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  • 11 Nov 2016
    Why do i feel so ashamed that I am so jealous of most Cis female and all she or they can offer. when they talk about there body parts when us non Cis females do not have these natural body parts ? Is because I should of been or wish I was born with them
    1095 Posted by sam burke
  • Why do i feel so ashamed that I am so jealous of most Cis female and all she or they can offer. when they talk about there body parts when us non Cis females do not have these natural body parts ? Is because I should of been or wish I was born with them
    Nov 11, 2016 1095
  • 30 Oct 2016
    Just over 2 years since I come out as ftm, over 1 year on hormones. So life before as I know it now I identified as a straight feminine female (tried to), I was attracted to men, masculinity in women (butch) I was always done up daily make up, nails, hair, clothes etc, if I didn't I would feel like a complete failure, didn't have many women friends, got along with men as crushes, mutual friends, dates etc Now two years out as trans, I am comfortable with my self that I don't have to dress up in my best just to pop up the shop for milk ( which is a good thing ) BUT!! Since I've come out I have lost my confidence when it comes to interacting with males, ie at the gym , I am blessed that I have male passing privilege but I avoid all eye contact n get to my destination with my eyes towards the floor, that was never like me before, I now tend to be more comfortable with females then before, making friends, I will be more comfortable with a group of women instead of men (before was visa versa). And what I'm attracted too just got a whole lot more complicated, without trying to put people into boxes or "labeling" anyone I don't like masculine men but I find them attractive to look at and that is all, I like feminine males, with out stereotyping too much the "feminine males" I've interacted with till now have come with a hole load of drama which I'm not used ( just In my experience ). The "butch" lesbian (again sorry for stereotyping, it's what I find attractive) they are not interested as they are attracted to women (femininity in general) and me as a Transman havent got that much femininity, and if I have it would come across (stereotypically ) as gay :/ To top it all of I have a personal trainer that I work out with twice a week, and I think I have a crush on him. He knows I am trans, he is straight, still doesn't stop me from having inappropriate thoughts about him during our sessions, and as I'm body building training (early stages, nothing to brag about yet) there have been some pretty not appropriate position we've been in the the naughty thoughts just keep coming (pun not intended) Not sure why I felt the need to spill my guts, hope this helps some one if they feel like this and if any one else has felt like this would love some advice feed back
    961 Posted by Samual Davison
  • Just over 2 years since I come out as ftm, over 1 year on hormones. So life before as I know it now I identified as a straight feminine female (tried to), I was attracted to men, masculinity in women (butch) I was always done up daily make up, nails, hair, clothes etc, if I didn't I would feel like a complete failure, didn't have many women friends, got along with men as crushes, mutual friends, dates etc Now two years out as trans, I am comfortable with my self that I don't have to dress up in my best just to pop up the shop for milk ( which is a good thing ) BUT!! Since I've come out I have lost my confidence when it comes to interacting with males, ie at the gym , I am blessed that I have male passing privilege but I avoid all eye contact n get to my destination with my eyes towards the floor, that was never like me before, I now tend to be more comfortable with females then before, making friends, I will be more comfortable with a group of women instead of men (before was visa versa). And what I'm attracted too just got a whole lot more complicated, without trying to put people into boxes or "labeling" anyone I don't like masculine men but I find them attractive to look at and that is all, I like feminine males, with out stereotyping too much the "feminine males" I've interacted with till now have come with a hole load of drama which I'm not used ( just In my experience ). The "butch" lesbian (again sorry for stereotyping, it's what I find attractive) they are not interested as they are attracted to women (femininity in general) and me as a Transman havent got that much femininity, and if I have it would come across (stereotypically ) as gay :/ To top it all of I have a personal trainer that I work out with twice a week, and I think I have a crush on him. He knows I am trans, he is straight, still doesn't stop me from having inappropriate thoughts about him during our sessions, and as I'm body building training (early stages, nothing to brag about yet) there have been some pretty not appropriate position we've been in the the naughty thoughts just keep coming (pun not intended) Not sure why I felt the need to spill my guts, hope this helps some one if they feel like this and if any one else has felt like this would love some advice feed back
    Oct 30, 2016 961
  • 23 Oct 2016
    It is unfortunate that the early researchers tried to popularise their work, and presumably themselves, with this title ( Patricia A Jacobs et al in Edinburgh, 1959 and several articles in the Lancet: 2 January 1960 and 17 September)   Bernard Lennox, Principal advisor on medical terms to the Oxford English Dictionary chose to publish this erronious and misleading word to describe XXX females.   Triple X Syndrome occurs in 1 in 1000 girls. It is NOT inherited. The majority are never diagnosed. Some have XX cells and XXX cells. This is called a mosaic. Observable physical anomalies: rare except for 'taller than average and sisters'. So few XXX females are identified that effects are not easily identified and samples may not be significant: characteristics may include:- No effects or extremely mild Stature - tall (accelerated growth to puberty), small head, epicanthic (eyelid) folds, speech learning difficulties (dyslexia) Potential risks:- Auditory processing disorders, delayed language development, motor co-ordination problems, scoliosis Poor school academic performance, psychological and personality problems Early ovarian failure, despite normal fertility Anxiety, shyness and low self-esteem Benificial aids: Stable and happy home environment Leaving school   Physical tests: blood test confirms XXX, EEG abnormalities      
  • It is unfortunate that the early researchers tried to popularise their work, and presumably themselves, with this title ( Patricia A Jacobs et al in Edinburgh, 1959 and several articles in the Lancet: 2 January 1960 and 17 September)   Bernard Lennox, Principal advisor on medical terms to the Oxford English Dictionary chose to publish this erronious and misleading word to describe XXX females.   Triple X Syndrome occurs in 1 in 1000 girls. It is NOT inherited. The majority are never diagnosed. Some have XX cells and XXX cells. This is called a mosaic. Observable physical anomalies: rare except for 'taller than average and sisters'. So few XXX females are identified that effects are not easily identified and samples may not be significant: characteristics may include:- No effects or extremely mild Stature - tall (accelerated growth to puberty), small head, epicanthic (eyelid) folds, speech learning difficulties (dyslexia) Potential risks:- Auditory processing disorders, delayed language development, motor co-ordination problems, scoliosis Poor school academic performance, psychological and personality problems Early ovarian failure, despite normal fertility Anxiety, shyness and low self-esteem Benificial aids: Stable and happy home environment Leaving school   Physical tests: blood test confirms XXX, EEG abnormalities      
    Oct 23, 2016 1481
  • 20 Oct 2016
    I will perhaps write at length about the sorry affair of this week's meeting of interested and totally bored and dis-interested professionals in Caerdydd, our 'Welsh' supposed Capital city, once I have time to talk to Trans survivors of this solely box-ticking exercise.   Suffice it to say that GIC professional simply 'lost the plot', other Medical professionals (who all appeared to be bigotted General Practitioners) lost no time in sneering at the assembled domestic livestock herded into the 'Cattle Auction' (a handful of sadly hopeful Trans-women and one -man).   Our leaders presumably had wind of the antagonistic attitude to our community. I was asked to attend in order to provide a Trans Medical presence and balanced view-point.   My Curriculum Vitae includes: Professor of Surgery Chair, Speciality Advisory Committee Associate Dean of Postgraduate Medicine Chair, Regional Speciality Training Committee Regional Training Director Royal College Regional Advisor, Council member, Examiner, etc.   I suspect that I recently missed a phonecall from one of our leading representatives on Govt comittees to attend. I had, however, already resisted invitations; as I thought that the meeting would be a total waste of time. I did not realise that the GPs were of my generation. Psychiatry was 2 weeks of mornings in training; and, if you could be bothered to read the text-books - well! All such weighty tomes were written by expatriate Austro-Hungarrians fleeing from the Nazis. Each and every one stated emphatically that what we currently call Gender Dysphoria was "A severe Psychotic Mental Illness, always associated with Paedophilia, requiring immediate 'sectioning' under the auspices of the Mental Health Act for the statuary 28 days: thereafter transfer to a secure Mental Asylum for appropriate treatment over a minimum period of 2 years (twice weekly Electro-Convulsive Therapy covered by intra-muscular Sodium Pentothal. Ms April Ashley OBE received this 'treatment' in its entitity'.   The 'Death-camp' Psychiatrists with their mis-guided psycho-analsis based 'philosophy' are thankfully long gone. However, this meaningless exercise has demonstrated that their non-Psychiatrist off-spring are institutionally antagonistic and would benefit from re-training. The GPs and their bigotted acolytes seemingly enjoyed Trans-baiting' and added insult to injury by repeatedly referring to "YOU TRANS pause, long pause PEOPLE!   I am a gentle and (hopefully) charming lady, not given to any form of violence. The reason I declined to attend is simply that I did not want to descend to their level and that of their North Carolina Governor "chum".    R.I.P. the proposed Welsh GIC: R.I.P Charing Cross GIC
  • I will perhaps write at length about the sorry affair of this week's meeting of interested and totally bored and dis-interested professionals in Caerdydd, our 'Welsh' supposed Capital city, once I have time to talk to Trans survivors of this solely box-ticking exercise.   Suffice it to say that GIC professional simply 'lost the plot', other Medical professionals (who all appeared to be bigotted General Practitioners) lost no time in sneering at the assembled domestic livestock herded into the 'Cattle Auction' (a handful of sadly hopeful Trans-women and one -man).   Our leaders presumably had wind of the antagonistic attitude to our community. I was asked to attend in order to provide a Trans Medical presence and balanced view-point.   My Curriculum Vitae includes: Professor of Surgery Chair, Speciality Advisory Committee Associate Dean of Postgraduate Medicine Chair, Regional Speciality Training Committee Regional Training Director Royal College Regional Advisor, Council member, Examiner, etc.   I suspect that I recently missed a phonecall from one of our leading representatives on Govt comittees to attend. I had, however, already resisted invitations; as I thought that the meeting would be a total waste of time. I did not realise that the GPs were of my generation. Psychiatry was 2 weeks of mornings in training; and, if you could be bothered to read the text-books - well! All such weighty tomes were written by expatriate Austro-Hungarrians fleeing from the Nazis. Each and every one stated emphatically that what we currently call Gender Dysphoria was "A severe Psychotic Mental Illness, always associated with Paedophilia, requiring immediate 'sectioning' under the auspices of the Mental Health Act for the statuary 28 days: thereafter transfer to a secure Mental Asylum for appropriate treatment over a minimum period of 2 years (twice weekly Electro-Convulsive Therapy covered by intra-muscular Sodium Pentothal. Ms April Ashley OBE received this 'treatment' in its entitity'.   The 'Death-camp' Psychiatrists with their mis-guided psycho-analsis based 'philosophy' are thankfully long gone. However, this meaningless exercise has demonstrated that their non-Psychiatrist off-spring are institutionally antagonistic and would benefit from re-training. The GPs and their bigotted acolytes seemingly enjoyed Trans-baiting' and added insult to injury by repeatedly referring to "YOU TRANS pause, long pause PEOPLE!   I am a gentle and (hopefully) charming lady, not given to any form of violence. The reason I declined to attend is simply that I did not want to descend to their level and that of their North Carolina Governor "chum".    R.I.P. the proposed Welsh GIC: R.I.P Charing Cross GIC
    Oct 20, 2016 1169
  • 20 Oct 2016
    Chatting to several Trustees of 'Sparkle' 2017 in Manchester's Gay Village, prior to the initial meeting for the event, I mentioned that I had just seen and appreciated an appropriately dressed, older, smart and elegant business-woman on her way to Piccadilly Station. At that moment, in the rush hour crowd, an equally smart business-man, walking next to me, turned to his female colleague and said "Look, a drag queen, mind you we are on the edge otf their Gay Village". The young woman said "Welcome to the 20th Century, she is what you should now call a Trans-woman with appropriate, excellent make up, expensive wig, etc. I think she's lovely, and I prefer to call her a woman". He looked at me, somewhat 'confused', and I smiled as one does to a small child.  
  • Chatting to several Trustees of 'Sparkle' 2017 in Manchester's Gay Village, prior to the initial meeting for the event, I mentioned that I had just seen and appreciated an appropriately dressed, older, smart and elegant business-woman on her way to Piccadilly Station. At that moment, in the rush hour crowd, an equally smart business-man, walking next to me, turned to his female colleague and said "Look, a drag queen, mind you we are on the edge otf their Gay Village". The young woman said "Welcome to the 20th Century, she is what you should now call a Trans-woman with appropriate, excellent make up, expensive wig, etc. I think she's lovely, and I prefer to call her a woman". He looked at me, somewhat 'confused', and I smiled as one does to a small child.  
    Oct 20, 2016 1458
  • 15 Oct 2016
    The waiting-times for Gender Identity Clinic referrals in England and Wales continue to soar: first appointments in Exeter and Nottingham are well over a year (up from 3 months just 2 years ago): Leeds, Sheffield and London more like 3 years: the legal team in the West Midlands have advised the Clinic not to release figures; and, if you are not fortunate enough to be a Northumberland Area resident, 12 and a 1/2 years in Newcastle (so much for 'Patient Choice').   It is no surprise that Trans people and their parents or guardians are tempted to 'self-medicate' and to obtain supplies claimed to be 'sex-hormones, on the Internet.   Those who appreciate the dangers of this 'interim' therapy may well go for telephone consultations with a qualified Medical Practitioner; and think this course is the safer choice.   Trans people are vulnerable, frequently confused and exposed, leading to inevitable potential financial exploitation. A classic example of this was the business career of the charming and late Mrs Booth ( Ms Lloyd), who set up exorbitantly expensive shops (first in Prestwich, Manchester) targeting the Trans community; and, later, the now collapsed Llangollen Hotels targetting the LGBT community. I visited her Prestwich shop in 1988, and fell in love with a dress at £50.00: not only could I never afford it, but I found exactly the same dress with an identical label in a Bolton shop the next week.....price? £10.00 !!!   My personal opinion is that a doctor prescribing hormones to 12 years olds, and the parent or guardian, are exposed and open to legal action by the individual, once they reach the age of informed consent. It is likely that any doctor willing to treat Trans individuals without prior communication with their General Practitioner and sight of their medical history and medication is placing themselves at risk of General Medical Council scrutiny at the least. This is compounded by (personal reports from Trans-women frends) one well-known doctor in the UK is failing in their duty to obtain base-line blood tests (to include sex-hormones anf Liver Function Tests), prior to initiating therapy. The same doctor appears not to undertake the necessary repeat tests after eight weeks of treatment and repeat tests six monthly to dose-titrate the therapy.   Complaints have apparently been received by the GMC: who have just issued interim guide-lines to medical practitioners for 'Telephone Consultations'; and,commenced a consultation document in order to provide final guide-lines in the essential interests of 'Patient Safety'.   In the meantime, my sisters: "Beware of Strangers bearing Gifts" !   
  • The waiting-times for Gender Identity Clinic referrals in England and Wales continue to soar: first appointments in Exeter and Nottingham are well over a year (up from 3 months just 2 years ago): Leeds, Sheffield and London more like 3 years: the legal team in the West Midlands have advised the Clinic not to release figures; and, if you are not fortunate enough to be a Northumberland Area resident, 12 and a 1/2 years in Newcastle (so much for 'Patient Choice').   It is no surprise that Trans people and their parents or guardians are tempted to 'self-medicate' and to obtain supplies claimed to be 'sex-hormones, on the Internet.   Those who appreciate the dangers of this 'interim' therapy may well go for telephone consultations with a qualified Medical Practitioner; and think this course is the safer choice.   Trans people are vulnerable, frequently confused and exposed, leading to inevitable potential financial exploitation. A classic example of this was the business career of the charming and late Mrs Booth ( Ms Lloyd), who set up exorbitantly expensive shops (first in Prestwich, Manchester) targeting the Trans community; and, later, the now collapsed Llangollen Hotels targetting the LGBT community. I visited her Prestwich shop in 1988, and fell in love with a dress at £50.00: not only could I never afford it, but I found exactly the same dress with an identical label in a Bolton shop the next week.....price? £10.00 !!!   My personal opinion is that a doctor prescribing hormones to 12 years olds, and the parent or guardian, are exposed and open to legal action by the individual, once they reach the age of informed consent. It is likely that any doctor willing to treat Trans individuals without prior communication with their General Practitioner and sight of their medical history and medication is placing themselves at risk of General Medical Council scrutiny at the least. This is compounded by (personal reports from Trans-women frends) one well-known doctor in the UK is failing in their duty to obtain base-line blood tests (to include sex-hormones anf Liver Function Tests), prior to initiating therapy. The same doctor appears not to undertake the necessary repeat tests after eight weeks of treatment and repeat tests six monthly to dose-titrate the therapy.   Complaints have apparently been received by the GMC: who have just issued interim guide-lines to medical practitioners for 'Telephone Consultations'; and,commenced a consultation document in order to provide final guide-lines in the essential interests of 'Patient Safety'.   In the meantime, my sisters: "Beware of Strangers bearing Gifts" !   
    Oct 15, 2016 1157
  • 11 Oct 2016
    jotting a few thoughts ,comments on recent happenings -Personally Transition wise ..waiting for the surgeons assesment GRS wise.Health wise I am okay . -Occupation work wise ..I transitioned from being a corporate electronic engineer to now a happy  mixture of Gardener,House keeper,Dog sitter ,and Artist sculptor in Metalwork.Just finished of a large water feature commission, the client was very happy, and so am I with it.They had lovely Dogs who made a great fuss of me when I visited. -The media stuff Brexit, Trump et al, and welcome reminder in the shape of Jan Morris age 90 talking to Michael Palin on UK Telly .So is  Democracy just  about having your right to be heard and represented by  elections and referenda  pronouncing the Winners and Losers defining those as  superior and Right and those cast as wrong? I find it is difficult to dismiss the feeling that the recent increases  reports of crimes of  Xenophobic ,Homophobic and prejudice are linked to the political success of a mixed voice of dissention considering itself to be legitimized.The flip side is responsibilty for your actions,and understanding how you affect others. I was pleased to see the short programme about Jan Morris , who I remember seeing for the first time  in the early 70s [when I was about 10]confronting a very sceptical television Panel  sitting in Judgement almost on Trial,including the late Robin Day about her "Sex Change".This was a revelation to me at the time, and I was just so struck , Jan is the kind of person I relate to and I felt a linkage , not to any of the others on the programme representing the norm and the majority .They Actually showed the same  archival footage as part the Michael Palin programme.well Worth seeing.     So toward the end of the programme Michael Palin  very informally inquired , "..so your 90 whats the secret , what do you want to say."  Jan showed the gravestone which declared her life long Partner as friends, and articulated the idea that kindness was a better guide than love.
    988 Posted by Donna V
  • By Donna V
    jotting a few thoughts ,comments on recent happenings -Personally Transition wise ..waiting for the surgeons assesment GRS wise.Health wise I am okay . -Occupation work wise ..I transitioned from being a corporate electronic engineer to now a happy  mixture of Gardener,House keeper,Dog sitter ,and Artist sculptor in Metalwork.Just finished of a large water feature commission, the client was very happy, and so am I with it.They had lovely Dogs who made a great fuss of me when I visited. -The media stuff Brexit, Trump et al, and welcome reminder in the shape of Jan Morris age 90 talking to Michael Palin on UK Telly .So is  Democracy just  about having your right to be heard and represented by  elections and referenda  pronouncing the Winners and Losers defining those as  superior and Right and those cast as wrong? I find it is difficult to dismiss the feeling that the recent increases  reports of crimes of  Xenophobic ,Homophobic and prejudice are linked to the political success of a mixed voice of dissention considering itself to be legitimized.The flip side is responsibilty for your actions,and understanding how you affect others. I was pleased to see the short programme about Jan Morris , who I remember seeing for the first time  in the early 70s [when I was about 10]confronting a very sceptical television Panel  sitting in Judgement almost on Trial,including the late Robin Day about her "Sex Change".This was a revelation to me at the time, and I was just so struck , Jan is the kind of person I relate to and I felt a linkage , not to any of the others on the programme representing the norm and the majority .They Actually showed the same  archival footage as part the Michael Palin programme.well Worth seeing.     So toward the end of the programme Michael Palin  very informally inquired , "..so your 90 whats the secret , what do you want to say."  Jan showed the gravestone which declared her life long Partner as friends, and articulated the idea that kindness was a better guide than love.
    Oct 11, 2016 988
  • 05 Oct 2016
    Where I ever concocted the naive and simplistic idea that those Trans people who end up attracted to the opposite and their birth sex must be Bisexual, I have no idea. I married again, after the death of my first wife; and, the relationship was as good as it gets until my obligation to Transition clicked in.   One of the other two girls on our South Coast break, a fortnight ago, became sufficiently unwell to be considered for hospital admission from Casualty. We arrived with her 'things' and plans regarding disposal of her car her car.   In Casualty, we were allowed in behind the curtains to sit and to talk with her. Swiftly shood out by the nurse, prior to the return of the doctor with her blood results; we stood in the corridor as a god-like adonis passed by. Open-mouthed we both simply swooned. The nurses called us back in: she was to be discharged, with a prescription, as the blood tests were satisfactory, she informed us.   Her next remark concerned her 'falling in love with the doctor': you should have seen him, she stated! We informed her that we both had done so, and we were also in love. Her reply: "I saw him first, so he's mine!'   After nearly two years on hormones, I have started to notice attractive men: I would have put money on that "Never, ever happening" to me.
  • Where I ever concocted the naive and simplistic idea that those Trans people who end up attracted to the opposite and their birth sex must be Bisexual, I have no idea. I married again, after the death of my first wife; and, the relationship was as good as it gets until my obligation to Transition clicked in.   One of the other two girls on our South Coast break, a fortnight ago, became sufficiently unwell to be considered for hospital admission from Casualty. We arrived with her 'things' and plans regarding disposal of her car her car.   In Casualty, we were allowed in behind the curtains to sit and to talk with her. Swiftly shood out by the nurse, prior to the return of the doctor with her blood results; we stood in the corridor as a god-like adonis passed by. Open-mouthed we both simply swooned. The nurses called us back in: she was to be discharged, with a prescription, as the blood tests were satisfactory, she informed us.   Her next remark concerned her 'falling in love with the doctor': you should have seen him, she stated! We informed her that we both had done so, and we were also in love. Her reply: "I saw him first, so he's mine!'   After nearly two years on hormones, I have started to notice attractive men: I would have put money on that "Never, ever happening" to me.
    Oct 05, 2016 3256
  • 17 Sep 2016
    How is everybody doing? I just felt the need to rant a bit (again lol). I think I mentioned how my dad and I got dumbells so I could start lifting and I was wondering since he bought them if maybe he was accepting me (not really what this is about). I've been looking at workouts online and of course wishing I could look like these huge guys (knowing I could never get THAT big). Problem is, I read that it's a myth that if a girl lifts weights they'll get bulky. So, that means no matter how much I lift, I can't get bulky at all because I'm a girl on the outside? Just more disappointment if it's true, but then again, I guess it just means I have to do more than just lift. (Like T-shots or something). 
    1036 Posted by Kris McKinley
  • How is everybody doing? I just felt the need to rant a bit (again lol). I think I mentioned how my dad and I got dumbells so I could start lifting and I was wondering since he bought them if maybe he was accepting me (not really what this is about). I've been looking at workouts online and of course wishing I could look like these huge guys (knowing I could never get THAT big). Problem is, I read that it's a myth that if a girl lifts weights they'll get bulky. So, that means no matter how much I lift, I can't get bulky at all because I'm a girl on the outside? Just more disappointment if it's true, but then again, I guess it just means I have to do more than just lift. (Like T-shots or something). 
    Sep 17, 2016 1036
  • 15 Sep 2016
    Questions, therefore not to be quoted as a scientific study, submitted to a random selection of Transgender female adults. If you had serious wealth and momey was simply no object, would you go for which of the following surgical proceedures.......? Surprisingly, the survey did not include:-  - Elevation (subtle) of the eyebrows and reconstruction of the orbito-frontal area  - Capillary Micro-transplant Surgery  - Feminising rhinoplasty (may be nose remodelling)  - chinplasty  - Tracheal shave     Survey results: Fat reduction                54% Wrinkle eradication       26% Breast Enhancement *  19% Nose remodelling      *  18% Lip enhancement           7% Buttock enhancement    5% Vaginal modelling          4% Simply no idea              2%   * may consider
  • Questions, therefore not to be quoted as a scientific study, submitted to a random selection of Transgender female adults. If you had serious wealth and momey was simply no object, would you go for which of the following surgical proceedures.......? Surprisingly, the survey did not include:-  - Elevation (subtle) of the eyebrows and reconstruction of the orbito-frontal area  - Capillary Micro-transplant Surgery  - Feminising rhinoplasty (may be nose remodelling)  - chinplasty  - Tracheal shave     Survey results: Fat reduction                54% Wrinkle eradication       26% Breast Enhancement *  19% Nose remodelling      *  18% Lip enhancement           7% Buttock enhancement    5% Vaginal modelling          4% Simply no idea              2%   * may consider
    Sep 15, 2016 4559