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    • November 28, 2010 12:09 PM GMT
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      Further

      Most people have a clearly defined sex:For most, but not all people, their sex may be defined in terms of any one of the following three factors:

      Their genetic or biological sex: Every cell in a person's body contains sex chromosomes that determine a person's genetic sex. In almost all cases, these are XX chromosomes for females, and XY for males.

      Their gender identity: This involves their "internal sense of being either male or female."

      Their physiological gender: The genitalia of the vast majority of newborns are clearly either male or female, and remain so throughout life. Their appearance determines the sex that they are assigned at birth.
      The vast majority of people are cisgendered: they will mature with their biological sex, gender identity and physiological gender in harmony. For example, for a typical woman:

      Each cell in a her body will contain 46 chromosomes including a pair of XX sex chromosomes -- commonly written 46,XX.
      She will identify as a female. By the age of one, she might show a preference for more feminine-typical toys. By age three she will probably have a definite sense of being a boy or girl. By age five, she will "... come to believe that sex is unchanging with time. This is the point at which many people think that a child's gender identity becomes fully established and fixed. Then all the child's energy seems to focus on adopting behaviors consistent with that sex."
      Her genitals and internal reproductive organs will be female.

      Some people do not have a clearly defined sex:
      Not every person fits neatly into the binary female/male system. There are many exceptions.

      Consider what genetic or biological sex can involve:
      Rarely, a newborn will have 45 chromosomes including only one X sex chromosome referred to as 45,X. Other forms of DNA are 47/XXX, 48/XXXX, 49/XXXXX, 47/XYY, 47/XXY, 48/XXXY, 49.XXXXY, or 49/XXXYY.

      Some newborns have different numbers of chromosomes in different cells within their bodies. This can be caused by complications in early cell division at the pre-embryo stage. When multiple sex chromosomes appear in the same body, they are called sex-chromosome mosaics. They may have combinations of normal male and female chromosomes, typically 46,XY; 45,X; or 46,XX, within their body.

      Sometimes, an ova with two nuclei will be formed in an ovary, be fertilized by two sperm, and grow into a chimera -- a person with two DNAs. One possibility is that they might have some 46,XX and some 46,XY (a normal female and normal male) chromosome configuration.

      Sometimes two separate zygotes (fertilized ova) can fuse shortly after conception and develop into a single embryo with two different DNAs.

      Consider gender identity:

      A minority of individuals develop a sense of being of the opposite sex from their biological and physiological gender." 1 They may describe themselves as a man trapped in a woman's body, or having a man's body with a woman's brain. They experience Gender Identity Disorder, a.k.a. Gender Dysphoria.

      1  Some people identify as both male and female.
      2  Others identify as being of a third gender, as being "two spirited" or of having no gender at all.
      3  Some will be intersexual. They will have an "anatomy or physiology which differ from cultural ideals of male and female." Some will have genitalia which are ambiguous, others with both male and female components, and still others will be missing external genitalia entirely.

      Our cultures' tendency to divide people neatly into male and female suddenly looks inadequate and over simplistic.

      Beliefs about sex, gender identity and gender dysphoria by transgendered persons, transsexuals, social and religious liberals, secularists, etc:
      They are much more likely to accept the findings of genetics and human sexuality research and acknowledge that the binary male/female system is inadequate. They view transgendered persons who are identified as male when they are born but make the transition to female later in life -- often referred to as MTF transsexuals -- as female. Similarly they consider female to male transsexuals (FTM) who have made the transition to be male.

      "The transsexual appears to be a perfectly normal male or female with normal primary and secondary sexual characteristics. ... transsexualism cannot be detected visually or by any other means. Since other people can't see anything amiss, they conclude that transsexualism is not a physical defect, but more an emotional/psychological problem. It is a common but erroneous belief that with a little self-discipline, or with counseling, a transsexual person can act normally and accept their lot in life. ..."

      After decades of trying, psychiatrists have had to admit defeat in conquering this dilemma. In all the years that psychiatry has tried to 'cure' transsexualism, not one case has responded positively and permanently."

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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • November 23, 2010 7:34 PM GMT
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      Heteronormativity is a term used in the discussion of gender and society, mostly, but not exclusively within the field of critical theory. It is used to describe, and, frequently, to criticize how many social institutions and social policies are seen to reinforce certain beliefs. These include the belief that human beings fall into two distinct and complementary categories, male and female; that sexual and marital relations are normal only when between two people of different genders; and that each gender has certain natural roles in life. Thus, physical sex, gender identity, and gender roles, should in any given person all align to either male or female norms, and heterosexuality is considered to be the only normal sexual orientation. The norms this term describes or criticizes might be overt, covert, or implied. Those who identify and criticize heteronormativity say that it distorts discourse by stigmatizing alternative concepts of both sexuality and gender, and makes certain types of self-expression more difficult.

      This concept was formulated for use in the exploration and critique of the traditional norms of sex, gender identity, gender roles and sexuality, and of the social implications of those institutions. It is descriptive of a dichotomous system of categorization that directly links social behavior and self identity with one's genitalia. That is (among other) to say that, because there are strictly defined concepts of maleness and femaleness, there are similarly expected behaviors for both males and females.

      Originally conceived to describe the norms against which non-heterosexuals struggle, it quickly became incorporated into both the gender and the transgender debate. It is also often used in postmodernist and feminist debates. Those who use this concept frequently point to the difficulty posed to those who hold a dichotomous view of sexuality by the presence of clear exceptions -- from freemartins in the bovine world to intersexual human beings with the sexual characteristics of both sexes. These exceptions are taken as direct evidence that neither sex nor gender are concepts that can be reduced to an either/or proposition.

      In a heteronormative society, the binary choice of male and female for one's gender identity is viewed as leading to a lack of possible choice about one's gender role and sexual identity. Also, as part of the norms established by society for both genders, is the requirement that the individuals should feel and/or express desire only for partners of the opposite sex. In other critiques, such as the work of Eve Sedgwick (an American theorist in the fields of gender studies, and queer theory), this heteronormative pairing is viewed as defining sexual orientation exclusively in terms of the sex/gender of the person one chooses to have sex with, ignoring other preferences one might have about sex.

      In a heteronormative society, men and women are interpreted to be natural complements, socially as well as biologically, and especially when it comes to reproduction. Woman and men are necessary for procreation, therefore male/female coupling is assumed to be the norm.

      The concept of heteronormativity seeks to make visible the underlying norms or "normal" society. It questions the common and often tightly held notion that only what is statistically typical is normal and good. It embraces the notion (in the philosophy of ethics) that "is does not imply ought."

      Heteronormativity and patriarchy

      Heteronormativity is often strongly associated with, and sometimes even confused with patriarchy. However, a patriarchal system does not necessarily have a binary gender system, and vice versa — it merely privileges the masculine gender over all others — regardless of the number of others.

      Still, heteronormativity is often seen as one of the pillars of a patriarchal society: the traditional role of men is reinforced and perpetuated through heteronormative mores, rules, and even laws that distinguish between individuals based upon their apparent sex, or based on their refusal to conform to the gender roles that are normal to their society. Consequently, feminism can be seen as concerned with fighting "heteronormativity" and the prescriptions it is seen to have for women.

      Groups that challenge traditional gender structure

      Critics of heteronormativity say that the existence of intersex, gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered people undermines any fundamental assumption that gender is naturally dichotomous. They believe it problematizes justifications such as the appeal to natural law, or certain Christian notions of faith in God's plan or belief in the goodness of Creation.

      Many supporters of heteronormativity are aware that these groups exist, and reconcile that with their beliefs by making the "is" vs. "ought" distinction. On the other hand, if what is typical is somehow related to what is good, then the fact that these groups are all numerical minorities may be significant. The issue of choice vs. biological pre-determination is also an important consideration, and supporters and critics often disagree about those facts.

      Supporters of heteronormativity may thus consider members of LGBTI people abnormal, diseased, or immoral. The range of possible social responses has and does include tolerance, pity, shunning, violence, and attempts to help members of these groups become more "normal" through compassionate or even forceful means

      ntersexuals

      Intersexual people have biological characteristics which are not unambigously either male or female. If such a condition is detected, intersexual people are almost always assigned a gender at birth. Surgery (usually involving modification to the genitalia) is often performed to produce an unambiguously male or female body, without the individual's consent. The child is then usually raised and enculturated as a member of the assigned gender, which may or may not match gender identity throughout life or some remaining sex characteristics (for example, genes).

      Some individuals who have been subjected to these interventions have objected that had they been consulted at an age when they were able to give informed consent then they would have declined these surgical and social interventions.

      Gender theorists argue that gender assignment to intersex individuals is a clear case of heteronormativity, in which a biological reality is actually denied in order to maintain a binary set of sexes and genders.

      Transgendered people

      * often seek gender reassignment therapy, thereby violating the assumption that only unambiguous female or male bodies exist.
      * do not develop a gender identity that corresponds to their body; in fact, several never develop a gender identity that is plainly male or female.
      * often do not behave according to the gender role assigned to them, even before transitioning. This is especially true for trans men, but also many trans women.
      * often identify as gay or lesbian after transitioning, and are often lumped together with homosexuals relative to their birth sex, although that is almost never correct. While some trans men did identify as lesbians for a time (although this is still a minority), trans women who identify as gay men are very rare.

      Some societies consider transgendered behavior a crime worthy of capital punishment, including Saudi Arabia, and many other non-western nations. In other countries, certain forms of violence against transgendered people may be tacitly endorsed when prosecutors and juries refuse to investigate, prosecute, or convict those who perform the murders and beatings. Currently, in parts of North America and Europe.  Other societies have considered transgendered behavior as an psychiatric illness serious enough to justify institutionalization.

      Certain restrictions on the ability of transgendered people to obtain gender-related medical treatment has been blamed on heteronormativity. In medical communities with these restrictions, patients have the option of either suppressing transsexual behavior and conforming to the norms of their birth sex (which may be necessary to avoid social stigma or even violence), or adhering strictly to norms for their "new" sex in order to qualify for gender reassignment surgery and hormonal treatments (if any treatment is offered at all). These norms might include: dress and mannerisms, choice of occupation, choice of hobbies, and the gender of one's mate (heterosexuality required). (For example, trans women might be expected to trade a "masculine" job for a more "feminine" one - e.g. become a secretary instead of a lawyer.) Attempts to achieve and ambiguous or "alternative" gender identity would not be supported or allowed. Some medical communities, especially since the 1990s, have adopted more accommodating practices, but many have not.

      Many governments and official agencies have also been criticized as having heteronormative systems that classify people into "male" and "female" genders in problematic ways. Different jurisdictions use different definitions of gender, including by genitalia, DNA, hormone levels (including some official sports bodies), or birth sex (which means one's gender cannot ever be officially changed). Sometimes gender reassignment surgery is a requirement for an official gender change, and often "male" and "female" are the only choices available, even for intersexed or transgendered people. Because most governments only allow heterosexual marriages, official gender changes can have implications for related rights and privileges, such as child custody, inheritance, and medical decision-making.

      This post was edited by Cristine, Shye BL at August 18, 2014 11:40 AM BST
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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • November 25, 2010 1:58 AM GMT
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      An excellent article, Christine! Thank you.
    • November 29, 2010 11:14 AM GMT
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      Heteronormativity , lets take this further and examine the influences of childhood and the expectations of parents, peers and society in general.

      The toys we are given, being gender appropriate, the books we read, The concept of playing mummies and daddy, Doctors and Nurses. The childrens classics, The ideal hetro image, of man and woman, The Prince and the Princess. About the only logical deviation I can recall from my childhood is the Pantomine Dame, the ugly sister and the prinicple boy.


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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • November 29, 2010 8:49 PM GMT
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      Thankyou Wendy for you appreciative comment, I do try lol, not always controversial.
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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • November 29, 2010 9:39 PM GMT
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      XXY



      Klinefelter's syndrome, 47, XXY, or XXY syndrome is a condition in which human males have an extra X chromosome. While females have an XX chromosomal makeup, and males an XY, affected individuals have at least two X chromosomes and at least one Y chromosome. Because of the extra chromosome, individuals with the condition are usually referred to as "XXY Males", or "47, XXY Males".
      In humans, Klinefelter's syndrome is the most common sex chromosome disorder and the second most common condition caused by the presence of extra chromosomes. The condition exists in roughly 1 out of every 1,000 males. One in every 500 males has an extra X chromosome but does not have the syndrome. Other mammals also have the XXY syndrome, including mice.
      The principal effects are development of small testicles and reduced fertility. A variety of other physical and behavioral differences and problems are common, though severity varies and many boys and men with the condition have few detectable symptoms.
      The syndrome was named after Dr. Harry Klinefelter.







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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • November 30, 2010 10:12 PM GMT
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      Discrimination

      Critics of heteronormative attitudes, such as Cathy J. Cohen, Michael Warner, and Lauren Berlant argue that they are oppressive, stigmatizing, marginalizing of perceived deviant forms of sexuality and gender, and make self-expression more difficult when that expression does not conform to the norm This includes lesbian, gay, bisexual, asexual, intersex, transgender (LGBTQ) people, polygamists, polyamorists, as well as others such as racial minorities. Heteronormative culture "privileges heterosexuality as normal and natural" and fosters a climate where LGBTQ are discriminated against in marriage, tax codes, and employment.
      According to cultural anthropologist Gayle Rubin, heternormativity in mainstream society creates a "sex hierarchy" that gradates sexual practices from morally "good sex" to "bad sex." The hierarchy places reproductive, monogamous sex between committed heterosexuals as "good" and places any sexual acts and individuals who fall short of this standard lower until they fall into "bad sex." Specifically, this places long-term committed gay couples and promiscuous gays in between the two poles. Patrick McCreery, lecturer at New York University, views this hierarchy as partially explanatory for the stigmatization of gay people for socially "deviant" sexual practices that are often practiced by straight people as well, such as consumption of pornography or sex in public places.
      McCreery states that this heteronormative hierarchy carries over to the workplace, where LGBTQ individuals face discrimination such as anti-homosexual hiring policies or workplace discrimination that often leaves "lowest hierarchy" individuals such as transsexuals vulnerable to the most overt discrimination and unable to find work.
      Applicants and current employees can be legally passed over or fired for being non-heterosexual or perceived as non-heterosexual, such as the case with chain restaurant Cracker Barrel, which garnered national attention in 1991 after they fired an employee for being openly lesbian, citing their policy that employees with "sexual preferences that fail to demonstrate normal heterosexual values were inconsistent with traditional American values." Workers such as the fired employee and others, such as effeminate male waiters (allegedly described as the true targets), were legally fired by work policies "transgressing" against "normal" heteronormative culture.

      In behavior, normal refers to a lack of significant deviation from the average. The phrase "not normal" is often applied in a negative sense (asserting that someone or some situation is improper, sick, etc.) Abnormality varies greatly in how pleasant or unpleasant this is for other people.
      The Oxford English Dictionary defines "normal" as 'conforming to a standard'. Another possible definition is that "a normal" is someone who conforms to the predominant behavior in a society. This can be for any number of reasons such as simple imitative behavior, deliberate or inconsistent acceptance of society's standards, fear of humiliation or rejection etc.
      The French sociologist Émile Durkheim indicated in his Rules of the Sociological Method that the most common behavior in a society is considered normal. People who do not go along are violating social norms and will invite a sanction, which may be positive or negative, from others what the majority perceives as the mean, or average.in the society.
      As normality is often hard to define, a case study was done in 2008 in which students at Woodvale Senior High School, specifically students in the music program, were exposed to a certain kind of abnormality or as it was described at the time by Dr. Summerville, "weirdness". The aim was to see what adolescents perceived as normal, or "average", and what they thought would be abstract, or as many of the participants described it, "weird". Sarah Nader and Murray Bishop, two of the test subjects were asked to have a "normal conversation" with their peers. However it soon became apparent that the discussions had between close, or even "best", friends was defined as weird by others of whom they were engaging in conversation. The conclusions of the study were that normalness is not an entirely flawed concept, rather it is simply defined so.

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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • December 1, 2010 6:55 AM GMT
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      Cristine, I must say, you write some of the most interesting and educational posts. I may not respond to all of your work but I do read all of them, you are my favorite lady on this forum.

      Thank you for all your contributions. It's people like you that makes this site so special to me.

      Big huggs....Tammy
    • December 1, 2010 12:04 PM GMT
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      Tammy,

      Thankyou also for your lovely comment. my excuse, I am inquisitive, I was diagnosed with Reifensteins syndrome, a form of AIS. I presume you have read the feature article on the home page, a rehash of a thesis I wrote at the age of 16 . Some people will say I',m very lucky. It has had a direct bearing on my appearance. Does'nt necessarily go hand in hand with Gender Identity disorders. Am I lucky? I think most of us would have preffered to be ''normal'' per se, not having to deal with either of these life complications. Would I have been happier, ignorant of these conditions, married with kids. loving wife. Who knows. Under the circumstances, something I have come to terms with and accepted. Perhaps I read to much, do too much research into my own condition, is that to find an excuse, find something to validate who I am. Lots of people here and in other forums, in fact in life in general will say they don't care why, they just know they are women, whatever. I have just taken part in a research programme into DNA abnormalities and its link to GID. Perhaps one day, transsexualism will be taken on board by the masses and quantified by testing. The only problem I see with this is that if ones DNA does not in some way confirm it. will that lead to those that do not fall into a set category fail to convince the medical criteria, that they do not have genuine feelings of a gender identity disorder...
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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • December 2, 2010 6:54 AM GMT
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      Christine, to farther the concept of Heteronormativity , and as you say " lets take this further and examine the influences of childhood and the expectations of parents, peers and society in general." I put this in so I can stay true to the spirit of this part of the thread, but will drift into life then and now.

      I have always been told we are products of our environment. Can this be true and false?
      I was born into a rough town around Pittsburgh Pa. ( McKees Rocks ) Even at that time 40's 50's we survived by the gang mentality. My mother remarried and I was moved up to the suburbs of Detroit ( It was not bad then..LOL ) My environment that influenced me then, should of been consistent in Detroit, not true. I toed the line partly because of very abusive stepfather.

      Now for part two. Having a abusive father should of created the shadow of an abusive father on my part, this also did not happen. What was normal for him should have been parted onto myself. This is another story for some other time, but was not a product of my environment.

      I will not get into to much of the Trans part of myself then, because there was nothing I could relate to as normal in this area. Confusion rained, for I found comfort in having my cousins dress me up. This normality for me was so inconsistent for the conduct at the time, and queer was just wrong and sick. Puzzled, I thought, I must be really broken.
      Heteronormativity for me, as my peers instructed me, grow up, don't cry, go to church, and support your country, sign up for the draft and defend freedom, god and country. The United States government will take you on a path of all that is good, right? Then get married, have kids and live happily ever after.

      It makes me wonder and so admire now, what kind of influences did the people in the 60"s that demonstrated against the war and government. I was told if Vietnam fell then all of Asia would fall, the domino effect. This was true in all my beliefs, that were ingrained into my mind.

      Now we move to today, two wars going on, and society say's support the troops and say thanks to them for defending freedom, they are doing what the president and country told them to do, all wars are dirty.
      Where did society thinking change to today's perspective towards the troops, compared to the 60's? The troops back then did what they were told to do, and yet, were disrespected, scorned, all wars are dirty.
      This was not a constant to my environmental structure, contrary to the expectations of what parents, peers and society in general told me to be true.
      Funny, right now I am listening to a song " Where have all the Flowers Gone " The part that always gets me is
      " Where have all the soldiers gone?
      Gone to graveyards every one.
      Where have all the graveyards gone?
      Covered with flowers every one
      For those that have an interest and have not heard it, I supplied a link below. Sorry, now back on topic.


      Now when I look back and analyze my environment, I wonder ....how did I get to this point, so contrary to my up bringing.
      I believe some things are not brought about by up bringing but genetic.
      I also have found, that a belief is not necessarily the truth.

      Christine, I thank you again, your research that is so important to you to figure yourself out, you unselfishly pass it on to people like myself that enables me to make a little more sense of my life in this world, and bring about self- acceptance. And yes I read your feature article on the home page, a couple of times. I must also say this, it was of great interest to my wife also.

      Huggs Christine.....Tammy

      http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]IIeqy34
    • December 2, 2010 1:30 PM GMT
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      Interesting read Cristine.

      I've been curious about this for some time. It seems, at least to me, that the underlying issue of heteronormavity lies with the syntax. That for the majority of the Romance languages there is a built-in binary strucuture, in which gender is obviously included. Its obvious that the majority of such languages gender many of their words but I'm convinced that there's a psychological aspect as well.

      A great example is with Colonization.

      The Western version of this had deep-seated syntactical roots. Although Greece, Rome, Iran, etc had their own notions of "being civilized" it was only the West that, for some reason, had to create "the Other"...in which, the Other was defined as the savage and/or the barbarian. With this creation than the West fashioned itself as "civilized". It is also the only form of colization in which any form of hybridity was not allowed

      It seems obvious but there's something here.

      The Greek language is difficult to work with. Unlike the Romance languages Greek is a fluid language. So, instead of having one unique word for most things (objects) it allows you chain primitive words together to form new words...so, cat+black+mine would easily be seen as my cat (just an example). This allows the language to be somewhat circular in a way, as "chains" are iterated and reiterated throughout a conversation.

      This being said, its not hard at all why I would speculate on why the Ancient Greeks had no set terminology for sexuality. Linguistics has long proved that language does indeed frame how we think, and thus, how we think about certain subject matters. Also, the Greeks invented the term "barbarian" but it only meant someone who is not Greek. Again, the circular thinking there....that Phillip "The Barbarian" chose his son Alexander "The Great" to conquer and absorb Hellenic culture. He was allowed to so due to the fluidity of the thinking. Also, their form of colonization and Rome's did not have to use a binary system for its justification.

      Now, when it comes to the subject at hand, heteronormativy...it appears that this is one extra layering on how insidious binaries are on the syntactical plane. It seems that the male/female straight/gay dichotomies almost become necessary due to the structure of the language.

      At this stage even the seemingly inoccent words of him/her seem dangerous as they cause the subject (person) to implicitly recall the ordinal ranking of pre-allocated resources to mind...that men are worth "x", women are worth "x-1", if trans then "1/0". The "1/0" from the fact that a transgendered individual is a living blasphemy to how are languages shapes are thinking.
    • December 2, 2010 1:59 PM GMT
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      Perhaps this should be read in conjunction with another of my threads, which somwhat argues the case against preconceived ideas about normal.

      http://gendersociety.com/[...]516371&
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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • December 2, 2010 9:15 PM GMT
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      Don't mind my dissent, but I strongly disagree that this and my 2 cents belong in a different thread.

      The term Trans is a syntactical qualifier, and while I respect your commitment to the physical sciences you seem to ignore or lack appreciation to the way linguistics frame human thought.

      The neuroscience is great but it has a rather derogatory undertone by nature:

      word= a linguistic object, in which all definitions are summoned by both the subject and object (the person speaking the word). In which, all current and past meanings of the object are conjured:

      Meaning, that the word takes the form of def1+def2+def3...etc to infinity. An example is Capitalism...if you ask what Capitalism is, few will give you the strict meaning (that its an economic system and nothing else) but they'll give you every other meaning under the book (definitions from other humanities).

      Thus, the word "Woman" and "Trans", when put together creates a syntactical dichotomy all on its own...when that I resent, since we need no qualifier. Yet, the physical sciences like the rest of society follows this trend in saying, "yes we're 'women' but not really". Thus I strongly resent the term transwoman instead of woman. Naturally the science, although somewhat helpful in an purely academic kind of way (as a curiosity) doesn't change anything nor does it help anything as far as our practical matters are concerned.

      In fact, I'd argue the point that it does quite the opposite. That it continues to allow such a syntactical qualifier to exist...that we're neurologically different in the same way as a psycopath is neurologically different from "normal" humans, thus our need for a different label...meaning that transwomen are still "women-not+qualifer".

      As an economist and a linguist I personally resent physical scientists for their lack of perspective and realism. I don't think you're in this camp because its obvious you mean well, but just be careful not to ignore the social implications of what you're saying.
    • December 2, 2010 9:40 PM GMT
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      Jakie

      Erm I am pointing out :'' Heteronormativity\\ a made up word, a word used to describe the social perceived norms. The reference to the other thread, is to well known and alreadyy established fact that scientist have established a more than probable link between DNA and Gender identity disorders, the word trans by definition mens to cross over. transwoman/transman. change of genders. If anything I was pointing out the social aspects of diversity from the norm and the lack of acceptance by society in general. The suggestion was not for you to post in another thread, but to point out the supporting argument to everyone for the validation of deviation from the so called norm.

      Please don't insult my intelligence by pointing out word= a linguistic object, in which all definitions are summoned by both the subject and object (the person speaking the word). In which, all current and past meanings of the object are conjured:
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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • December 2, 2010 11:04 PM GMT
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      Don't take this as a form of disrespect...

      but what "science" and clearly you mean natural science means by trans, and its implications, completely disregards what another equally prominent prominent science, a social science, has proved. Thus such a statement would be similar to me telling you what genetics is or isn't, of which I'm far from qualified, so as a scientist I'd like the same respect and I will post such things as I wish.

      Thus I'm not insulting your intelligence at all (in fact I agree with your scientific findings, but I disagree with you disregarding the social sciences), but clearly you haven't read much on syntax.

      With any object there is the common sense meaning of the word, than there is the real syntactical meaning, which frames the exact meaning, both in social norm and psychological, of the object. Clearly, you have dismissed this reality.
    • December 2, 2010 11:12 PM GMT
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      Have I ignored the social science? thats what this thread has explained, Heteronormativity is a term used in the discussion of gender and society, mostly, but not exclusively within the field of critical theory.
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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • December 2, 2010 11:28 PM GMT
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      ^ No, I read you perfectly loud and clear. Far from objecting to your view on the subject I even added support from a linguistical framework.

      I objected to you implying that it should be moved to another thread, as I strongly feel that much of the "research" is with the trans "qualifier" in mind. In fact bigenderism hasn't really been researched at all, so it seems kinda pointless to look for DNA markers for "who's trans" when the defintion of trans is still evolving...not to mention, that do to the framing of the subject matter, I equally feel that most of the researchers (excluding you of course) don't exactly have our best interests at heart.
    • December 3, 2010 12:10 AM GMT
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      Oh hugs, I was not suggesting you move your post, I was asking people to read the other thread in conjunction to this one, as to me its congruant to both sides of the perspective.
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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • December 3, 2010 12:57 AM GMT
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      ^ oh, no worries. I read the thread an concure...

      Just I wish the majority of those in the trans community had the kinda coordination that a militiary operation would have.

      Air assets take out telecommunications, artillery takes out hard targets, and infantry seizes resources.

      As a former soldier, I really wish trans individuals would agree to attack heterosexism in a similar manner as opposed to attacking each other.
    • December 3, 2010 12:58 AM GMT
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      Jakie,
      I do think you’ve misunderstood Cristine’s reference to her other thread, what I really wanted to say though…
      I found your initial post in this thread enthralling, seriously, and that doesn’t often happen. It is of course entirely relevant here, and no-one suggested it should be moved!
      A nicely written, interesting perspective. Thank you.
      xx
      ____________________________________

      To thine own self be true.

    • December 5, 2010 2:32 AM GMT
    • Thank you Christine,
      I have been studying psychology and sociology for a few years now and have been trying to focus more of my energy on gender and violence, both separate and together. I have studied many of the concepts you bring up in a lot of my classes; however this is the first time I've heard a theory which combines everything. Perhaps it is because most of the instructors are a product of the society that tries to place everyone in one of two categories (male or female). Anyways since I'm not that eligant of a speaker I will cut this short and say simply thank you for sharing this information with the rest of us.



    • December 6, 2010 11:31 AM GMT
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      http://wewillnot.wordpres[...]nt-1022

      Thats the link Zoe. I think we have come across this sort of rhetoric from lesbians before. sounds a bit like manish outpourings to me.
      All sounds a bit butch to me.
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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • December 6, 2010 12:44 PM GMT
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      http://www.bbc.co.uk/blog[...]shtml#P

      A comment I made on a BBC survey, Clcik the link for an overall picture of dissapointment and outrage scripted by other members here. Which just about demonstrates it is all about natal men and women

      # 17. At 6:53pm on 06 Feb 2010, Cristine J Shye wrote:

      I'm rather annoyed, yet again the trans community has been excluded, just when they have a chance to make their feelings known. Does the BBC think that Trans people do not have sexual preferences? that Gender dysphoria does'nt come complete with the gay staight label, contrary to what the general perception is amongst the masses we are not gay guys in frocks.

      One instance for logic would be that, male to females presenting and thinking as a female, with gender dysphoria, are not gaymen in frocks as is the general perception, but should be seen as the norm if they have leaning towards a sexual relationship with a man, straight. Males to female still bearing in mind the self identification of being women, if they fancy women, that would logically make them lesbians.

      So, the term Gay, lesbian, straight, bi still applies.

      Its bad enough that the Gender recognition Act 2004 was pushed through Parliment with an exclusion allowing the church the freedom to discriminate against the TS community, now we are being excluded from what I would regard as the only ideal situation in being associated with the LBG, A platform to get a few facts staight. Transgendered might not refer directly to sexual orientation, does that mean the BBC is so nieve to think we have no sex life as transgendered people.
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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • December 5, 2010 11:12 PM GMT
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      Hi Cristine,

      I've spent the last couple of hours trying to find the post I made of an audio of two transgendered children (that you asked about in chat). The current TGS "search" function is totally useless. Hope you have better luck, I posted as something like "Some of you might find this interesting" in, I think, the General Forum.

      It interviewed a couple of very young male to female transsexuals who met each other for the first time.

      Sorry I can't find more info.

      Best,
      Mellie
    • December 5, 2010 8:38 PM GMT
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      Hi Cristine,

      I've enjoyed and learned from this thread.

      I wonder about those children, say 5-7 years old, who declare they are the opposite gender and who's parents accept and encourage them to not be locked into the gender on their birth documents. (It does happen, a while back I posted an audio interview with a couple of them.)

      Best,
      Mellie
    • December 5, 2010 7:03 PM GMT
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      There are exceptions Matt, not all men...men who have an empathy or have an understanding of what makes a TS, in my opinion are definately not gay and its nice that some men do see us a women.

      This post was edited by Cristine, Shye BL at July 20, 2011 6:26 PM BST
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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • December 6, 2010 3:51 PM GMT
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      Wow Cris, I actually could follow that post, thanks!!

      Just a small example of more general hypocrisy. I belonged to a Leather family (BDSM) when I lived in Tulsa. Several of us belonged to a larger women's Leather group called "Oklahoma Women of Leather" or "OWL". The original jumping off point was that they had posted their requirements for participation in the group. The requirements went like this...

      "This group is open to any individual born as a woman. We also welcome any MtF transsexuals who are living fulltime as a woman,"

      Well, I thought their policy was rather exclusionary. The leader of my family was trans, but she dared not transition because she and her family had a small business as a small slaughterhouse. With all the business they pick up from redneck hunters, her business would virtually disappear overnight if they came to drop off some venison and saw "her" instead of "him".

      I brought this perceived inequity to the attention of OWL on the OWL message board. And as soon as I posted, I was attacked from every direction. So, I pulled out what I believed was a big, stinky double stardard within their by-laws, so I pointed this out to them. I pointed at their own requirements for inclusion. The fact that no matter how long FtM transsexuals had taken hormones, no matter if they have FtM SRS, no matter if they identify as males 100%, didn't matter. When I pointed this out, the leader of the group responded with a very milquetoast answer, saying that no matter how long trans men had been in transition, she believed that trans men "kept their butch heart". While I considered this to be complete hogwash, especially given that, at the time I had a trans man as a roomie and if you would have said that despite transition he "kept his butch heart" he would have punched that person in the nose. He is a MAN. I responded (rather antagonistically, I admit) That I thought trans men were men and why would they want to hang out with a women's group to begin with.

      By this time, the leader of the group tried to switch positions, saying "Well, how would we know this person just wasn't dressing as a woman to check out females." I said that since most of the women in the group were lesbians, there was already plenty of ogling going on, but I also pointed at their hypocrisy again, saying "You have men in your group today. Trans men are men. Doesn't it make more sense to welcome trans women who ARE women, along with trans men?"

      I was greeted with several "gotcha" questions from the rest of the group. Simple questions like "What is a woman?" Even the head of my house coming into the conversation didn't help at all. I was amazed at the vitriol from evven the moderate members. I was saddened by the ccompletely unfair double stardard and I eventually felt as though I had to withdraw from the group. The whole experience saddened me greatly. Up until then, the entire Leather community had seemed like one big circle, everyone singing Kumbaya. Women who I thought were friends insulted me and I have never received any apologies. Hell, there probably think I should apologize.

      Z
    • December 5, 2010 11:29 AM GMT
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      Thank you Megan.

      Now back to perceptions, misunderstandings and denial

      I have expounded this theory in other threads, particularly in the one ''Am I gay'' A few agreed with me, some were outraged.

      Lots of highly regarded psychologists would say that a M to female TS thinking, as women, presenting and living as women, its logical that in their gender orientation would logically be attracted sexually to men.. ergo heterosexual, straight, this is not judgemental
      either and is perfectly understandable..

      What I do not understand from some ''TS'' when this is put to them, as in that particular thread, come back with a ewe sex with men! thats disgusting, I'm not some gay in a dress, just because I dress in womens clothes and am a woman does not make me gay and want sex with men..

      Logic would say that if your a male to female think like a woman, and are living the life, your straight per se. being attracted to men.
      if you are attracted to women, ipso facto that would make one a lesbian? nothing wrong with that, I just could not understand the reasoning and the denial.....

      Now we go onto the more controversial aspect of sexual liasons as a pre-op, anal sex, taking the scenario above, does that emphasis that one is gay? I'm not talking about people who dress soley for the purpose of sex. the thrill. But the TS during transition If thats a way of being accepted and loved as a woman, does that make it wrong, many natal females enjoy anal sex. But don't be deluded that all the male partners partaking in this particular act/scenario is'nt a gay in denial, lol. been there and done it...







      .

      This post was edited by Cristine, Shye BL at December 8, 2014 2:00 PM GMT
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    • December 5, 2010 1:20 PM GMT
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      http://gendersociety.com/[...]385627&

      Society's attitudes to transsexuality have changed considerable over the last thirty years. Whereas once a transsexual or transvestite would be labelled as a pervert, or worse, today such people are treated more sympathetically. Discrimination still exists, as it does for most minorities, but times are changing. The recent BBC TV series Paddington Green followed the story of Jackie McAuliffe, a transsexual who worked as a prostitute to earn the money to pay for her operation. Many transsexuals find employment denied to them and as a consequence the only way to fund their transition is through prostitution. Such was the viewer interest that follow-up programmes were made and Jackie appeared in a two-page spread in Radio Times. In another recent case which received widespread coverage, a vicar who underwent a sex change operation returned to her church duties with the support of the majority of her congregation.

      Intersex

      Whilst most people believe that human being are either "male" or "female", the range of human sexuality - both physical and psychological - is much more varied. An intersex person is anyone who does not fit exactly into the current definition of "male" or "female". Such people are regarded as misfits and make easy targets for bullying.
      In fact, it could be said that intersex people are bullied the moment they are born when medical professionals insist that the baby conform to their belief in the "normality" of male or female genitalia and apply pressure to the parents to allow them to perform corrective surgery. Parents, often in shock, give their permission having been persuaded that surgery is in the best interests of their child.
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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • December 5, 2010 5:35 PM GMT
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      Now we go onto the more controversial aspect of sexual liasons as a pre-op, anal sex, taking the scenario above, does that emphasis that one is gay? I'm not talking about people who dress soley for the purpose of sex. the thrill. But the TS during transition If thats a way of being accepted and loved as a woman, does that make it wrong, many natal females enjoy anal sex. But don't be deluded that all the male partners partaking in this particular act/scenario is'nt a gay in denial

      Well, well, well this is a valid point cris, I am not sure about the last part of that statement though is it not trying to make someone the butt of a very subtle joke??

      ____________________________________

      The path of the enlightened one leaves no track-it is just like the path of birds in the sky. 

    • December 6, 2010 3:47 AM GMT
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      Hi everyone. I have to admit that this kind of clinical language escapes me often. It goes way over my head. But, I was talking to Cris in the chat room today, and I showed her a terrible link full of trans hatred directed from lesbian feminists. She told me to post it here. I hope the link works and if it does, please don't read the comments if you are depressed. The whole thing gives me a stomach ache.

      Z

      http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwewillnot.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F11%2F30%2Fwtf-is-with-the-intersex-comments%2F%23comment-1022&h=6392b
    • December 7, 2010 9:35 AM GMT
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      ^ I'm sorry you experienced that. I've noticed this kind of acting in college...alleged all female spaces were perfectly open to FTM's but not MTF's.

      Honestly, I think this stems for two things:

      1) for many folks, even (and at times) especially radical feminists...a trans individual is still viewed as a cis-gendered person. This may have somethin to do with the hostility some radical feminists have against MTF's, since we're still "men" after all.

      2) An FTM is viewed as slightly superior by society due to sexism and Patriarchy. "She" is trying her best to trade in the alleged inferior sex for the "superior" one. MTF's must be insane, and thus sexual perverts since nobody in their right mind would trade something superior for something inferior.

      The question of whether a trans invidual is rather simple in my mind, but that's only because I completely detach sexuality from gender. For me, being bigendered any binary is useless to be since there simply not applicable. Sadly, most of society holds to the assume that they are linked.

      Literally, if you take the psychological framework of Real vs Fake me takling this makes much more sense (this is the only binary I really buy into). The Real me, in our case is our gender. The Fake me is our current sex before op. During transitioning there tends to be some awkward phase where the neat pathetic binary of Male vs Female doesn't exactly fit. Thus gay vs straight, if purely looking at someone's sex isn't applicable. However, if one is neatly male or female as her/his real self (like a "pure" MTF) than the gay vs straight binary is applicable.

      I really don't see the need to get caught up in it as long as I'm seen as the Real Me.
    • December 6, 2010 3:56 PM GMT
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      Gawd, I buried the lead. When I finally left the group I told them "The only reason you allow transmen and exclude transwomen is because you think transmen are hot and transwomen are not." Stupid exclusionary bullsh1t from a supposedly inclusionary group. God, I hate that.

      Z
    • March 20, 2011 11:03 AM GMT
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      Gender is such a familiar part of daily life and social preconceived perceptions that it usually takes a deliberate disruption of accepted norms of how men and women present themselves before any notice is taken. . Gender signatures are usually so ubiquitous that we fail to notice them .....unless they are missing or ambiguous. Then we become uncomfortable until we are able to place them in one of the two recognized genders, otherwise we feel socially dislocated, unable to be at ease with them.

      In addition to the perceived norm a man can be a (transvestite-a person who adopts the guise of the opposite sex by dressing in clothing related to that gender, this can be for multiple reasons, a sexual fetish,, a form of escapism from reality, disassociation from the stresses of maintaining a gender role, getting some respite from societies expectations.)
      Then we come to the Transsexual,, a Transgendered, a person who's body appearance is incongruent with their mind set, Both these types tend to adopt the mannerisms, appearance, talking and walking of their adopted gender.
      For the individual gender construction and identity starts at birth, as to their apparent physical gender appearance, in accordance with societies expectations. Babies are then dressed and presented in such a way to indicate the assigned gender, pink for girls, blue for boys. To the toys and paraphernalia deemed applicable to their gender. Same goes for naming. From this stage the different genders are treated differently and the expectations by parents and society are different, their education, their general niche in society all mapped out for them, good fathers as providers, protectors, brilliant mothers, nursing, nurturing, etc. Even the societal expectations of their work roles.

      As soon as babies begin to talk they begin to recognize the differences generally accepting their lot in their assigned gender. Some will say they knew they were different from an early age, uncomfortable in their assigned gender, but not really knowing. The onset of puberty has its own set of problems, often this is when Gender dysphoric children really start to question their role in life and become aware , of a differing set of values even down to their sexuality.

      This is all basically an accepted form of cultural and social conditioning, how many parents would even think of dressing a boy baby in a pink romper suit. It’s not wrong in essence, it’s just that when problems do arise with gender identity disorders, society in general should be more aware of the causes and problems these issues raise and be better educated more accepting and tolerant.
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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • March 27, 2012 6:28 PM BST
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      Well, Chrissy, it has been reported that, until WWII, pink and blue were used interchangably for boys and girls (except maybe by the French). After that, it was blue for boys. Women, as usual, got to wear what they wanted to.
    • April 4, 2012 9:58 PM BST
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      Read a second-wave feminist essay, Gender Slumming by Annalee Newitz that opposed transgendered and transsexual persons. Over time she came to reconsider her perspective.

       

      http://www.genderpsychology.org/gender_queer/gender_slumming.html

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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • October 24, 2012 12:31 PM BST
    • great thread, thanks for the interesting information
    • October 25, 2012 2:53 PM BST
    • Cristine, Shye (GS Admin) said:

      For the individual gender construction and identity starts at birth, .............

      For some it might, but modern science is now finding differences in parts of the brain associated with gender - this would mean that for many transsexuals, it means that gender starts to be formed and differentiated before birth, not after birth.It would seem that researchers are proving that it is nature and not nurture that is the derterming factor here.

    • October 25, 2012 3:02 PM BST
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      Carol

      In the view of the promoters of Heteronormativity the perceived norm it does not, considered as a life style choice at the worst a perversion. But if you read the Synopsis of the etiology of Gender, which should be read in conjunction with this thread, it proves otherwise, with scientific documentation, it can even be determined as heriditary in some cases, a probablity even before conception.

       

      http://gendersociety.com/forums/topic/7790/synopsis-of-the-etiology-of-gend

       

      Just one small example from the above link:-   
      Sometimes two separate zygotes (fertilized ova) can fuse shortly after conception and develop into a single embryo with two different DNAs.

       

      In fact. it can be predetermined even prior to conception a forgone conclusion is some cases.

      This post was edited by Cristine, Shye BL at July 2, 2016 8:52 PM BST
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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • December 18, 2012 11:50 AM GMT
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      The Forum Post That Would Not Die has reached its second anniversary. Well done Cristine. Keep it going.
    • February 21, 2013 1:51 AM GMT
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      A few likes any more interesting comments, updates?
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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • May 8, 2013 10:12 PM BST
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      Great articles. They were very informative and really make you think about the societies we live in. Our societies seem to dichotomize gender and sex when it really isn’t that simple. These are things that have many more categories and those that don’t seem to fit with one of the other are stigmatized and discriminated against.  From the day were born its blue and pink trucks or cars. We are taught from day one what a boy is supposed to be and a girl it supposed to be, it’s sad sad.

    • December 7, 2013 9:20 PM GMT
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      Landing Outside of the Sex Binary

      Am I a man or a woman? That’s not a question that most people ask themselves every morning when they wake up and look in the mirror. It’s a knowledge that you grow up with and know visually from the look of your genitals: but what if that’s not the case with everyone? This is the reality that some adults experience when they learn that they were born intersex: the reality that they were not distinctively one sex or the other but had biological aspects of both. Where does ones life go from there and how damaging is that knowledge to your own self-identity?

      In many cases, intersex people are not informed of their condition until late adolescence or even early adulthood. This has proven to be very damaging to individuals because of the two-sexed society in which our culture operates. There are only two possible sexes and everyone who does not fit into them perfectly, faces some form of persecution. What our society does not account for is the fact that about one in every fifteen hundred babies is born with ambiguous genitalia that can be defined as intersex (Lareau 1). Modern society is constructed in a way that assumes that people can only be male or female but the facts do not actually support this strict view.

      Personal accounts of people born intersex provide insight into the difficulties that accompany this diagnosis. Almost every person emphasizes that his/her intersex diagnosis was most difficult because of our society’s two-sex way of thinking. The intersex condition fundamentally challenges modern society simply because there is not a place for its existence. As a result of contemporary society’s rigid views toward sex, being born intersex can result in feelings of shame, sexual deficiencies, and a lifetime of questioning ones own self-identity.

       

      http://genderbinary.wikidot.com/landing-out-sex-binary

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    • December 8, 2013 4:35 PM GMT
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      For most of the six-billion people who occupy this planet few things in our ever evolving lives are completely static, completely unchanging and rigid. Hardly ever do we give second thought to the things we believe are static and cannot change, but are we correct in assuming that anything in our life is permanent? The relation of gender (our mental constructions of being male or female [or perhaps even neither]) to sex (the anatomy of our bodies) can be such a thing. Although throughout our life the world around us, that which is immediate and that which is distant, ebbs like tides, ever-changing, we know so well that some things – such as our bodies – will always remain familiar. We may move between jobs, between cities or nations, even friends come and go, but we do not fear ever waking to find ourselves in a new body, with a new sex, or even with a new sense of gender. This though is only what we think is true.
      There are some people though, unmentioned, often unseen or forgotten, perceived as alien: like strangers in a strange world who we feel incapable of relating to. The intersex, the transsexual, drag queens and drag kings, even cross dressers deconstruct that which we may feel can never be questioned: how our perception of sex and gender seem to be linked; if I feel male then I am male and if I am male then I must feel male. Yet the truth is that our physical sex, and the more personal gender, are capable of becoming disjointed with one another. It is through the individuals previously mentioned though where we may find that which we felt so sure of before, our bodies, may in fact be no more immalleable than our dress styles. For it is from these people and out of their stories that we should recognize the often unseen truth behind sex and gender: that both are neither static, but are rather dynamic identities that are not only capable of change but capable of remodeling over-and-over throughout all of our lives.

       

      You get home at the end of a long day at work. You come inside, scoff down some food, and decide its time to hit the hay. You head to the bathroom and as you brush those pearly whites, you stare into the mirror and see somebody staring right back at you. If you’re anything like me, sometimes that person is an exact replica of you; a backwards version of that good lookin’ self you remember. Other times though, you see some stranger staring right back. This person doesn’t look like you at all. This person looks too thick, too thin, you see a pudgy stomach where you once imagined washboard abs, you see blemishes, the wrong hair color, the wrong eye color, the wrong image, the wrong person. Now imagine that every single time you looked into that mirror the wrong person was staring back. You just could not find a way to relate to that reflection. For individuals who were born with an intersexed condition, this is exactly how they can feel every single day.

      Our Society is based on two binaries. First is the sex binary that inevitably leads to a gender binary. It leads us to believe that there are two sexes, male and female which relate to the body and these sexes must adhere to their assumed genders, man or woman. Men act masculine and women act feminine. Almost every aspect of our culture has been separated to fit into either category. Things are either masculine or feminine and the system usually discourages people from mixing gender roles. For the majority of the population, we except this system and believe that bodies can only come in two forms and these forms follow their norms. What that majority doesn’t realize is that there is the possibility to be neither male nor female or both male and female or somewhere in between. One of these categories of people that do not fall into the categories of the sex binary those who are born intersexed.

      Immediately after birth, we are categorized as either male or female. But there is a large percentage (1 in 2000) whose biological sex cannot be classified. These individuals are known as intersexed (Wilchins, 72). Chromosomal and hormonal irregularities can cause a new born to have atypical, and usually ambiguous, genitalia and gonads. For many years, surgical procedures have been performed soon after birth in order to build a less ambiguous looking genitalia allowing for easier classification. The doctors would usually assign a sex as quickly as possible. More often than not, the child was assigned to be a female because it is an easier procedure (Beck). Once the aesthetics of the genitalia have been normalized, the parents would then raise their child as a female. The problem with this is that often the child will have a hormonal imbalance and genitalia that does not function fully causing for much confusion as the child reaches puberty and onward. Intersexed individuals are one of the many groups that suffer through our social construct of a sex and gender binary because they are forced into living a life as a sex and gender other than their own. They are forced to live a life identifying as either male or female because a third or fourth or even fifth option is not available.

      This post was edited by Cristine, Shye BL at July 2, 2016 9:11 PM BST
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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • May 29, 2014 8:42 PM BST
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      Madeleine Grant: We are not sick. We are not freaks. Why is it so hard not to feel like one sometimes?

      Marissa Mallo: I AM a freak but that's a story for another time...

      Lillith Cross: Normality is a myth. We are not sick or freaks. We are just extra special :)

      Cristine, Shye (GS Admin): Freak is such an ugly word., (freak the unatural) no its not natural in mainstream (NORMAL) society, BUT because we are special people, it is natural to us, thats important. Perhaps this should be added to :-
      http://gendersociety.com/forums/topic/7805/heteronormativity

      Cristine, Shye (GS Admin): I will allways remember something my aunt told a neighbour, when that person told her I was a freak and needed sorting,. My aunt replied well our house is probably the most valuable in the street, because we don't have freaks and weird tranny's living next door to us.

      Madeleine Grant: Perhaps it's just semantics, but while I acknowledge that we're not 'normal' I reject the notion that we're not normal, regardless of what society we are a part of. Does that make sense? I think it does.


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    • November 27, 2014 9:17 AM GMT
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      That darn Steven Hawkings is not normal.  Should we get rid of him?

       

      Pope Francis is not normal...for a Pope. (Thank God)....but get rid of him?  I think not.

       

      The list goes on.

       

       

       

    • February 19, 2015 8:45 PM GMT
    • Crissie! Please forgive me but I am the thick one here. I read through your work you know I do. Do I understand it all? No I do not and I am not afraid to admit it.

       

      I am me I can figure that out. Psychiatrists may help people but they do not have the answers , some think there is a cure. There is only one true cure and that is to be who you are. It is 100% natural for any person to be themselves. No Psychological test or intervention can cure it. However much a Psychiatrist may think they have a cure they are wrong.

       

      I am cured and a Psychiatrist played no part in that. The one who played the biggest part was me. The London Gender Clinic helped and I am very gratefull to them. I am a genetic fault! Nature scewed up and I along with millions of others have to live with it but , it can be done. It is harder for some than it is for others due to so many reasons. I really do not mind being me.

      I hope that made sense but I have no other answer. You amaze me with your work and I thank you for sharing it.

       

      Take care xxx

       

    • June 22, 2017 1:14 AM BST
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      Whoa...lots to digest Crissie!  and pretty thorough too...

      I sometimes feel "two spirited" in that I "live" actively in both a strong male environment with my volunteering and relate pretty well to them, but then revert back to the feminine world when finished.  If I had to choose one, it would be the feminine side. not so much for all the pretty things and all, but rather for the compassion, insight, clarity, and willingness to see things thru to a proper conclusion.  I have no desire to "win", dominate, or generally act like an ass...  Almost 8 years of hormones have smoothed over the rough edges and have allowed me to move about comfortably without drawing negative attention.  In order to hold my marriage together and remain with the only person I have ever loved, I "stradle" both gender binaries in day to day living.  But for me, being "two spirited" provides me the ability to grasp some deeper rooted issues affecting both binaries and offer a real understanding of the drivers that are behind things that normally the other gender cannot see.  I've IDd internally as a girl since my earliest recollections, then dealt with the harsh realities of physically being something else, all the while keeping the "me" intact thru all these years.  It has only been in the last 12-15 years, and especially the the last 8 on HRT that I've allowed the female to manifest herself in my daily living.  I'm content and in a very "happy place".

       

      Nice thread GF!!!

       

      Traci xoxo

    • June 22, 2017 2:26 PM BST
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      And a very thoghtful an inteligent response from you Traci, always lovely to hear of personal experiences and feelings.

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      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • June 22, 2017 6:34 PM BST
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      (smile)  Thnx!!  You always have the ability to present some very interesting threads...you're our very own "library" in here!  I so wish we were closer...would love to spend hours with you just yakking away over some drinks, laughing until we're hoarse, and solving all the world's issues!  Someday!!!

      Traci xoxo

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