So the only LGBT pub in Ipswich (My home town) has been ordered to close immediately , fantastic news? To me yes , I know local people will dispise me for this but one day they will thank me for it and say Hey Julia was right all along . I know I am right I have been saying it for years not just about this pub but about any form of segregation . Ok it is an LGBT pub (or was) But why? Why do people like us have to be segregated it makes me sad mad and frustrated all in one go. If there were a pub that had a sign outside saying "Blacks only" it would be closed down! If there were a sign outside a pub saying "Whites only"  or If there was a pub with a sign outside saying "No Gay or Trans" It would be closed down so what is the difference? Nothing thats what the difference is it is segregation and it is wrong in 2013.

Cristine shye:- Julia its not exactly segregation, its choice,   you see it as a choice forced upon us, perhaps it is,  but at least some get to enjoy a night out without the hassles,  It would be just as inviting to have a gay pub that is welcoming to straight or non trans people, as long as they were respectful of the other clientelle, surely,   Whilst I admire your stand for rights, sometimes its an impractical and impossible mission trying to make other people  be tolerant and understanding.   I do see where your coming from, but in reality, in many instances it just does'nt work.   I go to the Weatherspoons in Norbury, still get the knowing looks and the whispers from those in the know to those that are not.   One gets used to it, but imagine a newbie or a TV or even a TS that does not pass very well, some of the comments, loud whispers would destroy them.


Carol Uren: Exactly the point I have been trying to make Cristine, it will take years for society to accept trans people in all their forms, and what are the TS's/TV's/CD's supposed to do in the meantime - never dare go out.  Reform of this type does not happen overnight and until that time arrives, people need safe places to go where they will not be ridiculed or insulted (or even worse physically attacked).  Yes I agree with Julia that establshments which could bring harm to trans people should be avoided (or closed down), but many are helpful in giving a person a place to meet others in person where they can make friends and have a great evening out.

 

I have only been past that place once in a car and there were 2 police cars out the front of it with blues flashing , it attracts trouble and people think it is safe? No it is not safe there are people in this world who hate us and if they know a certian place to target us they will do so , it is not safe.

I have been invited there many times and turned every offer down because I go into any pub I wish to and get a good welcome from staff and customers.

I feel for the people who run the business but I am sure they will also realise it was a bad move to open it as just an LGBT pub , they say anyone was welcome but straight people or so called normal people steered well away from it (unless they wanted to cause trouble).

One day when I am long gone people will realise that segregating yourself from society gets you no-where and has no benefit to anyone, it is unhealthy.

So I am going to get messages today from local people saying how sad it is! No it is not sad it is good news to me because it is another part of segregation gone and hopefully will stay gone out of my home town.

The owner says he has no idea why he has been ordered to close! Well scratch you head and have a good think and the obvious will hit you.

This post was edited by Former Member at May 25, 2013 10:05 PM BST

Well, I kind of agree with the whole segregation thing Julia. But for the nervous girl first going out, it is less stressful going to a friendly place. Sure, there's nothing stopping you going to any pub or club and as you say it is good to get out there and promote trans rights. Xx

 

Cristine shye:- well reasoned answer

 

This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at May 25, 2013 9:56 PM BST

Hi Elle.

My point is there should be no need to be nervous and a lot more . The so called trans community is just that a community and a place like this website is a good place for anyone to start to learn about being yourself ect. In 20 or 30 years time is it still going to be the same? I think it will be very close to it.

Carol Uren: Whilst there should be no need for people to feel nervous in an ideal world, alas, society is not there yet and hence there is still a need for safe places.  You yourself admitted in your last line that you don't think much will have changed in 20 years time.

Take last years pride event here in Ipswich last year! I was asked to go and said no I do not need to go to a special event to show my pride anyone can see that everyday just walking through town. I think about 4000 people turned up for that and most of them wer from other places . I got talked into going by my local Hate Crime Supervisor she said please come and support me (not her support me) I went again'st my wishes and morals and it was a beautiful Summers day , free entertaiment ect. Now if that event had not mentioned the letters LGBT there would have been 50.000 people there not 4000.

 

This world is screwed up and if others out there cannot be able to just do "Normal" things like go out for a drink ect it needs fixing . Ok my life is ok, and I get by ok as many others do but I am in a tiny minority. There is no shame in being yourself and no person has the right to make anyone feel ashamed for being themselves. One day as I said when I am long gone maybe just maybe things will change but seeing that pub closed can only be a good thing because it may just push others to finding a place to go other than being LGBT only.

 

It was never a safe place to go anyway! It may have been inside but once the door closed people had to walk out and not one of those people knew who was going to be waiting around the corner. Someone sooner or later would have been hurt badly or even killed and for what? To go out for a drink. No I am pleased its doors are closed for good now.

I feel like I am the only one here in Ipswich! I know I am not but it is how it feels , the estimate is 6000 trans people in this town and the only one people see is me. Like I said it is a screwed up world and no one is fixing it . I try here but its not enough if the others are in hiding all the time.

 Cristine shye Well no contest then, if it was that type of pub, then is should be closed down

 

Julia xx

This post was edited by Former Member at May 25, 2013 10:11 PM BST

But what about girls like me? I'm terrified of going out!! Forcing me to do it in an ordinary place rather than a trans friendly bar would just make me never go out. The lgbt bar in Torquay was a home from home for me all the regulars and staff gave me confidence and self respect. If it hadn't been for that place... I'd have stayed in the hotel. I pray it never closes as it was one of the best pubs I've ever been in. By the third time of being there I was close to tears when I left cos I knew I wouldn't get the chance to go back for a long time...if ever x

 

 Cristine Shye:- One good reason for those type of venues.

This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at May 25, 2013 10:07 PM BST

Debbie,

Surely there are loads of friendly pubs/clubs in Edinburgh?

There must be.

just dress appropriately and get out there! You don't need dresses and heels, I haven't worn 'em for ages. (Mostly cos of the weather.) Watch what other women are wearing and do the same and you should be fine. Confidence is key!

Carol Uren: Not everybody has the freedom to just dress and get out unfortuntaely Melissa, they might have children who could feel the repercussions if it were known that their parent crossdresses, or they might risk their marriage because of it, or lose the love of their own parents.  Society still has a long way to go before nobody will turn a blind eye to these things.

This post was edited by Former Member at May 25, 2013 10:19 PM BST

Firstly.... No there aren't many if any trans clubs in Edinburgh. Even if there were i could never risk it. And yes confidence is the key , and I was told on numerous occasions that I wouldn't have any trouble. But I just couldn't go out without carol beside me in Torquay. The simple fact is that I don't have enough opportunities to dress, let alone go out. So confidence building probably will never happen for me x

Debs I am not trying to force anyone anywhere I will try to explain. You are a human being and you have every right to do as you please when you please and no person has the right to take that away from you. You should be able to go out wearing normal everyday wear and just blend in with everyone else .

If I get bored (its rare) I just sit in town watching everyone go by , they are like a load of Zombies anyway apart from they have not eaten me yet.

It just gets to me that young people are now growing up and openly admiting they are Gay or Trans and just get on with it so there is my 20 to 30 year hope . I will not be here to witness it but it will come and trans people can be classed as normal people and just do as I do just blend in.

Anyway Debs you are better looking than me so if I can do it I know you can.

 

I have emailed my local BBC radio station about this and I bet if they do a program about it I will as usual be the only one that turns up. You don't have to only mix with other trans girls , I don't most of them do my head in keep bloody moaning all the time about stupid things a child would ignore thinking the world owes them a bloody favour! Well it does not owe them anything. Maybe it is just me but I still say it is wrong to segregate people.

Julia x

Julia,

 I agree that in an ideal world segregation is not the best way, but you need to realize that we are all different and have a different set of "life circumstances" and fears. Your circumstances may allow you to go to any bar you want to... but many people on this site do not feel the same way as you and I think it is unfair to trivialize the fears that people other people have.

 Would you do the same to someone who is terrified of heights, or spiders, or the dark?

 Would you insist that the sale of light bulbs and candles be outlawed...just because you feel that people who are afraid of the dark should "get over that fear"??

 In this case, you exercised your right to avoid using that particular bar... do you feel you have the right to remove the opportunities for other people to use that bar as well?

 I go to any place I want to...and I do not try to force my preferences on other people.

 

Cristine shye:- logical response.

This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at May 25, 2013 10:14 PM BST

Julia, gay pubs and clubs are not exclusionary of straight people (per your example of pubs which hung a sign outside saying "No Blacks").  Indeed, many straight people do go to the Meadfoot Inn in Torquay because of the friendly, welcoming atmosphere which has been fostered by the owners and bar staff of that establishment.  The same is true of the Candyfloss, the LGBT club in Torquay, it is welcoming of straight people and cis people alike.  It is human nature to gather in places with people who are like-minded.

If we followed your suggestion, then the next logical step would be to ban any groups which 'specialise' in various activities eg model plane building, walking clubs, debating societies etc. as these cater for people with a common interest.

Yes, it as all well and good saying that we should all be able to go wherever we want to, as I do - but you also have to recognise that in todays society, this is not always possible for everybody because of their circumstances.  For instance, if a TV/CD has a family, is it fair that their children could be victimised because one of their parents happens to cross dress - that would be negligent of that parent to 'out' themselves to the world and ignore the consequences of their actions on others.  In an 'ideal' world this would not matter, but we all have to live in the society that exists today, not some far off utopian society of the future.

Yes, those of us who can are pushing at the boundaries of the envelope, and yes, it will take time before society accepts us without any problems - but until that happens people like Debbie (and lots of other people on this site) quite rightly have to rely on safe harbours which exist now in order to go out and enjoy themselves.

Just my humble opinion though.

This post was edited by Former Member at May 20, 2013 8:00 PM BST

I totally agree Carol. As you said

 

"Yes, it as all well and good saying that we should all be able to go wherever we want to, as I do - but you also have to recognise that in todays society, this is not always possible for everybody because of their circumstances.  For instance, if a TV/CD has a family, is it fair that their children could be victimised because one of their parents happens to cross dress - that would be negligent of that parent to 'out' themselves to the world and ignore the consequences of their actions on others.  In an 'ideal' world this would not matter, but we all have to live in the society that exists today, not some far off utopian society of the future.

Yes, those of us who can are pushing at the boundaries of the envelope, and yes, it will take time before society accepts us without any problems - but until that happens people like Debbie (and lots of other people on this site) quite rightly have to rely on safe harbours which exist now in order to go out and enjoy themselves.

 

For me having the safe harbours over the last few years has helped my confidence grow to the stage where, with friends i will go out in the main stream world, but locally i will only ever go to the safe havens. The reason is as you state and them some. For me personally it would effect both my partner and my daughters work/buisnesses, which if I ever decided to go further with Monique they would need to manage without my income.

 

Yes I would love to just be out there being Mon when and where I liked, but we all have to make sacrifices in one way or another. For now this is my sacrifice, if things ever move on with Mon, then the sacrifice would be much worse.

 

Mon x

 

 

Carol you are aware I think that I had no education but I can see it from all directions and I have witnessed it from all directions . We all lead different life styles yes , it is that stigma that we are some kind of weird people who others percieve us to be that needs to be dispelled! Like the bloke in a dress kind of thing , it would be hard work catching me in a dress! Special occasion yes but any other time its jeans and a top ( nice jeans nice top).

Then I have this problem of me being the only one here in this town with a population heading to 150.000. The pub in question was in a run down part of town so not a pleasant place , it was a disaster waiting to happen and most who went there did not even come from around here.

 

I truly feel for girls like Debbie but girls like her should not have to live in fear from anyone. I have had that fear but only once from one ignorant man but now they fear me. I am not a monster but they know what will happen if they mess with me and I will stand up for anyone who gets messed with around here (if the buggers came out).

Its not that bad a world I know I live in it and so do you and others on this site . 

So here I am living in a town with 6000 trans people and the only time I see a few of them is a night at some meeting to discuss so called problems , they are not even problems though that is the problem , I give them the answers and all I get is well its ok for you. So what is different about me? Nothing thats what , these people are single with no strings and some are under the care of Charing cross supposed to be doing RLE and I see them as men in town. So they only become female for the NHS .

Cristine Shye:- You are you, confident and outgoing, some are not so fortunate, so perhaps a bit of leeway   As for those that dress as men most of their RLE are only deluding themselves.   A few that do make an effort do need a safe haven, a place to feel comfortable, a place to start and grow.

 

I just want to see a change that is all but its not going to happen I will never see it.

Carol Uren: It will change Julia, maybe not in our lifetimes, but it will happen - and until then there will be a need for safe places for those that will not or cannot sacrifice their and their loved ones lives in pursuit of their own goals.

 

Julia x

PS I think you all look great in the pic x 

This post was edited by Former Member at May 25, 2013 10:25 PM BST

If people are supposed to be doing RLE - yet not adhering to the rules.... then it's the fault of the NHS for not screening and following up on their "customers"

 

Cristine Shye:=  Not exactly practical and not needed.

This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at May 25, 2013 10:16 PM BST

I have had a bit of time to look at the comments properly now and I can see what you all mean and what you are saying here. I still stick by my original post I am pleased it has gone.

The man who runs the place says he has no idea why he has to go! He says the contract states 28 days notice by both parties . Something must have happened to for the owner of that pub to be able to break that contract as it is a legal document. It will come out what that reason was but my guess is the trouble it was causing and that is why I am pleased it is gone. Anything that gives us a bad name can only be a good thing in my eyes that it is taken away.

If a good decent place opened up in this town which welcomed anyone and everyone then to me that would be great. As I have said I had never entered the place , but if it is giving others and me a bad name because of other peoples problems then that is a good thing and I am not being selfish. Anything that gives trans people or myself a bad name is just putting us back another step and I want things to go forward not backwards.

 

This whole affair is just going to make life here and anything that I have done to make things better make people think we are weird or something along those lines. It will be in the news I presume and I can imagine what is going to be said about us and they will not be nice things it will be just the normal well its gone from our back yard now "But this is my back yard too" I have pride in this town and I do not want the reputation of any trans people ruined by a business that is attracting trouble for all of our sakes.

 

You can all have your safe places and that is fine by me but I do not believe that place was safe , and its contract being cut at such short notice must surely say something.

 

And I still hate segregation but I respect the reasons behind why some need to be able to have that piece of time.

Cristine Shye:- Now we are getting to the point, at last some clarification.

 

Julia x

This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at May 25, 2013 10:23 PM BST

Donna the NHS has better more important things to do than follow someones every move . They will get caught out in the end but untill they do get caught out they can live their lies.

to a responce to the RLE when you say you see them walking around as men do u mean they grow there beard during the day or they just dress in cloths that a man can wear at day time and dress in nice fancy female outfits like dresses etc at night ..most women i know do that .... there is a dif between wanting to be female and looking like a women perhaps thats the nhs issue been female is not about dressing up in dresses and wearing makeup iv got plenty of male friends that do that

i want to be female theres a dif been able to dress in dresses and skirts is just a bonus i guess to look all pretty, my cousin has shorter hair than me she hates having long hair and dresses like a gaming geek at a convention with halo game tops, jeans and trainers when shes out and about the town shopping for food etc her friends take the mick and call her a guy sometimes she does way more male stuff than they do i know we TG girls have to dress a little because a born women dressing in the above can still look female but if i walked with her and dressed in the same clothes id def be called sir mr etc etc no argument there

perhaps you all have got some tunnel vision of what i feel i want to be ... and perhaps have it wrong for what u wanted to or want to be because you have to do it for the nhs who also have a bad bad view of what it means to be female... perhaps these ppl you see walking around during the day dress up in skirts etc to u in your meetings because thats just what they expect you want to see and perhaps they are right in that.
but like i said i think the system has it slightly wrong on why i want to be female if i was able to id have children once iv changed over, but we can only dream tho right


just throwing that out there not to have a go but to make you see that even your views have been tainted by the system


i dont know any places i can go in hartlepool but in durham when im at jamies there are a few places i feel welcome and enjoy all the ppl he hangs out with are great have good music and dress up in all sorts of crazy outfits with black makeup etc so me dressing as a women just doesnt get a second look compared to how some of them dress i did get told i need some black lipstick tho lol cant hide my face shadow unfortunatly

This post was edited by Rebecca Armstrong at May 21, 2013 9:34 AM BST

RLE is living as a female all of the time not playing games and hanging around town with all the males and dressed as a male and clearly acting like one .

Cristine Shye:- these are not the people we are discussing and this bit seem irelevant

 

Later I have no time right now. x

This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at May 25, 2013 10:26 PM BST

Hi Julia,
I can see it from all points of view really.
If the place was a bit dodgy, then you don't want to be associated with it. It gives anyone LGBT a negative reputation in the eyes of 'normal' people (and just what is 'normal' anyway but that's a whole other debate!!).
But I know we do need sympathetic places to go where we won't be treated like exhibits in a zoo, gawped at or get a bit of abuse. I am referring to the times that me and Em have gone out together. There are some cracking LGBT venues and some cities have whole LGBT areas. Birmingham for example. A great night out.
I have an idea of the courage needed to get out of the door and into the real world. Blimey, I felt nervous when we went out. It's a big thing.
Also from my point of view, I have always found LGBT places to be great venues to get away from straight blokes who seem to think they can pester women when they are out. (I am talking about a while ago! I don't get pestered by anyone these days.. Ha ha).

But in an ideal world it would be lovely to have everyone being accepted for who they are and all of us getting along. Fingers crossed eh!
Xx

.and just seen this in The Independent... Even gay couples stick in their own circles as this poor guy says in the article. If you step outside your circle, you get a beating.. this is still going on in our society.
It is disgusting behaviour by people who think they are better than others, and I wish I had the answer to it. But I'm a bit of a coward and dont fancy having my head kicked in for going out with Em, or Em being attacked either. Not any one of you for that matter.
Yes, Julia, being active and vocal and educating people IS a good way forward. But if the gay community, which lets face it is very slowly being accepted, is still being treated like this, I fear for the trans community.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gay-couple-beaten-in-park-urge-mps-to-moderate-language-on-gay-marriage-8624531.html

X

Hi Elle .

Sorry for the late reply its been a long day. I am fully aware of what goes on in this mad world we live in. I respect we all have different circumstances and I have enjoyed watching you and Emma's journey so far. About 500,000 correct born Females are raped or sexualy assaulted each year in this country and they are just the reported ones . No person is imune from hate or assault or murder that is a fact .

 

The safest place for any person is in a town or city centre where there are a lot of people and also CCTV . The place I said I am pleased it has gone was not safe! No CCTV boarded up shops and run down it is a dump to put in plain terms . 

 

Maybe I should consider myself special as I seem to be the only one around here who just gets on with life who knows? I get treated well everywhere I go and always get a good welcome from all.

 

I can see yours and others points about felling safe with like minded people and I would not want to take that away from you and Emma or anyone. But just imagine the 3 million plus trans people all coming out at the same time! Then doing it everyday , you know what people would just get used to it. You are aware I have had my share of hate but it was a one off (hopefully) but now I don't give a rats arse how big any man is I am prepared for it so it will not happen again.

Cristine Shye:- bit of confidence gained from going to trans friendly venues, perhaps a few more will be outgoing and as confident as you

 

P: And you don't get pestered? I do .

 

Julia xx 

This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at May 25, 2013 10:29 PM BST

"One day when I am long gone people will realise that segregating yourself from society gets you no-where and has no benefit to anyone, it is unhealthy."

I am intrigued as to why a transgender community website is an ok form of self segregation, and yet a transgender specific club is not.

It seems to me there's an element of walking it like you're talking it, which is fine, honestly it is... but logically it comes across as double standards.

I hope you don't take offence at this because I don't mean any, but I am interested why you consider one is a worse form of self segregation than the other

Antonia Myers said:

"One day when I am long gone people will realise that segregating yourself from society gets you no-where and has no benefit to anyone, it is unhealthy."

I am intrigued as to why a transgender community website is an ok form of self segregation, and yet a transgender specific club is not.

It seems to me there's an element of walking it like you're talking it, which is fine, honestly it is... but logically it comes across as double standards.

I hope you don't take offence at this because I don't mean any, but I am interested why you consider one is a worse form of self segregation than the other

Julia Ford says.
To start no offence taken and for second this is a website it is not segregation.

I do not spend my life on a trans website I live it , its what lives are for living.

I also respect others views I am not trying to force my own on them . The place this is about was a dump and I am pleased it has gone. If anyone in this town wants to open a decent safe place then that is fine by me but I still will not enter it.

fair enough Julia, thanks for your reply.

 

It seems that your concern is more to do with the specific club, the toilet of a club you refer, rather than these clubs in general or LGBT specific communities.

 

if so, that's great... these places should be judged on their merits and if they are doing more harm than good then you are right to have this opinion, but I think some slack should be shown for these types of places because in a lot of cases they are forced, through no fault of their own, to the margins so can be a bit more of a dive in a dodgier location.

 

The fault for that is in wider acceptence, not in the clubs or clientele themselves.

 

Julia, your original post was a flame on segregation in any form but particularly for Trans.  im not entirely sure that your opening argument is the same as your closing one..........however..i happen to know that you are madder than a bucket of frogs..so im not gonna push the issue. 

Yes Debbie I do hate segregation but I do respect yours and everyone else's right to feel in a safe invironment . I cannot help the way I feel and you know me I am honest about it.

I happen to love this town I live in and anything that gives transgender people a bad name then I say good riddance to it.

Some headcase said to me why don't you open a trans shop here? Yeah that would be like the grand opening of a can of baked beans , who the effin hell would be my customers? I would be lucky to get one a month.

 

I am all for anything good here but not that place . I emailed my local BBC station about it yesterday and they went out and spoke to some bloke I have never heard of and he said he is sad its going! Well it is going tomorrow at 8am they are kicking the people out of there and as far as I am concerned the bulldozers can crush the whole area and turn it into something decent or ever a car park.

 

And you know me Debs I always do things backwards and end in the middle and start at the end. More Whisky cake me thinks .

Oh yeah I will mail your numbers tomorrow.

 

XXX

"Tavern where . men are butch wear leather trousers, white tee shirts and leather caps and the women are even more butch. and a mixture of limp wrists and lisping camp OTT men"

What decade is this bar located in? I didn't think places like this existed outside of the Police Academy movies!

"Tavern where . men are butch wear leather trousers, white tee shirts and leather caps and the women are even more butch. and a mixture of limp wrists and lisping camp OTT men"

Sounds like a fun night out.  

Do they do a meat raffle?

Carol Uren: I realise that you were trying to lighten the thread, but it's not really helping the debate

This post was edited by Former Member at May 25, 2013 10:33 PM BST

I can only say what I know about this place as I have never been in there , past it once as I said and two police cars out the front with blues flashing. I am aware there was a trans prostitute there and there may have been more I cannot say.

A contract is a legal document and it was broken by the owner not the runner of the place . The owner must have seeked legal advice to order its immediate closure. The man who ran the place is pleading ignorance , I have had a response from the BBC and as there seems to be so much confussion over this they will not comment untill it becomes clear as to the reasons why it has gone.

 

Was it safe? Again no it was not , it was a dissaster waiting to explode and the owner has stepped in to prevent it exploding as far as I can see.

 

Me personally? Only once in my life have I visited a trans venue (another closed) I am sure there was a sign on my arse saying "Feel free to touch it when you feel like it" or even stick your hand between my legs.

 

I am not stupid I do realise these places are important to people as a start or just a place to go to be themselves and feel safe and I do not want that taken away from anyone , but what I want to see is acceptance for all , that means anywhere they go .

 

Me being Transexual does not make me any better than the next person but it also does not give anyone the right to treat me as a lesser human being than them and that applies to all of you whatever you are in trans terms.

I can only try to imagine what it is like for a Transvestite or Cross dresser or what ever anyone is , I read things about it but have no idea how it feels I only know how I feel.

To finish this post the pub has gone and I am pleased it has. I am ok about anyone opening a safe clean place in a safe clean area for the sake of others not myself I will stick to Wetherspoons or my local where I feel safe and welcome.

 

Thanks to all but I still hate segregation .

 

Julia x

Julia,  surely it is only segregation when people prevent you from going into an esablishment because of your race, colour, sexual or gender identity i.e it would be segregation if Wetherspoon's or any of the pubs that you visit hung a sign outside saying "No trannies or poofs allowed in these premises".  Or if that pub in question had hung a sign outside saying "No straight or cis people allowed in these premises".  If people choose to visit a certain establishment because other like minded people tend to gather there, that is merely socialising.

You can get groped anywhere, not just in a gay establishment.  When I lived in London and travelled to work on the tube, I was frequently groped  and because generally the trains were so tightly packed there was little you could do about it.  As far as gay venues I have been in, people have never groped, leered or made obscene suggestions to me they have been, if anything, far more hospitable, friendly and warm than many straight places I have been in.  Just ask any of the girls who went to the Meadfoot Inn in Torquay how they were treated - and far from being dives, their toilets have been amongst the cleanest I have ever been in.

It may sound odd..but I find Gay bars in my area are "far from friendly" to members of the trans community.

Carol Uren : OK - a reasonable comment on how you find things

This post was edited by Former Member at May 25, 2013 10:36 PM BST

Question is it wrong to have a bar that is targeted towards women, soft furnishings pretty colours, rather than spit and sawdust. would it be wrong for men to go in the pub? no but which would you choose? the point being the pub did not stop straight men going it only catered for the tastes of its target audience. like if a pub wanted to be a sports bar would it be wrong for women to go in no would the publican expect mainly men to go in yes. Its not segregation its choice free choice. If a business targets its business at a particular sector is that wrong no. As far as I'm concerned that's the point its free choice. It is not about Gender or sexual leaning rather where does the client choose to spend their money. if the bar had been a bar for pigeon fanciers and was closed down would you even care no. Its you and society making the labels the business is only interested in making a living.

Cristine shye:-  Great and considered point

This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at May 25, 2013 10:34 PM BST

I agree Carol and you must have been on the same tubes I have. The way I see it is , if a venue like the one I am talking about here in this thread is clearly making it for trans and gays only and not making others welcome it is in a sense breaking the law . To make straight people feel uncomfortable or not welcome is segregation "Without the sign" I cannot say until all facts come out but I believe that was its down fall and also grounds to have its contract taken away.

 

And then we have what I call self segregation! A certain minority cuting themselves off from the outside world in one place , that is their choice to do that.

I am sure the place in Torquay is a lovely place and you all seemed to have a good time and welcome there and there are many places like that . The dump here that has now gone was not like that , the Meadfoot Inn you mentioned most likely did not have a trans prostitute proping the bar up waiting for her next customer.

 

It is just me that is all nothing more! My stupid dream that one day none of this will be needed. I count myself lucky that I can just go into just an ordinary place and get treated with respect by the staff and other customers and just enjoy an evening out with my female friends who all happen to be non trans and a few male friends who are not gay ,or maybe but I am unaware of it.

 

Maybe one day it will sort itself out and everyone and anyone can just do as they please with no problems and just lead what I call a normal life and just blend in with the rest of society and their local community.

 

Julia.

 When does it get to the point that we feel we are justified to "Jam" our rights down the throat of other peoples rights???

 When does it come to the point that our lives seem to be incomplete unless we are "hunting" for causes to follow?

 

Cristine Shye:- Not really helpful when most people have come round to seeing all the other points of view, If it was'nt for rights campaigners and people demanding rights, we would be left in eternal darkness.   Nobody is overiding other peoples rights, the expressed concern is we have rights as well as anybody else, to be people.

It sounds like that if we are made unwelcome, we should kow tow and slink away.   Is that other peoples rights over us?

This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at May 25, 2013 10:44 PM BST

Doanna Highland said:

 When does it get to the point that we feel we are justified to "Jam" our rights down the throat of other peoples rights???

 When does it come to the point that our lives seem to be incomplete unless we are "hunting" for causes to follow?

Julia Ford says.

 

When we get to the point where we all have equal rights is the simple answer.

Julia,

 We all have equal rights now..."is the simple answer."

Carol Uren:  Yes we do have equal rights in law (in the UK) to a certain extent - but until society accepts fully those rights, we still risk being insulted, refused housing and employment, attacked or even murdered.  It's no good having equal rights if you are lying on a slab in a mortuary.

 When I mentioned jamming "our rights down the throat of other peoples rights" and "hunting for causes to follow", I was referring those who seem to only be satisfied when they are on some kind of angry, vindictive, and hateful crusade against anything they believe does not fully agree with their interpretation of the way things should be. Blindly lashing out against anybody, or anything, that could possibly hinder their idea of progress - while totally disregarding the fact that those people, or entities, may actually have rights of their own as well.

Carol Uren: Slightly provocative don't you think Doanna??

Carol, I did not refer to being refused housing, employment, or being attacked , or being murdered. Those things are areas which are well covered by the same laws that protect everyone.. regardless of any gender orientation.

This post was edited by Doanna Highland at May 27, 2013 4:04 AM BST

Cristine shye:- Provocative response inciting further argumentative discourse

This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at May 25, 2013 11:14 PM BST

Cristine shye:- argumentative and not raelly applicable to the thread.

This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at May 25, 2013 10:51 PM BST

And here we go again. Shame.

I don't bother reading most of the posts now.  Arguing over the internet is like cricket.  Absolutely pointless!

This thread is now temporarily locked until further notice.

We encourage discussion and healthy debate about topics which are posted in these forums and it is OK to disagree with the thoughts of another person, but this one has simply descended into insults being hurled around and has turned vindictive.  Time for people to calm down a bit I think.

This post was edited by Former Member at May 25, 2013 3:40 PM BST

OK Cristine and I have been through the thread and added various comments and deleted inappropriate posts.  I will now reopen the thread - but please try to put any points that you want to make fairly and without rancour.  Trying to belittle other members here is totally unwarranted.  Debate is healthy and can lead to broadening of minds if made in the correct manner.

Any further flaming of any member will result in the whole topic being deleted - no further warnings.

Thank you carol and Crissie for taking the time to do this. Re reading this thread now, it makes much more sense and in fact is a very very good debate. Back on topic now. I was in a gay bar in Edinburgh last night ( not for long... I was on my way home) and speaking to the barman, I asked if they had many trans clientele. The jaw dropping response was " no - we are not that kind of bar" !! Now you might think that his comment was insulting in the extreme but further investigation proved useful ... The pub does indeed welcome trans people and in fact positively encourages it. The barman had initially thought I was a predator ( the shifty eyes and the stubble gave me away) and was " protecting" his trans clients from unwanted attention ( even though none were in at the time) I had to " out" myself before we could have an honest discussion though. But in the end I was delighted that there was this sense of community and protection and told him so. As I said previously in this thread, I cannot risk going out close to home ( this pub was fine as it caters for all, so being seen wasn't a risk as I have gay friends). The girl who carol described earlier who sacrifices her needs for the sake of her family is me. If any of my children were subject to abuse or embarrassment because of me I would die. I seemed to have strayed from my initial point ( not like me) so I will summarise by saying that I'm happy there are safe venues. It gives me hope that one day I will be able to be me. These places are a great " stepping stone" to confidence I think as others have said. Xxx

I as actually in Edinburgh for my first proper night out dressed. There was an area called the pink triangle where there are several gay pubs which we visited. Of course there were straight people there too! As in Manchester's "Gay Village", it is open to all and in fact is quite the opposite to segregation. In The Village you will see the whole gamut of sexual and gender orientation, including the straightest of straight people.
Back to Ednburgh... we ended up at Frenchies, which at the time was frequented by many TG's. It was a Tuesday night so I think we were the only ones in, but there are most definitely "safe" places for TG's to go, or at least that's the impression I got of Edinburgh, and not just the pink triangle, when I was there.
Welcoming TG's or gays or whatever in a particular pub is not segregation. It's a chance for them to get out and meet like-minded people and integrate with "normal" people as well. Whether TV or TS or anywhere in between, many of us feel happier going to TG pubs and clubs when we first start going out. These sort of places were an essentail stepping stone in my journey; I met loads of girls like me, some transitioned, some with no plans to, some not sure, but all happy to be out and talking with each other about such things. I spent a little over a year going mostly to TG freindly places in Manchester, and a couple of visits to London too, as well as stepping out into broad daylight and going to regular shops, cafes etc in the big cities once I'd realised that the ground wasn't going to swallow me up as soon as some cisgender person saw me. In fact my first daytime shopping trip while dressed was in the Eastend of London, far removed from the quiet streets where I live. Not scary though, I was just glad to be me and out there.

When we start on our journey, wherever it may take us, we need "friendly" places to get us on our way. My year of stepping stones and occasional dipping my toes in the water was fabulous and fun, and I met some wonderful people. Being able to meet so many other girls, get different perspectives, and most of all have a great time being myself is what made me choose my destination.
And here I am.
Apartheid was segregation, TG pubs are not. I have been to dozens of them, I have never seen one where there are no cisgenders.
I'd call that integration, not segregation.
xx
This post was edited by Lucy Diamond at May 26, 2013 12:35 PM BST

Well said Lucy xxx

It is a psychological fact that people like to be with others who are like themselves. That's not segregation its just simply how groups work. 

I can put a sign up, "Women Only" and that would be legal but it is illegal to frame the wording negatively to read: "No Men Allowed"

The first sign is inclusive but the second sign is discriminatory.

That's not segregation either.

Chalice

This post was edited by Former Member at May 26, 2013 12:51 PM BST

Most (95%) of my friends aren't TG and the vast majority are genetic females, I go see bands and socialise with everyday people all the time. However, I've spent the last 2.5 years building my confidence, learning what clothes suit me, don't emphasise my broad shoulders, etc. (I'm a 38B and do know genetic females with bigger frames than me, but they are very rare.)

 

I rarely wear dresses and high heels either, low heels, tunic tops, jeans, leggings, etc. (I'm not a teenager!) I go everywhere now and have been full-time since May 2009. I feel no need to go to trans-friendly places. I get very few problems, I'm just friendly with everyone.

 

However, as Lucy said when you first start going out, you have to learn these things and obv TG friendly places help you start to do that. I have just got involved with a local landlady friend to create a regular TG night at a local pub for people who haven't got where I have yet. She's good friends with one of the ladies from 'My Transexual Summer' too and she may well visit.

 

I've also got TS friends in Derby who have said they would support it too. I myself don't need it, but I remember what it was like for me 5 years ago when I started transitioning (scary at first) so it will help some peoples confidence / knowledge and obv help the pub too.

 

Regards, Mel.

Well said Lucy!

Melissa, I'm glad that landlady was so helpful to you.

Slightly apart from that, I wonder what would happen if a person approached a pub that had an almost exclusive Gay clientele and asked the owners if they would make one of the nights of the week a "TG" night? If the owners agreed...GREAT! But if the owners refused because they would lose too much business from the regular clientele finding another bar, what recourse would that person have? Would it be the owners fault - or the clienteles fault?

Which one could a "Human Rights" case be brought against? Is there even a Human Rights issue here?

Surely if the regular clientele prefer to be at a pub with only gays...do they not have the right to change to a pub more in-tune to them...with like-minded people?

Do the owners not have a right to look after their financial interests?

I seems to be an area that needs defining and...how far should things go?

 

Cristine,

"It sounds like that if we are made unwelcome, we should kow tow and slink away.   Is that other peoples rights over us?"

If I feel uncomfortable or unwelcome in a place...then it is also my right to not go back to that place.

If I join a "movie club" and find out they only show gay movies, or some other form of movies that make me feel either conspicuous, or unwelcome or uncomfortable. Should they be made to change the style of movies they show?

Or should I quit going to that movie club?

Personally, I would quit going to that movie club.... because it is also my right.

I wouldn't consider that as "cow-towing and slinking away" and neither would I consider it as another persons rights superceding my rights.

 

My point is...sometimes "rights clash with each other" and I don't think anyone can win in that kind of situation.