Yes, I saw that book. At that price, I'm tempted to buy it.

Hi again!

Here's a good place (at least, they've been good to me) for vitamins and herbs: www.vitaminworld.com. They have a very good multi: Multi Vita Min for Women. I take two a day. I quit using GNC because they quit carrying herbs, at least in my neighborhood.

Stevie, dear--Saw Palmetto does not feminize per se, but is intended for men's prostate health. It's the only reason I continue to take it; I have had enough health problems without wanting to add prostate trouble to them...and it seems to run in my family, anyway. For what that's worth.

Based on your advice, I will be adding Red Clover to my next herb order... ;D

Luv 'n hugs,

Jayne Sakura
"Almost-Angel, T-Girl Genius, and Ultra-Flirt"

I've finally started noticing some physical results from the herbs, but (as expected) what I'm seeing is minor compared to the reports from trannies who are using prescription hormones. However, even with herbs, I've noticed some of the emotional changes that Laura mentioned. Early on, I assumed the emotional changes were just the result of my mind playing tricks on me because I wanted the herbs to work, but now that I'm actually seeing a little bit a fat redistribution, I'm more comfortable with giving the herbs credit. I'm on my sixth month now, so things appear to be on schedule, based on what others have said they've experienced.

Personally, I prefer to mix my herbs myself, rather than taking those pre-mixed formulas. However, if it works for others, that's great.

Crowe, your results are moving along a little faster than mine. After six months, I still haven't noticed any change in my hips. The mild breast development took most of the six months, and so did the slight change in the shape of my behind (slight, but a change, nonetheless). As far as completely changing one's body, herbs aren't supposed to do that. It takes prescription hormones (and often some surgery) for that "all girl" look. However, two years sounds about right, as far as getting the most out of herbs. I've heard it takes even longer with some individuals, though.

Hi Sue,

Thanks for the reply, yes I do feel a certain euphoria. Some people at work have been commenting how calm I seem, in fact I'll give the herbals a few more weeks and then go visit my doc to see about prescription hormones.
I wonder if patches or pills are best, I think patches as the cause less strain on the liver.

Love

Irene

:Alot of good advice here but in my
opinion, one of the best natural sources
of estrogen can be found in Red Clover
Blossoms. You can find them in any heath
food store in 2 forms, in the bin dpt.
they're red clover blossom tops (the
flowers), makes a great cup of tea!
In the vitamin dpt., they're in capsules,
many GG's take them for menopause. Actually
a nutritious food, used in horse and cattle
feed, really kicks when taken with a good
vitamin regiment, makes skin and hair softer,
increases bust size and sensuousness and
an overall positive mindset. Really inexpensive. Love you'all!  
 

Hi Cindy,

You go girl!

Sounds like you've found the path, just need to keep on it.
I know it's difficult to transition, hell in some backwaters damn near impossible. If you stick with it you'll find your reward!

Love

Irene

Hi Lisa,

A job to show it off, I've thought about this myself.
How about working bar at a tranny club.
I've been looking for just such a job, nothing yet but i see light at the end of the tunnel:-)

Love

Irene

We as trannys are a niche market, this means we get to pay over the odds for loads of stuff. The tranny chain store was the first to start ripping us off for products that are mostly un-tested, and of dubious quality.
If you have a dark beard check out laser hair removal, if you're fair........it's the superhot needles for you....

Irene

Hi Girls,

Just a little update on the herbal supplements. I'm about 3 months along with the regimen I've been using, mostly black cohosh with B-complex and saw palmetto. The only changes I've noticed is a slight re-distribution of body fat in the hip and chest area. Handy as I can no longer step into some of my clothes. I've got a silver dress that I've had for 2-3 years and have always stepped in and pulleed it up. Well last night I tried it on for the first time in many months and don't you know, it won't go over my butt! Over the head and wriggle it down. The lesson I've learnt from this is to keep accurate body measurements and record them every month.

Love to all,

Irene


Welcome to womanhood darlin'  - Now you can say with feeling - Does my butt look big in this - I have gained a full size on my butt over the pastsix months - dieting is becomming a serious challenge- But I am going to win.

Which store did you use? So far, I've had good experiences with the Vitamin Shoppe.

This Thai company Medicapharma seems to be supequick: I got my order in four days. Or then we are close to Thailand

hugs

Laura

PREMARIN IS EXTRACTED FROM PREGNANT MARES URINE. THEY ARE OFTEN ABUSED DURING THE PROCESS. USE YOUR OWN MIND TO FILL THE GAPS.

IF YOU MORAL: NOT WORTH GOIN THERE

IF YOU NOT, SUPPOSEDLY IS A VERY GOOOD FEMINIZER...
(ANY TECHIE STUFF I CANNOT COMMENT...)

HI GALS,I'VE BEEN ON PREMARIN 6 WEEKS .WHAT A CHANGE!!   :o MY BREASTS ARE PUBESCENT IN SIZE & JUST WONDERFUL TO THE TOUCH,NIPPLES ARE VERY SENSITIVE THOUGH.MY FEATURES ARE STILL FEMINIZING.IT HAS'NT AFFECTED MY HAIR AS OF YET.LOTS OF EMOTION ,I WATCH LIFETIME TELEVISION & CRY.I'VE ONLY BEEN A WOMAN 2 MONTHS & ALREADY I THINK ALL MEN ARE PIGS  :o  MY DAUGHTER HAS A T-SHIRT THAT SEZ "BUY ME FLOWERS & CANDY ,TAKE ME TO BED ,DO ME FOR AN HOUR ,TELL ME YOU LOVE ME ,THEN GET THE HELL OUT!!! :o . PREMARIN MAKES ME HORNY AS HELL ,( FOR A MAN).MY POOR MALENESS HAS RETRACTED LIKE A TURTLE INTO HIS SHELL.IT'S OK ,BUT I WISH HE WOULD SLIDE DOWN MY LEG ,& CRAWL AWAY ON THE FLOOR,GOOD BYE!! ;D I'VE FOUND THAT WHEN I GO TO SLEEP AT NIGHT,WHEN I LIE ON MY SIDE THAT MY BREASTS REST ON EACH OTHER. IT'S A VERY SENSUAL FEELING. I'VE SPOKE TO MY GIRLS ABOUT THAT ,BUT THEY DON'T REMEMBER FROM PUBERTY HOW IT FELT. YOU GALS ON HORMONES,WE'RE IN FOR A TREAT THAT BIO-GALS USUALLY DON'T REMEMBER.WE'RE OLDER WHEN OUR BREASTS DEVELOP,& ABLE TO DERIVE MORE PLEASURE FROM THEM. LET ME KNOW ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCES???  MY DOSE OF PREMARIN IS .625 MG THATS THE RECOMMENDED DOSE FOR MENOPAUSAL WOMEN.YOU CAN FIND GOOD INFORMATION ON HORMONES & OTHER FEMALE RELATED PROBLEMS ON BERMAN & BERMAN ON DISCOVERY HEALTH CHANNEL, THEY ALSO HAVE A WEB SITE BERMAN & BERMAN .COM (I THINK).    LOVE &  :-*----PHYLISS

There's an informative book listed in the Books Board. It's titled Feminizing Hormonal Therapy For The Transgendered. It's written by Sheila Kirk,MD. Even if you choose not to take hormones, it's worth reading.

Thanks. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fashionlab/Images/Smileys/Smile01.gif

There are some things I disagree with on that page, but much of it fits with the research I've done. Of course, I'm not a professional.

Hi

For those who think to start hormones. Be ready that you will change mentally, too. You will cry in sad movies and sometimes laugh so much that you´ll have wet undies... It will be easier for you to talk about your feelings and much easier to cheer up and hug your friends...
You will not change into some stranger to yourself, you will be your female self. Not more, not less.

Laura

O.K., as of October 1, 2003, I've left herbs behind and started using chemical hormones. Here's the new regimen:


Estrogens
Estradiol = 2 mg (1 tablet)

Progesterones
Natural Progesterone USP = 44 mg (about 1/2 teaspoon liposomal cream)

Antiandrogens
Finasteride = 1 mg (1 tablet)
Spironolactone = 100 mg (1 tablet)

Other
Vitamin E = 200 I.U. (as part of a multi-vitamin; two 100 I.U. tablets)
Pregnenolone = 60mg (two 30 mg capsules)
Black Currant = 100 mg (as part of a multi-vitamin; two 50 mg tablets)
Royal Jelly = 100 mg (as part of a multi-vitamin; two 50 mg tablets)

No problem with the questions, but just remember I'm a patient and a consumer, not a doctor.


Regarding Finasteride & Spironolactone:

I got a prescription for finasteride to prevent baldness. It wasn't just a preventative measure, though. I actually started to lose hair and stopped the process before I went bald. As long as I can afford it, I'm staying with finasteride unless something better is approved, such as dutasteride (Avodart
). My doctor says finasteride is unlikely to cause liver damage, and I've never read anything negative about it in that regard, certainly not compared to spiro or estradiol. I don't think taking finasteride adds any significant additional risk. If I stop taking anything to avoid liver problems, I'd give up the spiro and/or estradiol before the finasteride, regardless of what my doctor says (O.K., so I'm a difficult patient - LOL). Even back when I had surgery, another doctor told me to quit taking everything EXCEPT finasteride. It has a relatively harmless reputation, assuming you don't mind the possibility of slight feminization.


Regarding Pregnenolone:

Here's a quick description I found...

Pregnenolone is a steroidal hormone manufactured in the body. It's a precursor to many other hormones and may be able to bring the levels of other hormones up or down, as needed. It's the precursor from which almost all of the other steroid hormones are made; including DHEA, progesterone, testosterone, the estrogens, and cortisol. Despite its powerful metabolites, pregnenolone is acknowledged to be without significant side effects, with minimal or no anabolic, estrogenic, or androgenic activity. Pregnenolone may be one of the most important hormones because it seems to have a balancing effect.

Also, here's a good article that sums up just about everything else I've read about pregnenolone...

http://www.vitaminshoppe.[...]enolone

I've been debating whether to continue to take it after my current supply runs out. Pregnenolone is supposedly beneficial in several ways (aside from helping with feminizing herbs), but the fewer things I can take, the better. I've also considered just taking one multi-vitamin per day, as well. That's a good question about the cholesterol. I'll have to look into that some more.


Regarding Progesterone:

There seems to be a constant debate among doctors (and trannies) as to whether progesterone is necessary at all for feminization. I'm sure you'll find more controversy regarding progesterone than with pregnenolone. You'll also find a lot of debate about progesterone vs. progestins.

I wasn't too crazy about taking several hundred mg of that micronized progesterone (Microgest) per day, just to get the same dose into my system I'm getting with the cream. The majority of it gets destroyed in the liver when you take it orally (more so than some other medications). Unlike progestins, with natural progesterone, you have to take really heavy doses just so a small fraction will make it through (especially for M-to-F transition purposes), and that can be rough on your liver, as you mentioned. I'm already passing estradiol, finasteride, and spironolactone through my liver, so I don't want to push it.

The only reason I'm not using estradiol injections is that I need to be able to stop at any time. Otherwise, I wouldn't be using Estrace/Estrofem, because the oral method is one of the least efficient. Unfortunately, it also happens to be one of the cheapest and most convenient.

Here's the cream I'm using: Source Naturals Natural Progesterone Cream from The Vitamin Shoppe...

4 oz size = http://www.vitaminshoppe.[...]hResult

2 oz size = http://www.vitaminshoppe.[...]hResult

Here's an article about progesterone from that same site:

http://www.vitaminshoppe.[...]sterone


Regarding Estradiol:

Yes, it's usually better to take half twice a day instead of all at once, but I haven't noticed anything negative. In fact, I haven't noticed much of anything (psychological or physiological), other than slightly plumper breasts, but that was already happening with the herbs (assuming it wasn't just diet and exercise), so I doubt the estradiol has kicked in yet. Everything I've experienced so far has been on a very small scale. It's early, though (not even two full months), so I might eventually experience what you've experienced.

Amber - I really couldn't guess. Sorry.

Laura - Thanks for the opinions, facts, and general input. I'll post any additional info I find. Please feel free to e-mail me anytime. I visited a local tranny group for the first time earlier this month. If I decide to go back, I might get to learn from the experiences of other trannies who have been using female hormones long-term.

It was my plan to increase from 2mg to 4mg of estradiol eventually, depending on a doctor's input and how I felt after a few months of 2mg. Not that I recommend it, but I usually listen to doctors' advice, then make my own decisions. LOL I'm a lousy patient, but I do my homework. Like you, I still have to pass as a guy somtimes, and I still want to maintain my sex drive, so I'm not about to start with megadoses. However, the more I feminize, the more I want to do, as long as I stay healthy.

Oh, and I haven't noticed any difference regarding the brittle nails question.

I was wondering if someone can tell me which herbal testosterone blocker you would recommend?? I have been debating on whether or not to use vitex agnus-castus or saw palmento. From what I hear from others is two different sides to saw palmento... one person says that it will increase the testosterone levels (which I definately do not want) and another person says that it wont? I find this perplexing because... how/when would you know when the testosterone levels have gone down or up?

Thx for all the help! This place has more info than most other places that I have visited.

Love, Tarra

Unless you're seeing a doctor who can run tests for you, you probably won't know that you're specific hormone levels have increased or decreased, on paper. If things are working, though, you'll notice slight changes, but probably nothing you can measure. Just don't count on much from herbs. After trying them for a year (you can search back through this long topic and see exactly what I used to take), the minor results I noticed weren't worth the expense and effort. However, I'm still glad I tried herbs, both for the knowledge I gained, and to prepare me psychologically for non-herbal options.

When I used herbs, I didn't see a reason to take Saw Palmetto. If it just happens to be included in a multi-vitamin that you take, that's O.K., but in my opinion, I wouldn't take large doses of it for herbal feminization. I think you're better off with Vitex, which is also a phytoprogesterone. If I were starting herbs today, I'd probably load up on the Black Cohosh as my lone phytoestrogen, and then use a non-prescription strength natural progesterone USP cream (like I am now) for the progesterone. I wouldn't bother with herbal antiandrogens. Finasteride (Propecia or Finpecia) would be better, anyway, and it's easy to get a prescription (to prevent baldness). That's just one tranny's opinion.

Thank you Stevie for the info. I guess i am going to stick with the herbs for awhile and some time next year I think I will look into getting the prescription hormones. But I was also wondering if it would be a good idea to buy Premarin (with an online pharmacy that requires no prescription)? I'd only be willing to do that if I had a doctor who would be willing to watch my hormonal levels for me. What do you think about this? any kind of feedback would be of great use!
Thanks

Sorry for the slow responses...


Robin, I personally wouldn't use Evanesce, but opinions vary. The reason I wouldn't is because I'd rather use idividual herbs than a pre-mixed combination, which is what Evanesce is. You can get it here:

http://www.myevanesce.com/


Tarrareign, as for self-prescribing, I can't say yes or no. That's a personal decision, usually based on money, but also other factors, often depending on where you live. I guess one thing I could say is that it's usually (in the USA, anyway) better to be under a doctor's care, if that's an option.

Isn't it funny? There are about as many theories on the administration of hormones (and herbals) as there are people. I've read this thread, comments and opinions on other tranny websites too.

My physician has her opinion too. It was funny, but at the same time almost insulting, when I asked about supplementing estrogen (Premarin) with spironolactone and propecia, she turned to the assistant (who must have been new) and says something like "...she's read on the internet about hormone therapy, what everyone else is prescribing, how they should be taking this or that, and how much, then they come in and ask for all of these prescriptions that they don't need..." She told me that with a high dose (5mg/day divided into two doses of 2.5mg each) of conjugated estrogen (Premarin) that these other medications are not necessary, the best anti-androgen is estrogen, preferably multiple types of estrogen (again, like Premarin).

She also added that she WILL prescribe spiro and propecia if I want them, but most of her patients find after a few months that they are spending too much money, and they continue with only the Premarin.

I've been taking the Premarin for two weeks now, there have been a number of changes already evident, however none are visible. Primary effects have been initial increase in the number of night-time spontaneous errections (which ended after a week), with no further errections since. Mood swings, from one end of the spectrum to the other.

This is going to be one hell of a ride! I wouldn't want it any other way.

Happy Holidays
Knikol

Yes, when we consider that most of the data collected on the effects of female hormones is from hormone REPLACEMENT therapy for genetic females, it's no wonder that there is so much disagreement, even among professionals, regarding hormone therapy for M-to-F trannies. However, I'm open to the probability that there's more than one right way to go about it, even for the same person. Plus, each person has her own needs and different reactions to various treatments.

After almost six months, I stopped taking hormones today. I'm still taking finasteride to keep my hair, but I'm done with the estradiol, progesterone, and spironolactone. I have two reasons:

1)
The hormones are working too well (physically), and if I go any further, I won't be able to pass as a "regular" guy anymore. At this point in my life, I still need to do that. It's not that I don't want a more feminine body, it's just that I'm not in a social or financial position to become "obviously trans" right now, and I might never be in such a position. I knew this going in, so it's not really a disappointment, but I do hope that my body keeps the minor enhancements I've noticed up to this point. We'll see.

2)
At first, I thought I had avoided any negative emotional effects altogether, because the physical effects were noticeable early on, with no change in my emotional state. However, I've been extremely depressed (in general) for the past few weeks, more so than at any other time in my life. I can't say 100% that it's because of the estradiol, but it's very likely that my estradiol-altered emotional state is magnifying negative occurrences in my life way out of proportion. As most of us do from time-to-time, I'm dealing with several personal issues at once right now, and things that would normally get me down for only a little while (or not even phase me at all) have been hitting me hard and keeping me down, to the point where I cry on a daily basis. I don't enjoy doing much of anything anymore, including hanging out with my friends, on-line or off-line. My sleeping habits are all screwed-up, as well.


So, that's it, for now, hormone-wise. I'll report back and let you know how I feel as time passes (it might get worse before it gets better, though). I might've been able to stay on the hormones and ride out the mood swings, had other current circumstance in my life been different. Reason #1 is the main force behind my decision, but reason #2 moved my schedule forward a few days (I had planned to quit at the end of this month).

Recently, I've had a couple of members ask me how things have been since I quit using hormones. Things did return to normal, emotionally, and most of the physical results (I'm somewhere between an A & B cup) have remained, much to my delight. Eventually, I intend to back back on hormones, but not until I can do so for good. For now, I'm focusing on other things that need to be done, such as laser hair removal (Epilight), which I've been putting off for some time. I hope to get started in the first quarter of 2005.

I can see it now... "The Julie Project"

I wish I had some advice to offer. Maybe someone will have an idea. Deciding whether to make a specific change (or changes) is tough, but actually making the change is often just as difficult, more so, in some cases.

My social situation keeps me from going at a fast pace, but that's probably a good thing. I'm ready to advance, but I've got to be careful.

Thanks Laura.

From MediResource:

"Levonorgestrel - ethinyl estradiol is a progestin (levonorgestrel) and estrogen (ethinyl estradiol) combination birth control pill used for the prevention of pregnancy. This medication may also be taken to regulate the menstrual cycle."

As you see, Laura is taking that birth control pill with other drugs.

Yes Stevie

My dosis is the double to three times higher than the amount used in birth control on born females. Lower dosises would not change my hormone level into the female range. Essential in the whole is also the spironolactone. Without spiro the necessary estrogen input should be still higher and thus more dangerous to the patient.

Laura

Have you noticed any problems with the Spironolactone?

To my knowledge, Spironolactone isn't used to treat androgenetic alopecia in this country. Right now, it's just Finasteride, under the two brand names Propecia (1mg) and Proscar (5mg). Actually, I don't think that Proscar is used to treat hair loss, unless there is also a diagnosis of prostate trouble, where you'd be killing two birds with one stone.

As an amateur, I would think Spironolactone would be of some benefit regarding male pattern baldness, but I'm assuming that it isn't prescribed because it's more of a general antiandrogen, whereas Finasteride supposedly specializes in reducing DHT production only. Most males wouldn't want lower testosterone levels across the board, so maybe that's why Spironolactone isn't a good choice, unless you're a tranny. I'm just taking a semi-educated guess, though. I've heard some European trannies talk about using Cyproterone Acetate (Androcur, Cyprostat) as an effective antiandrogen, but everything I've read about that drug scares me to death (aside from the fact that it's not FDA approved in the USA)! Spironolactone and Finasteride seem to be the safest way to go while still getting good results. I wonder whether any doctors prescribe a combination of the two.

I'll be glad when Finasteride finally goes generic. I have seen a brand called Affasin from Sintofarma/Uniao Quimica on the Pharmacy International (http://www.pharm-international.com) website, but it's not any cheaper than Propecia at Drugstore.com (http://www.drugstore.com/). How much Spiro do you take every day? Most trannies say their doctors start them off at 100mg and then go to 200mg if necessary. I've noticed that the prices for Aldactone are outrageous, and in the USA, the generic version is still fairly expensive. Spirotone, a generic brand from New Zealand, is the cheapest I've seen. A couple of girls on this board say they are using it.

So, how did your doctor react when you explained you had self-prescribed Spironolactone and Premarin? Did you get a lecture? I've heard some things about Premarin that would lead me to believe a combination of Estradiol (Estrofem, Estrace) and Medroxyprogesterone Acetate (Provera) would be a safer choice.

You're right about the variables of my regimen. It would be much less complicated to start using prescription hormones, even if I just wanted to start with small doses. I'm glad I tried the herbs, and I'm still planning to ride them out for a few more months, but it's a lot to keep up with. Depending on where I am socially and financially (I'm considering buying a new house) later this year, I'm seriously considering talking to a doctor later. Psychologically, I'm ready, but I have to plan ahead for the social ramifications, taking things very slowly.

In the meantime, I enjoy educating myself about all of the possibilities. I'll be very interested to hear what a doctor suggests for me.

patty wrote: Does anyone have an idear what the most inexpensive way to enhance my breasts and still have male erections?Can I use a breast pump,breast cream and herbals?

There is a site that has hypnotic MP3's that are free to download. One of them is a script that is supposed to increase your breast size. I figure it is a free download so what have you got to loose. The site is www.Warpmymind.com. If it works it would be the cheapest way to go.

[RESPONSETO]
I have also been taking Black Cohosh, Saw Palmetto, vitamin e and have also noticed that my nails seem to grow faster but are much more brittle and easily break. The other problem is
that I have had some fat resdistribution, some good (seems I have more cleavage now) some bad
if it was working its way down to my buns it seems to have stopped at my waist. I guess I will have to start exercising more.

rikkiradoula wrote:
Hi Girls <br><br>I've been taking a lot of natural hormone products now for about 12 months they have made quite a difference.  I got all my information from a web page that provides a lot of help http://lisbeth.freeservers.com/herbal.html- this is a report based on someone experiences following information she found in a newsgroup and it is very detailed. <br><br>I take Black Cohosh Tincture, Wild Yam Capsules, (and the cream when I remember), Agnus Castus, Saw Palmetto, vitamin e - there were some recommended products not available in the UK and I bought all from Holland and Barrett.  <br><br>The effect - I was losing weight at the same time but gained weight in the breast area and on my hips - as a result I can now fill an A cup comfortably  and my skin feel softer.  I also feel better myself - though that could be a Placebo effect.  The change was sufficiently different that after six months my ex girlfriend saw me with my shirt off and commented and I do not feel comfortable going swimming as a guy anymore  :-[ <br><br>But I would say this - it is Male breast - not female breast - ie natural hormones redistribute fat but do not create breast tissue - and my nipples did not change at all. Great cleavage though and if I wear clothes to show it off I definitely do not get read anything like as much.  in fact I have even had someone turn round when I spoke and say - "Bloody hell love, you sounded just like a bloke."   <br><br>Some side effects – My nails are much more brittle and I have real trouble getting them to grow unless I wear clear polish or hardener all the time – I am also taking a vitamin supplement for Hair and nails, Vitamin B complex and Evening Primrose. <br><br>There was no loss of libido in fact it seemed to have increased.  I also take zinc because men lose a lot of zinc when they ejaculate.  Yeh I rattle as well  <br><br>What this did for me was to confirm that I wanted to go further and I have since bought the real thing on the web from New Zealand – Estradiol Patches and Spironlactone pills (Anti Androgen) – Unfortunately the source has closed down and I am now about to seek medical help and get them legally.   <br><br>After about five months – I am noticing a significant difference, though I am still taking the natural hormones as well. Now breast tissue is developing, my nipples are very sensitive and the is a noticeable decrease in libido, but I’m not worried about that – though I am not going for SRS. <br><br>Hope this helps<br>
[/RESPONSETO]

Here are some good sources for general information about chemical hormone therapy. Specific information should come from your doctor, if you have one.


Gender ID.com - Trassexual Support Site - http://www.gender-id.com/[...]Q_id=18

The Looking Glass Society - http://www.looking-glass.[...]cal.htm

Transsexual Women's Resources - http://www.annelawrence.c[...]ns.html

Crowe, I really think you'll get better results buying individual herbs and taking them together than you will from taking an herbal cocktail such as Estroven. Not that Estroven doesn't have good things in it, but you probably won't get enough from its ingredients to produce the results you want. Then again, if it's working for you, who am I to tell you to switch. Herbs are strange, and if you find a combination that works for you, it might not work for someone else. Unlike chemical hormones, herb use is based on tradition and word of mouth, not clinical studies. However, my personal experience with herbs and some of the information I've gotten from others who've used them is that full doses of various herbs taken together usually get the maximum results offered by herbal therapy.

Red Clover is a good phytoestrogen, so if you're taking Estroven already, that should be a good combination. I've gotten good results (well, good for herbs) with Red Clover and several other herbs together.

Everyone knows that chemical prescription hormones shouldn't be taken without consulting a doctor, but I know many trannies experiment with them anyway. Not that I condone the use of chemical hormones in the absence of a doctor, but if you are going to use them, you really shouldn't mix herbal hormone supplements with chemical hormones of the same kind, based both on my research and what I've been told. For example, don't take Estradiol and Black Cohosh together, because they both affect estrogen levels in the body. Also, don't take Saw Palmetto (a phytoantiandrogen) with a chemical antiandrogen, such as Spironolactone or Cyproterone Acetate.

As for using herbs and chemical hormones of different types, I haven't found anything that suggests that's unsafe, or that there are any negative interactions among any of the specific herbs and prescription drugs I'm using. For example, I've been using chemical antiandrogens to block my testosterone while using phytoestrogens and phytoprogesterones to increase my estrogen level.

I wouldn't recommend using birth control pills alone to feminize. If you're going to move from herbs to chemical hormones, you should use the ones developed for HRT. I'm not an expert, but I've never heard of a doctor prescribing contraceptives for M-to-F feminization, unless they are part of a multi-drug prescription. I know some drugs used to prevent pregnancy are similar to drugs used in HRT for females and HT for M-to-F trannies (I think Provera, for example, is used for both), but to use a drug for HT that was specifically designed for birth control is probably unwise, unless a doctor specifically prescribes that drug for you. Even then, in the case of Provera (Medroxyprogesterone Acetate - a progestin), the doctor would probably prescribe some form of estrogen, and possibly an antiandrogen, to go with it. Maybe some of the other girls can verify this for me. I know just enough to know how dangerous it can be to misuse these drugs.

i cant seem to break the live from day to day stuff... food, clothes, rent, work, sleep, etc.
i wanna go further.....
can anyone "make me their project?"( take me from this man to the woman i wanna be...)

sadly living as a man most of the time, i need a change....
there are endless loops that seem to re-occur, so i cant move forward. need to smash the chains... any ideas??

love you all....


julie.

Hi Stevie and others

I have now had my daily spiro 100mg and ethinyl estradiol (plus levonogestrel) 100 mikrograms for over 4 months. I feel maybe more stable than in the beginning, no more easy cryings. And the main thing...I feel much more confident about my goal and I´m starting to be sure about myself passing as a woman in later phase.
Hormonally I am a woman already. And my male dog can smell it, he has started rebelling, not obeying any more. "Who would listen to a girl". So in him I have a good training for a new female how to handle men later on...



hugs

Laura

Hmmmm.. Stevie

Only maybe that you must remember to drink more water. It makes you thirsty because its main function is diuretic. And flushing your body inside doesn´t harm anything. If it is only water and not BEER.
But if you mean REAL problems, NO.

Laura

Hi Andi

We both seem to have our four months of hormones behind. My dosis is somewhat lower than yours, but it WORKS, too.
I´m also happy about my travel and start to be sure, for some reason, that everything will be just fine.

hugs

Laura

I took Black Cohaosh for 2 months. My blood presure started to get higher and I became nausiated. My Dr thought the bad effects were because I had a conjenital heart problem and diabetes II My libido went down too. But I was much calmer in myself. I stopped taking them at his advice. I have developed small breasts because of the hormones and they are still growing slowly. My libido is still down a bit. I feel fine now though We cant all take them because of other problems Pity 1 Joanna

Well, I agree for the most part. I started using herbs in September 2002. I have noticed some results, but they are by no means significant, compared to the results other trannies have achieved with chemical hormones. However, herbal supplements do work to a small degree, and I'm generally pleased with the results, because I never expected to magically wake up with a female body one morning from taking herbs. I have noticed some slight changes in my chest and butt (puffiness and slight soreness), and, at times, I have felt some sort of buzz from the herbs (whether it's psychological or physical, I don't know).

Why did I choose to go the herbal route?

As I stated earlier, I consider herbs to be training hormones (for me). I do not want to become female in the SRS sense, but I do want a more feminine-looking body. Just how feminine I want it is something I'm still dealing with, mainly because of social and employment reasons. Herbs won't do anything drastic in the way of feminizing my body, but it will give me a chance to test the freak-out factor when noticing slight changes in my body. Just knowing that I am consciously taking steps to feminize my own body is a concept that I have to get used to. Yes, I want to do it, but I also want to see what I'm getting into before going into high gear.

I'm taking heavy doses (the maximum safe doses) of several herbs, and I don't plan to keep it up for any longer than one year. It's true that, while individual herbs alone are very inexpensive, by the time you add up the costs of several herbs together that you take twice every day, the expense is considerable. Sometime between now and September 2003, I'll decide whether to switch from herbs to prescription chemical hormones, or just quit altogether. Small doses of herbs can be taken for long periods, but I can't keep taking large amounts for long, and it takes large amounts to do anything at all in the way of feminization.

I've been seeing specialists for a couple of other related issues, and I might eventually discuss hormone therapy with a doctor.


Here's what I've been taking:

My multi-vitamin is Especially for Women from the Vitamin Shoppe.


Phytoestrogens:

Black Cohosh Root = 2060 mg (four 515 mg capsules)
Red Clover = 860 mg (two 430 mg capsules)
Dong Quai = 50 mg (as part of a multi-vitamin; two 25 mg tablets)


Phytoprogesterones:

Vitex Agnus-Castus = 800 mg (two 400 mg capsules)
Wild Yam Root = 1000 mg (two 500 mg capsules)
Suma = 1000 mg (two 500 mg capsules)


Phytoantiandrogens (testosterone blockers):

N/A


Other:

Vitamin E = 200 I.U. (as part of a multi-vitamin; two 100 I.U. tablets)
Pregnenolone = 60mg (two 30 mg capsules)
Black Currant = 100 mg (as part of a multi-vitamin; two 50 mg tablets)
Royal Jelly = 100 mg (as part of a multi-vitamin; two 50 mg tablets)


Non-herbal Drugs

Antiandrogens:

Finasteride (Propecia) = 1 mg (1 tablet; prescription only)

I think herbs are much more effective, as an alternative, with genetic females who are simply trying to restore a natural hormonal balance, when HRT using prescription drugs causes too many problems. Trying to feminize a male body is just too much to ask of herbal supplements because they are having to work against the natural male physiology, whereas a female's body works with the herbs. However, in large enough doses, you can get some degree of feminization, but it's like rolling a ball uphill.

I haven't noticed any negative results from using herbal supplements, yet. Well, they did cause my bank account to shrink a bit.

Yes, I've intentionally avoided Saw Palmetto (the only effective phytoantiandrogen, to my knowledge) for two reasons. One, I'm taking a chemical antiandrogen, Finasteride (Propecia), and from what I gather, you don't mix herbs and prescription drugs that do the same things. Two, I've read several reports that suggested Saw Palmetto does block DHT production to some degree, but it also has the potential to increase male hormone levels, which, if true, would work against any feminization efforts. For a male non-tranny who isn't already using a prescription drug, Saw Palmetto is supposed to be very healthy, though. So, based on my research, the bottom line seems to be that Saw Palmetto might be an androgen inhibitor (at least for DHT), but it doesn't help to feminize the male body. If so, there's no reason for trannies to use it. Besides, any adult male can easily get a prescription for Finasteride, assuming the expense ($500.00 per year) isn't an obstacle.

I have a prescription for Finasteride so that I can keep my hair. Fortunately, I was able to start using it before I went bald. I've always worn my hair long, and I don't intend to let go of it. I'm considering adding a second anti-androgen, Spironolactone (Aldactone, Spirotone), but I need to hear what a doctor has to say about my continued use of phytoestrogens and phytoprogesterones.

There's another reason some prefer herbs, and that's the fact that sometimes, in some patients, long-term chemical hormone therapy can cause tumors, cancer, heart problems, etc. Considering that transsexuals (and transvestites who intend to feminize their bodies) will usually need to take these chemical hormones for the rest of their lives, that an important factor. That's also why a doctor needs to be involved, to monitor things over time.

Hi andi

I´ve had now nearly six months of daily 100mg spironolactone and 100mcg ethinyl estradiol. In checking my testosterone level had dropper lower than on genetic females. 100mcg ethinyl estradiol seems to work on me, but I decided to rise it to 200mcg after reading that the average dosis is supposed to be as high as 400mcg.
So, my body seems to welcome the transition and not to fight against it. Rather it surrendered right away without fight.
Well, anyway, I´m only at the beginning of my path. I calculated that I might have maybe 20% of my transition behind and 80% still ahead.

hugs

Laura

Hi Andi

I have noticed that silly sad movies make me cry already many months ago. I also noticed that colours seem brighter and I can smell and taste better than before. And I have a good appetite...not very happy about that
My breasts have developed gradually, now they seem to speed up. My left one has the B cup size, the right one a bit less than that.
When I look at myself in the mirror I could easily pass as a woman or as a man. But I guess pretty soon I cannot pass as a man anymore...

Laura

Hmmm...boobs

Maybe yes. I like them and find them beautiful. Most women don´t, I have heard. But I also enjoy the overall feeling of being more and more MYSELF. And that shows to outside. I get nice comments from people. They say I look happier or "more in myself". And that is true, I am getting now my REAL body, where I can feel at home .

hugs

Laura

HI GALS, ONE OF THE GREATEST PLEASURES IN MY LIFE TODAY,IS LYING ON MY SIDE IN BED AT NIGHT AND HAVE MY BREASTS RESTING ON EACH OTHER.WHEN I TELL THIS TO MY GENETIC LADY FRIENDS THEY SAY THEY REALLY CAN'T REMEMBER...I FIND IT HIGHLY EROTIC..ANOTHER THING THE GIRLS GET MAD ABOUT IS THE FACT THAT IF YOU TAKE A GENETIC WOMAN THE SAME AGE AS YOU ARE AND STAND NEXT TO HER YOUR BREASTS ARE STILL PERKY ,BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T HAD 20-30 OR 40 YEARS OF GRAVITY WORKING ON OURS hehehehehe SO WE HAVE A REAL EDGE..OF COURSE MY BEING NON-OP,I'M LACKING CERTAIN ANATOMICAL ADVANTAGES THAT GENETIC WOMEN HAVE,BUT I DO WHAT I CAN WITH WHAT I HAVE MOST GG's DON'T HAVE A CLUE HOW TO GET A DELIVERY AT THE BACK DOOR.THEY ALWAYS ASK ME ABOUT HOW TO DO THAT!!!!HUGZ AND A SORE COO-COO PHYLISS-MARIE

You didn't say which hormones you are taking, could you please let me know what they are and the dosages.

suekie wrote: Two years ago,I realised the only option for me was to go 'all the way'.I fought my way through the 'system',and have now been on hormones for over eighteen months.If it is the right thing for you,you will know it.The effects are as much mental as physical.There is a serenity that comes from within,a wonderful sense of wellbeing.It is hard to describe,and I know others who have tried to explain it to me.<br> If,on the other hand,you are not a true TS,apparently you soon find out,as your body will not like it.I have met two people who have been there,and stopped taking them after about two months.<br> As for life 'without'? That is my goal.I transitioned at work,and am just waiting...<br> Good luck to you,and anyone else thinking of taking the same path.<br> Love, Sue.XX

Dear All,
could any body inform me if Progestrone is important for femenal desire, with estroforum.

thanks for help

Faten xxx