Coming Out to Someone Fundamentalist

  • August 13, 2006 3:42 AM BST
    Does anyone know of anything at all that helps when coming out to someone who's very rabidly Fundamentalist Christian? Anything at all that can be said once they dig in their heels and make it clear that they're not interested in hearing what I have to say?

    I think I've been pretty much disowned by my Mother. I will be seeing her next weekend, but I have a sinking feeling that our relationship cannot be salvaged and that this will simply be a formality. It's become a case of me versus Jesus, which is something I can't win (even though I tried to make it clear to her that I do believe in God and feel that this is the challenge that He's given me).
    • 515 posts
    August 13, 2006 6:22 AM BST
    The only thing I would try to do is not challenge the bible and it teachings but try to reinforce the forgivingness of your Jesus Christ and only let them with out sin cast a stone.

    It may be hard and painful but you only have one mother
  • August 13, 2006 2:38 PM BST
    With Mom, everything has to do with religion. After all, the war of Armageddon is beginning, and the rapture is going to happen any day now (just like she believed it would many times before). I know that a lot of her resistence comes because she is mourning, but it's her religion which is telling her that "no, this is wrong, your decision comes from Satan, and so I'm not even going to listen to your reasons."

    Taking the religion out of it is not an option, because it is always the religious argument that is thrown back at me.
  • August 14, 2006 3:22 AM BST
    Hi Mercedes,
    Unfortunately, the TS lifestyle is not something a fundimentalist can normally understand let alone accept. That would be asking them to compromise some basic beliefs. A bible based discussion is likely to backfire instead of helping. The best that you can hope for is a form of detente where you agree to disagree and try to co-exist and relate at some level.

    Good Luck,
    Michelle Lynn
    • 141 posts
    September 23, 2006 5:34 AM BST
    As a very spiritual but not religious person - an agnostic if you will - I agree with Frances. You cannot, nor shoud you try to, change your mother's opinion.
    To cast it in religious terms = if I may be so presumptuous - this is her test of faith and forgiveness. Only she can decide the outcome. Your responsibility is to your own soul and wellbing.
    • 1083 posts
    September 25, 2006 4:26 PM BST
    Mercedes, hun--

    First off, as one who is considered Christian, allow me to apologize on behalf of many Christians everywhere. It is not what we know, but what we do not practice--faith, love and hope--that is part of the issue. I won't go any further on that here, as it really is another topic altogether. Suffice it to say that we forget that Jesus told us to love one another (John 13:34-35).

    Secondly--and sadly--I must agree with many others. A true, hardcore, raging Fundamentalist--whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or whatever--does not (and will not) understand the CD/TG/TS lifestyle. It is (usually) incompatible with each group's Holy Writ, and while I can find no instance of Jesus, Paul, John or Peter claiming that "Thou shalt not cross-dress" (or words to that effect), Deuteronomy does show that. There's more on that in the link below.

    However...if we (as Christians) are no longer under the law, but saved by grace, not works, then it is a matter of the heart...not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9), nor of the wardrobe.

    So at this point, what I want to do is point out a link to this topic here on Trannyweb (yes, we've been here before) http://gendersociety.com/perl/community/cforums.cgi?action=messages&postid=9990166545575&threadid=9990165713169&forumid=9790124245322
    and let you go back and read a bunch of stuff there.

    If you have questions, e-mail me at [email protected].

    Luv 'n hugs,

    Rev. Minako Sakura, D.Min, DpTH, D.D., M.Div


    • 141 posts
    October 19, 2006 7:15 PM BST
    While I agree in general with Wendy's opening statement, "Why bother?" the issue does raise an interesting intellectual challenge. There is, I imagine, some number of people faced with rejection on the specific religious reason and more faced with the rejection of our 'lifestyle' for any manner of other reasons. If we do not bother with this, it may in the future, leave many others to suffer.

    Again in agreement with Wendy these are people, "completeley invested in their life without the responsibility of ethical decisions." My opinion is that a rational argument is not possible because such people do not operate from a rational or logical basis but from 'beliefs' - which can be pretty much anything and are pretty much unchallengeable.

    How for instance can you contest my 'belief' that yellow is the nicest colour? My belief isn't derived from any rationale or progressive logic or analysis, that I can use to convince another of, it is a 'belief' that has arisen subjectively within me - and many people are subjective.

    Quoting liberally from a review of the book, "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World", by Harry Browne, I think the following is valid advice on how one might proceed,

    Introduction
    In his superb classic How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, Harry Browne defines freedom as living your life as you want to live it. He claims that you can enjoy a high degree of freedom right now. He indicates that:
    "Hoping to be free, many people engage in continual social combat — joining movements, urging political action, writing letters to editors and Congressmen, trying to educate people. They hope that someday it will all prove to have been worthwhile.

    But as the years go by they see little overall change. Small victories are won; defeats set them back. The world seems to continue on its path to wherever it’s going. Until they die, the hopeful remain just as enslaved as they’ve always been.

    The plans, the movements, the crusades — none of these things has worked. And so the unfree man continues to dream, to condemn, and to remain where he is.

    There must be a better way…

    Fortunately, there is such a way…

    There’s a way that depends entirely upon what you choose to do. You can live your life as you want to live it — no matter what others decide to do with their lives."

    By trying to change others in order to become free you’re always trying to do something out of your control. On the other hand, you can use methods to free yourself that are completely under your control.

    There are two basic reasons why most people remain enslaved:

    1. They’re unaware of the many options and alternatives available to them;
    2. They accept without challenge certain assumptions that restrict their freedom.

    Harry calls these assumptions traps. As long as you don’t challenge these assumptions, they can keep you enslaved.

    If you want to increase your freedom, Harry Browne’s How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World is must reading. I don’t know of any other book that even comes close to providing you with such powerful self-liberating information. Here I can only present you with a brief overview.

    Traps
    Identity Trap #1:The belief that you should be someone other than yourself. You need to be true to yourself. Find out who you are; be yourself; do things your own way.
    Identity Trap #2:The assumption that others will do things the way you would. You can’t control others, but you can control how you deal with them. Harry Browne says, "you have tremendous control over your life, but you give up that control when you try to control others."
    Intellectual Trap: The belief that your emotions should conform to an intellectually preconceived standard. Emotions are best regarded as signals that tell you how you’re doing. (For the most powerful techniques to achieve emotional control, see Report #TL12: How to Achieve Emotional Control.)
    Emotional Trap: The belief that you can make important decisions when you’re feeling strong emotions.
    Morality Trap: The belief that you must obey a moral code created by someone else. In order to become more competent (and free) you need to strengthen your understanding of the cognitive links between your actions and the consequences you produce. Morality is basically a set of very general rules concerning what to do and what not to do, generally involving large consequences. Blindly using someone else’s moral code, tends to reduce your competence, because it prevents the forming of proper cognitive links between actions and consequences. To be free you need to create your own moral code.
    Unselfishness Trap: The belief that you must put the happiness of others ahead of your own. A world of maximum value is a function of the total of maximum individual value. You know yourself and what you value far better than you know others and what they value. Therefore, you are much more competent to increase your own value than that of others. So, maximum value is achieved by each individual maximizing his or her own personal value.
    Because we live in an "expanding-pie" world, it’s possible to maximize personal value while at the same time adding to the value of others. We maximize personal value by creating values for others to freely choose. The assumptions that "selfishness" and "greed" are evil need to be questioned. I recommend two books: The Virtue of Selfishness by Ayn Rand and The Art of Selfishness by David Seabury. Richard Bach, author of Jonathan Livingston Seagull, wrote this testimonial to How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World:
    "THE GREATEST GIFTS ARE GIVEN BY THE TRULY SELFISH. FROM THIS MAN’S LOVE OF FREEDOM, THEN, HAS COME THIS BOOK, A GIFT OF POWER AND OF JOY FOR WHOEVER YEARNS TO BE FREE."


    Isn't the attempt to make someone 'understand' really an attempt to 'change' them. Perhaps that's where the problem lies.
    • 112 posts
    October 19, 2006 7:34 PM BST
    Wendy and Ann.
    I agree with you both, well put.
    However Ann, I might draw you to the linkage betwen "understand" and "observation". Most attempts to change people are surely a result of lack of understanding, usually acompanied by lack of observation?
    Just a thought....might have mis-read you x
    love and light
    heavy haul tonight
  • October 25, 2006 11:50 AM BST
    My answer to those with religious arguments is "God made me this way, I don´t know his reasons, but he must have some". Would you recommend to a badly disformed person not to accept healing because of religious reasons? Must a crippled stay crippled, because God wants it?
    I don´t think God wants it. God wants us to heal ourselves, to find our own way...under the protection of his angels.
    I can feel their protecting wings above me.

    Laura
    • Moderator
    • 2463 posts
    August 13, 2006 6:25 AM BST
    I'm there, in a certain way.

    When i was first kicked out I lived with that friend of mine who is a Mormon chaplain. He thought sending me these goofball missionaries` who were fresh out of college, would help me out. Even now, I still have to tell him "You'll never understand this." Granted, he is not a fundamentalis per se, but he does let his religion cloud (guide?) his statements.

    As I mentioned before, and wrote in my song "Holding Hands Alone," I did have a best friend who indeed turned her back on me. I used to consider this woman to be a best friend, and she's even one of my daughter's many godparents. I used to rely on her so much, and for spiritual advice. Once she knew about me she made it clear she did want anything to do with me. She thought a trip to a priest would cure me. Wait for it. Besides, I didn't realize I had a disease.

    As for your Mom, since I don't know her I can't say what she might/might not do. Right now just give her some time. Don't push the situation, but certainly don't deny who you are. The only thing I could suggest is to let her know you are the same person she always knew, just, perhaps, with a few modifications.

    I'd write more but I finally got off work and am about to pass out from exhaustion on my keyboard.

    I wish you the best.

    Mere
    • Moderator
    • 2463 posts
    August 13, 2006 6:30 AM BST
    Sara said "The only thing I would try to do is not challenge the bible and it teachings but try to reinforce the forgivingness of your Jesus Christ and only let them with out sin cast a stone. "

    While I agree with Sara whole-heartedly, in my experiences quoting the Bible to a fundamentalist only causes more arguments because they will counter with another quote, or tell you that your interpretation is incorrect. My friend did that all the time. He was talking out of his arse, to be certain, and I let him know it.

    Being a Buddhist/Hindu/Catholic has its advantages because I can draw upon several sets of scriptures! Trust me, nothing annoys a right wing fundamentalist more than someone who knows the Bible better than they do!

    But I do NOT mean this as a statement on Mercede's mom. As I said, this is from my experiences. Others may, and will, be different.
    • Moderator
    • 2463 posts
    August 13, 2006 2:09 PM BST
    Frances has a good point. Did your mother in fact bring religion into this? What was her reaction? What sort of things did she say, or has she just been cool towards you?

    I hope this works out for you.
    • 24 posts
    October 18, 2006 9:48 AM BST
    Yikes!! Fundamental Christians make me want to smack myself over the head with a frying pan. When I first went off to college, I was a divinity student (STOP laughing!!) and I was actively trying to pray these terrible feelings away.

    As a result of this, you can imagine that about 90% of my friends tore out of my life so fast, they left skid marks. One particular letter sent by a former friend said something like "If I accept what you are doing, I accept sin into my life." Where does it talk about changing genders in the Bible exactly?

    I think you need to really listen to the person you are talking to. You need to really react on your feet and keep up. I agree that you shouldn't try to fight bible verses with bible verses, you only get into trouble that way.

    Show your religious friends or family your heart. Be vulnerable and open. Show them your tears, show them your pain. Talk about how scared you were that they would no longer be in your life.

    The only little Christian chestnut I'd use would go something like this: God is never wrong and he made me like this, so there is nothing wrong with me. I'm exactly who I'm supposed to be.

    I wish everyone luck who is trying to work something out with loved ones. Be aware that to some people, Christians or not, have a closed-minded opinion about transgendered people and those people will never accept you.

    I wish you luck and just be prepared for an argument.

    *hugs*

    Zoey
    • 2573 posts
    October 19, 2006 4:55 AM BST
    Why bother? Fundamentalists do not exist in a world of reason. They have their literal fantasy (based on a mistranslated version of the origional books of the bible) and are completely invested in their life without the responsibility of ethical decisions. Some clown tells them what to think. I wouldn't even both to deal with such a person. They are very unlikely to change, no matter how important you are to them and they are to you. I'd rather try to convert an avid Communist to Democracy.
    • 2573 posts
    October 20, 2006 5:33 AM BST
    Very interesting, Ann. I may take a look at some of those books.