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must not, in providing the service, discriminate against a person
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must not, in providing the service, victimise a person—
Thankyou,
I'll try to make it easy, you have to give a reason why you were discriminated against. You can't just plead discrimination. This applies to hospital treatment employment, if someone refuses you a service because your black thats racial discrimnination if someone refuses you a service because your a transsexual thats discrimination based on gender. God knows what it would come under if you were refused emergency treatment in the A&E because you were wearing red shoes and your handbag did'nt match, but sure there must be something that would cover it.
Same way you can't just prosecute somone for stealing something different types of theft, you have to give factual evidence of what they stole and how they stole it.
burglary, robbery, fraud, taking pecuniary advantage, embezzlement. Armed robbery. larcency, blackmail is a form of stealing so is extortion. All different crimes with varying penalties. You can't just prosecute someone for killing someone, There is murder, an other degrees of murder right down to causing death by driving without due care and attention. When our laws were first written, They were secular and a disadvantage to the masses. gradually as society changed, laws were added and amendments made to make them fairer and all encompassing. Thats why we in the UK probably have the best laws anywhere in the world relating to Transsgender issues. To say it gets complicated and leaves too many loopholes is wrong, Many changes to statutes and common law, is to close the loopholes, as in the case of the artificial vagina a classic example of closing a get out.clause.
Some of the aspects of USA law, I quite admire, wish we could adopt them here, especially when it comes to handing down sentences. Very often here
if a person commits 5 robberies, the get say 3 years for each of the five robberies, they then get sentenced to do their sentences concurrent which means they serve their imprisionment with all sentences running together, ergo they only do 3 years less time off for good behaviour. Whereas in the USA, they tend to do 3 years for the first crime and then when thats finished they start doing the time for the next crime and so on. consecutive. The only real gripe I have with the human rights act in the UK is very often it favours the perp more than the victim.
Someone once said the law is an ass, only if its being read and interpretated by donkeys.
I might be wrong, I realy have no great knowledge of USA law. except from television, if your arrested on criminal charges you have the right to an attorney, if you cannot afford one, one will be appointed to represent you. When it comers to things like discrimination, being refused goods or a service one has to hire a lawyer. so under those circumstances, the poor people are disadvantaged. I have heard a couple of American girls and girls from Canada, declare in the chat room that when they came out they lost their jobs and some could not afford to pursue their claims under state law, because they could not afford to pay for the lawyers. Here the Ideology of common law is that, within the terms of the law everyone is equal regardless of their position in society or their ability to pay for legal representation, thats one reason that we have so many laws.. Somone refuses to to serve a TS in a shop because they are a TS or on the basis of race, etc etc , its a crime, punishable by law. One has recourse to the law, its not a case of if you can afford it you get it, you can't afford it tough luck. Not being in the position to know a great deal about US or Canadian law, I certainly don't want to get into a you versus us scenario, try not to form opinions lessening the value we place on our legal system. There is of course the requirement for a forum dealing with USA laws, so far nobody has volountered to head up such a forum.
I have hidden two posts, I have not consulted Katie or any of the other mods. I am the last one to censor anyones opinion. But this forum is not going to be dragged into a us and them situation. I realy am interested in how laws work in other countries, sure we all have positive things to add, its basically a UK law forum, but I am grateful to get comments and explanations how the laws differ from country to country. But I will not let this forum descend into chaos by anyone, when people start being so base as to call somone else a boy then it makes me wonder why I am devoting my time to trying to help people.. I thought perhaps by highlighting some of our laws regarding transgendered issues it would keep people in the UK informed of their rights and perhaps give people from other countries a basis for repealing some of their own laws that did'nt quite come up to scratch.
Doanna said:- ''Cristine,
The very point I was making is that if you have it in the charter..then there is no need to further complicate things by adding these rights to other laws ...because they already apply. When you add detail, you also add complications and contradictions.
Doanna said:- ''Cristine,
I am not certain about the USA, but we have a thing called the "Human Rights Commission" that will persue the matter on their own...and cost nothing...and another thing called "Legal Aid". ...there is usually no cost to the applicant. Usually it never has to go that far because the Companies do not wish the "public backlash" and the bad publicity. Mostly, the matter is dealt with in an "out of court settlement"
Employees that put their companies in that situation usually get fired and rarely file for wrongful dismissal because they would NOT win in court.
Our Legal System in Canada differs a bit from the USA
The Senate should have passed this, and it’s disappointing that the transgender community is going to have to wait months again now unnecessarily for them to do this, but I still expect them to pass the bill,” said the bill’s sponsor, New Democrat MP Randall Garrison.
Bill C-279 would protect transgender Canadians against discrimination in the Canadian Human Rights Act and prohibit the promotion of hatred or the incitement of genocide on the basis of gender identity in the Criminal Code.
This has been the fourth time the measure has come up as private member’s business. In 2011, similar legislation got as far as third reading in the House of Commons but died on the order paper when the election was called.
So when this thread was running in real time, Doanna was not exactly correct, about automatic transgender human rights in Canada.
http://blogs.montrealgazette.com/2014/03/01/transgender-rights-a-refresher-on-canadas-bill-c-279/
It has been a very long time since I made a post in this , I am the former member (Julia) .
The laws here in the UK are very clear , the problem stems from the shop assistants not knowing the laws , but they should know what respect is.
Since this thread I have been talking to many major retailers and also their public relations departments. I have personally handed information explaining the laws in simple terms to the store management to be explained to their staff. By doing that I have also been invited to staff training sessions and , explained to their faces the effects bad attitudes can have on a trans person .
The laws sound complicated but in reallity they are very simple when put in simple terms , and more so to their faces who are basically ignorant to the harm they can cause. I have not done those things for myself , I get by ok .
Only last week I was asked out of the blue by a store manager , Julia do you think it would help if i opened the store for a few hours just for Transgenders? . I had to respond , it is a nice gesture but it will not work and it is defeating the object , just treat everyone the same , you know me , you have taken the time to get to know me , you treat me with respect because I made you listen to me. If I miss not walking into that shop for just one week I get , have we done something wrong? I had to make it clear , I do have a life and if you had offended me believe me you would know about it , I would not avoid you I would tell you.
Julia x
I would like to add something to this. The laws are there to protect us , they are under used. It is no good walking away and not saying anything if you are badly treated , it is as good saying just do it to the next one. We all have the power to put and end to mis-treatment of transgender people in retail or any public service industry.
I know most of you will not agree but , I was told yesterday every town or city needs a Julia , they did not mean a female named Julia , they meant someone like me . Yes I will stand up for myself and others but , for myself I do it in a productive way.
Here is a very good tip you may wish to use . If you are treated unfairly by anyone who is there to "Serve you" with a good service and with respect and you are not getting that service and respect then try this.
A very small and cheap device or even your mobile phone can protect you.
I carry a digital voice recorder with me everywhere I go. It is not in constant use but , last year a very ignorant Pharmacist had a problem with my gender identity , he was clearly transphobic as his actions were deliberate . He could see I was very clearly presenting myself as a female , this man had been to university so he was not thick in the head. He made a very big mistake in his actions , more so doing it to me.
My prescriptions have my details on them just as anyone elses , they state my name and title , my title is "Miss" he called me sir on more than one occassion , he was dispensing female hormones to me and my blockers! There were 2 ways I could have handled that situation. I could have called him Miss (that does hurt a man , it dents his pride , more so if other people are around) . The second way is to complain to his management , now he would have just denied saying it. My voice recorder is one touch record , it gathers evidence. So I took my prescription in and pressed record , he called me sir 6 times , they were the last times.
I asked to see the manager , a lady came to see me and I just outright asked her , would you stand there in front of me and call me sir to my face? No way would i ever do that was her response . We had a conversation about ignorance and she said that she would had not known I was born a male until I told her. I told her that your pharmacist does know though because he can see my medication , I played here the recording. She asked if I could burn it on to a CD? Yes that was no problem so I did and returned later that day and handed it to her. She took my telephone number and name and address.
The next day I had a call from her . She told me he had been dismissed from his job and thanked me for bringing it to her attention. I did tell her there was no need to sack him but she said I am not having him treating you in that way because that means he will do it to others or has done.
About a week later I received a letter with an apology , it also contained a £100 gift card , the voice recorder was £29.00.
That same recorder had a man arrested and held in a police cell for 11 hours when he discovered I was Transexual and thought it may be fun to insult my gender , one police officer listened to the recording then 4 turned up to put him in the back of a police van shouting i never said anything what have i done?.
The pressing of one little button can do wonders , mobile phones can record too. The device I purchased is small and can be virtually hidden in the palm of my hand , it picks up every word , they cannot escape what they said.
I very rarely use it but knowing it is there can also help if I ever hear another person being disrespected.
There are many things we can do to change things , to me it makes life better for others and the next generation. Always please give credit where it is due , if you are treated very well then let them know you were . People who work in the public service do like to be recognised for good things not just bad , they are in low paid work and you could just make their day by giving some praise , yes it is their job but , mostly it is not a very nice job , go on just make their day and give them a reason to treat you well and make you feel special , it really can change many others lives .
Take care .
