In my opinion there is nothing wrong and everything right with the new philosophy the university has adopted. I currently present as male when my daughter stays round. When we go out we always go to places that have unisex loos simply because its not practical for me to take her into the ladies and its unfair on her to go into the men’s.

I take her swimming every other Sunday and we choose to go to the local swimming baths that have unisex changing rooms so we can both use cubicles next to each other. Yes, one can look under the partition or look over but it never happens. Our local swimming pool has had unisex changing rooms for decades and it wouldn’t continue to be popular if it weren’t practical. To me it just seems ideal for many reasons and works extremely well in a civilised environment. Are the complainers saying the university isn’t a civilised environment?

I just frown at the bit in the article where the girls are complaining. Obviously university and higher education doesn’t make people more intelligent, just more opinionated and conceited.

Girls, i found a rather interesting piece in the paper today.........

"Ladies & Gents loos have been labelled " Toilets" and "Toilets with urinals" to make life more "comfortable " for trans-sexual and transgender students. . A politically correct lobby demanded the changes to signs at the Manchester University facility, But Susannah Birk-wood 24, editor of the uni's newspaper said "Female students have called it disgusting and bizzare",

University women's officer Jennie Killip said " We have cut the overtly gendered aspect. The expresssion " political correctness gone mad " is disablist.

Now there's one thing that really does bug me about this.." Female students have called it disgusting and bizzare"

WHY is this bizzare and disgusting???? ?.....ok changing the labels may be a bit ott, but if you are tg/ts & you need to use the loo you have to go somewhere!!.

In some ways i can see what the Uni's trying to do in making TS/TG students comfortable in their surroundings but have they gone too far this time

I Guess what i'm saying is..." is this really PC gone mad"??



Lol xxxxxxxxxx
Anna-Marie

Well, maybe it solves the problem that we’ve discussed here before about which loos to use when dressed. Unless you are adept at peeing standing up whilst wearing a skirt, you’d choose the toilets without urinals and not get arrested for it (not that you would anyway). Since it’s not marked as “Ladies” you can’t get thrown out for being a “man”, nor can any natal females complain about you being in there.
I can see why young, naïve, cisgender female students may think it’s a bit bizarre, but it’s certainly not disgusting.
xx

....until some cis-gendered, male, pervert goes in the "non-urinal" toilet to peer under the divider with a mirror or camera....then the backlash may cause it to do more harm than good. Still, I don't have a better suggestion than Unisex bathrooms with more private individual stalls and community sinks and mirrors. The other issue there, however, is the social needs of women to chat away from men. Ignoring this may create resistance from even those who do not object to sharing plumbing with TG/TS women alone.

It's hard for me to believe that the UK law protecting us did not take this common problem into consideration when it was written.

I applaude the university for thinking outside the box and catering for all genders. Yes, males could go in the ladies but a lot of guys won't want to since they would be concerned about being labelled by using the toilets without urinals. Plus, too many females in one place is pretty scary to many guys, they just can't handle it and many wouldn't want to put themselves in that position i the first place. Time will tell how this works out. It would be interesting to see what the next twelve months bring.

Nikki

I agree with Wendy that women do have a social need to use toilets without men around, and not just so they can chat freely, but I also agree with Nikki that not many men would choose to use the non-urinal toilets (you can’t call them Ladies’ toilets) as that would threaten their masculinity. I’m sure in a student environment it could work out well.
As for the UK law situation Wendy, really we are protected from this sort of thing; we’ve been given rights to not be discriminated against in our “chosen” gender, it’s just that the law did not specifically state that natal males should be allowed to use female toilets. Perhaps it is for good reason that such laws can’t be quite so specific. The laws mean that the CPS would never go ahead with a prosecution for a non-misbehaving man dressed as a woman using the Ladies. Also they give us cause to sue anyone who tries to prevent us from doing so without good reason.
The situation is quite simple, if you are presenting as female you have a right to use the female toilets. Go into the men’s whilst presenting as female and you are likely to get abuse.
If you are presenting as “androgynous” then ask yourself honestly – which gender do I appear to others? Quite often I think the term “androgynous” is misused to mean “not dressing in an overtly masculine way”. True androgyny is where people really can’t tell one way or another. If people hassle you for using the Ladies you’re obviously a man and not androgynous!

Manchester University have in effect created unisex toilets yet employed subtle “persuasion” for men to choose one over the other. Indeed anyone is free to choose here, but it’s TG’s who really benefit from having that choice.
xx

Perhaps if the sinks and mirrors (lounge) areas were divided by gender and a solid cinder block or other wall and closing doors for sound privacy, the problem would be solved since it allows socialization and I doubt women would object to a TG/TS person in the lounge. Make one door pink with flowers and one door blue and you probably solve the problem of which men would use anyway.

I have an interesting twist to this one. A local cinema has separate M & F toilets but....the wash basins are sort of communal.I say 'sort of' because,whilst there is no visual contact thanks to the mirrors,
the wash basin extends under the mirror/separating wall thus allowing,if necessary,an exchange of items eg toilet paper rolls.This also means that conversations on one side can be heard quite clearly on the other......leading to slightly bizarre situations. There I was,sitting peacefully in the ladies,'listening' to a conversation apparently taking place 'through' the mirror between a woman and a man.When I came to use the wash basin I discovered a woman ..............and another T-girl!
Back in 2000,I attended a congress at Liverpool Uni
(en drab....).On my way to the (gents)toilet I happened to notice that there was a large notice on the door to the Ladies to the effect that 'This toilet is for real women only,trannies please use the mens toilet.' At that time,having been out of the UK for about 20 years,I didn't realise how much the Tranny world had changed but I do remember thinking 'Huhh?What's going on here?' I also seem to recall seeing a similar notice in the toilets on Victoria station in Manchester a few days later,the same day as I discovered the Tranny Guide......That book has a lot to answer for,but that's a different story........

Ciao
Lynn H.

Hi Girls,

I just want to pick up on one of Wendy's points, when she suggested that, to allow a little bit of "social area" for the girls, in a uni-sex toilet, there could be some sort of "divider" between the "lounge areas".

Somewhere, in the dark and distant past of these forums, I posted about a unisex toilet here in Dublin.

I can't remember which thread it was, but that doesn't really matter ................

A resturant that I like to use, when I'm in the City Centre, was fairly recently, re-furbished, and, as part of that work, the toilets were remodeled, and made uni-sex.
The layout of them is the point I want to try and explain here.

The general shape is quite long, with all the cubicals (approx 20) along the long wall facing as you enter through the door, which brings you into the centre of the toilet.
From a "clear area" in the centre of the toilet, two "central islands" of washhand basins stretch down the middle of the room, to the ends. There are facing basins on each island, with mirrors between.
On the other long wall (behind you when you enter, are various sofas and chairs.
Although there is no physical barrier set up, the girls tend to use the left hand side of the toilet, and the men the right hand side.
The way this is achieved is the interesting point !!
The island of basins to the left, is supplied with a range of female toiletries and creams, whilst the right hand island is stocked with male toiletries !

So, without actually separating the two lounge areas, they "separate themselves" by the location of the toiletries supplied.

Quite a neat way to do it I've always thought !!

Hugs,
Angela. xxx.

I think this is political correctness gone mad in a way.

A transsexual before transition will likely use the restroom of the gender which they resemble most just as a transsexual after transition will meaning the problem of which restroom to use is mostly a transition problem.
I've seen estimates that about 1 in 10000 people are transsexual which is a small but not insignificant group. But if the problem with the restrooms is a problem for 1 in 10000 people during a limited time of their lives, it's not really that big of a problem when viewed from the outside.
Women don't want men in their restrooms because men make a mess, don't wash their hands and by letting men in you destroy the sanctuary that the restroom provides. Most men don't want women using their restrooms either because it takes women so long in there. In effect, most people LIKE having separate restrooms. Personally I don't like unisex restrooms no matter how they are constructed and I'd just be put off if they were forced on me in the name of political correctness.
To allow men into the ladies restroom or to the changing room at the gym or to the showers at the spa (where does it stop?) to accommodate such a small group of people is uncalled for and will more likely cause resentment rather than acceptance. You can't force acceptance onto others, a lot of people respond very negative to that.

I suggest being humble during transition and to be respectful to others rather than demand they change to accommodate your own needs. If you want to make a statement and act outside the norm, then don't be surprised if others have a problem with it. Which restroom do you think will cause the least problems to use? Use that one.

Just read the threads and I have to say it did make me wonder just who in the Uni could possibly complain. Hmm ok let me explain, being a frequent visitor to Manchester and the pubs and bars there is one place that 99% of the students go to, the place is called Barr Barr, the reason for this is Vodka £1 a shot.
Now thats explained let me tell you all about the toilets they use there, they are not male or female the are gender neutral, the sign on the door just says Toilets. when you go through the door you are presented with 6 cubicals no urinals and a trough to wash your hands in.
No complaints are made everyone just goes to the loo and thats that, now i certainly don't hear people complaining,
Oh now I just thought of France, Holland in fact most of europe that have cheap holidays that students use, again there is never an issue is there, why?
The complainers would not complain if they started at the uni and the toilets had already been changed would they.

Just my ten penneth worth

Christene , once again dear, you beat me to the punch with you're incite. The only thing I can add to whats already been said is the fact that some of these people should adapt a REAL life or maybe take up a hobby such as Bird watching or Rock collecting , something anyway! Ellen S.