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  • Topic: A Tipping point, help, where next?

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    • December 7, 2017 11:01 AM GMT
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      A Tipping point, help, where next?

      Hi! So, I just passed a tipping point; but where next?  I want to nudge gently to reveal slowly to my wife because she is my best friend, but I am suddenly wondering if I am doing the wrong thing and should instead continue to keep it all hidden from her and find other outlets…….  But after so many years of doing that and having all that anxiety eating inside at me, I increasingly feel the urge to come out and … well to BE ME.…. So, Help! Which way forward, what specifically can I do to move in the right way?

      I have shaved legs for years (conveniently, I am a mad keen cyclist with lots of creams to rub in) and wear my nails longer than “normal.” I’ve been nudging a little recently, by asking and receiving understanding to wear my favourite black opaque tights around the house, with shorts, not a skirt, (that is still a “no, no.”) It is part of my desire to have my feminine side gradually accepted for existing; to do what I want to do in my own home; but am I doing this with the wrong person?  Should it be with others? Should it be with other cross dressers in secret; I want my wife to understand, because she is my best friend, but when I edge forward a bit, she immediately sees a monster-sized threat that will destroy our marriage, home, family, appearance & embarrass her with all her friends, etc etc and a sensational scandal – (“OMG I married a transvestite; this can only end in divorce”).

      So, my wife is drawing red lines, fearful of a domino effect where she has to change her way of life, and she sees divorce as the only option. “I have choices too” she keeps reminding me in a thinly-disguised threatening way, and “IF we are still together next year this all has to stop.”  How and what can I do to edge forward towards greater acceptance, or do I have to accept that she hates my feminine side and it will have to stay closeted forever?? Help!

      Love to all, and thansk for the fab advice on this site - it is amazing! So happy I joined recently.

      Nathalia :-)

      This post was edited by Nathalia van Lydia at December 7, 2017 11:05 AM GMT
    • December 7, 2017 1:12 PM GMT
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      If she loves you, she will stay; after all, no matter how you dress, you are still you!

    • December 7, 2017 1:56 PM GMT
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      Hi Nathalia

      I am v v lucky in that my wife is ok with me dressing with her. However she prefers me to wear skirts / dresses etc without wig / makeup as she says that is still me and only doing what she does every day by dressing in trousers etc. Today's western ban on men wearing skirts is purely a societal construct. The Spartans (who wore short tunics - dresses  - and were as tough as they come) in ancient Greece regarded the Persians as effeminate cos they wore trousers! And proceeded to soundly thrash them in battle while wearing said mini dresses. Perhaps you could ease in slowly by wearing a sarong ( David Beckham style) or something similar with no hair / makeup and act strictly as the usual you? Once she sees you are still you and relaxes a little move on slowwwwwwwwwwly from there?

      As Gerri says I think the key is to show her that you are still the old you even though you are wearing tights etc to minimise the potential threat that she is seeing coming over the hill.

      (Unfortunately of course, since I don't know either of you, this advice may be dangerous s..t.)

      Anyway, what do you think?  Robyn

    • December 7, 2017 2:02 PM GMT
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      It is either that or be miserable for the rest of your life. But like you said Robyn, this is not my situation, or my life.

    • December 7, 2017 2:22 PM GMT
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      Hi Robyn, Hi Gerri.  thanks for the messages. That’s good advice. yes, I think for this situation for now…. To be as be cheerful and happy around the house whilst wearing tights and shorts, so she can see it is me. Though she was a bit sceptical of that line once before, saying when  I  look at you I turn off, as I am not turned on by women. Anyway in a while, when, how long?  then I’m aiming to add the skirt. I have a women’s black tennis skirt or skort as they call them,  as I am a fitness freak, and that is short and sporty like my sports shorts. Looks great with my 40 den Dims. Step by step I think for sure. I’m steering clear of the make-up, for the moment, though she knows I sometimes wear eyeliner when I’m out (though freaks at that if I don’t remove it fully before getting home LOL) My hairstylist loves me turning up in eyeliner, earrings and nail varnish oh any super skinny jeans or leggings, though in that situation, I’m not “presenting as a woman”.  Any more ideas??????

      Oh, and yes,  I totally agree with the men’s skirt artificial construct – I am soooo anti-heteronormativity and love gender fluidity, I bought a short black heavy cotton kilt last month at a Tattoo festival (another interest of mine) and loved it so much I wore it home on public transport - admittedly it was late at night and I had tough big black boots on so it was not dressing en femme,  but you still get an authentic skirt feeling of freedom - authentic and I loved it - I am going to do that more, and add tights to that outfit. Why oh why do so many people get blocked in their thinking about this -  I know it is really the weakness of men who see it as a threat to their (OMG how boring) manliness. J  Yuk yuk.Dont relate well with men -  prefer women every time

       

      Love you all :-) xxxx

      Nathalia

    • December 7, 2017 3:13 PM GMT
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      Ah well you've sort of answered my next question I hope but....

      Who did your wife marry and who has she lived with up to now and who are you in public?

      Worse case: You go out cycling wit' lads every sunday, come home and watch the rugby with them while drinking tinnies and shouting abuse at the ref. You wear scruffy jeans and camo vests while body building and live at the pub. You work as a ship builder holding hot rivets in your teeth before banging them in bare handed. (Extreme but you see my point)?

      Best case: You cycle with the wife every sunday, love kittens and paint flowers in watercolour when not helping with the housework.

      Its unlikely but if the first is remotely true (and even with the best case) you might be best back peddling seriously (no pun intended). Go to NEXT or non UK equivalent and buy some crossover flowery t shirts / polo shirts plus a couple of pairs of their very nice linen slacks and start wearing them while painting flowers, going out with her and doing the housework etc. Next move on to some tasteful and non visible panties (M&S in UK do very comfy stuff which is not too fem) etc etc. This will take months and years (especially if she is very hurt about you concealing stuff from her in the past) but whats that if you get what you want in the end? Robyn xxx

    • December 7, 2017 3:24 PM GMT
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      Don't relate well with women, prefer men every time, lol.

      But it is really sad that women can so easily get away with being rough and tough in jeans and boots and dirt and grit (don't I know, lol), and still be unquestionably women, while if a man wears a pair of thighs or, god forbid, a skirt and some mascara, the sky comes down and oh the divine wrath!

      I am sorry about the situation with your wife...

      Maybe this is a very stupid and obvious suggestion, and you already did this, but just in case, I wonder if you have tried getting her interested in reading about the experiences of other CDs' partners? I think most women don't realize how many CDs are heterosexual, to begin with. There is a tendency to believe that if a man dresses, he must surely be gay!!! And then he won't love me anymore!!!

      I am not sure... but unless one is naturally inclined to this sort of quirkiness ;) there is a lot of stuff to learn and understand before you can wrap your head around it.

      O course if she is not attracted to the look of you in girly things there's not much to be done about that (although... sometimes you just have to get used to stuff before you take a liking to it... a man in heels is an aquired taste), but perhaps she could come to accept it as a sort of part-time platonic inmate if she doesn't feel pressed to interact with Nathalia in a spousy kind of way? Not ideal, but better than nothing?

       

       

    • December 7, 2017 3:59 PM GMT
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      Warning! love can soon turn to a feeling of being betrayed, revulsion, ''should have told me before we got married''   If you don't get to pursue your ambitions/feelings, living in fear of getting caught out, stifled, will you in turn become resentful, there are NO easy answers, Women marry and love men, for their masculine approach to life, a feeling of security and being protected, otherwise perhaps they might have married another woman in the first place.   Do it with others, if she found that out, that would definately be the end.

       

      First of all you have to make your mind up, are you transsexual or just a cross dresser. a minority of couples end up staying together where a transsexual aspect is involved, most end up in divorce.  Most would be disgusted at the thought of being married to a cross dresser seeing it as some sort of perverted fetish for sexual kicks and   whereas with transsexuals they can over time learn that partners have a clinical need for a permanent change.    

       

      https://gendersociety.com/forums/topic/10112/divorcing-and-the-unreasonable-transexual

      ____________________________________
      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out





      Don't get angry
      when others are talking behind your back... because they're just proving
      that your life is obviously more interesting than theirs.
    • December 7, 2017 5:24 PM GMT
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      Hi all, thanks so much for engaging with me on this. It is really helpful. On who did she marry, I get your point and no, I’m definitely not a builder- welder-beer swilling lout, no way:  I am much closer to the other:  but not yet with kittens LOL. My wife knows me as an intelligent caring considerate responsible & trendy guy with a “weird” streak, often thought was a “a bit gay” but for majority of time an ok guy. Before we married I wore tights and skirts at home on the odd occasion and we talked about it though I was unsure at that time what this was inside me; it is only through talking to my psy that I have dug down deep and discovered more. So the simple thing is that I preferred to “hide” in a normal relationship (with a weird streak) – it was the normal thing to do in those days;  I grew up in a town where being gay was a horror, and LGBT was  unthinkable or a perversion. So I am guilty of covering a lot up and trying to handle / suppress  it myself internally, which has caused some scary moments and trauma for me over and over, purging, and re-purging, and trying to conform to a stereotypes I don’t really feel comfortable with; conforming, always confirming to other people’s view of how people should be. Thanks to my psy for keeping me stable. Bon, anyway, I am going to keep nudging as you suggest; I’ve being doing the fem underwear for years, though in the past she’s had phases rejecting the tights, they are now truly OK. She knows there is something up, but I guess I need to take it very slowly and, you are right, hiding stuff is not a good idea, which is why I am trying to get it out there, but at a pace that allows others to transition with me…..  FYI, I am slim sporty, cyclist (it is actually true). Love my slim fit jeans etc, and flowery shirts. And have watched rugby a few times to keep in with our male friends, though whenever there was a party I would always be the weird one pushing boundaries and shocking the others LOL. So she married a man knowing he had a weird streak, but not fully its extent. 

      Christine, I love all you write, and so pleased to have you write about me!!  Yes, I get those points completely. I have hidden some stuff that is best left well, buried, as I cannot change the past. She has ventured to read some stuff but it is exactly the stuff that I did not want: She sent me a links to “Woman’sDay” (drama/gossip) about the husband who "could only get excited when in women’s clothes" Hello, that is so NOT my situation. That was not a helpful arguement. And another from “Sisternet.com – for the TG community” on “10 reasons why cross dressing ends in divorce”. you can see those links below) Oh dear, I think, when this is what she is reading, where is all this leading? How can I regain control of the direction? Are there other good articles out there that can help her to see a compromise? She has asked me to see things from her side, which I agree is a good thing to do, so I want to understand so I can manage the conversations better......

      All this strong talk of splitting up makes me think more and more of living alone in an apartment in the centre of a lively city where I can be free, and meet friends, enjoy city life, people, buzz, lights, music, action – our current suburban home & garden dreamlife is a prison of boredom for me as I’m a go out have fun person at heart, and do not feel the need to have and to consume, I’d rather just BE and live life freely.

      Those links:

      https://www.sisterhouse.net/familyroom/2015/04/10/10-reasons-cross-dressers-wives-divorce-them/

       
       
      Love you all, XXX Nathalia
    • December 7, 2017 6:35 PM GMT
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      I was'nt judging you, far from it,   I was pointing out you might have a more serious condition than being a cross dresser or some sort of sexual deviant, which is generally the conclusion wives arrive at.    

      After a very unhappy childhood,   I had to learn more, I had a need to know, one of the reasons I stay on as a member here, I have studied clinical and physcological reasons for gender dysphoria  had a couple of papers published, some people don't care, they just do it or don't do it,   Some of the posts in the link I gave above, were not empathetic, my honest opinion which I stated in the last post, people with the condition we have tend to suppress it, lead a ''normal'' life, I never believe there is a deliberate attempt to be devious.

       

      One couple I helped on here read some of my work, and eventually had their marriage converted to a same sex marriage when that option became available in 2010, if the spouse is willing to at least try and understand the complexities of the issues at hand, sometimes the marriage does not continue, another couple are now like sisters as opposed to being man and wife.   Transphobia does'nt just affect us, it affects wives and families as well, as in friends and family ''If that was my son I would throw him out ''how can you live with a weirdo like that''   ''if that was my husband I would leave him''  

      My father, caught me in bed wearing my sisters nightie, I was thrown against the wall kicked and punched, broken sternum, broken jaw and a broken wrist, I was a a pervert, a sissy boy, ''not in this family'',  I was 12 years old.  I later learned from my studies the condition I have was passed on to me by my mother, who also rejected me.

       

      Some people say they are pleased they are trans, No, they might be happy making the best of the cards they were dealt, but life would have been much simpler if they were dealt a matching pair. 

       

      https://gendersociety.com/forums/topic/7805/heteronormativity

      This post was edited by Cristine Shye. BL at December 8, 2017 2:40 PM GMT
      ____________________________________
      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out





      Don't get angry
      when others are talking behind your back... because they're just proving
      that your life is obviously more interesting than theirs.
    • December 7, 2017 9:06 PM GMT
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      Been there, done that. I reached the point of no return so the decision to come out was easy. My life is number one, period. By coming out, your intentions are good, not bad. You need to live your life and want her to continue to be part of it, and vice versa. If you sit down with her, and calmly explain to her you love her and need to discuss something with her, the best you can hope for is total acceptance. The only thing you have to lose by hiding, is your sanity. The only thing you have to gain by coming out is your sanity.
    • December 8, 2017 1:06 PM GMT
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      Christine,

      I can share with you my childhood story for your research / info, I prefer to do that separately 1 to 1.

      Yes your spot on: it is not just cross dressing or pervert; there is something else deeper in there. For the time being I am trying to calm things down with my wife, and have a conversation; though that is not easy as it easily goes off the rails; she says she has had “too much to put up” (though she knows only a tiny part of what I have been going through all these years). I have managed, but with plenty of ups and downs, and deep downs too. I do need to understand more from her side; as you say, she wants a man, not necessarily a butch macho type, but a protector, so she gets unsettled with long nails, shaved legs, but has put up with it. I think she also feels unloved, though we can have a great laugh together and think th same on many things. However, I am constantly distracted, and having moods and swinging wildy from being great husband, gardener, homey etc to being restless and “unstable”.

       

      The articles you sent are helpful.  The other major thing is that we have reached a major milestone as kids have left home to uni / work, and we are struggling with finding new things to do together as a couple, we’ve kind of lost our way: she is content to be at home, with her role as non-working (she resents that situation) being wife, mother, housekeeper, nice home and garden stuff, but I have a wild side that wants go to go out, like I said, to enjoy company lights music fun bars etc. When I feel down  I tend to swing to my alter ego and become obsessed with my fem side, maybe as a sort of escape from reality, for comfort -  I feel calmer there, but constantly feel watched, judged by others which is disconcerting, and that then  makes me a bit paranoid, and the cycle starts over again; it’s not helped by my rejection hang-up, I’ve always wanted from childhood to be loved, and didn’t feel it, and wanted therefore always to please people, everyone in fact, which I’ve learned ( late in life) to be never possible, so when I get a push back, a criticism, it wounds me. I’ve definitely got some complexities, and find it real hard to keep on a constant, a level keel, solid path. Sorry about the complexities. J I’m kinda pouring it out now… but without getting it properly ordered. Maybe you can make sense of it.

      XXX Nathalia

    • December 10, 2017 6:50 PM GMT
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      This is such a great thread and just reading it I felt a lump in my throat and my eyes filling up.

      I have the same issues about being myself or what I feel is my true self.  I too struggle with my wife and how she views me, she sent me to the Doctor a while ago in the hope that he would just say I was kinky or had a fetish and I would grow out of this fascination she was upset and confused when I came back with the news that the doctor believed me to be bi-gendered and that to help with my anxiety I should try to be more my true self. Over time she has allowed me to shop with her for clothes and cosmetics but does not want to see me as I feel I am and she does not want me to go out as I am and certainly not to town, which is very difficult. 

      Its been a slow process to get this far with many times feeling it was two steps forward three steps back.  Like you my wife is my soul mate and best friend and so I try to keep her feelings in view and abide by her wishes and just keep talking and reassuring her.

    • December 11, 2017 10:14 AM GMT
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      Hi Sara,

      Thanks for dipping into this one! Your wife sounds very progressive, by shopping with you for clothes etc her. My wife and I are very progressive thinkers, but what seems to block her is the simple reason that she is attracted to men and wants me to be a man /manly.  I told her the other day that because she is the very bestest friend I have, I wanted to be open with her as my friend. I think she appreciated that. I was perhaps misguided by wanting to have her (as my wife) see me at home in a dress /tights etc.  One of the issues is that if she cannot accept me for who/what I truly am, then I am compelled to hide it, be secretive, and that is not good for me; it reinforces a psychological fear that it is “unacceptable”, and makes me fearful of being “found out” and that feeds more anxiety. And so the spiral continues. I want to break that cycle. I have often thought of leaving but that is driven by a fear fright/flight reaction to difficult situations. I do so much want her to understand me and to accept all of me, so I can be myself. I understand her reaction about wanting to see me as a man (only) and I am sure we can work on some rules, but at the moment I see it a long way off that she will accept that I dress or go out en femme. You know that would relieve a huge anxiety for me: when I think about going out, the fear of being found out (by her) is powerful, and that feels like restraining me, so I get frustrated, and I hate it. Maybe it is best to go slowly; my psy says don’t go too far too fast. And my wife also says don’t push me. She has said the tights are ok, but I don’t (yet???) want to see you in makeup and a dress. LOL. What are your plans for next steps, and do tell me how you managed to reach an agreement about shopping for clothes and makeup?

      XXX Nathalia.

    • December 11, 2017 12:36 PM GMT
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      Dear Nathalia

      To be honest I have no set plans at the moment and just go with the flow.  I was hoping to attend a LGBT night out but this looks to be out of the question at the moment, due to her fears of me being found out and the issues that could cause her and the Kids, and also the kids are ill with coughs and colds and they need sympathy and tissues. But there will be other chances and opportunities so I cant just be selfish as others have needs as well. 

      I found that pushing things was not good in a number of ways, I got angry and frustrated and that made me feel worse about myself.  Also I hated putting my wife under pressure and I found that I was becoming selfish and distant.  My wife is the same where she doesn't want to see me as Sara, though she has seen pictures of me and the occasional bumping in to me at home when she allows me time. 

      Having decided that I would stop pressuring her and being selfish, I went with the flow.  Then one day she was having a sort out of clothes for the charity box and I was helping her and some bits were too good to give away so she just passed them to me.  The make up thing happened as she was fed up of the mess I would make with the powders and so she gave me some ideas.  We then were shopping as man and wife and we were in a ladies shop with her trying on things,  I got bored and started looking through the dresses and then suddenly she was at my shoulder.  It was lovely when she turned round and said it was a lovely dress and though it wouldn't suit her I should get it.  Now I have some scarfs and live off hand me downs from both her and my daughter (which is sweet).

      Like any relationship it is compromise and listening to each other.  I always feel bad for her as she married a man in all senses and this is difficult to her though she does acknowledge the distress I can find myself in at times. 

      As I have said I am just going with the flow, I try to educate myself as much as I can to understand where in the rainbow I fit and am comfortable with.  I have found that there is a lot of pressure to just divorce go your own way and transition fully,  but its not for everyone and can be more damaging in the long run.  Though there is little scene here I talk to several transgenders on various sites and have been inspired by their journeys and humbled by their advice. 

      In our "day lives" we can be come jealous of others or down about our situation wanting to be, more successful, better jobs, more kids, more money, fancier clothes and have a sexier wife on our arms, the reality is this too can be only a fantasy due to our negative thoughts about ourselves.  The same is true of transitioning we can have all the pin ups and want to be them, the reality is that there is only so much a surgeon can do with what we have, you can't suddenly be your favorite female star.  We can also be left by transitioning to whatever stage,  further isolated by friends, families have trouble finding and keeping jobs.  As such you should listen to your psy, knowledgeable people and make sure within your own self you are ready and happy to make the next step.

      hopefully this helps you and others

      This post was edited by Sara Calypso at December 13, 2017 8:24 AM GMT
    • December 12, 2017 2:32 AM GMT
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      Christine has given you some blunt, down to earth, truth about what transition really means. I came out to my wife in 2006 that I was trans and had been on hormones for 1 1/2 years at that point. It did not go over well, but I fought hard to keep our marriage together. I told her I could stop hormones, that lasted one week. As she began to accept my circumstances I told her I could just go back and forth from dressing as a woman and living as a man. In 2008 I went full-time. When I went full-time and she was forced into a position of having to tell others, they told her to run. Likewise people in my life told me I should divorce and move on. Nonetheless I continued fighting to keep our marriage together. After going full-time I told her I could live without having my SRS. In 2010 I went to Thailand and had my surgery with one of the finest surgeons in the world. In 2011 I sat down and told her I wanted to experience men. Somehow we seemingly stayed together, but our relationship was no longer easy to define. We were not husband and wife. Sisters? She already had sisters. Friends, roommates, etc. We had become two different people. As I moved forward in my new life she tagged along, but the reality is she was lost back when it all began and became very depressed. Our divorce was final in 2016.

      I think that is the domino effect your wife worries about. It's real, it happens to a lot of us whether we want it to or not. I've been fortunate and enjoy a good life as a woman. I can only hope one day my now ex-wife will live a good life. 

      ____________________________________

      Just living my dream in paradise :)

    • December 12, 2017 1:50 PM GMT
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      At least you were honest with her.

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