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Fuel protests possible

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  • UK members - please be aware of the POSSIBILITY of widespread fuel protests starting Wednesday of this week.

    Whatever you do, please don't go panic buying, but if you see queues forming at petrol stations that are larger than normal, it might be a good idea to fill up.

    There is talk of blocking refineries. There is also talk of NOT blocking refineries, but bringing motorways to a standstill instead. Basically, nobody seems to quite know what's going to happen yet, but it could be a variety of types of protest.

    Please also realise that many fuel protestors are campaigning for a move away from oil and a move towards more sustainable resources - it's just that the price at the moment is darned high and a short term fix is needed.

    Also please be aware that the rise in oil prices in this country is little to do with Katrina. Apart from the fact that the UK is an oil producing nation in the first place, the recent hikes in fuel prices started getting severe long before the hurricane. In march of last year the average litre cost about 83 p. Now the average litre is about 97p, with some forcourts 'profiteering' with charges of up to £1.16 per litre.

    Anyhow, that's the basics of it. Feel free to agree or disagree with it, but please do it for the right reasons.

    Just a friendly warning of the POSSIBILITY really.

    EDIT: Just in case (though I don't know why they would) anyone wonders if this is just to scare people, or worse still, is exaggerated (well, it's not been hugely reported on tv - Government is trying to prevent mass hysteria I expect), just search Google News for "fuel protest", and then you can get hold of the info for yourself if you're interested.
      September 12, 2005 5:15 AM BST
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  • I have to agree with Rhia on the don't go into panic mode and try to squeeze fuel into an already full tank like happened last time. It was the panic buying that prevented the previous protest form having any effect whatsoever, and gave the Government the authority to bring in emergency powers to prevent a repeat.

    However, I have to disagree with the comment about the prices not being related to Katrina. The sudden rapid rise in the price of a barrel of crude in the last few weeks, which caused the sudden increase in petrol prices, was entirely due to Katrina. The shutting in of the Gulf oil fields and the loss of refinery capacity in the US meant demand far outstriped supply in the US, the futures markets reacted by buying oil for October delivery and pushing the prices artificially high. Prices have since dropped back to pre Katrina levels again, albeit higher than this time last year because of continued refinery shortages in the US and a certain degree of instability in the world.

    What needs to be remembered is there is more profit for the petrol retailers in a Mars Bar than in a litre of petrol. The oil companies make virtually all their profit on getting the oil out of the ground and selling the crude oil, not on refining it and selling it to us as petrol. Remember as well that approx 75% of the price at the pump is tax, both excise duty and VAT. If you want to do something complain to your MP about the taxing of the tax on Petrol. VAT is applied after excise duty on the raw product, rather than on the base price like every other good and service.

    My personal strategy is to shop at the supermarkets, they generally have the cheapest petrol around, don't shop at the rip off merchant charging £1.16 and then complain about the price (unless of course you live in the highlands where there isn't the choice normally).

    Or of course you could walk or get on your bike, just an idea of course.

    Alex
    xxxx
    Life's Too Short Not To..... Living on Dreams and Custard Creams...... You're Only Young Once...But You Can Stay Immature Indefinitely.....
      September 12, 2005 9:38 AM BST
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  • In the UK, the fuel price rise has been crazy.

    Prices rose significantly about 6 to 8 weeks ago, arriving at about 95p per litre. This was well before Katrina was even a tropical storm. When Katrina hit, the price of Crude hit a record high that day, and it effected the UK by increasing the price by a further 2-3 pence.the price of oil then dropped by $5 a barrel, and yet we are still paying more and more.

    This is partcularly odd when you consider that the UK is an oil producing nation - capable of prosucing enough oil from the North Sea fields to sustain our own needs.

    I'm an environmentalist, and feel we need to move away from oil rapidly. I can't help but disagree with the environmental parties though when they say that the cost of fuel compared to income is cheaper than it's ever been, speaking as a motorist. Maybe if I had a good wage, and was able to buy a brand new car which is more efficient, but no. Some of us have to drive an old Volvo because they can afford little else.

    I'd make the average cost of motoring here in the UK about £200 a month when you consider road tax insurance MOT, mainenance, and then on top of that extortonate fuel prices.
      September 12, 2005 10:07 AM BST
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  • The rise in the price of crude oil is related to the lack of refinery capacity in the US where demand rose dramatically in recent months (something to do with holidays and everyone driving everywhere I believe), even before Katrina. However, remember there have been a few hurricanes in the area this year that have resulted in the shut down of sections of the Gulf fields, bringing into the equation production shortages.

    Yes the UK can produce more than enough petrol ends to supply our on demands (at present), in fact we export Brent Crude to others, but we are still at the mercy of the financial markets for the cost of those barrels of Brent Crude all the same. So although our own refining and production is unaffected the price is out with our control, affected as it is by the situation in USA, Iraq, Africa etc

    I agree we need to stop putting hydrocarbons into the infernal combustion engine as it is far to valuable resource to send up in smoke. It appears, form browsing the motoring press, that some movement is being made to reduce the reliance on oil as a fuel. Several manufacturers have agreed to work together on hybrid technology for example. Sometimes the world needs a wake up call and maybe the £1 a litre is just that.

    The world might as well get used to increased fuel prices as the rate of discovery and development can not keep up with extraction for much longer, when that happens the oil price will rocket and those who have adjusted now will deal with it far better than those with their heads in the sand.

    Alex
    xxx
    Life's Too Short Not To..... Living on Dreams and Custard Creams...... You're Only Young Once...But You Can Stay Immature Indefinitely.....
      September 12, 2005 10:27 AM BST
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  • That's the thing though - fuel may cost £1 a litre, but that's only because the motorist pays tax on tax (the only place it happens)

    as it stood back when fuel was 83 pence a litre, 41.7 pence wen't to the government, plus VAT on the total cost at 17.5%

    as for Hybrid tech, It's all a load of rubbish. Sure, it's a step in the right direction, but ultimately it's designed to prolong reliance on oil. There is already the possibility of pure hydrogen cars which work just as well as petrol cars. And even if we didn't want to go down that road, there are biofuels which work equally well. Both would do away with oil completely.
      September 12, 2005 11:16 AM BST
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  • As I understand it most of the fuel protesters anger in the UK is aimed at the "high" levels of tax levied on petrol. Many people blame "the government" (blanket term) and see a simple solution to the problem in the reduction of such taxes. But the revenue lost by reducing fuel taxes would only have to be raised elsewhere by increasing other forms of taxation. The fuel protesters have yet to offer their suggestions as to where this lost revenue would be raised.

    It's worth remembering that we don't pay VAT (purchase tax) on food in the UK whereas some other European countries (who may have lower fuel duties) do. Within reason I can choose not to drive but I gotta eat!

    Also I can drive from one end of the country to the other on a crowded but reasonably efficient motorway system without paying road tolls .. unlike much of Europe

    In addition, there is a "price expectation" now (ie. we have got used to the levels of fuel prices) you can bet if the government lowered the duty on a litre by 10p the forecourt price would soon creep back up to the same levels as the Oil companies sensed an opportunity to claw back a few pence for themselves.

    And ... I'm moving house this weekend, if I can't cos there's no petrol to be had thanks to these protests and the inevitable panic buying that will ensue I'll be well miffed!!

    Cerys x

    (Where are the silent electric hovering scooters I was promised as a child we would all be riding come the year 2000?)

      September 12, 2005 11:34 AM BST
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  • Hi,this is going to be one of those subjects that stirs peoples emotions some what.I just hope it doesn't get too emotive.Personally I agree with what Cerys says.Living on an island surely there's going to be a time where you can only have so many cars on the road.How much more countryside is going to be lost to new motorways,just so that even a greater number of cars etc can come to a standstill.xxxAlli.
      September 12, 2005 11:46 AM BST
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  • 2 2627
    What I've noticed is if they want to raise prices 10cents. They jump them 30cents. Then slowly come back down leaving it up the 10cents. No one complains because it's better than the 30cents. People buy it saying the price went back down & are happy.
    They do this using different reasons. First saying winter mix cost more to produce. Than later saying the conversion to summer mix added to the cost.
    <p>Karen Brad</p>
      September 12, 2005 12:00 PM BST
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  • You guys are lucky

    Our prices just keep going up. I think the only time I've ever seen them come down was in 2000 because of the last fuel protest.
      September 12, 2005 12:02 PM BST
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  • 2 2627
    It still goes up they just try to make it look softer.
    <p>Karen Brad</p>
      September 12, 2005 12:08 PM BST
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  • ah! but it's made to look softer! at least they have some consideration for how it makes the average person feel over there, and at least pretend to care.
      September 12, 2005 12:29 PM BST
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  • I'd support protests now, as i did last time. last time i worked for Toyota.. guess the protest had about 80% of the shop floor behind it.

    now i work in the rail industry.. be interesting to see how long before that stops, my depot has fuel for two days *if* they order it right and top the tanks up (bets anyone?)

    go slow on the motorwayss... yyeeaaaaahhhh right. will anyone actually notice?

    bear in mind this ins't France where protests are a way of life, the French are good at it, they practice. over here if theres chance of Bliar & co getting egg on thier faces the army will be brought in and much of the media arm twisted.

    how long before "schools and hospitals" will suffer, not that you'll see a minister *walking* anywhere oooo no.

    it will also "affect the war on terror"

    and probably

    "prove the need for ID cards" as well.

    basically cus these three are wheeled out whenever they are in a corner.

    ho hum.

    just waiting for presgut to be wheeled out with his special brand of diplomacy.

    fingers crossed, but not holding me breath.
    Claire Rand email : [email protected] Yahoo : clair_rand -- Its not so much that I have issues as the case that I have a subscription... [url]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AuntIsobels[/url]
      September 12, 2005 4:00 PM BST
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  • 2 2627
    I think it's more of that we're being played for fools.
    Trying to make us feel good about paying higher prices.
    <p>Karen Brad</p>
      September 12, 2005 4:54 PM BST
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  • Easy way for the government to reduce the price of petrol at the pump by 8.24 pence.....stop taxing a tax!

    Currently VAT on Petrol is calculated by applying the 17.5% tax to the price of a litre of fuel after the Excise Duty has been applied, so a taxed tax occurs.

    This is the only time this ricockulous practice happens and is a disgrace.

    By stopping this "Highway Robbery" the price of a litre of fuel would drop by 8.24 pence

    If you want confirmation of this fact check out
    http://www.abd.org.uk and read the recent press release 455

    And for a simple analysis of the cost of a litre of fuel, where it goes, how it breaks down and compares to other European countries check out the BBC
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/s[...]l/1.stm

    And finally check out this
    http://www.ukpia.com/Port[...].05.pdf for a brief explanation of where and how oil prices and petrol prices come about.

    Perhaps the best protest should be to our MP's, MWA, MSP's to campaign about the double tax whammy we get hit with here in UK and not blockade refineries, go slows and other actions that will only be used to bring in new powers, forward the case for road tolling, bring ID cards closer and other unpleasantness.

    Perhaps it's time to remind our elected representatives who actually gives them the job.

    Alex
    xxxx
    Life's Too Short Not To..... Living on Dreams and Custard Creams...... You're Only Young Once...But You Can Stay Immature Indefinitely.....
      September 14, 2005 8:34 AM BST
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  • Who just waited 45 mins to fill up her car at a forecourt only quarter of a mile from one of Britain's largest refineries? Grrr!

    An equally interesting set of figures (again from the BBC) here to compliment Alex's ....

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/s[...]l/1.stm

    Which shows amongst other things that fuel duty is actually less in real terms now than it was in 1995, though I take the point about the double rachet effect of VAT on top of duty.

    I wonder how much of the current panic arises from reaching the psychological £1 per litre level. Add to that the fact that people would rather moan than adjust to the simple fact that the world is moving on and "cheap" fuel is now part of history for all manner of geo-political reasons.

    Cerys xx

      September 14, 2005 9:48 AM BST
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  • That's the thing though - Fuel IS cheap. It's the tax that's expensive.

    I agree we should move away from oil - did you know that it's possible to run your car on pure vegetable oil or on biofuel with the appropriate conversion? The trouble is, the engine conversion costs around £1500. The price of running your car on these fuels after that initial outlatay is about 6 times cheaper than running on petrol at the moment.

    The really odd thing is that the government aren't promoting it. Why? It's because they make so much money on taxing petrol - not just at the pump, but they get quite a large amount of tax directly from the oil companies to - directly proportionate to a barrel of crude.

    The environment is an EXCUSE for government to tax petrol - in reality they couldn't care less and just want the money.
      September 14, 2005 12:30 PM BST
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  • In fact Rhia you can run a diesel engined car on vegetable oil with a little white spirit without conversion and most modern cars will run on methanol with just a slight adjustment to the fuel injection system, so no real expense to use these fuels. The only problem would arise from having to change valve seats to deal with the higher burn temperature of methanol but the vast majority of new engines are fitted with hardened seats anyway.

    The conversion cost of around £1500 is probably for LPG as you need to have a new fuel tank fitted (think large orange calor gas canister) but you can get a grant for half the cost should you want to convert. Just remember that LPG stands for Liquified PETROLEUM Gas so guess where it comes from.

    I think this may kick start the move away from Petroleum based fuels towards other alternatives such as biofuels, hydrogen, fuel cells and electrics. The only problem is infrastructure and that's a catch 22. Until there is enough demand there won't be the supply and until there is the supply there won't be the demand. Bit like LPG a few years ago.

    Tax, one of lifes certainties. No matter how hard you try to avoid it they'll get the money from you somehow. You can guarentee if they drop tax on petrol they'll increase road fund or up VAT to 19.5% or some other method.

    Alex
    xxxx
    Life's Too Short Not To..... Living on Dreams and Custard Creams...... You're Only Young Once...But You Can Stay Immature Indefinitely.....
      September 14, 2005 12:52 PM BST
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  • Yes, I'm aware of running diesels on veg oil/methanol - but that's not what I was talking about. You can acctually run acar on pure vegetable oil with the right conversion. That said, the same is true of pure methanol. I acctually live just down the road from the town where the recent trend for running a diesel car on vegetable oil and methanol started (and ended!)

    The reason I didn't mention LPG is precisely because it's a trojan horse - just like hybrid cars it's a reliance on oil that only APPEARS to be a good solution.

    Biofuel is not the same as vegetable oil - the great thing about biofuel is that if the right plants are used, the Co2 absorbed by the crops is almost identical to the Co2 produced by burning the fuel. And it's very very cheap!

    The government is happy to offer grants for LPG conversion precisely BECAUSE it comes from oil. The same is not true of vegetable oil or biofuels - both of which are better fuels in terms of both price, and environment. The government has done a reaonable amount to promote LPG, which is the very reason that it is now quite widely available - the technology for the other (better) fuels has been around for the same length of time.

    The thing is, there's NO catch 22 here. The demand is there and has been for a long time in some form or other. If motorists knew about these better fuels, and most don't, they'd jump at the chance if they could. All it takes is public promotion - something the government is very good at, especially in the form of propaganda. The classic buisiness model is that supply only exists BECAUSE there is demand - it's very bad buisness to produce a product before you know people want it.

    As for tax, well, inevitably they find the money somewhere else - to be honest, I think they should, maybe starting with the ending of overseas conflicts we have no real reason to be involved in. That probably won't happen, but I would say that the tax would be better spread around EVERYONE. I mean, wherever the tax motorists pay goes, it certainly isn't towards the roads - it goes towards services for the public as a whole, war, and MP's pay rises.

      September 14, 2005 1:29 PM BST
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  • It is seriously quite easy. You do not buy petrol from major companies.You look for the small ones.ie morrison.tesco etc who look to be in the big market but are not.Shaken by market forces, the big ones then respond by a drop in prices which is matched by the smaller ones to keep pace. It is show bizz after all
    If you've got it,Wear it! XX Rowlie
      September 23, 2005 10:50 PM BST
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