea advanced by moderates and appeasers is that God the Father changed, and now we can be saved through Jesus, the Son. This idea merely fortified my quest for something more changeless, a more enduring truth. Real truth NEVER changes.

Because I got past clinging to beliefs for my identity I feel I more easily shifted from the fantasy that reality exists for me, to the understanding that I exist for reality. That is a bodhisattvic (or feminine wisdom) understanding,...that compassion is here for reality, not for the incompassionate ego. When you view yourself as existing for reality, instead of the fantasy of it existing for you, personal truth is no longer important,...only the absolute truth is important.

Janelle

I am having a hard time figuring where to start on this Janelle. First off you are falsely generalizing about Christians. I fought a fundamental Christian mega church. Yes they believe the Bible is the word of God and seek answers to common day issues from the scripture. And there are literalists that believe every last word within the Bible. But with that said, they are few, they just happen to be vocal so don't confuse the extremist with everyone. That becomes the same issue with the 911 Muslim terrorists and the peaceful Muslims of the world.

Next is, the Susan Stanton story saved my marriage. I came out to my wife at the end of November 2006. In early spring 2007 the Susan Stanton story broke. My marriage was on the rocks but because of the coverage and comments to the online story, my wife came to understand what being TS really was. Susan had people there that supported her but the extremists put the fear of God into the city council and they fired her, thereby making the news. If it wasn't for the support of the towns people, it would have been a non event and likely would not have made the news. And God only knows where I or my marriage would be today. Sadly, the TG community turned against Susan when she refused to be their poster child spokesperson and espouse everything positive about transgender people. I think she is somewhat like me and dislikes behavior that gives a negative image to the community. I have been fortunate to be able to correspond with her and first thank her for what her story did to save my marriage, but also to learn about the community turning against her. She just wants to live her life. We need to respect that.

I also have another friend that made the news shortly before Susan. Dr. Julie Nemecek, a Michigan professor came out at work and was fired. Julie has been a major activist for the transgender community. She is now an ordained Presbyterian Minister.

And another friend, Dr. Jennifer Burnett, a medical doctor with years of involvement in medical missionary work around the world and who has an incredible website with information for Christians at https://drjenspage.com/Ho[...]ge.html Dr. Burnett took the time to write me a 4 page letter to my old church in an effort to help educate them on transgender.

I bring up each of these to point out if you seek hatred in Christianity, you will find it. But that is not all you will find, there is a lot of good and a lot of good people out there. Don't let your fears blind you.

Hugs,
Marsha

I would like to make a nice response to this thread but I can't seem to find the words - so I will say I agree with Meredith and Marsha. Sweeping generalizations collect everyone in the same dust bin, and that's just not the case.

Jeri

Marsha, "First off you are falsely generalizing about Christians. I fought a fundamental Christian mega church. Yes they believe the Bible is the word of God and seek answers to common day issues from the scripture. And there are literalists that believe every last word within the Bible."

Yes, I understand that many indoctrinated into Christianity have had to alter the literal word of the Bible to fit their higher human instincts. Unfortunately that kind of viewpoint doesn't work for everyone, such as the Christians who demanded Susan Stanton's firing.

I found "Her name Was Steven" to be an exceptional documentary,...one that has religious undertones throughout. Again, it's great that so many people today make up their own versions of Christianity,...but I feel the majority still clings to the canonized text.

Personally, I have never attacked a Christian in my life. My view is that people (Christians) are not their beliefs. However, as any truly compassionate person, I am certainly intolerant of Christianity and any belief system that steps between people and their direct experience.

I am not a atheist, but I read an interesting comment by an atheist (Sam Harris) who said:

“Moderates do not want to kill anyone in the name of God, but they want us to keep using the word God as though we knew what we were talking about. They do not want anything too critical said about people who really believe in the god of their fathers because tolerance, perhaps above all else, is sacred. To speak plainly and truthfully about the state of our world—to say, for instance, that the Bible and the Koran both contain mountains of life-destroying gibberish—is antithetical to tolerance as moderates currently conceive it. However, we can no longer afford the luxury of such political correctness. We must finally recognize the price that we are paying to maintain the iconography of our ignorance.”

Janelle

You are clearly entitled to your beliefs but I strongly feel you have categorized all Christians to be one way. I also believe you are confusing religion and spirituality. An option under Christianity is simply believing in Christ and not the various interpretations of the bible. If Christianity has one meaning, how do you explain the various religions? What you attempt to do with Christians is the same thing bigots do against us. If they find one TG child molester, will that make us all child molesters? You are painting yourself into a corner believing Christians are out to get you.

You live in one of the most liberal states, Hawaii, and I live in the buckle of the Bible belt in Georgia. I go to a Christian church, United Methodist, that has people of all ages, all races, all sexual orientations, and Marsha raises her hand, gender orientation. Some of my closest friends at church are 80+ year old old ladies. They certainly believe they are good Christians and they are good to me. My nearly 300 customers attend a multitude of churches and they continue to treat me with respect. So if we have 450 members at church, plus 300 customers of which most are married so make that 500 people, does that make 950 exceptions to your rule?

You have a lot of fear to get over. Good luck.

Hugs,
Marsha

The God I believe in knows who is right...and who is wrong. The people who "misinterpret" the Gospel for their own "petty little reasons" are only doing themselves harm.
If they think that God doesn't notice their actions....they are greatly mistaken..
Belief is more than "skin deep"
Doanna

Marsha, "I also believe you are confusing religion and spirituality."

No, I don't see any confusion,...the discussion is on "Her Name was Steven" and the underlying Christian/theological theme. Spirituality, that is, real spirituality, is beyond religious beliefs. The doorway so to say of spirituality is the heart of essence,...the heart cannot (that means never) be accessed through beliefs. Beliefs are conditions, and a condition cannot enter the unconditional.

Take Christian love for example,...People usually agree that there are several kinds of love,...a biological, chemical, or instinctual love which a parent has for their child. There's the passionate love of solicitudal desire and enthralled obsession,...a conditional love whose polarity is hate. Emotional love is based on something received through physiological or psychological arousal, and commonly includes, as in Christian agape love, an attached expectation.

Many " think" that agape, for example Corinthians 13: "love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things" is the highest love; that is to say that bearing, believing, hoping and enduring is more compassionate than passionate. However, from Unconditional Love's point of view, agape is merely the devotion, expectation, and suffering to the conditions of their religions brewed beliefs. Agape, is merely another conditional love.

Those already within the liminality between fragmented and unfragmented consciousness quickly recognize the difference between an authentic teaching and a false teaching. A false teacher always place conditions upon one’s experiences, whereas an authentic teacher does not confer about liberation or enlightenment without advancing specific practices that open the way for direct experience—that is, without a need for faith, belief, or mathematical assumptions.

(Mathematical assumptions? Most people fail to recognize that the foundation of a mathematical statement is only true in relation to the assumptions of “set theory,” the assumption that any collection of objects actually exists. All objects, without exception, are indeed mathematical. The reason for that lies in the multiplying/dividing nature of the optically organized universe).

The highest love a human can awaken to, is the amoral intimacy of Conscious Love. This is the Love of the Bodhisattva; the wish for the well being and liberation of all; without predisposition.or condition. This type of love, Unconditional Love, according to Buddhism is only accessed through the sacred feminine.

A person is not their beliefs,...although most who cling to beliefs for their identity will argue otherwise. For me, I neither fear beliefs, nor fear believers. I do however find it unfortunately inhumane living in a beLIEf dominated world, and as a compassionate person wish to shine light on reason whenever possible.

Chögyam Trungpa said, “Compassion is not so much feeling sorry for somebody, feeling that you are in a better place and somebody is in a worse place. Compassion is not having any hesitation to reflect your light on things. That reflection is an automatic and natural process, an organic process. As light has no hesitation, no inhibition about reflecting on things, it does not discriminate whether to reflect on a pile of s_it or on a pile of rock or on a pile of diamonds. It reflects on everything it faces.”

"I could not in good conscience, vote for someone who honestly thinks that the other 95% of us (who believe in god) suffer from some sort of mass delusion." Palmer Joss (actor Matthew McConaughey) in the 1997 film 'Contact'.

Janelle

I‘d never heard of Susan Ashley Stanton before tonight. Well done CNN.

That was the most in-depth, enlightening and sincerely moving documentary exploring Transexuality I’ve ever viewed - although I believe the term Transgender a more appropriate moniker. I applaud Susan for maintaining a Positive Loving Attitude - even toward her adversaries - as much as for her bravery. My eyes welled-up with tears at times

Future societal acceptance of transgenderism will be paved by dauntlessly admirable human beings such as herself. She’s a credit to us all and I believe/hope her intelligence and depth of character will insure herself a bright future. She exudes a wonderful Spirit. I sure wish I knew her as a friend.

Edit:
I forgot to address the point of the OP. Aside from a comment made by one individual, I don’t recall Christianity playing a substantial negative role in Susan's story. To the contrary she appears to have received support from a Christian group during her transition.

Speaking as an individual not affiliated with an organized religion myself – I too have found understanding and acceptance from a Christian family who accidentily discovered my secret – a relationship that began as acquaintances, but born from the depth of this revelation - grew into a lifetime of friendship. Some may consider them 'right-wing'. 25 yrs. later - THEY have yet to proselytize to me,



Jennifer

Janelle, It took you awhile but you eventually got to your religion or Buddhist beliefs being superior than Christianity. I have no issue with Buddhism, however, personally I do not see one religion as being better than another. I believe religion is purely the route we feel best suits us in worshiping God. The perfect analogy is driving from New York to Seattle, there are many roads you can take to get there, but in the end the destination is the same. Interpretations by man vary, resulting in debates as which is the best route. Susan Stanton came up against an individual with influence that was on a different road, that is all. He did not represent all of Christianity, he represented his interpretation of Christianity.
Hugs,
Marsha

The problem as I see it.

Some people tend to use their religion to give their bigoted and ignorant views justification.

I like to think the dieties and prophets of these various religions never indended for their religion to be used in this way. After all, dont all religions preach, treat others as you would like to be treated? Makes me wonder how else these people would like to be treated.

I wouldnt say these individuals represent their religion. I would go as far as to say the pope doesnt represent christianity, he just represents the roman catholic church. I like to take the stance that all religions have their place and are cherished by the people who keep their head down and pray and that these people consider the out spoken types as abnomalties or abominations.

considering "her name was Steven" was the title to the story, I can only imagine what bigotry, intolerance and ignorance she had to endure by some very poor quality human beings indeed.

Love
Penny
x

I'll have to find a repost of the CNN story, I rarely watch TV, though I do peruse the CNN site fairly regularly, as well as a host of others. I'm always intrigued by the dynamics of the religion vs spirituality debate, not just as it applies to TG issues, and especialy as it applies to religion vs politics.
In the USA certainly, it is a hot button issue. Just about any day of the week, as I listen to the debates on talk radio here, one can hear a large and vocal block who believe that the United States was founded on "christian principles" (hence the ongoing back and forth on issues such as gay marriage) when in fact, the prevalent thought I percieve in the US constitution is tolerance for all belief systems and the inalienable rights of the individual.
The christian churches in America, together, constitute a more or less united voting block with stated goals of bringing law in line with scripture, with (in my personal experience) the noteworthy exception of the methodist church, and a loose alliance of unitarian churches. I was raised in a roman catholic family, and I still have vivid memories of sunday sermons geared directly at telling congregations exactly who and what they had to vote for in order to truly be "good catholics", As a child, these priests were the authority figures in which I placed complete trust. When my mother died, they were the people who came into my classrooms(catholic school), into my home, with words of comfort, advice for my father and siblings on how to deal with this loss, as well as the growing sociological complications afforded us by the modern world.
It wasn't until my father was excommunicated from the church for marrying a methodist some years later, that I ended up leaving the church, and all organized religion, disillusioned by the treatment this loving and deeply spiritual man received. And I was just getting old enough to realize the political power that churches held here, and the many varied interpretations of the words in the bible, as well as the history of it's rewriting over the years, beginning with the roman empire, as an instrument of social control.
For me personally, the most succinct words to be found in the bible, as they relate to my own spirituality would have to be "split a piece of wood and you will find me, lift a rock, and there I am" and, "whatsoever you do to the least of my bretheren, you do to me" I would paraphrase this as the quote from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, "be excellent to each other"
I'ma shutup now

here's a link to the CNN page with video and text, as well as links to related aspects of the feature

http://www.cnn.com/2010/L[...]ving%29

Janelle,I sympathise a lot with your anger.Though I didn't see the programme that you mention,the issues are all too familiar,and as a very liberal anglican I often find myself tearing my hair out with rage and shame at the Pharisiaic hypocrisy of my 'fellow' christians.Muslims and Jews have the same problem and one can't helpthinking that there is something fundamentally and politically regressive going on in the world-a kind of 'Spiritual' fascism and this predating the events of 2001.Norman Mailer talked about a certain 'swinishness' descending on the world around the time of the late 70's which I can vouch for as I am old enough to have heard those devils' hoofbeats.
I salute your courage and passion but if you read the contributions of our sisters I think you'll get a more nuanced picture.I also think that now that youve got the bit between your teeth(as if TG issues weren't intellectually demanding) you will be on a quest that will set both mind and heart on fire.Very few genuine Christians are rightwing blowhards,Muslims are some of the kindest and gentlest people that I know and as for Jews,even aetheist ones- I see them as 'God's Spies'.
To quote my 17th. century countryman,Oliver Cromwell;'I beseach you -in the bowels of Christ-that you may be wrong!'
I would add that even if you are,that your doubts show a good and compassionate heart and I hope that I would defend to the death your right to express them. May the Force be with you!xx

Marsha,...your posts show a misunderstanding of mine. I don't adhere to any religion or system of belief,...a religion by definition is literally a system of belief. My profile mentions Buddhism, however my practice is Vajrayana Buddhism, which is not a religion. Vajrayana is not better than any religion, for it is not a religion, nor in competition with religion. Vajrayana is rather a simple teaching,...square pegs don't fit in round holes,...or as I mentioned, no matter how much one is desireous to bring their conditions into the Unconditional it will never occur,...because if a condition could in fact (and it can't) enter the Unconditional, the Unconditional would cease to be Unconditional.

Again, I'm not into beliefs,...I prefer truth. All beliefs are false. If a belief was true, it would not be a belief. Beliefs is what got Susan Stanton fired. A truth is "There is no Present in Time." That is unchangeable. Things that change are not truth.

So, since you wish to focus on Christianity, let's do. Let's begin with an accepted definition of Christianity,...keep in mind, I need definitions to see how words are used:

John C. Green, director of the Ray C. Bliss Institute of Applied Politics at the University of Akron in Ohio, said that despite many variations, Christians generally adhere to four core beliefs: the Bible is without error, salvation comes through faith in Jesus and not good deeds, individuals must accept Jesus as adults, and all Christians must evangelize.

Of course, this is probably not your definition of Christianity because you (like many others today) prefer to pick-and-chose what parts of Christianity you want to believe, and what parts you don't want to believe. And that's OK. I'm not saying that your interpretation of those patriarchial beliefs are wrong.

Why today’s roughly 500 million Christian women concede to the loathsome view of them taken by their Bible and Christian leadership. In the early twentieth century, they seemed to have displayed enough reason to effect an emancipation through women’s suffrage. They questioned political authority, but why not religious authority? Do women honestly feel that they can play “pick-and-chose” with these theo-beliefs by saying yes, I like that verse, it’s true, or no, that verse is no longer relevant? Do they really feel that they can change their god into a more loving god/goddess version, and somehow that will make the reality of their ridiculous and intolerant religion, and their submission to it, more palatable? Why do they give patronage to a reality that demands its adherents to be unquestioningly attached to beliefs through faith, thus the nonacceptance of truth, honesty, or a life that pivots upon unconditional love? If they would simply allow the Bible to speak for itself, they would see the intolerance that the scripture demands, and they would clearly recognize their error. Yet do Christian women ever ponder the teachings advanced by the three Abrahamic holy books? The theologian Clement of Alexandria summed up the Abrahamic teachings perfectly when he said, “Every woman should be filled with shame by the thought that she is a woman.”

What is a Christian? Martin Luther said: “Reason should be destroyed in all Christians.” Hey! That makes sense, for without reason, no one would challenge his hollow, faith-based reality.

If the bible had said that Jonah swallowed the whale, I would believe it. -- William Jennings Bryan

Janelle

Nina, I also believe Janelle has good intentions with all this. It is frustrating to all of us to see others like us abused over a set of beliefs and the fact is we have seen this behavior time and time again. There is no question we should continue to ask why it goes on. However, if we want to be taken seriously I don't think we can afford to fall in the same trap as these bigots do. That trap is stereotyping everyone as being of like mind.

This thread relates to so many others here in regards to what is it going to take to educate people about the good people we really are. I don't believe it is shows like "Her name was Steven." The people we are trying to educate are not going to watch that stuff, we watch it.
Besides, it was aired over the weekend and not even at prime time. I have voiced my belief that we can only educate by interaction. People need to see us with their own eyes.

Hugs,
Marsha

1) Meredith mentioned that "My friend Gina, who is a very devout Christian, accepts me, as does Larry, who is a diehard conservative."
I think Meredith has found out that there are good people within all groups of people.
...bye the way... I happen to be a "diehard conservative" as well LOL

2)Throughout this forum, I have heard many people speak up about the stereotyping of transgendered people etc...only to hear many "stereotypes" being offered here as well. (those that wear nylons should not throw wire brushes.)

3) What I got from what Marsha said seems to be logical.. her "belief that we can only educate by interaction".
As for "trying to educate" these people, I do not think that we should force the issue on these people...but I do believe that we should not hide in the closet either. The more we show ourselves as being a valid part of this world...the better.

Donna: "3) What I got from what Marsha said seems to be logical.. her "belief that we can only educate by interaction". "

Yes, I agree,...100% There must be interaction.

For example, in regards to Christianity, few people today realize that the first Christian US President was the 7th, Andrew Jackson. (The first 6 were Deists).

Few people realize that Abraham Lincoln was NOT a Christian ("Mr. Lincoln was not a Christian." Mary Todd Lincoln )

Few Americans realize that Thomas Paine, the Father of the American Revolution, and person who coined the term The United States of America, was so hated by Christians that even today only 3 statues of this man exist

Statues:
Morristown, NJ Dedicated on July 4, 1950 is only one of three statues to the 'Father of the Revolution' in the entire nation. Not even Washington, D.C. has one.
The other 2 are in Bordentown, NJ Statue Unveiled June 7, 1997, and New Rochelle, New York (broken)

"a statue of gold should be erected of Thomas Paine in every city of the earth." Napoleon Bonaparte, 1800

"Washington's sword would have been yielded in vain had it not been supported by the pen of Paine" James Monroe

What few Americans realize is that the first sentence of the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United State of America contains 2 parts.

"CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXCERCISE THEREOF..."

First is the Freedom FROM religion, while second is the Freedom OF religion.

Janelle

And you obviously have a misunderstanding of me Janelle. No where have I said I am a Bible scholar, at no time have I tossed Bible versus at you. And I clearly stated that I don't believe one religion is better than another. I don't really pick and choose like you suggest, I believe in one simple thing and that is God loves everyone. And believe it or not that is a Christian belief. For your information, I never attended church prior to coming out to my wife. I have no intention of reading the Bible, I don't believe the Bible is necessary to believe God put us here for a reason. I attend church like some may meditate, to take time each week and first talk to God about what is going on in my life, but also to participate in fellowship with others that have a common interest. The message at my church is always positive, none of this fire and brimstone nonsense. And once again, God loves everyone, and that includes people like me and women which you noted in your response. My last church was more like you described, but as I said, my last church. Once again they are all different.
Hugs and well wishes,
Marsha

Toni,

Thanks for providing a link to the story. I saw the clips CNN put on their website and I read several pages of story. I thought CNN treated Susan with the respect every human being should get and I thought showing the gritty side to real life and the difficulties transgendered people face was good. Quite a touching story.

Love
Penny
x

My thoughts about religion... Some people say a lot and some people do a lot. I find when people speak about religion its all about peace, love and respect. I find when it comes to religious actions its about burnings at the stake, beheadings, murder and war; general disrespect to anyone on a whim due to ethos. I just can not align myself with any organisation that has taken part in the murder of another soul however justified. If I were to call myself a christian I would feel like I was condoning murder. Books like the Bible and the Qua'ran were written by man, over millennia, modified by man and preached by man. Their true meaning if there ever was one has been lost, by man. I understand that some people have yet to learn this and "in good faith" continue to follow what they have been taught by others. but, i respect their choices and their freedom to do so. I pray to receive the same respect in return.

I finally got around to watching "Her name was Steven" moments ago. I know Susan somewhat and as I mentioned before, her story saved my marriage. I already knew how the TG community turned there back on her because she said a lot of the same things I have. There was nothing new for me to learn from the televised story, I already knew it all to well. So I cried because that story was me. Not that I am Susan, but because I knew exactly what she has gone through. I would like to thank my friend Julie who put me in touch with Susan years ago. Whether living stealth or out to the world, we will all need each other for the rest of our lives.
Hugs,
Marsha

Penny Moo wrote:
"I just can not align myself with any organisation that has taken part in the murder of another soul however justified. If I were to call myself a christian I would feel like I was condoning murder. Books like the Bible and the Qua'ran were written by man, over millennia, modified by man and preached by man. Their true meaning if there ever was one has been lost, by man. I understand that some people have yet to learn this and "in good faith" continue to follow what they have been taught by others. but, i respect their choices and their freedom to do so. I pray to receive the same respect in return."



In the spirit of interaction....It has been show again and again that "Societies are worse off 'when they have God on their side'" (Journal of Religion and Society).

Few Christians understand that their religion was founded upon the most horrific atrocities in history. A quick look the Theodosian Code and Justinian Laws is enough to make any sane person sick. If such a business in America was founded on a fraction of such crimes against humanity there would be an unestimatable public outrage.

But as Sam Harris said, “Moderates [or Appeasers] do not want to kill anyone in the name of God, but they want us to keep using the word God as though we knew what we were talking about. They do not want anything too critical said about people who really believe in the god of their fathers because tolerance, perhaps above all else, is sacred. To speak plainly and truthfully about the state of our world—to say, for instance, that the Bible and the Koran both contain mountains of life-destroying gibberish—is antithetical to tolerance as moderates currently conceive it. However, we can no longer afford the luxury of such political correctness. We must finally recognize the price that we are paying to maintain the iconography of our ignorance.”

Vajrayana Buddhism however (which is literally a non-religion) says we should find the consciousness we had before we were born,...our Unborn Awareness,...the awareness we had before society indoctrinated us with beliefs.

Religionists and theists would say that such a world without belief and faith (the unquestioning acceptence of something in the absence of reason) would be devoid of morality,...they are right. A celebrated Tantric once said"

“Morality can only be imposed from without when we are asleep. It can only be pseudo, false, a façade, it cannot become your real being…morality is bound to be nothing but a deep suppression. You cannot do anything while asleep; you can only suppress. And through morality, you will become false. You will not be a person, but simply a “persona”—just a pseudo-entity. . . . Only a dishonest person can be moral.”

He continued, “The preachers have convinced the whole world that “you are all sinners.” This is good for them because unless you are convinced, their profession cannot continue. You must be sinners; only then can churches, temples and mosques continue to prosper. Your being in sin is their success. [Churches] are built on your guilt, on your sin, on your inferiority complex. Thus, they have created an inferior humanity. “

“We condemn the real and we enforce the unreal, because the unreal is going to be helpful in an unreal society and the unreal is going to be convenient…A child is born in a society, and a society is already there with its fixed rules, regulations, behaviors and moralities which the child has to learn.

When he will grow he will become false. Then children will be born to him, and he will help make them false, and this goes on and on. What to do?”

Janelle

Janelle,you know I,m beginning to think that your'e right-I just have happy memories of being a choirboy in England a long time ago-the music and old buildings and stuff.Also I live in the most aetheistic country in Europe and wouldn't want to go back to those repressed times.I,m hanging on by my fingernails but much as I personally like you Americans -any more of this right-wing stuff I keep hearing and I'll be joining you-it stinks.Jesus will always fascinate me and my own tradition of Anglican mysticism,particularly the kindly Quakers but your Felwells,etc.-I 'm heading for the door-they would crucify Christ tommorrow AND half the human race.Blessings,Nina-xx

Nina,...I agree. Surely, if the Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas appeared in nearly any American town today, the citizenry would do whatever it took to shut him up, even assassination.

That Jesus said,..."when you can disrobe without being ashamed and take up your garments (beliefs) and place them under your feet like little child and tread on them, then you will no longer be afraid".

In other words, according to Jesus a Christian can never realize Unconditional Love while remaining attached to the conditions of Christianity. I too have fond memories of the religious rituals of my childhood,...but then, the comradship of bullies, criminals, and politians have wonderful memories of their exploits.

I'm not a fan of Eckhart Tolle, however he wrote, "we need to draw our attention to what is false in us, for unless we learn to recognize the false as the false, there can be no lasting transformation, and you will always be drawn back into illusion, for that is how the false perpetuates itself" ('The Power of Now', page 4). If he actually followed his own advice ( recognize the false as the false ), he would not have sold many books in today's theist society.

I was surprised that Osho had the following he did,...of course he was thrown out of the US. Osho correctly said, “Start knowing what you really know, and stop believing what you really don’t know. Somebody asks you. “Is there a God?” and you say, “Yes, God is.” Remember: Do you really know? If you don’t know, please don’t say that you do. Say, “I don’t know.”. . . False knowing is the enemy of true knowledge. All beliefs are false knowledge.”

False knowledge, ie beliefs, limits our understanding. Jim Walker, in The Problems with Beliefs, mentions: Aristotle believed in a prime mover, a god that moves the sun, the moon, and other objects through space. However, with such a belief, one cannot possibly understand the laws of gravitation or inertia. Isaac Newton saw through faulty mental model of reality and developed a workable gravitational theory; however, his belief in absolute time prevented him from formulating a theory of relativity. Einstein saw through that impediment and conceived of relative time. Therefore, he formulated his famous general theory of relativity, yet his own beliefs could not accept pure randomness in subatomic physics and thus barred him from understanding the consequences of quantum mechanics.

Yes, it's amazing world.

Janelle

jalline,lost me a bit in the philosophy there a bit but without recanting my loathing of the Christian Right I beleive that something did happen in 1st.century Palestine and my beleif is based on as much research of texts as I have been able to find(quite a lot actually) and even more than that of my fellow Englishman(woops!) Shakespeare who I think,or trust ,rather came from Stratford and was fond of the sauce and died of a surfeit probably when his death certificate said that he did.
I also know and trust that the landscape that I will be driving through today is saturated not only with the blood of stupid Anglo-Scottish wars but with the ruins of what was a glowing and vibrant Christian culture,the only alternative being the cruel oppression of Norman Barons and tyrant Lords and Kings at the time.I will be visiting the 'Bare ruined choirs 'of Rievaulx and Whitby abbey s where dedicated men,however deluded, worshipped and tried to help the poor and the maimed and in fact made the rich farming landscape that it is today.Excuse my sounding sentimental but there's not much else to be proud of in this strange island.
However your'e 75% right and blessings to you,Nina-xx

Nina: "I beleive that something did happen in 1st.century Palestine and my beleif is based on as much research of texts as I have been able to find(quite a lot actually) "

Not quite enough though. Today's Christianity actually had most of its beginning in the 2nd Century CE.

The most important figure in what Westerners understand as Christianity was the mass murderer, Saul/Paul of Tarsus. According to eminent theologians, such as Robert Eisenman, the Essenes called this self-ordained apostle of the Gentiles “the Spouter of Lies.” No where in the Dead Sea scrolls (buried circa 70 CE at Qumran) is a Jesus mentioned. Was Jesus an actual historical figure? Even Paul did not appear to believe that Jesus was an historical figure; for example, see Hebrews 8:4. That is to say, Paul never identified Jesus apart from an entirely mystical setting. Without Paul and several other Church fathers and aristocrats, Christianity, as known today, would not exist.

The Jesus Christ myth was interwoven from many sources, including the Egypto-Greek Sarapis, whose devotees, according to Hadrian, called themselves Christians and bishops of Christ. Sarapians had temples in most of the major cities of the time, including Alexandria, Rome, and even Bithynia, where Pliny the Younger was governor at the beginning of the second century CE. Under Trajan (who was married to Pompeia Piso), Hadrian was governor of Syria. As every Bible hobbyist should know, as per Matthew 4:24, Jesus’ fame was said to reach throughout all of Syria, yet the evidence shows that no one there knew Jesus’ followers as Christians until well into the second century.

Before 95 CE, when history suggests that Apollonius died and rose from the dead, there is no mention of a personified Christ or the four gospels. There is no known contemporary scriptural record of the life and times of Jesus/Yeshua. For today's Christians, so fond of quoting Bible babble, what wasn’t said in the first century that which is curiously missing, is as interesting as the fabrications and contradictions of what was said then. For example, in the writings of Clement Romanus, the Pauline bishop of Rome circa 95 CE, there is not even a tinge of gospel references. Yet Luke 1:1–2 specifically implies that many eyewitness followers had already been writing. Adding to the intrigue, Clement, whom Tertullian and Jerome suggest was the direct successor of Peter, was also said to be a Flavian, that is, a relative of the men who were then the emperors of the Rome.

Sciolistic Christians vaunt that the historian Josephus, in two remarks that have been taken out of context, verifies that Jesus/Yeshua existed. Today, however, even conservative scholars agree that those quotations from chapters 18 and 20 of the Jewish Antiquities, a history of the Jews, were later Christian interpolations. Such conclusions are consistent with Origen, an ante-Nicene father, who in the third century CE indicated that such a declaration from Josephus of a Jesus Christ did not exist in his copy of the Jewish Antiquities. Furthermore, no one else before the fourth century CE ever mentioned such an important reference from this often-cited source. Another claim by neo-Christians as to Jesus Christ’s historicity comes fromTacitus’ Annals 15.44, the comment of how Emperor Nero persecuted Christians after Rome’s fire of 64 CE was actually about Gnostic Christians, worshipers of Sarapis, not followers of Jesus or Paul. It was these Christians, the original Christians, whom the author of the second-century Gospel of Matthew called false Christians.

Considering a set of all knowledge for that period, not a single Jewish, Roman, or Greek historian, scribe, or writer mentions before 95 CE the Jesus Christ depicted in the gospels. There are no artifacts, no works of carpentry, and no physical evidence that a Jesus Christ ever existed. For such a famous person, professed to have been known far and wide, it is notable that there is not a single word of him from Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Gaius Petronius, the Syrian Mara, Philo Judaeus, Pausanias (who traveled throughout Syria), Theon of Smyrna, Thallus of Samaria, Silius (Consul of Asia Minor), or the Syrian-born Lucianus.

The facts are: The first canonical gospel, the Gospel According to Mark, began to appear in Rome after 95 CE; however, it may have been drafted following the First Jewish Revolt (70 CE). The reason for not appearing before 95 CE appears to have been because of a contention between the Piso family and the Emperor Domitian.

Following Mark came the Gospel According to Matthew, which was probably compiled by Ignatius, a Pauline bishop of Antioch, a town in Syria, about 102 CE. Ignatius appears to have harmonized his gospel using some six hundred of Mark’s 661 verses.

The third of the synoptic gospels is the Lucan discourses, that is, Luke and Acts, were probably authored by a well-educated, effeminate physician from Greece during the second century. These books, having the most extensive vocabulary of any in the New Testament, were obviously written through a healer’s eyes, but also from the point of view of an effeminate or homosexual life. Luke is a girl’s gospel; Luke is the only canonized Biblical author to describe women’s inner life.

John was the last of the canonical gospels. Theophilus of Antioch appears to be the first person to mention its existence as a gospel (during the later half of the second century). However, the Rylands Papyrus, which could be part of a copy of John, has been paleographically dated to 150 CE, fifteen years after the Bar Cochba revolt (whose events are woven throughout John's Gospel, and therefore could not have been written before 135CE).

Nina, I hope this summary will add to your research. Sure don't want to "lose you a bit in the philosophy." I won (1st place) the 2007 SWW International Christian Writing Competition. Be glad to forward the complete essay (about 20 pages).

Janelle

janelle,please do so-you make me feel ignorant-which is only fair.Will message you about reading your essay.I think I did stress that I felt that I was a 'Cultural' Christian,which is more of a catholick and traditionilistic approach,after all I come from a country where such things,like social class were not a matter of rational choice but in 'the nature of things'-like what Soccer team you supported or kids you 'hung out' with.
Was with as group of liberal-minded Christians last night when I talked them through a show of paintings I'm having.Somewhere down the line I slipped in a comment about my TG leanings and they were completely unfazed by this.The point is,and I lay myself open to be demolished here ;as a political animal,I am liberal /left and would find it very difficult to share the same 'spiritual' and emotional space as a neocon or fundamentalist.That is my default position and is where I am right now and it is depressing in the extreem.Youv'e got me 'bang to rights' as we say over here and,sadly facing the sort of 'choice' I have implied here I must abandon my faith.

Nina, "I am liberal /left and would find it very difficult to share the same 'spiritual' and emotional space as a neocon or fundamentalist."

I was like that,...then I realized that conservativism is a mental illness,...now I have a clearer understanding of how to communicate around their paranoia and fear.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Society/Conservatives_Deconstruct.html

As the link above discusses, the illness of conservativism can be identitiied in childhood. Can't wait until neo-cons are listed in the DSM,...maybe when TG is unlisted. LOL

Janelle

Janelle-just a thought her and I'm playing 'Devil's Advocate'-without the camouflage of fundamentalist religion couldn't they become the start of a burgeoning fascism-all the ingredients seem to be there-less so in my country-but that's not because of any greater political maturity here but of our total and increasing irrelevance.
'Childhoods' end 'or sadly,as I fear- the battle is only just beginning to rescue liberal democracy.Sorry to sound pompous!xx

Janelle, it is fascinating to read the trading of thoughts between Nina and you. I admire your knowledge and research on Christianity, something I have no desire to go any deeper than needed. I have already mentioned I have little if any desire to read the Bible. With that said, I don't see you changing many Christian minds. The fundamentalists simply don't listen to arguments questioning their interpretation and will likely come up with some snippet to counter you. Christians like me, are there more for the spirituality versus the bible lesson. I can say if you are right, so, it doesn't change anything. And back to how you started this thread about "Her name was Steven", Christianity was only a part of her firing. Her ability to do her job with all the media circus eventually came into play. Basically you are using this thread to beat up on Christianity because you can argue your point better than others here. We all do that stuff, some call it tooting our own whistles.

With my limited knowledge on the various religions and there differences, even I can see a transition going on where people as a whole are moving away from the strict religions, not limited to Christianity, more in favor of "can't we just all get along." Listening to those running these fundamental mega churches you would never know, but I believe they are growing simply because the extreme from the other churches are leaving their progressive churches so they can be with others of like minds. To them they are expanding, but in reality they are further isolating themselves. For the time being they will continue to exist and spout their message.

Just to make my point about they don't listen, I literally gave a date and time with video available to verify what I said was accurate about them saying they were opening the doors to the homosexual community, and the response I got was nothing. Not a word, just a blank stare as if I did not exist. As I fought that church, Bible verses would be cited and because of my lack of Biblical knowledge I would go do some research and put it back in context and use it against them. They would just move on to a new one. In the end they just said they thought what I was doing would hurt my family. We had moved far away from the original sexual references used against me. It was more of a game for me, I was up for the conflict which many here can attest that I am strong welled and defend my views. Although they said I needed to repent and all that, I believe I won the battle. Once the battle started I knew I would be going at some point, but I wasn't fighting for me, why would I want to stay where I was not wanted, but instead I was fighting for the next Marsha that will come along one day.

It doesn't matter if Jesus existed in flesh. All that matters is the message Jesus conveyed. Christianity is about following the way of Jesus to a better life, which was love everyone. Sadly, man has tacked on a bunch of rules in Jesus' name.

Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha-that was good!Was expecting a fusilade but congratulations on 'fighting the good fight'-brave politics and I salute you for it!I,ve grown to respect your dogged courage and determination to fight your corner even if I violently disagreed with your point of view of the time.The'faith' issue will run and run and,Marsha youre right-you can't reason with blind faith-as good a way of doing 'stupid' as ever.
I seem to have laid my faith down and lost it(now where did I put it?)-maybe it might come in again by the back door!For the moment I have to agree with what I see as Janelle's drift-I see a titanic battle developing with the forces of reaction for which my(former?) faith is ill-prepared if not even a potential collaborator.Something has to go-and if organized religion ,as it seems to be doing ,is mobilizing on the side of the political right I find my position clear-'Here I stand-I can do no other'.I shall side with the human 'spirit' against toxic and anti-human religion,as did our parents,if with different labels did in the dark 1930,s!xx'Let us go forward then together!'xxx'n big hugs.

Nina, I believe fundamentalists are maybe mobilizing, but more so they will not become irrelevant. You said mobilizing for the political right but I feel you are only partially right with that. I am politically right, (lol, in more ways than one) but I am not far right like these Christian extremist. They have been fading over the last half century and eventually the time will come where they will have little influence. It may not happen in our lifetimes, but the reality of that is our lifetimes are only a blip on the radar.

I see this thread as questioning why are we discriminated against still, and sure the biggest reason is because of religious zealots. The fact is that is what we have to work with right now. As I see it, we have gained so much in the last 30 years. We have a long ways to go and the younger crowd is getting impatient. We have moved from baby steps into adolescence. It is inevitable that someday we will have all the freedoms we desire, but until then we need to play by the rules. As I see it now, the rules are blend in or stay out of sight. Some may not like it, such is life. As long as Jerry Springer still wants us on his shows and there are some TGs more than happy to be there, we are not going to gain ground. I don't care if "we should be able to do what we want", that just isn't how it works right now.

Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha,but why 'try to blend in'? Surely with that attitude Rosa Parks would still be on the back of that bus? The Suffragettes didn't try to 'blend in' and indeed one of them threw herself under the Queen's horse over here as well as doing 'unladylike' things like chaining themselves to the railings of the Houses of Parliament.We beheaded our King also and if Cromwell had waited Charles Stuart would have recruited a catholic army (the NeoCons of his day) from the continent and Ireland to supress Parliament at musket point.You might remember some fuss or other over paying taxes(and not unreasonably) to pay for British military successes up in Canada against the dastardly French-something to do with a tea-party?How outrageous,throwing perfectly good Twinings into Boston Harbour-such vile ingrates!(lol)xxxx-hugs'n stuff,Nina

I may not be doing a good job making my point. Rosa Parks was trying to blend in. She was a patron of the bus and deserved to be treated as everyone else. She was not trying to stand out, she was another bus rider. To me you are stating that why blend in when we already are. I beg to differ with you. I believe because of the shear number of people today it takes more than the act of one person standing up for something in order to be noticed and cause change. I believe as a community we need to go out into the world and "make" everyone see the real us without shocking them with the extreme behavior that exists in our community. My definition of blending in doesn't mean going stealth, my definition means let people see what real transgender people truly are. So I guess I am advocating a tea party in a way.

So now what is going to happen is some are going to say, but Marsha you said let them see what real transgender people truly are and who are you to say I can't wear my whore outfit in public. Fact is, I'm not going to stop you, but someone likely will. There is a proper place and time, but to think you can do that without consequences is crazy. Here we are discussing Christians and how some are good and some are not. We can't paint them all one way. The same goes for our community.

And once again back to the topic Christianity and "Her name was Steven", for those who got to watch the show, you saw how the TG community jumped at the chance to turn Susan into the poster spokeswoman for our community. They did that because of the same thing many here think, they believed we all think the same. Like the differences with Christians, Susan shocked them when she said the same thing I have said here. The world is not ready for all of us, YET. The time will come, it just isn't here now.

Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha, "It doesn't matter if Jesus existed in flesh. All that matters is the message Jesus conveyed. Christianity is about following the way of Jesus to a better life, which was love everyone. Sadly, man has tacked on a bunch of rules in Jesus' name."

For someone who never read the Bible, let along studied it (in a non-devotional way) you should be careful about assuming what Jesus' message was. For example:

JESUS' FAMILY VALUES? Luke 14:26, Matt. 10:35-36, Matt. 8:22, John 2:4.
WHAT WERE HIS VIEWS ON EQUALITY AND SOCIAL JUSTICE Luke 12:47, Mark 14:3-7
WHAT MORAL ADVICE DID JESUS GIVE? Matt. 19:12 Good advice for TG's
WAS JESUS PEACEABLE AND COMPASSIONATE? Matt. 10:34, Luke 22:36, Luke 19:27, Mark 3:5, John 2:15, Matt. 8:32, Matt. 15:22-28.

In my view, there actually was an historic Jesus:
The prototype of a personified Christ was developed by Paul’s followers and aristocratic admirers from the Talmud stories of Yeshua Ben Stada, the locally notorious Yeshua [Jesus] the Notzri [Nazarite]. This Jesus, born in 7 BCE during a Jupiter–Saturn conjunction, had a stepfather known as Joseph and a mother named Mary. On the eve of Passover in 28 CE, he was convicted of sedition by Pontius Pilate and subsequently hanged. His hanging was not the planned means of death, but proceeded because those who were to stone him were late. Since the end of the day was near, which would have postponed his burial until after Passover, the soldiers allowed the alternative death by hanging. Following his death, his followers dubbed him the Passover Lamb.

A Nazarite or Notzri, meaning consecrated, was a Jew who took the ascetic vow described in Numbers 6:1–21. Among famous Nazarites was James the Just, whom the Ebionites revered as the legitimate apostolic successor of the Nazarites. Jesus the Nazarite (not of Nazareth or Galilee) is probably the same Jesus whose sayings were collected by Didymos Judas Thomas in the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas. This Gnostic or cardio-centric gospel of “secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke” appears to have been compiled in response to Paul’s new cerebro-centric religion. Both the Gospel of Thomas and the Epistles of Paul predate the canonical gospels by at least a generation. Neither the Gospel of Thomas nor the Q source contained a crucifixion, the concept of Jesus dying for the sins of others; a resurrection; or a personified Christ. Thus they conveyed nothing that would support the divinity of Jesus, which later became one of the core beliefs of the new Christianity.

Did you wish to discuss the cruci-fiction?
Acts 5:30 "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree"
Acts 10:39 "whom they slew and hanged on a tree"
Acts 13:29 "they took him down from the tree"
1 Peter 2:24 "who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree"
Galatians 3:13 "Christ... being made a curse upon us... Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"

Fredric Rice: "No rational person still clings to the belief that the 'Jesus' mythos was hung on the Roman cross. It was a fiction which was added in the year 367. It is amazing that ignorants still cling to the myth. The Roman crucifixion is a fictional add-on which came upon the stage for political reasons. Rabbinic Law called for criminals to be stoned, not undergo a Roman style crucifixion (ie.John 8:3-11.) "

Personally, I think Jesus is lots of fun:
http://www.jesusdressup.com/oz.html
http://www.jesusdressup.com/

Janelle

My understanding is she did the bus on her own but was quickly chosen by the NAACP to be their poster child because she was an upstanding, married and employed black woman. She was basically chosen to lead the Montgomery bus boycott, but that came after the bus arrest. Either way, I didn't mean blend in as to be inconspicuous, but rather as a premise other than the color of her skin, she was no different than anyone else riding the bus. She was strong and determined and that was what was needed to pull this historic event off. That is my take on it. I believe no one should be considered a second class citizen. I do believe we should be judged by our character and I'm sorry to say some use poor judgment that ultimately reflects on their character and in some cases, our communities character.

Hugs,
Marsha

Nina,
I do not understand exactly what you meant by referring to "Jews - even atheist Jews as being "God's Spies""

1) There are three Jewish families in my area that know everything there is to know about me - and they have all been very helpful and supportive to me ....in every way!!
2) God does not need spies!
3) I do not know how the Jewish community considers the TG's in Europe, but I know that in my experience with the Jewish Community (as a TG person) has always proved positive!

There have been many good points raised in this forum - but I also see a lot of "Religion Bashing" in this forum as well as retaliation and resentment.
It seems that many here are "lashing out" at Organized Religion with the same amount of "zeal" as they accuse Organized Religion of committing against them.

I consider the treatment of the TG community by some of the organized religions as merely "Indulgences". We know how Martin Luther Dealt with that ...don't we.
...perhaps it is time to present our own "95 theses" and break out of the old rut and start anew!
btw ....I don't think Martin is roasting in hell at this moment...
Doanna6

Donna-whoa there,you got me wrong there!I MEANT THE VERY OPPOSITE of such a racist implication.Meant it in Shakespeare's sense(King lear) as God's witness of human cruelty.To my shame i am all too aware that Nazis do not have the monopoly over massacring these poor people-christians have been well to the front of the queue of Jewkillers since the 3rd century.
One of first cause of my increasing scepticism was my love of jewish authors as well as my best childhood friends!hugs-xx-Nina

Great Stuff,Wendy-massive hugs-xxxx-Nina

Nina,
Then perhaps I misinterpreted what you said...
"Muslims are some of the kindest and gentlest people that I know and as for Jews,even aetheist ones- I see them as 'God's Spies'. "

If that is so, I certainly apologize

Doanna

Donna,that's OK,I get carried away by my own enthusiasm and anger sometimes but being an anti-Semite is not a habit of mine;my ex-Father-in -Law was one of the first British troops into Belsen.He died last week of Alzheimers and kept on about the smell.Hugs,Nina-xx

Wendy, great story and how appropriate. I was trying to find a picture of the two soldiers that I could post here, but all the news sites had videos. So for anyone interested here is a link to the story with a video: http://politicalticker.bl[...]Z5UItH9
I think the story did an excellent job making my point. These two fine servicemen dressed in their military uniforms looked just like any one else. I believe for that reason they will be taken seriously by those who see the story. My point all along is if they were there looking anything but professional, the impressions onlookers would get would be one of total disgust. This also makes my point about interaction being the best way to educate society. Nobody seeing that event could walk away still believing gay men are flamboyant wimps only interested in sex with every man walking by.

Let me add a comment to the Jewish discussion that went on in this thread. Two communities make up the bulk of my nearly 300 pest control customers. One community is a gated, upperclass community that is overall well educated. I believe it is because of their education, they have shown far more acceptance of my transition. The next large community I service is the Jewish community. I've always had respect for these people, and when I let it be known I was transitioning, they accepted me with open arms. One Jewish customer even asked me how I though the Jewish community was treating me and how he believed Jews were far more understanding and accepting people. His words have been very true to me.

I believe just as the Jews struggled for acceptance and blacks fought for their rights, now although not fully, they have made great strides in being accepted. I see our community not in the middle of battle, but actually beyond the battle. There are still pockets of resistance. To win them over will take time and a different approach. Reason and experience shape our beliefs. We have reasoned with all who will listen. Now we need to let the world learn by experiencing our presence. That is why I subscribe to projecting a good image, not an in your face image.

Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha,I'm pleased at the obvious success of this Demo and glad now that you and I can disagree passionately (about most things!) while simultaneously respecting each other.It might seem a small point-but what's the big deal about looking 'professional' or how wealthy people are.I've been around the block a few more times than you and experience teaches me that 'appearances' are deceptive and how much money a person has as an indicator of their human worth is of crashing irrelevance.
Still,it's a great day for the struggle-Blessings and hugs,Nina-xxx

Again I must disagree Nina, lol. I believe first impression is everything. It allows you to get in the door. You are certainly right that appearances can and often are deceiving. However, most people do first judge others by appearance, therefore you can not ignore that. Maybe in a perfect world we will be able to move beyond judging others for any reason, but for now we must work with how society views others. So my point is appearance allows you to move on to step 2, the judging of character, which is how individuals should be evaluated. I don't think at this time you can honestly reach step 2 without first going through step 1.
Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha,we might seem to be 'splitting hairs' here and your point on one level is plausible but there is something profoundly wrong here that makes me feel uneasy.I am from a very rank-concious and conservative military (RAF and Police)background so I 'know my enemy'-in a way the last of' Victorian 'Values' were embodied in it.I am still suffering and saw my poor mother suffer from the hypocrisy,snobbishness and hidden racism these 'values' represent.I perhaps went to the opposite extreem-I agree-appearances,particularly in respect of personal hygeine are crucial -but the rest is 'Propoganda' and sloganised non-'Thinking'e.g.soldiers are always 'Fine Fellows'-or at least 'ours' are.
Sorry to sound unpatriotic but I saw up Brittania's skirts many years ago and didn't like what I saw.I know I sound cynical but as far as I can see I never saw a 'respectable' person who wasn't a time-serving windbag and almost by definition I dislike and distrust the police-their default position is ALWAYS racist,homophobic,mysogenist and authoritarian.As for our 'brave lads' in the forces-tell that to the Iraqis!!Bitterly and sorrowfully-Nina-xxx

I think we are more in agreement than not. Both of us do look towards the day that we are solely judged on our character. I try to move to step 2, judging character as soon as possible. But I am not about to bypass appearance just yet. Appearances away from the norm can show a lack of concern for others, which is a character trait. A simple example is someone coming to church on a regular basis dressed like a hooker. I can ignore once or twice because this person may not know what is expected, but when it continues, they are obviously trying to make a statement and that is a distraction to why everyone is there in the first place. That goes back to there is a proper place and time for most behaviors.
Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha-that was a good point and I embrace it.Without sounding like somebody on Oprah-I am very much a reluctant rebel(The Hippies got up my nose) and I tend to like the old courtesies when they are not ossified into meaningless ritual but my country is not like that anymore.May I say that all my left/Liberal chums who have been Stateside have nothing but praise for the friendliness AND courtesy of Canadians and Americans of all classes and colours.
Your'e a gem,Marsha-you got me thinking so it hurts.
Here goes-I hero-worshipped my Dad-a WW2 flyer-the feeling was not reciprocated-we never made friends.I carry him with me everywhere-it's no accident that I'm the world's expert on completely useless information on WW2 aircraft.As for my lack of Patriotism-the exact opposite;it grieves me what us Brits have become and the cowardly way in which my government has aquiesced in US foreign policy wether that is a good thing or not.
I think Huckleberry Finn said to Indian Jo somewhere-'the statements were interesting,but TOUGH'.That'sc where you and I have been as intellectual adversaries and I thank you for it .God speed with your transition,Nina-xxx

Nina, your kind words mean a great deal to me. In the past we have had some pretty awful disagreements. I do still at times come across rash and I am honestly working on improving the tone of my remarks. Some might think I am an argumentative type person but in reality I am a very easy going and I believe most people would consider me a kind person face to face. I think maybe that is why some disagreements escalate because along with trying to support my initial position, I argue against being called a mean person. I've enjoyed the going back and forth debate here with you and the others who have contributed to this thread. It is interesting how you say your government has acquiesced in U.S. foreign policy when many here in the U.S. think we have acquiesced towards European policies. I think that just shows the world is evolving and hopefully we will eventually learn to get along. And that gets back to what this thread was originally about. Hopefully someday the worlds religions will also get along.
Hugs,
Marsha

Not to split hairs here, but discrimination against the TG community is not limited to Christians alone. Furthermore, there are churches out there who do in fact support us.

Hi Janelle,

I'm finding your posts more and more interesting. I guess religion has done some good but my last experience with religion was when the true believers beat the crap out of me on the steps of Holy Family church when I was 16 years old. I wasn't dressed or anything, I was just "weird" in their god following eyes. Religion is about total conformity...

Haven't had a chance to use my Latin training in many years, thanks.

Best,
Melody