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STOP "REAL ID" NOW!!!!

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  • The Real ID act is legislation intended to establish a national database and a national ID card in an effort to further restrict our civil rights. In particular, it will have devastating effects on transgender people seeking to change their name and status on their identification documents. It represents an unacceptable invasion of privacy, and seeks to make a change of name or status much more difficult than it already is.

    It is expensive and unnecessary. We already have a national ID document. It's called a passport. This is just ill conceived and will cause problems for all Americans, not just transgender people.

    While initial attempts to enact Real ID have been defeated, it is now being snuck into the immigration legislation being debated and possibly voted on RIGHT NOW in the Senate. It is only one of numerous unacceptable aspects of this "immigration reform." Border security is important, but not at the cost of our civil rights.

    It is essential that we act without delay to let our senators know that Real ID is unacceptable. DO NOT PROCRASTINATE! FOLLOW THIS LINK IMMEDIATELY TO HAVE YOUR OPINION FAXED IMMEDIATELY TO YOUR SENATE REPRESENTATIVE! THIS BILL WILL GO TO A VOTE MAYBE AS SOON AS TOMORROW! (JUNE 27)

    ACT NOW....FOLLOW THIS LINK:

    http://unrealid.com/action.html
      June 26, 2007 4:26 PM BST
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  • I am not trying to pick a fight with you Robyn.... But I thought a bit about this and I can't see this as something bad in any way. I think maybe I am missing your point but why is it so bad?

    I figure that ID cards are there to identify someone and the easier that is, the better for everyone. How is it an invasion of anyones privacy? I mean, you still have to identify yourself, why not make it as easy as possible?
    Everyone accepts the same ID card, no need for more than one... sounds good to me.

    Also, if you want a name change, wouldn't it be better having to change it on as few places as possible? I have no idea how things work in the US but having ID's with different names on them isn't legal were I live and I kind of understand why...

    I'm not trying to pick a fight with you but I don't really understand what the problem is...
      June 26, 2007 7:07 PM BST
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  • There is a plan to introduce ID cards here. And why not, I have nothing to hide. If it can reduce crime in any way, shape or form, good. We are already indentifiable in so many ways, why not have one carried with you?

    BTW, not everyone has the passport you mention. I presume yours is in the name of Robyn, and marked 'F'?

    Sue.
    Sue. X Psychiatrists are like the eunuch in the harem. They know what transvestism is, they can describe it, they can demonstrate it, but they cant actually explain it!
      June 26, 2007 8:06 PM BST
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  • The Real ID act is in direct conflict with the Health Information Privacy Protection Act, which currently ensures the confidentiality of the medical records of all Americans, which would, under the Real ID Act, be open to access by numerous government agencies that have no business accessing this information and as such, is an invasion of privacy.

    Further, this is an unnecessary boondoggle, as we already have a system in place for the identification of US citizens. It's called a passport, and every American should possess one.

    I apologize that I did not post this notice in the USA forum, where it belongs, as it is of no concern to citizens of other countries. Transgender people who live in more benign and enlightened locations have little or no concept of the ignorance and open hostility that exists in the US toward trans people. I would like to re-emphasize the appeal to the AMERICAN members of the site to participate in the political process, and follow the link noted in my original post.
      June 26, 2007 10:13 PM BST
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  • Robyn. Both of us were only pointing out that in our opinion some form of ID card is a good idea. I only imagine it as an ID, nothing more.
    I certainly realised that you were referring to something specific to the USA when referring to the Real ID act about which I have no knowledge at all.

    I find it interesting to hear about this type of thing, if only to compare it to our own. From such I can see that the grass is not always greener.

    It is was, for instance a surprise to know that all US citizens should possess a passport. I was previously under the impression that many citizens did not travel beyond the borders, so would not require one.

    And it is enlightening that the 'Land of the Free' is not so at all.

    I have gradually become more and more aware that the place promoting itself as progressive, forward thinking and liberal is nothing of the sort, but apparently has it's head so far up it's own tight ass it it two faced.

    Maybe they can learn something from the rest of the world after all. We wouldn't charge much, but need to charge something to make you feel at home.

    It is not my intention or desire to offer insult to any individual, but about a system which I see as flawed. I do not promote one system above another either, my own has many faults as well. I do think we are moving forward, while our transatlantic cousins seem to be moving backwards.

    I could be wrong!

    Sue.
    Sue. X Psychiatrists are like the eunuch in the harem. They know what transvestism is, they can describe it, they can demonstrate it, but they cant actually explain it!
      June 26, 2007 10:59 PM BST
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  • Currently, in most parts of America, it might as well be illegal to be transgender. Fortunately, we have January 20, 2009 to look forward to in the hope that the present religious right wing administration will be replaced with one that is at least a little more enlightened.

    But just to place into perspective the general social climate, in the US on average, one transgender person is brutally murdered per month for no other reason than that they are transgender. Just so that you don't get the impression that these incidents occur only in isolated rural areas, during a single month in 2006, 3 of those murders were committed in Washington, DC, our nation's capital. And let's not forget Gwen Arujo, who was raped and beaten to death in California.

    More enlightened administration notwithstanding, we've plainly a long way to go here.
      June 26, 2007 11:34 PM BST
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    Robyn this is no worse than your SSI number. Which can trace our life back from your first job to today.
    I've been to 6 sites looking for what you say & I can't find anything on a real news site that would scare me. The ID I have to have to get one is the same ID I need to get a drivers license.
    Why should I have a passport I'm not going anywhere.

    Robyn please don't be mad at me I respect your opinions very much. I just need more proof.
    <p>Karen Brad</p>
      June 26, 2007 11:44 PM BST
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  • Dear Robyn,
    Sent a fax to my senators opposing REAL ID. At least we agree on something.
    Regards,
    Bennie Lee
      June 27, 2007 12:25 AM BST
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  • The Real ID act goes hand in hand with another policy proposed under Homeland Security legislation, the Social Security Administration Gender no-match policy. Information concerning this can be found at:
    http://nctequality.org/Is[...]tch.asp

    Details of how the Real ID act affects transgender people can be viewed here, about halfway down the page, in an article describing the original passing and signing into law of the Real ID act.
    http://nctequality.org/news.asp
    Basically, what's happening now under the guise of immigration reform, is the acceleration of enactment of the Real ID act, in an effort to circumvent efforts by opponents to repeal the law, which was set to be fully implemented by 2009. Essentially, this creates further obstacles to people in transition who need to change their gender marker on their ID documents.

    None of this is intended to specifically hinder transgender people, but the effect is still an unnecessary hassle, and inconsistent with the Health Information Privacy Protection Act.

    OK, so maybe some people would rather not participate in the political process. If that's the case, I suggest that any transgender person who intends to file a name change petition or change their gender marker do so right away before it becomes way more difficult to do. I know I intend to.

    Also, with regard to obtaining a passport, it's not necessary to have the intent of travelling abroad to get a passport. Fact is, it's a more durable substitute for a birth certificate for proof of citizenship when filing an I-9 form with a new employer, obtaining a driver's license, social security card, or even opening a bank account. As long as the infrastructure already exists for this standardized national form of ID, why not require American citizens to obtain one, rather than setting up a whole new cumbersome beaurocracy? Are there really that many krispy kreme eatin' semi literate clerk types in need of work?

    Well done, Bennie! Encouraging to see that there are those who are willing to participate in Democracy.
      June 27, 2007 12:34 AM BST
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  • Koala,

    For a moment, imagine a cheerful little fella named Adolph Hitler.

    Now imagine someone coming up to you on the street, any street, any day, any time and demanding "Your papers please."

    Our government guaranteed we would net have a form of national ID when it created the SS card. We are strenuously objecting to it's defacto use as an identificaton number. In fact colleges were using it for that and you could not attend without revealing it. We got laws passed to reverse that trend. The price of Liberty is Eternal Vigilence. It may seem like nothing until the day you find any government representative can walk up and demand it from you at any time for any reason. We won't even let them nationalize our driver's licenses if we can stop it

    http://www.eff.org/deepli[...]332.php

    It's called States Rights here and it was conceived to prevent this country being ruled by central power the way the Georgian British Empire was. The social/cultural dynamics and traditions of countries differ. Ours requires we insist on our civil rights not being abridged. It is almost a religious-level of commitment for many Americans to ensure The Constitution's intent is preserved. Organizaions are continually monitoring our own government. These organizaions have stopped unconstitutional monitoring of Emails by the FBI and called our President to answer for violating our written laws and justifying it as necessary for "national security". THAT is always the excuse that dictators make, just before they take over completely. You may find this uncomfortable to read, but this site covers a lot of privacy issues that many of us are unaware of.

    http://www.privacyrights.[...]ist.htm

    Here in the US, many of us see the proliferation of police controlled anti-crime cameras, in the UK, with trepedation....despite the fact that we have many NON police controlled cameras here. This is related to our feelings about security in our homes from government intrusions.

    Yes, we ARE paranoid.....but they ARE out to get US.


    "The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance."---John Philpot Curran, Lord Mayor of Dublin----Speech before the Privy Council, 10 July 1790; in The Speeches of the Right Honorable John Philpot Curran, ed. Thomas Davis (1847), pp. 94-95.

    "A live lived in fear is a life half-lived." - Native American proverb. "Inside every man is a woman who was drowned in testosterone before birth". - Wendy Jeanette Larsen "It is better to be hated for what you are than loved for what you're not." - Andre Gide (French writer)
      June 27, 2007 5:12 AM BST
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  • Well put, Wendy. Thanks.
      June 27, 2007 12:53 PM BST
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    After doing some more reading & with what Wendy said(good friend). I have filled out the e-mail & sent it off.
    A national ID is going to happen. But we must limit what information can be found with it.
    Every person allready has a file in Washington under thier SSI number. That is supposed to be limited.
    I realy don't want my life on the back of a card, not all of it anyway.
    <p>Karen Brad</p>
      June 27, 2007 1:15 PM BST
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  • Thanks Karen. Let's all keep those faxes flowing to our senators.
      June 27, 2007 1:56 PM BST
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  • Quote "For a moment, imagine a cheerful little fella named Adolph Hitler.

    Now imagine someone coming up to you on the street, any street, any day, any time and demanding "Your papers please." "

    I totally agree that the above is not a situation anyone wants to see again.

    But, and bear in mind I come from the place where things were ruled centrally, as it was described earlier in this thread, and where we are to be carrying ID in the not too distant future, on a central database. There has to be a middle ground somewhere, acceptable to both government and citizen alike, which will assure the security and safety of everyone.

    The alternative could be the total opposite of the quoted opening.
    Hypothetical and extreme maybe, but the bottom line?

    "There are no restraints, no-one is obliged to be accountable, or to have to give any information about themselves.

    Now imagine a cheerful little character from the middle east, walks onto a plane, no papers required, and carefully guides it into a skyscraper"

    It's called anarchy.

    My sincere apologies to any upset or offended at my scenario. I used it in the same way the reminder about Hitler in Europe was used, to demonstrate a possible result of takings things to an extreme.

    Sue.
    Sue. X Psychiatrists are like the eunuch in the harem. They know what transvestism is, they can describe it, they can demonstrate it, but they cant actually explain it!
      June 27, 2007 11:12 PM BST
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    Agreed Sue both are scare tactics & a bit extream. I don't think the first will ever happen realy. Unless the second come to be. I don't believe some of the things I've read as to what the goverment will be looking at.
    <p>Karen Brad</p>
      June 28, 2007 12:19 AM BST
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  • I would like to emphasize again that a centralized national form of identification document already exists for the purpose of proving US citizenship in the form of the passport, which doesn't invade the privacy of American citizens, transgender or not, in any way. Why do we require a database that contains a complete profile of every American and can access such information as our medical history?

    Rather than establish yet another expensive, inefficient and cumbersome federal beaurocracy destined to inconvenience our citizens, and invade their privacy needlessly, why not just require that all US citizens obtain a passport by some specified date? This would satisfy border security concerns as well as provide a means for enforcement.

    Basically, this whole "immigration reform" business is just ill conceived and isn't really immigration reform at all. Personally, I feel that the real solution would be to bring our military home from Iraq and deploy them along our southern border. If we start shooting first, and treat this as the invasion it really is, as so many other countries do at their borders, perhaps people will take our immigration laws more seriously. But as long as Dubyah and his corporate pals have a vast and willing cheap workforce streaming across the border, "immigration reform" will remain just what it is...a joke.

    In the meantime, the associated legislation, just like the "Homeland Security Act," just provides a means of implementation for the Bush/Cheney agenda to wipe their butts with the Constitution.
      June 28, 2007 12:33 AM BST
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    Well you just lost me.
    I will not panic or get angry over something that hasn't happend. Nor do I see any proof that it will.
    <p>Karen Brad</p>
      June 28, 2007 3:10 AM BST
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  • The British COULD have made accomodations with Hitler and stayed at peace. They could have surrendered and not fought or died at places like Dunkirk and London. They chose to fight, abroad and at home for THEIR liberties and rights. In war or "peace" you either fight, remain prepared to fight, or surrender. I know this because a blockbuster from Berlin almost ensured that I never was.


    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. " -Thomas Jefferson.

    What it means is that there is a price to be paid, over and over, for the freedom and rights we enjoy under our form of government. If that means airplanes crashing into buildings.....so be it.

    "Those who would trade liberty for safety deserve neither safety or liberty." -Ben Franklin

    We have passports to travel outside the US. We should not have to HAVE a passport UNLESS we do so. We should not have to CARRY one in the US. I don't have to show my driver's license UNLESS I am driving. I don't have to carry it UNLESS I am driving. THAT is the issue here. You would do well to insist on the same in the UK.

    I"ve had an FBI file since I was a child. I don't object to this or the fact that they have my prints on file. It was for national security. I had a pass to enter and remain on US military installations where there were nuclear weapons. I did not have to carry it off-base. I did not have to submit to this if I did not want to enter that secure installation. It came in handy the day I and my friend faced two military police armed with loaded M-16's becusue we were just looking INTO a secure area. It was necessary.

    A national ID is NOT necessary. It is uneccessarily invasive. If the price of not carrying one is risking dying in a terrorist attack....that is a price I have always been willing to pay to protect my countries Constitutional guarantees. If we give that up, why bother to fight. We will already have given up those precious liberties that so many thousands of Americans have died for. I would rather die than live like that. These are not just words. I have fought narco-terrorists who were unable to take away my rights or life at gunpoint. I don't just speak the words I live the life. I don't expect everyone to be able to do that but....

    [i]"Those who would trade liberty for safety......"[i/]
    "A live lived in fear is a life half-lived." - Native American proverb. "Inside every man is a woman who was drowned in testosterone before birth". - Wendy Jeanette Larsen "It is better to be hated for what you are than loved for what you're not." - Andre Gide (French writer)
      June 28, 2007 6:37 AM BST
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    I think it's going to happen. The fight is to keep it under controll so that private info can not be read.
    <p>Karen Brad</p>
      June 28, 2007 11:01 AM BST
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  • I agree with Wendy that even the requirement to hold a passport is excessive, however, my point was that rather than establish this whole national ID database linked ID document, and the beaurocracy necessary to facilitate it, the more efficient approach would be to require that citizens obtain passports. This system is already in place and already provides the means of proof of citizenship.

    In fact, when I lived in West Virginia, it is one of 11 states that already require proof of citizenship for the purpose of obtaining a driver's license. Documents required for this are a birth certificate, naturalization documents (carta verde) or a passport, even if you already possess a driver's license from another state. As a result, the incidence of illegal aliens in West Virginia, and I'll wager, in the other 10 states with this requirement, is very low, indeed.

    Proof that the passport/birth certificate approach is already working for this purpose, without having to access any further information about people. If the issue is whether or not people applying for driver's licenses or other services are American citizens, well, there's the means of proof, and that's all the DMV or other agencies need to know.

    It would also not be necessary to carry one's passport at all times, any more than it's necessary to carry a birth certificate at all times. Only when needed to provide proof of citizenship for the purpose of obtaining a driver's license or other similar services requiring such proof.

    Unfortunately, this makes far too much sense to ever actually be implemented, so I still suggest that anyone interested in filing a name change petition or seeking a gender marker change had better get to it right away, before it becomes way more difficult to do so.
      June 28, 2007 11:51 AM BST
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  • You said a mouthful there Karen, in just a few words. "The fight is to keep it under control so that private information cannot be read. "

    That is the essence of the discussion in a nutshell.

    I do not know what is required to obtain a US passport, but here you need to provide virtually your life history, with proof of this, that and everything else. This is then compared to information already on databases. It is not, as far as I am aware, linked to medical records...yet!

    One day I would like to see one world, with people free to air their views, travel where their fancy takes them, under a benign central government...

    I believe it was called Utopia. It will not happen in my lifetime. Until nationalism is overcome, and religions can co-exist in harmony, there is no chance. But one can dream...

    Sue.
    Sue. X Psychiatrists are like the eunuch in the harem. They know what transvestism is, they can describe it, they can demonstrate it, but they cant actually explain it!
      June 28, 2007 5:57 PM BST
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  • Well, it appears that we can relax for a minute, anyway. Immigration reform, including the Real ID amendment, was defeated today, 46 - 53, thanks to the flood of messages via email, fax and post, and millions of phone calls to Senate representatives. Real ID wasn't the only flaw in this bill, so it was doomed to failure pretty much like the first version a few weeks ago. "Immigration reform" is largely considered dead until after 2008, but there is a poosibility that the White House and the few supporters of the bill might make another attempt.

    Thanks to all of you who faxed your opposition to Real ID to your Senators. Remember though, we need to remain vigilant and keep the pressure on these people, because they're likely to try and sneak this through at some later date, and we need to prevent this if we can.
      June 28, 2007 10:39 PM BST
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  • The time to oppose a military draft is when they try to institute mandatory draft registration....not when they send you your draft notice.

    The same holds true for mandatory carrying of national identification.
    "A live lived in fear is a life half-lived." - Native American proverb. "Inside every man is a woman who was drowned in testosterone before birth". - Wendy Jeanette Larsen "It is better to be hated for what you are than loved for what you're not." - Andre Gide (French writer)
      June 30, 2007 11:08 AM BST
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  • Why do you need an I.d card? Can someone please explain. I have a passport, a credit card, a birth certificate, a national insurance number, a driving licence, a bank account. I'm on the electoral register, I can provide utility bills. I have any number of ways of proving my identity. Just like most people. So why should a Government require that you have one. It certainly won't help prevent terrorism. A terrorist is unlikely to even apply for an I.d card let alone carry it around with him; and even if he does it's likely to be fake, just like the passports they use. So a nice little black market there then. I used to work in a DSS office where we weren't permitted to accept I.d cards from Italy and Portugal as forms of identification because of the massive fraud in I'd cards that had taken place, 500,000 had gone missing. It does, however, allow the Authorities to further erode your civil liberties. Something which the majority never truly see the disappearance of because it rarely effects them. It is minorities who are vulnerable. Wendy mentions Nazi Germany, well we know who suffered there. Jews were fully assimilated into German society prior to January 1933 and indeed the Nuremburg Laws of 1935/6. And it wasn't just Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, Seventh Day Adventists etc all suffered. I'm not suggesting that similar is going to happen here or in the States but as a minority ourselves we should never be complacent. I.d cards will increase the stop and search powers of the police and will lead to a situation where you can be criminalised simply for not carrying one. Also I've done nothing wrong why should I be obliged to prove who I am. I grew up at a time when the idea of the British having I.d cards was absurd, we would never put up with it, that was something the German's did. It seems that every terrorists outrage or suggestion of one is an excuse to further restrict our freedom. Governments should look more to moderate their own actions in the field of foreign affairs as a means of protecting their own people rather than oppress those minorities within their own society that don't exactly live free of fear as it is.
    Porscha
      July 1, 2007 6:47 PM BST
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  • I heartily agree, Porscha. The original rationalization behind "Real ID" was the prevention of terrorism, but when it got nipped in the bud as part of the "Homeland Security" Act, a 5,000 page bit of legislation that magically appeared just two days after 9/11 (hmmm), they attempted to integrate it into the "Immigration Reform" bill. Either way, whether for potential terrorists or illegal immigrants, counterfiet IDs are easy to come by, and big business here. Just ask any frat boy who wants to drink himself silly at age 18.

    And while we're on the subject of Nazi Germany, let's not forget who the first victims of Hitler's wrath were, LGBT people. Transgender people in particular were rounded up and sent to the camps in the Nazi effort to clean up Berlin, a haven for transgender folk in the 30's. It's been said before that those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it. A major part of the Bush/Cheney agenda has been to rewrite the Constitution of the United States of America to suit their needs, and they must be stopped. The overwhelming response of the American People in the effort to defeat "Immigration Reform" is a most encouraging sign of a return to the grass roots Democracy intended by the framers of our Constitution.
      July 1, 2007 8:07 PM BST
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