In her post, SEEKING COUNSELING Robyn raises a question very worthy of discussion which I'd like to restate for the purposes of discussion as,

"Does conversation every become counselling?"

I think it's worthy of discussion for the following reasons,
a) It is germane to any 'conversation' held in the Trannyweb Chat that extends beyond pleasantries,
b) It allows us to establish consensus on when a conversation has - if ever - become more than that, and caution and thought is warranted.
c) Robyn has, in her post and subject to her clarification, suggested that some parties might be engaged in counselling - wittingly or unwittingly - and with 'intention' warranting the same caution as one might give to the 'prurient'.

As a starting point for the discussion I'd like to offer the following personal perspectives;
a) I just assume that the members here are people of goodwill and good intent.
b) I assume that anything I hear or read here, or offer or receive is no more nor less than well-intentioned conversation and support.
c) This is a 'for entertainment only' site.

The last point requires clarification. If I may, an example. I occasionally attend public symposiums at the Perimeter Institute for Quantum Physics in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada. Stay with me on this. At these symposiums I hear and learn about things from the most authoritative people in the world. They are, quite simply, the definitive authority of their given subject. Notwithstanding that, what I learn I learn 'for entertainment only'. There is no expectation - within any conceivable reason - that I will take such information and act directly on it. (I don't even know where to find a black hole.) So, 'for entertainment only' does not denegrade anyone or their achievements.

Some other questions that might fall out of this discusion are,

1) Has anyone received what they perceived as counselling?
2) Has anyone presented themselves in such a way as to suggest they are offering counselling?
3) Is anyone looking for counselling here?

I want to be very careful about the terms of reference for this discussion. For example, can any of the following statements be construed as counselling,

"I really think you should talk to someone."
"I take premarin."
"Progesterone will give your breasts a better shape."
"Oh, you really should try going out. It's so much fun."
"Why do you feel that way?"
"I wouldn't do that if I were you."

It is my opinion - for emphasis, my opinion - that in trannyweb the above is only conversation and that the membership considers it such and nothing more notwithstanding that the same questions might - for emphasis, might - be counselling in the office of an acredited practitioner.

Lasly, it's an intellectual discussion but take it where you may.

Joni. You have provided a wonderfully succinct and clearer statement of what I was trying to say.

Oh, and you DO look fabulous!

**sighs**

Intelligence? Common Sense? Do those even exist anymore?

**grins, then gets serious**

Ann, you've hit on a good point. Joni, you've clarified that point. We all need to be careful (and that includes me, moreso) about offering advice unsolicited. (There are some forums, such as Tranny Psych, where advice can be asked for and given. That's why it's there.)

ANY advice--solicited or not--should be regarded as just that: advice. I've seen some great advice, and some stuff that is just so wrong it hurts. Common sense and careful, logical thought should preface any advice given...or taken. Lives can be ruined by taking bad advice.

Thanks for this thread!

Luv 'n hugs,

Dr. Mina Sakura

Hi, I don't know if this is entirely relevant but it's interesting. I had always been led to believe that coming out as openly gay would be a liberating experience and had been, advised or counselled, by friends to this effect. So in the office I worked at the time I did just that. No big announcement I just told my colleagues discreetly as I went along. Not that I needed to because it was soon the talk of the office. It was a terrible decision. It changed the dynamic of my relationship with everyone. I was no longer an individual but the gay in the office and was defined as such. It wasn't long until paranoia set in and I thought there was a whispering campaign against me. There was no evidence for this and people were neither cruel nor abusive towards me. They were, however, cautious in what they said and certain topics were simply not discussed. The men were visibly nervous in my company and the women suddenly started to treat me as if I were irrelevant. I learned some important lessons from this experience. Firstly, why should I feel obliged to announce my sexuality to people; secondly, when taking the advice of others always take yourself into account. Try to understand yourself, how you will feel, how you will react. Advice may well be honestly proferred and with the best intentions at heart but the person giving it isn't you.

Hi, I don't know if this is entirely relevant but it's interesting. I had always been led to believe that coming out as openly gay would be a liberating experience and had been, advised or counselled, by friends to this effect. So in the office Iworked at the time I did just that. No big announcement I just told my colleagues discreetly as I went along. Not that I needed to because it was soon the talk of the office. It was a terrible decision. It changed the dynamic of my relationship with everyone. I was no longer an individual but the gay in the office and was defined as such. It wasn't long until paranoia set in and I thought there was a whispering campaign against me. There was no evidence for this and people were neither cruel nor abusive towards me. They were, however, cautious in what they said and certain topics were simply not discussed. The men were visibly nervous in my company and the women suddenly started to treat me as if I were irrelevant. I learned some important lessons from this experience. Firstly, why should I feel obliged to announce my sexuality to people; secondly, when taking the advice of others always take yourself into account. Try to understand yourself, how you will feel, how you will react. Advice may well be honestly proferred and with the best intentions at heart but the person giving it isn't you.

I was beaten up in the street by someone who knew me. I guess that counts as mistreatment and abuse. It is also a good example of how your fears can be misplaced. It pays to be a mistrustful old bitch, though in my case trollope might be more apt. Just don't let these things harden your heart. Iwas ill-advised on that occassion to, but that's another story. Love xxx

Hi Joni, I didn't mention the assault in any barbed way. Actually I was quite badly beaten and I had never encountered that intensity of hatred before. My abiding memory being the goading of his friends. It was a cowardly attack from behind, initially at least. But you are right in what you say, it feels worse now than it did at the time. It occurred three years ago and I had never mentioned it to anyone who wasn't present at the time until I wrote about in my blog which I hoped would be cathartic and it was, Funny how it is easier to speak to strangers, even hopefully, sympathetic ones. I know I'm not the same person I was, and that's sad. More reflective than before and suffering from a complete breakdown in trust. Never mind, I'm still here and I won't go away. Try not to whinge too much and I have tried and trusted ways of dealing with my demons. Love xxx

Let's not confuse

COUNSELLING - advice; opinion or instruction given in directing the judgment or conduct of another.

with

THERAPY - the treatment of disease or disorders, as by some remedial, rehabilitating, or curative process: speech therapy

Both can be either amateur or professional and both can vary in their value range. Still, you often get what you pay for. Even a trainied idiot is better than the same idiot untrained. A talented amateur can be more help htan a trained monkey.

Hi Ann-

I just want to jump in to say that I agree with your post and would like to add a little to your point notated as "a)", I also assume that not only are the members here well meaning but that they are all of at least normal intelligence and that all are at least nominally adults. This is perhaps an arguable assumption, but if we can take that as a given, then I would hope most members would be able to distinguish between advice meant to help and encourage us in the issues that we face each day as transgendered people and advice which can have a profound effect on our lives.

Personally, I am as prone to self deception as anyone can be under certain circumstances, for instance when looking in the mirror ("Oh my gosh I look so hot in this outfit."), and am more than happy to agree with anyone who even vaguely seems to endorse what I already believe ("Oh yes, honey, dressing like a callgirl is so in this season!") But I also know that a fashion faux pas is vastly different than taking a step such as deciding to take hormones sans a Dr's direction or deciding to spend my sons college money on FFS. Hopefully, I don't disengage my brain, at least not completely, when I slip into a pair of scanties.

Like you and Robyn and all the other girls, I hope that no one here would ignorantly, or Goddess forbid, maliciously, counsel someone into doing something like coming out to family and friends or taking any sort of irreversible step without thinking long and hard about it and utilizing the help of a professional counselor who is knowledgeable about TG/TS issues. But I also feel that sharing life experiences and knowledge we may have gleaned through various resources is legitimate part of what TW and other support sites are all about. We just need to sort through what we hear here and use our intelligence and common sense to decide what to take with us and what to leave.

Hugs...Joni

Hi Porscha-

Thank you for sharing your experience, I applaud your courage in doing what you did, it must have taken a great deal of fortitude. And I certainly agree with you said about it being "liberating" to come out, perhaps it is, to some extent, but it has a price. Speaking strictly for myself, there has been a certain sense of relief, if that's the word, at having come out to certain close friends and family members and no longer having to dissemble with them, but once you do, as has been pointed out in disussion after discussion here, it is out of your hands. How they react and how they treat you after that, whether openly or subtly, is a toss up.

No matter how open and tolerant people profess themselves to be, and they may actually be that way, or try hard to be, there is a deep and gut level reaction to those who are "other". At least you have apparently not been openly discriminated against or mistreated, but certainly, as you said, it has changed how people perceive you and not necessarily for the good.

Taking others' advice about coming out is something you have to judge carefully for yourself and your own situation. I have several friends, whom I know really are my friends and who care deeply about me, urge me to just "go ahead and do it", ie, just live my life the way I want 24/7. And while I know they have my best interests at heart and want me to be happy, the distrusting and cynical part of me also wonders if they say such things just to see what sort of sensation it would be in our little town. I know that's not their motivation at all, but still I wonder. And there you have it, I have now come out as the mistrustful old bitch I really am.<lol>

Hugs...Joni

Oh my gosh, Porscha, I'm so sorry, that's horrible. When I said you hadn't been abused I was only going by what you had said in your post about your workplace. Being assaulted and beaten by someone you know because of who you are is so awful. I hope you weren't hurt too badly, at least not physically, the other sort of pain goes deeper.

Hugs...Joni