This post can have two titles, I can't decide. Here they are:

"How can they know? They're too young to know. It's just a phase."

Or

"It's too confusing to tell little ones about TG people/students"

More on this in a moment, but first I have to tell you my personal experience. It will relate to the titles above, so please bear with me.

I was 6 or 7 years old, possibly 8 when I thought I was born a boy and my parents cut off my boy part and made me a girl (basically, I thought I was intersex before I even knew what it was). I honestly don't know how I came up with this notion, but I can take a good guess. Read on.

When I was in kindergarten, all of the girls in the class were making cheerleader pom poms out of construction paper--I can still remember the color, green and yellow--except ME. From what I remember, it was a long term activity that included learning a cheer. Instead of making pom poms, I would be doing extra school work with Brandon, a boy in the class. I became hyper aware of my gender and had a horrible, disturbed, insecure feeling. "I'm a girl, can't they see I'm a girl? They don't think I'm a boy, do they? What's wrong with me? Why are they doing this to me? I'm a girl! Oh no, everyone must be looking at me. Everyone must think I'm different, and not in a good way." Of course on the outside, I never seemed self-conscious, but on the inside, I was upset and confused and insecure.

Years later as an adult looking back, they were giving me and Brandon extra work because I--and I assume he--was a year older than the others: 6 years old. Everyone in kindergarten is usually 5, unless your parents wish to start you a year later because of an autumn birthday, which is what my parents decided to do. IF THE TEACHER HAD SIMPLY SAID, "I know you're a girl and I know you would want to make pom poms with the other girls, but I also see you're doing so well in school and want to challenge you," I wouldn't have felt so confused and traumatized.

I have a degree in child development and in today's times, gender neutrality and gender inclusion are generally stressed. In today's preschool or kindergarten classroom, everyone in the class would make pom poms (because yes, there are men cheerleaders, who mostly do the heavy lifting), OR at least the activity could be optional and open to whoever wants to make them, boy or girl. I'm not currently teaching, but a boy once said, "Girls don't play with trucks/blocks/etc," and I told him, "Yes they can, girls can do anything boys can do, and boys can do anything girls can do." This reinforces that gender roles aren't so black and white. There are female mathematicians and astronauts and there are male ballet dancers and fashion designers. Guess what? The boy was quiet and understood, never making that comment again, playing harmoniously next to girls. End of story. Children can understand gender very well, because unlike personalities which are still developing, gender identity and beliefs about gender develop first--as I have experienced firsthand.

Of course this traumatic incident was a one time thing, everything else, all other experiences confirmed my belief that I was a girl. The clothes, the friends, being the daughter/sister of the family, the color pink (pink bike, toys, wall color), the girl toys, even though I never played with baby dolls and never played mommie, just Barbies and My Little Ponies. And people referred to me as she and her. All of the above is not the case for a transgender child...the identity inside doesn't match the body outside, nor does it match how everyone is treating you. So I can imagine that the confusion would be great, life long, with a lot of repression and denial going on. Unless you're young and live in today's time with understanding parents.

Yet my imagination ran wild and at an early age, most likely because of this incident, not to mention I have a stain-type birthmark down below where I thought it was cut off, I actually thought I was born a boy but made into a girl when I was a baby, all very secretive and never discussed. Of course the stain birthmark is a bit too high and way too small, I have no scars, this would have been the 70s, not to mention all my life, all the gynecologist appointments, biopsies (cervical and uterine), annual exams, I can say with 100% (or 99%?!) accuracy that I was born a girl (who knows about what's inside...ovotestes? Probably not...maybe, no it can't be...I don't think so...NO...but at one point I wished I was like the woman on Oprah who discovered she had internal testes, then I wouldn't have to take birth control hormones for decades, but that's another story--I might be the only genetic female to wish I had internal testes for birth control reasons!). How did I even think of these adult concepts? Was it pure imagination? Memories of a past life still lingering? Overheard something like this could happen, mind you, this was 1980? I don't know. You decide.

***But back to the issues at hand. When I hear a parent in the media who says it's too confusing for my child to know what transgender students are, I would say to them, NO, IT'S NOT. If you were to explain to children that Billy looks like a boy but is a girl in his heart and mind, and therefore likes girl things and will start dressing like a girl, children will understand more easily than adults. It's like with racism, children aren't born racist, they learn it, just like children learn to include everyone no matter their appearance. And it also depends on how adults react. If teachers and parents act as though this is no big deal and is normal, kids will follow suit.

And for parents who think their child is going through a phase, remember, I knew 100% that I was indeed a girl at age 6...which means a transgender child can be 100% sure of their gender as well. Treat your child with love and respect, and see what happens. Don't deny or repress their interests/way of dressing/likes and dislikes. I don't want to say there's a slight chance it's a phase, because then parents will cling onto that. But just let them be themselves, and accept them wholly and completely whether it's a phase or (most likely) not.***
This post was edited by Former Member at April 12, 2016 3:42 PM BST

Further reading and investigating:

Parents find it too confusing and the media making transgender a "controversy":

http://huffpost.com/us/entry/the-coming-storm-controversial-transgender-stories_b_4023664.html

The "controversial" article from the link above:

http://abc7.com/archive/9268350/

California is actually very liberal, not like North Carolina:

http://huffpost.com/us/entry/california-transgender-students-bill-_n_3745337.html

Cristine's very informative post:

http://gendersociety.com/forums/topic/7805/heteronormativity

Interview with 3 intersex folks, not to be confused with or lumped in with transgender people:

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/news/a32957/sex-talk-realness-being-intersex/

An intersex woman from Oprah...I couldn't find the woman I saw who was married and wanted to have kids, but then they discovered internal testes, and her husband still supported her and wanted to be with her...this looks is a different woman:

https://www.haverford.edu/college-communications/news/growing-intersex-going-oprah

What is intersex? A complete definition:

http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex

An intersex documentary that I was no doubt fascinated by, saw it 4 years ago on HBO or something, had a fun twist I never saw coming, something that lets people know it's more common than you'd ever think. Orchids: My Intersex Adventure (2010):

http://imdb.com/title/tt1757830/

https://youtube.com/watch?v=t3QOTMCVREE

And finally, if you watch this Dr Phil episode and are not screaming at the screen, screaming at the parents, then you must be asleep or dead. Mama's Little Boy or Daddy's Little Girl: Identity Confusion or Brainwashing?

http://www.drphil.com/shows/show/2484

Here's a Huffington Post article about it:

http://huffpost.com/us/entry/is-their-child-identifying-as-a-boy-or-girl_us_565c0070e4b072e9d1c2454f
This post was edited by Former Member at March 29, 2016 11:24 PM BST

http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

Gender Identity
One's internal, deeply held sense of one's gender. For transgender people, their own internal gender identity does not match the sex they were assigned at birth. Most people have a gender identity of man or woman (or boy or girl). For some people, their gender identity does not fit neatly into one of those two choices. Unlike gender expression (see below) gender identity is not visible to others.

Gender Expression
External manifestations of gender, expressed through one's name, pronouns, clothing, haircut, behavior, voice, or body characteristics. Society identifies these cues as masculine and feminine, although what is considered masculine and feminine changes over time and varies by culture. Typically, transgender people seek to make their gender expression align with their gender identity, rather than the sex they were assigned at birth.

Gender Non-Conforming
A term used to describe some people whose gender expression is different from conventional expectations of masculinity and femininity. Please note that not all gender non-conforming people identify as transgender; nor are all transgender people gender non-conforming. Many people have gender expressions that are not entirely conventional -- that fact alone does not make them transgender. Many transgender men and women have gender expressions that are conventionally masculine or feminine. Simply being transgender does not make someone gender non-conforming. The term is not a synonym for transgender or transsexual and should only be used if someone self-identifies as gender non-conforming.

Transgender (adj.)
An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms - including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the individual. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to change their bodies. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon medical procedures.

Transsexual (adj.)
An older term that originated in the medical and psychological communities. Still preferred by some people who have permanently changed - or seek to change - their bodies through medical interventions (including but not limited to hormones and/or surgeries). Unlike transgender, transsexual is not an umbrella term. Many transgender people do not identify as transsexual and prefer the word transgender. It is best to ask which term an individual prefers. If preferred, use as an adjective: transsexual woman or transsexual man.

Firstly Lisa Thank you for the above. If anyone here calls this preaching then think again "It is teaching" .

Children? The most fascinating of all age groups , non judgemental and innocent. That innocence is what I love about children.

 

As a child I knew my gender even though it did not match my body , to say my childhood was difficult would be an understatement. I could not hide it and I was punished over and over for not conforming to what they thought I should be. Not just the broken bones but the scars , mental scars that however hard I try to forget will never leave me.

 

Children are open minded and they also say what they see and think with innocence unlike adults. Some adults say what they think they see and think it is wrong because in their eyes it is not conforming to society.

Going back a few years after I stopped driving I had no choice but to use the bus to go on a 17 mile journey. There was only one bus where I was living at the time and it was the school bus. I used that bus daily and shared it with about 50 children. This was in my first years of transition. Never once was I shown any disrespect from those children. They knew my name and to hear those voices saying hello Julia or Hi Julia helped me more than they will ever know , that bus journey was a joy to take daily. It was fun and friendly.

 

My so called phase I had as a child that so many tried to beat out of me must still be going on , it must be the longest bloody phase in history.

When I first met one of my friends 10 year old daughter she stood with her mother looking a bit bored and left out of the conversation. I asked her do you know what gender is? She replied yes. So I asked her what gender am I ? . She replied you are female silly. I then asked her have you noticed anything different about me? She replied you are tall , she went on to say I want to be tall like you. Just for fun I said how old do you think I am? She then said mum how old are you? Her mother replied 39 , she then said I reckon you are 27 then , as I was 56 at the time her mother was not to pleased but laughed it off.

 

It takes a lot to bring tears to my eyes as I think I am all cried out but when I first read what is in the following link I shed some www.thestar.co.uk/what-s-on/out-and-about//cross-dress-pupil-suicide-1-243320 because I was 10 years old once. Between the age of 9 to 12 were most likely the hardest years of my life. There were certain points in that time I had no wish or reason to live. I expressed myself so much in that time as the gender I knew I was and sh*t did I take some beatings for it.

 

My so called phase will end when I draw my last breath.

 

Again Thank you Lisa , take care.

 

Julia xx

Lisa..you are a breath of fresh air in here and I am so glad you have come to us to share your thoughts, feelings, and insights!  (smile)  I can relate to your personal journey for somewhere around the age of three, I recall my mother dressing me in girls clothing to go out and play and even have a Halloween pic somewhere of me around age of 3 or 4 in a dress, bonnet, and a touch of makeup.  I was always small for my age untio I reached about 15 but always felt I was a girl.  One day, while I was dressed in girl clothing, my father came home from work early.  He saw me in the playground and yelled at me to come inside.  When I grew up, it was OK to beat the girl out of the boy and did I ever get spanked!  After a few more instances of this, my mother stopped allowing me to dress and go out and I began a path of sneaking into femme clothing as often as I could.  I had two sisters who were about the same size so finding things to wear was easy.  This continued thru my teen years and one day, while vacationing at the ocean, I snuck a bikini off a clothesline and put it on and went down to another section of the beach to be alone as me for the day.  My hair was fairly long then, my voice had not changed, nor had I any body hair.  I was 15, almost 16 then.  I looked very, very pretty.  I swam and sunned myself all day and even had a few boys come by to flirt with me!  *gasp*!!!!!  I returned home and my mother saw me and grabbed her camera and took a shot...it was great "fun" for them, for me it was perfection!  

I was gifted athletically and eventually migrated into a professional career, but continued to dress when we returned from road trips.  I'd sneak into NYC dressing in the car while applying my makeup.  I fell into a fast crowd around Greenwich Village that included the likes of Andy Warhol and his friends.  I really looked pretty and still had not physically matured with facial or body hairs and had a long, lean smooth body comparable to the fashion models of the day.  I fit in quite well!  

Mind you, I felt I was a girl from my earliest recollections, but there was no internet then, nor was there any "role models" to blaze a path to follow.  I felt very alone until I ran in the NYC scene.  But I also felt that I was doomed to live life as a male forever and just tried to cope the best I could.  I met, fell in love, and married a terrific woman and never disclosed my gender issues with her.  I figured I would just give it all up and become the good husband and father.  And I did, to an extent!  My work/job took me on the road for a week at a time every other week and I would pack a second bag with wigs, clothing, and makeup and when my day was over, would change out to femme garb and go out.  It was enough to quell any further desires and I truly enjoyed my life with my wife and kids.  

The kids grew up, moved out of the house, and I could no longer be satisfied living my life the way I was living it.  I totally opened up to my wife over a period of a few months and the **** hit the fan.  Of course she was hurt feeling that our lives were built on a lie.  To some extent, they were, but in reality, nothing changed about me other than I had a feminine body by now and was a smooth as she was all over.  Our love for each other is deep though and thru many conversations, I was able to demonstrate over time that I was not going to do anything to embarrass her in front of the world, that I was still the same person she fell in love with, and that it was my intent to be with her forever.  In order to make things work, we agreed to a series of compromises that allowed me daily space to be myself and also spend quality time daily with her.  She does not want to see me as Traci and I am respectful of our agreement.  We live in a city of about 200,000 people and a metro area of over 1 million, so there is plenty of room to pursue my interests as Traci while ensuring our paths do not cross.  When femme, I am very passable and have walked right by her best friends and others who know me only as a male without them even noticing!  And this is even while making femme eye contact and a gentle smile!  LOL

As time goes on, I find myself more femme daily and even androgynous when not dressed and she has reached a point where it is not an issue anymore.  She is a saint.  Will I ever live full time?  I sure hope so and continue to migrate in that direction.  But I love her too much to push her to the point where she walks away or tosses me out.

How this pertains to your thread???  Well, I knew early on about my gender issues.  My parents knew as well...but the times were different then as there truly was no chance of ever being allowed to transition from m2F then.  To frame it, I was 19 at Woodstock!  (grin)  I think my parents thought it was a "phase" that I'd outgrow, and to an extent, pursuing a sport for a living fulfilled that.  But I truly believe that if one is of the T community, that it is something you never outgrow or leaves you.  It actually grew so much stronger with each year and is never going to go away.  Today, I have a femme body so there is no turning back...the most difficult part of all of this though was learning to love yourself and accept yourself just the way you are!  Growing up when I did, there was zero chance of social disclosure as this would have shamed the family among other things.  So I felt like a freak for the longest time...

I'm glad things are getting easier for the young people today, but it has not come without the huge efforts of many who proceeded me and sacrificed much to attain a status of at least being recognized.  Back then, they would place you in a mental institution no questions asked.  In fact, if caught wearing three or more articles of opposite your born gender, you could be arrested on a morals charge and locked up!  So I risked lots every time I dressed but did so because of what I was and am...

I'm am totally OK with me as me and am in a "happy place" owing much to the effects of estrogen.  My life is filled with clarity, purpose, and a sense of compassion that resided in me but was masked by the ugly effects of T.  

Thank you again for your contriibutions...

Traci xoxo

Time is not on my side today so this is going to be short. Traci has touched on something I told Lisa after her nasty welcome here. I told Lisa to stay here , you are a breath of fresh air to this website.

 

Lisa is a very supporting woman and the fact that she is a genetic female has nothing to do with her membership here. She is not here to sell anything or herself. She is not here for self gain , she is here because she cares. Look above and ask yourselves if you doubt what I am typing. You will find very few members here who go to the trouble to make posts like she does.

 

I have not had the time as yet to look at the links Lisa has posted but I will later and come back to this. The link I posted about the 10 year old boy who hung himself I placed in a topic Cristine and myself started in my last membership here "A roll of tragic events" . That was sparked by the suicide of Leelah Alcorn. The 10 year old boy in that link in my opinion was not a boy. He at the time never had the chance to see a professional to get a diagnosis. To feel the need to end his life by hanging he most likely was a she and was denied a chance to become herself.

Anyone who comes here to offer support should be supported and made welcome. I am so pleased Lisa stayed after her bad experience here and am proud to call her a friend.

 

I have to get going.

 

Take care , Julia xx

Hi Julia,
Your words touched me, you have a way of expressing yourself and telling your personal stories that is moving yet matter of fact, serious yet has touches of dry humor, which no doubt helped you to survive the longest, never ending "phase" of your life. Beautiful post, thank you for taking the time to write. And thank you so much for your support!

Hi Traci,
Why thank you (the breath of fresh air comment). Your personal story was so fascinating, it read like a movie, I could picture it in my head, being a teenager passing as a young woman, running with the beatniks in NYC...but then there's the terrible abuse that was insanely considered normal at the time and I'm sorry you had to go through that. Like I told you in my PM...magnificent post!

Both Julia and Traci, you were miraculously able to survive and finally become your true selves unlike so many who sadly take their own lives before they can reach their full potential. I'm so glad to have met you both, you and many others here are the true face of the movement, not some rich celebrity, but rather the ones whom it didn't even seem possible to make it, but now you're both happy and content now, later in life.

I'm still sad about children committing suicide and thought we lived in a better time where things like this would be nonexistent...seems like there's much more work to do.

I still have not had time to read or look at the links in this topic , I seriously am so tired and my eyes cannot take it.

We are all different and also all unique. We all had or have different experiences. I have no clue if it just Crissie and myself but that age of 12 was one of the worse years of my life , I doubt it is just us two. There is one year I cannot talk about on here and that was when I was aged 11 , I learnt how cruel and sick some people can be. The book I am currently writing about my life I have to be 100% honest in. Writing about that year was one of the hardest things I have had to do as an adult , of course the hardest part was living through it as child.

 

I never knew why I was different as a child , in my eyes I was normal but I was reminded daily and many times in a day I was not normal. I had no one to ask why so I bought a dictionary. I read that dictionary in the hope the answer was in there. I cannot remember how long it took but I know it was a long time before I reached the letter T . On reaching that letter I eventually came accross 2 words , Transvestite and Transexual. I knew I was not a transvestite from how it read. I then knew I was a Transexual and yes it was spelt with one S , I have no idea when or why someone added another S to the word.

 

I felt relieved but not for very long , I knew what I was finally but was still in the same place , very alone. I have not one single good memory of my mother , I have searched but there is not one. My father was killed in an accident at work when I was 10 years old , I have so many good memories of him. He must have known I was different because everyone else had noticed and punished me for it. My father took me everywhere with him when he was not working , it was like he was protecting me. He never once hit me or raised his hand to me. I will never know if he would have accepted me as a female but I do know he was the only one who showed me what love was as a child. I can only hold on to the thought that he may have accepted me , if I let that thought go It will be like letting the love go , I cannot do that.

 

I have read Crissie's comment about children accepting their fathers dressing in front of them at a young age being wrong and I totally agree. I will find the time to read the links in this topic and return to it.

 

I cannot read back on what I have just typed so I apologise in advance for any mistakes I may have made.

 

I need food and a shower and live in hope I will get more than 4 hours sleep tonight.

 

For now you all take care , Julia xx

Julia! Don't feel like you have to read all my links, I just put them there in case one or two pop out to whom ever reads them. Although I must admit, they're all interesting. Oh, I will BUY your book!

Hi Cristine,
I read the link about your condition and the whole post was so interesting despite not fully understanding the medical jargon 100%. I hate that you suffered so much bullying, people are so ignorant and close minded. If you lived in hunter gather times you would have been fully accepted, which shows its today's society that is so rigid and judgmental. But then there would be no modern medicine and no Internet, and hunting and gathering seems hard not to mention boring!

The fact that I have a deeper voice than the typical female, higher forehead, sharper jawline, am left handed, have big feet for my height with a longer second toe, have oily skin and acne (I was bullied at the 8th grade bus stop, the kids joked and called me Pizza Face and Anchovy Face they thought they were so clever), a high sex drive since age 11 (but more with myself, as I was very shy and reserved), chose a risky job by joining the military (plus I dreamed of being a race car driver), extremely small breasts (you know Kelly Ripa? Mine were her size, maybe even smaller...but at age 25 I had a breast job), and I have no desire to have children...all of the above suggests more like I'm a high testosterone genetic woman.

I still have to figure out the index finger and ring finger length in regards to higher testosterone, but yes, longer second toe length studies have been done and show high testosterone levels...the jury is still out as far as female left handedness, but there does seem to be a correlation between left handedness and higher testosterone. "High T women" is a real thing and I'm not alone, the world is full of high T women...BUT there's always that thing in the back of my head, what if I have internal, unseen testes?! Then I've been taking birth control hormones all this time for nothing! There are so many variations of intersex as you are well aware of, and like I mentioned, there was a person on Oprah, all her life she thought she was a woman, looked like a woman 100%, had a vagina and uterus, had menstrual cycles, got married, tried having children but couldn't...only to find out she was intersex with male testes where her ovaries should be.

Oh well, the birth control hormones have helped with my oily skin and acne, regulating my periods plus I use natural over the counter progesterone cream (started at age 40 last year), and it has put some "oomph" back into sex, which was, ummm...how can I say..."drying up" from the long term hormone use...it's the pregnancy hormone and doesn't seem to do much for biological men according to the book What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Premenopause, the book which helped me discover I had a hormone imbalance due to long term birth control hormones.

In any case, I'm actually glad that I'm not quite the norm. Being normal is boring. I'm half white and half Chinese and one time an acquaintance of mine said, I thought you were just white, to which I thought, that is so boring, I don't want to be just white! Sorry to all you whiteys, no disrespect Just kidding...but in all seriousness, I hope people of all conditions and variations and supposed differences can find a place of acceptance (even though society may not accept you), contentment and happiness. Life is too short to be miserable. The most important thing is to accept yourself... I know it's easier said than done, but you must try and never give up. Don't let mainstream society win!


How to tell if a woman has high testosterone: http://www.speeli.com/articles/view/How-to-tell-if-a-woman-has-high-testosterone

Girls exposed to high testosterone destined to be tomboys...yes, I have 2 older brothers so I was definitely a tomboy and wanted to do everything they were doing, skateboarding, playing Battleship, climbing up anything:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/10102686/Girls-exposed-to-high-testosterone-levels-destined-to-be-tomboys.html

Even though the importance of motherhood wasn't stressed to me as a child, not to mention a rough childhood of divorced parents at age 9 and a domineering abusive mother (both environmental reasons for not wanting children), there's a study that shows women with higher testosterone have less maternal/reproductive ambition:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Miriam_Law_Smith/publication/7409255_Maternal_personality_and_reproductive_ambition_in_women_is_associated_with_salivary_testosterone_levels/links/0046351a64e2937b03000000.pdf?inViewer=0&pdfJsDownload=0&origin=publication_detail

A fun article, why is Emelia Clarke so appealing...she has testosterone and estrogen facial features: http://news.yahoo.com/science-sexy-why-emilia-clarke-reigns-supreme-154056857.html

Dating a high testosterone woman. "So, High T women typically have more mannish features: taller, bigger hands and feet, lacking curves, more prominent jawbone, deeper voices, etc. In fact a recent study showed that higher testosterone exposure in the womb leads to manlier faces in women. This isn’t to say these women are ugly or extremely manly. In many cases the more masculine features are there, but subtle. And, the woman is still objectively pretty."
http://thepopularman.com/high-testosterone-women-and-dating/

Lisa, tihnking of your original post, I can honestly say that children don't care about a person's gender, including that of their parents. They need to know that they are safe, cared for and loved, and that's all that really matters to them. I have children who saw me transitioning when they were teenagers and apart from one little hiccup, it all went fine. That hiccup was resolved very quickly once my daughter in question knew I was still the same inside. 

I also have younger children and they were very little at the time so they don't know anything else. I always worry a little about the problems it may cause for them but to date, there haven't been any. I attend school plays, they have their friends over for playing or sleepovers and there have been no problems. There is usually one of two questons, either A) why does your Dad look like a woman? Or B) Why do you have two Mums? My children explain it in their own way and I have never asked them to say anything on my behalf, and yes, they still refer to me as Dad as that is who I am to them and I would not make them change it even though it would make things simpler for us all. 

Are they confused or damaged in some way? No. Both are doing extremely well in school and have good friendship groups. They don't see gender as an issue in the same way that they don't see race or colour as an issue. I'm very proud of them. 

 

I'm very proud of them too.

Nothing is confusing to children as long as things are explained to them. For instance, why didn't my kindergarten teacher explain to me why I'm the only girl not making pom poms and learning a cheer? Instead, later, I came up with an elaborate idea on my own to explain why perhaps I wasn't involved with the girl activity. Maybe she knew something I didn't know. Did she know I was a boy at birth, was my illogical thinking. It was because she didn't think it mattered. She didn't think children had thoughts or feelings.

The same with my parents, as a small child in the single digits, I remember waking up in a strange place in the middle of the night. I cried and cried and was inconsolable. Everyone failed to mention that we were going to spend the night at my dad's friends house because they were running a marathon early the next morning, so they had carted me there at night when I was already sleeping. Why couldn't they tell me earlier in the day what their plans were? It's because parents and adults sometimes think that children don't need to know things, they're just children after all. But they're oh so wrong. Explain explain explain! Acknowledge their feelings. Ask questions. Tell them in simple language what's going on.

Adults think that children do not need any explanation and are not keen or adept anyway, so why explain...but they ARE, and they pick up on things, including emotions. If left to their own devices, they'll come up with incorrect conclusions.

My parents got divorced when I was 9, and that was damaging in some ways. In other ways it was for the best because my only memories of them together was of them fighting, arguing, yelling, my mom throwing dishes against the wall. Again, they didn't stop to think that us kids were listening and picking up on every little thing they were doing and saying. At some points during their divorce, I felt guilty because my dad asked me if I wanted to live with him and I said yes, but then I told my mom I wanted to live with her. I eventually lived with mom, but before that, I had a fear that us kids would be given up by our parents and we wouldn't live with either. Whew! That's a lot for a 9 year old. But in the end, I visited my dad every weekend or every other weekend, and he took us camping every summer. It was better that they ended up divorced in the end, yet they could have handled it a bit better.

In any case, my point is, Nikki, you represent the modern family of today, and your children were never damaged by you becoming...well...you! In fact, their minds were broadened and it carries through to every aspect of their lives, which is why you are proud of them. And if you stayed married, well that's commendable, beautiful and inspiring. If you didn't stay married, it's sad that it has to come to that, as far as transgender people trying to become their true self later in life.

So yes, divorce CAN be damaging, so that has to be handled with extreme care. The child should never feel like it's their fault or that they are unloved. And you should never leave your child's life, rather, get and stay involved in every aspect of their upbringing.

I think part of the problem for children of our generation is that we were just supposed to do as we were told, at home and in school and things were not explained to us. My parents also divorced when I was around 9 or 10 and I had no idea why. I knew that they were often arguing but I had no idea they were splitting up. To be honest, day to day it never affected me much as my Dad was often away working so I never really saw him a great deal. I was also (sadly) not close to my family because I was 'strange'. However, this 'strange' girl and her eldest sister were the only ones who kept in touch with their Dad. When I joined the military, he was very proud, being an ex soldier himself. The divorce, and my own feelings were never talked about so it did make things more puzzleing than they needed to be. A few conversations would have gone a long way, even if back then, not much would be done about it. 

 

However, I still view the experiences as positive as it made me approach my parenting in a totally different manner. Everything is explained to my children and their opinions are sought on most issues affecting them. Their choices are respected and they know (particularly my older children) that while I may not always agree with their choices, I will respect them. As a result, we have a fantastic bond. 

 

This is very a interesting topic although I still have not had time to take a look at the links. As a child my life was pure hell where my gender identity was concerned. My mother showed me no love at-all and at the age of 10 the one who did "My father" was killed in an accident at work.

 

After my father died my mother was left with 6 children including myself. The only thing my mother taught me was hate , not how to hate but what hate was and she showed that hate towards me , not my brothers or sister just me. I know she thought I was strange but a mother should want to know why.

 

I have a massive music collection and I can pick a song for virtually any topic or person. In the link at the end of this Kelly Clarkson breaks down @ 2 minutes 2 seconds. Kelly Clarkson wrote this song about her childhood and the break up of her parents. It is in actual fact about her father and the deteriorating pain he caused her arguing with her mother.

When a song touches me as many do I feel the need to find out why. I feel the need to find out who wrote it and why.

To me this shows that good can come from bad and lessons can be learnt at any age.

Watch listen and enjoy. This song was at first rejected by Kelly Clarkson's recording company , I am so pleased it was released in the end and it is easy to see why it won best video award 2006. At the point Kelly broke down as mentioned above it just shows us all that we never forget the pains in our childhoods however hard we try.

 

https://youtu.be/Ra-Om7UMSJc

 

Take care

 

Julia xx

Yes Nikki, that is so true. It would seem most of life is about learning what NOT to do from our past experiences. I'm glad you raised them/are raising them the way you have been, we must always improve from the last generation. You are a fantastic mother! I may not be one, but I can tell who's a great one from all the way around the world, you should win the best mom (mum) award. And it's really not fair because you will win the best "dad" award too

Now on to the next post. I love that song and didn't know it was a true story until last month, when I heard her in a radio interview. She was discussing her latest song, Piece by Piece, and how she broke down on American Idol. I added the link below. It's about how her dad deserted her at age 6, tried coming back in her life after she got rich by winning American Idol, and how she's comparing him to her wonderful loving husband who she is able to witness as a good father, what a father SHOULD be (they have a little one, plus she's pregnant while singing this), restoring her faith in men. Keith Urban is literally sobbing. He's totally like my husband, doesn't care, if something moves him, the tears will flow.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9FHYBQxURQo

Time doesn't truly heal all wounds, like they say it does. You may forget about the pain as there are more pressing things in life, but if you recall those painful memories, it can all come flooding back. If someone is completely sheltered and everything is handed to them and they never experienced pain or loss or suffering, then they don't know anything about life and I wouldn't trust them, they're not wise, not mature. And...you may not know true joy and happiness if you have never suffered.

Julia, against all odds, you have risen from a hellish childhood, and like a phoenix from the ashes, you have started a new life a long time ago and are doing everything you can to leave the world a bit better than when you entered it
This post was edited by Former Member at April 4, 2016 11:46 PM BST

Thank you for that Lisa. It is hard to watch and listen to your Kelly Clarkson link without feeling like shedding some tears , I have to hold them back but a few escape.

Yes I do intend to leave a mark on this world when I leave it , I know I already have but I want to leave a crater.

 

What family I do have pushed me very close to ending my life when I came out as me. I heard last year they were trying to contact me but that was crap because they know where I am. They used the radio to say after nearly 12 years they understand , bullsh*t. Very strange because a few months later my brother called me on the phone asking to borrow a 4 figure sum of money from me. I can never welcome them back into my life because it is all about them and what they want.

 

I told you I do not collect friends here in a jar of hearts. I need to trust someone to call them a friend.

The song in this link is about a man who treats females like his toys to play with when only he feels like it. Take away the part about him being a heart breaker in lover terms it reminds me of my family.

 

https://youtu.be/8v_4O44sfjM

 

Take care , love , Julia x

I love that song and can easily see how the words fit your family situation. I'm going to go now and have a good cry...sometimes you need to cry and let it out, then you feel better after!

Not to change the subject, but You Tube Disturb's version of Simon and Garfunkle's "Sound of Silence" if you are in the mood to have your senses numbed for a spell.  Written in a minor key with an accompanying symphony, this song is both dark and angry while remaining beautiful at the same time!  I sat in tears listening to it over and over...it is rare these days to have a song move me that much!

Enjoy...

Traci xoxo

 

Somehow we got off topic, but I love it! Sometimes you just have to go where life takes you.

Traci, I just listened to it. I loved the musical arrangement. Very haunting. Very intense. And talk about testosterone, he's got such a deep manly voice.

Since we're on the subject of dark haunting music, here's a girl version. My husband introduced me to this song, he's always finding the best music. This is Lykke Li, a Swedish singer. Very strange video with random things showing up, but she seems like a ghostly, lost person filled with despair. I might post this on the wall, too...let me think about it.

http://youtu.be/AIruwzhozTc

Wow!  The imagery is dark...lots of death and horrible lives depicted...maybe it's just a dream for her?

Have you ever listened to the Finnish goth metal band "Nightwish"?  I love them!

Traci xoxo

 

 

I'm usually not into anything hard sounding like goth metal, but you never know, I'll definitely give them a listen and let you know, Traci.

They do a song with a video called "Amaranth" with loads of symbolism of the fallen Christ...good song and the video is wide open to interpretation.  Their lead singer is trained in opera and she has a fabulous voice with an enormous range!  I also do not normally migrate to that genre but was turned on to them by someone whose music opinion I respect very much.  Glad she shared it with me...(smile)

Traci xoxo

Wow Traci, I didn't know goth metal could sound so melodic and beautiful, no doubt helped by the feminine touch of the lead singer. Thank you for sharing this!

As this topic has drifted onto music here is a song from an artist I admire. I am not to keen on this but as it was on her second album , I listened to it , then I listened again. As a lyric listener this reminded me of the day I came out fulltime as who I am. The words and video tell a story about a day , that day. In the video which matches the lyrics she is ignored just as I was. The words decribe every emotion and feeling.

 

http://youtu.be/1e2_MvwLTI8 I still and always will prefer her debut single Torn and her first album. Natalie Imbruglia singing That Day.

 

Take care , Julia x

I saw the video and especially like the lyrics after the halfway point. But I just spent time reading the whole lyrics and got the chills:

"That Day (Moment Of Clarity)"

That day, that day
What a mess what a marvel
I walked into that cloud again
And I lost myself
And I'm sad, sad, sad
Small, alone, scared
Craving purity
A fragile mind and
A gentle spirit
That day, that day
What a marvellous mess
This is all that I can do
I'm done to be me
Sad, scared, small, alone, beautiful
It's supposed to be like this
I accept everything
It's supposed to be like this

That day, that day
I lay down beside myself
In this feeling of pain, sadness
Scared, small, climbing, crawling
Towards the light
And it's all I see and
I'm tired and I'm right
And I'm wrong
And it's beautiful

That day that day
What a mess
What a marvel
We're all the same
And no one thinks so
And it's okay
And I'm small
And I'm divine
And it's beautiful
And it's coming
But it's already here
And it's absolutely perfect

That day, that day
When everything was a mess
And everything was in place
And there's too much hurt
Sad, small, scared, alone
And everyone's a cynic
And it's hard and it's sweet
But it's supposed
To be like this

That day, that day
When I sat in the sun
And I thought and I cried
'Cause I'm sad, scared, small
Alone, strong
And I'm nothing
And I'm true
Only a brave man
Can break through
And it's all okay
Yeah, it's okay

I bet you didn't know Natalie Imbruglia bought the rights to Torn from this rock band...Edna Swap, I listened to them in the late 90s and early 2000s. You can't go wrong with their album Wonderland Park, I still have the CD. The female lead singer has a nice raspy, lower key voice. I personally would need it to be a few keys lower to sing comfortably, that's how much of an alto I am.

Torn, original rock version: http://youtu.be/V1SH1YdITDI

Don't feel bad for this talented songwriter/lead singer, she's laughing all the way to the bank.

Edit: I just started singing it, and it's not too uncomfortable, actually maybe just one key lower...
This post was edited by Former Member at April 7, 2016 10:53 PM BST

As I said Lisa That day has every emotion there is , or virtually. That day I came out.Those last lines.

 

Alone, strong

And I'm nothing

And I am true

Only a brave man can break through (Me if he dares) I added that.

And it's all okay

Yeah it's okay.

 

And I was okay and still am but no longer a nothing , I am someone , I am me and bloody proud of it.

 

Sorry I like Natalie Imbruglia's version of Torn better , it has more soul.

 

Love , Julia x

And the words to this mean a lot to me. I had the pleasure to meet Delta Goodrem but at a sad time for her.

 

Born to Try https://youtu.be/qTBOJ71ypRw And we were born to try.

 

Take care , Julia x

I like both versions equally. Natalie's is faster and more pop and yes she sings with soul, Edna Swap is slower and more filled with a gut wrenching pain...

I'll definitely check out that link later, for now I must run, not literally but you know.

After I got over how PRETTY she is, I can say that the song is okay, not my favorite, but not bad. Here's just a snippet of the lyrics that I liked:

No point in talking what you should have been
And regretting the things that went on
Life's full of mistakes, destinies and fate
Remove the clouds look at the bigger picture

And all that you see is me
And all I truly believe

That I was born to try
I've learned to love
Be understanding
And believe in life
But you've got to make choices
Be wrong or right
Sometimes you've got to sacrifice the things you like

It was her debut single Lisa and she did make some amazing follow ups. I think she was only 16 or just over when she recorded it but have not checked. Yes she is beautiful but at the time I met her she was not very well (the C word). I told her that song could have been written for me , her reply was me too. I think the lyrics are very female related , it just comes accross that way. We used to have a music forum here but it was never used , I tried to revive it but it was not to be. I cannot work without music on in the background , it relaxes me and the right songs and artists inspire me.

 

Take care , Julia x

Same here Julia...I always have a tune running thru my brain even when away from any source of music!  I often scurry home and sit down with my guitars to work out those melodies or even create my own...it never runs "dry" for me!  Music is my heartbeat!  (smile)

Traci xoxo

I wish I had a brain Traci lol , I think I have got a hard drive in my head and it is getting full. Sometimes I repeat myself . I wish I had a brain Traci repeat myself Traci myself myself repeat repeat repeat Traci brain Traci Sorry web page has expired expired expired expired........................................................................Julia , xxx

*gagging on my smoothie*  LOL  Whatever it is you're on Julia, I want some too...(smile)

Traci xoxo