LOL Brina, you stole the "acting" or "being" part from me. I used it in my second or third post in this thread. I'm starting to feel better now because I only spend maybe 5 minutes on makeup, it's the darn hair that takes forever. And BTW, tomorrow I'm having my second laser facial hair treatment, yipee. OUCH!!!, lol, just practicing for tomorrow.

it matter? Actually I don't think I do and I never thought I have. I imagine to others I merely look like a small nancy boy in a dress which as a crude definition isn't entirely inaccurate. I know people stare, I don't know what they think, but I can guess. Some will find me attractive others will think me a pervert. There are a few for whom the sight of me will generate latent desires, some will feel frustration that they are unable to express themselves so, many will feel pity, a few blind hatred. Then there are the not infrequent times when I have almost been pushed to the ground, by accident of course. And I know every time I go out I am setting myself up as a willing victim, and I'm an easy person to victimise. I don't have the physical attributes that could serve as a deterrent and I am fully aware of my inability to effectively defend myself. So I rely upon a finely tuned sense of insouciance and empty bravado. Or to simplify, a big mouth laced with cynicism. This is the attitude I have had to adopt to pass in public, which I define as being allowed to go about my business unmolested. How would you define it and why is it important? Is it so that you can live without fear, free of embarrassment, unashamed of who you are. Do you think you really pass or do you just want to left alone? I pass as me, I wouldn't pass as one of the many gg's I come across everyday, but then I don't want to be them I want to be me. So all the time I am vulnerable to heartbreak and hurt. Whether be passing abuse from white van man, a giggle from the girls, whispers on street corners, the lover who wakes in the morning to discover I'm not the girl he went to bed with, or just a good old fashioned beating. So why do I do this? I don't have any choice in the matter. And in that sense alone it doesn't matter whether I pass or not. But I do want to be pretty and attractive. I have my femininity and nobody can take that away from me. In that sense I want to be noticed, I want to be stared at. I don't just want to be another gg. Just another coarse, badly dressed, unfeminine girl unappreciative of what they have been blessed with. I'd rather be me a thousands times over, whether I pass or simply appear absurd. I owe nothing to those who cannot appreciate me for who and what I am in all my dark perpetuity and kaleidoscopic glory.

I don´t care either any more what people think of me. There are sure cases when I have passed, be it to a gynecologist, a lover or a neighbour. But there are also other cases in my past.
Nowadays I have reached the point I really do not care any more. And in the most cases I might cause looks, being a very tall girl, but then it is over. Once a group of teenager boys got their eyes on me, I heard them whisper to each other, but then one of them said: "She´s not". And then they lost their interest on me.

Laura

I suppose right now I am still in that stage that trying to pass is important to me. I think it is because of the fear someone will harm me more than worrying over others laughing at me. My best day was when I walked past a couple young men and overheard them rate me an 8 on a 1-10 scale. I have also had men race to a door and hold it open for me. But I have also had those days the moment I climbed out of my car I heard people laughing. For those days I have to tell myself I have a right to be here and just go on with my business. I never go out without a purpose, I believe doing that sets you up for trouble. Having some sort of confidence tends to allow your bad days to be quickly forgotten.

It is, of course, important to pass but it is difficult to define what that means. I think acceptance is a better expression. I have never been referred to as sir in a shop or elsewhere, it has always been madam or miss, which I quite like. But I don't believe this is because I pass as a girl but rather because I seem like one. Quite often people can be confused by you and not wanting to offend simply do not know how to refer to you. It's really about attitude and the ability to leave no doubt for ambiguity. That you are not on your way to fancy dress party, having a bit of fun, or this is just something you like to do of a weekend. But rather the person they see before them is the real you. It's not an easy thing I know and you have to find your own way to it, but never be furtive and surreptitious, and never try to hide. I understand your concern about physical violence, that's something that will never go away. I was beaten up in the street quite badly but if it is any reassurance at all it was by someone I knew and had been at a party with earlier. I have never been attacked by a stranger, pushed a few times maybe, but never hurt. I believe there is more than an element of truth to the view that you are in greater danger from those you know And obviously now I have written these words I am destined for a beating and being called sir for the first time. Oh well, never mind.

I think sometimes we only see our old ourselves in a reflection and not necessarily what others see. We think we don't pass but it is us who is our biggest critics. Only when we get outed can we truly say we don't pass, because someone will always spot you if you look out of place, until then don't try to judge yourself. You have more than likely been accepted.

Gab -xx-

I want to thank all of you for sharing such personal emotions. This thread means a whole lot to me. I have been challenged with the notion that I care what people think about me. And, as a transsexual, I cannot be that way and keep any dignity about myself. This is a topic I wrestle with on a daily basis.

Only time will tell how well I will pass. I am 39 years old, and it has been almost 20 years since I lived full time as a female for over 3 years. Like Nikki said, money was always an issue. Unfortunately, the price of plastic surgery doesn't go down over time like that of say, a television. I would like to add here that here in Arizona just recently, a post-op was detected and lost her cool, and is in jail for exposing herself to prove she was a Woman by showing the results of her vaginoplasty.

Here's my plan, and I would like to know what all of you think about it. I plan on taking the hormones and remaining male in appearance, until such time that it becomes impossible to hide. I am not worried about clothes making me feminine. I can buy time by letting the hormones start working. Then, if and when my appearance starts to feminize noticeably, that would indicate it might be alright to start cross dressing. One thing that is heart breaking about the girl who lost her cool, is that if she had had FFS before the vaginoplasty, she might not be where she is. If I need to have FFS, it will be the first surgery that I have.

In my past, I was on hormones, and had electrolysis, and some minor facial surgery such as a trachea shave. I would honestly say that I passed 90% of the time. I didn't have trouble finding dates, and even getting acceptance from the men I met when I told them. But, it is a set up for a fall for many of us to think that we could get to the point where nobody can tell. I am 5'8" and was thin back thin, and fair complected. I had an exceptionally attractive face, comparable with gg. But, I do wear a large glove size. And, even though I had the trachea shave, it still can draw attention. Those were the only two things that really made me worry about being detected. But, as Porscha talked about so very eloquently, it was like they were taken by my attractive looks, and then the suspicious things made a minority of them wonder.

I am trying to get to the point of where all of you are. And, I think it is happening to all of us collectively. Why should we live our lives in fear that someone may suspect? Our goal is to be happy whether we are a cross dresser or a transsexual. All the surgeries in the world can never give us what we need more than anything, and that is courage. That must come from within. I don't think I will be able to move forward in my transition until I can come to the point that I am immune to the sting of ridicule. I am an overly sensitive person about it. Here's something else that I use as a psychological defense mechanism to give me more courage. I consider it my yellow brick road. If my objective is to be happy, then that is the first priority. Passing becomes secondary. What is more important passing 100% of the time, or being happy? Fear can paralyze you. I know that it has me at times.

Also, I don't consider my quest to be one of becoming a "Woman". I rationalize that I will not be ultimately Man or Woman. I will be something completely different. I say that I will be a "feminine personality." Therefore, I don't have to worry about passing, if I am not trying to be a Woman, because they are not my competition. And, if Men hold me to the standard of passing as a Woman, then they are missing the point as well.

I think you just have to surround yourself by people that will love and be supportive of you. No one said this would be easy, but we don't have to make it harder by being hard on ourselves.

It's very interesting what you say, Karen. You have obviously given it considerable thought and are planning in some detail. I think as has been previously stated we cannot determine how other people see us and it's not really about passing as a woman. Rather it is about believing in yourself, being confident in who you are, and stepping out into the world as that person. We all fear ridicule, it's not nice to be laughed at and made fun of, and much worse of course. But in a way it's a backhanded compliment. We have the strength of character and determination to be who we really are when so many others haven't. Quite often the man, though I have to say its not always a man, who abuses you in the street is expressing not hatred but feelings of envy, frustration, and repressed physical attraction. I have been hit on by supposedly straight men who know full well who I am, because I don't pass as a woman but I am cute. These are the same men who would ridicule me to their friends and verbally insult me if they didn't get their way. I have never had to struggle with my femininity, I wrestle with my emotions. That's what I struggle to come to terms with. The fact that I can have the world in the palm of my hand one day and be unable to rise out of bed the next detracts from my femininity and retards my desire to be the real me. But I recognise this and I know it is the battle I have to win. So it's about coming to terms with yourself. To emerge as the person you really are when you are fully at one with yourself and be able to say take me or leave me. Many girls are hurt because they try to be what they are not. You take what you are and craft it. You musn't hide, you have to have the confidence to absorb the pain. People will always hurt you whether you are a man, a gg or a ts. People will always find something to pick on. I wish you all the best, Karen. We have all done amazing things and there are some remarkable people here. I think sometimes we forget that. We have so much to be proud of.

I think you are really on the right track Karen. My plan is very similiar to yours in that I have been on HRT now for 2 1/2 years. I'm doing laser facial hair removal now, have pierced ears and now have a woman's short style hairdo. Although I am living my life in guy mode, I find myself constantly aware of who I really am. Often I catch myself walking as a woman and wonder if anyone noticed, but when I consciously make the effort it often feels awkward. I think everyone is right in just being yourself makes you that much more passable. I think a good analogy is in a movie you can tell the difference between someone acting and someone roleplaying, are we trying to be someone else or are we that someone else.

I am a very sensitive person and because of that I am very much my own worst critic. I do believe physically I have good things to work with, but I still need to work on my confidence. Although no one ever says much about the obvious changes I have made, instead of fearing questions I now eagerly await comments, so I see that as progress. Who knows, maybe the reason I don't get the comments is because I appear normal with the changes. The otherside is that people may just not want to say anything bad. Is the glass half empty or half full. I think I will try and focus on the positive.

This is a very interesting thread. For me, its not about passing, its about wearing what i want, looking how i want with out the fear of attracting undesirable attention. I can walk around MK shopping centre and Mancs on a saturday afternoon but not in my own city. For me, I dont care about people who dont know me, but I am scared witless if someone knows my oldself and I become a laughing stock, if ya know what i mean. I guess this is primarily because my daughter and her mother do not know yet. This is something I am working towards. Once they know then I wont care who knows, least i will find out who my real friends are.

The biggest challenge for me was in myself. Now I have delt with my own feelings for the most part every time i step out of the front door i gain more experience and more confidence. The feeling of freedom is very invigorating. The beast has been let loose!!!

I went out on Saturday night because some old friends invited me. I can no longer pretent to be the person I was, he has gone forever now. So I decided to go androgenous. My old friends didnt say anything about my appearance, I guess they used to seeing in gothic attire. I got chatted up by loads of GGs, i was told I was very sensual and in touch with my feminine side and it was very refreshing to see compared to the usual pig headed grunts lol (thats how she refered to the men). One girl pointed out that I was the most feminine man she had ever met. I said I was TS which lead to further convo. The point is I didnt pass yet I was recognised for what I was and found to be very interesting to talk to.
Personally, I believe the majority of society dont care or are too busy to mind what people look like or behave.

Brina,
You seem to agree with part of my last post regarding "acting" versus being that person, but I do have a point to contend with you. A common stereotype of women is they take so long doing their makeup and hair, they also moan about their weight. Atleast in the U.S. where it is readily available, cosmetic surgery for women is a booming business. We call it "passing", what's the difference and isn't this a female trait anyways? What is so wrong about a desire to look your best? Yes we are all individuals, however I do believe we all want to fit in. I do believe some go to crazy extremes on all of this, but if it makes them happy don't you think their confidence level will be much higher which in the end will allow them to mix into society that much better?

Hey Brina,
I think we actually agree on most things regarding passing. I was only trying to convey that "passing" for some is similiar to GG's not being happy with the image they project and therefore go to great extents to improve their looks. Whether you or I agree with it, there are plenty of women who keep these plastic surgeons happy.

I am naturally opposed to labelling. But we all use it to define ourselves for the benefit of others. In my profile I described myself as gay, with a caveat, but I know that it is the 'gay' word that will define me. But what does that mean? That I have sex with people of the same gender as myself. Well I have also had sex with women which I suppose makes me bisexual. And if I was to marry a woman and have children am I then straight? Again does gay mean I'm camp, mince when I walk, am celebrity obsessed and in love with soft-furnishings and interior design. It is the same with the term transvestite which conjures up in the eye's of many a gruff man smoking a pipe whilst wearing a twin-set and pearls watching the rugby on television. Or someone who rummages through their wifes knicker draw in a state of heightened excitement. I don't have a problem with that but it doesn't describe me. It does, however, indicate the harm one single word can do. I have no say over who I am, I can, however, choose who I become. I intend to live full-time as a woman, I do not intend to transition. There are many reasons for this, my fear of drugs and surgery, my sexuality as I understand it, my emotional fragility and ability to cope with it. Also I know in my heart, as I have written elsewhere, that a mutually loving and affectionate relationship with another tgirl, where we could live as we are and not as we are supposed to be, would make me more complete than any transitioning ever would. Does this make me any less of a girl? So I suppose I live in that twilight world. But I'm a girl to me, and to those who are my friends and wish to love me. They have to accept that, so acceptance is the essence of our reality, even if it is reduced to the small circles in which we operate. To have the acceptance, understanding, and respect of anyone is priceless. We should avoid labelling if possible because it negates far more than it promotes. Rarely is it more than the sum of its parts. We are all sensitive, evolving people with issues to deal with and lives to lead. It is complicated and difficult at times which is why we should appreciate the common bond we all share here.

Porscha, I think you are very right when it come to labels. I have found that there seems to be a lot of snobbery in the T world. Shame really but it is what it is.

We all have our own opinions on whats acceptable or not when it comes to passing. Atfer all, we're all individuals and our individual opinions suit our personal requirements. Whether we have the ability to pass or not I believe its a matter of freedom of expression. I believe anyone who thinks they can 100% pass 100% of the time is opening themselves up to a whole lot of heartache. I dont think i would ever reach 100% passing so being realistic I will express myself in a way that makes me happy and content and as long as i am treated with the respect any human being deserves I will be fine. I just think thats a fairly realistic view.

It is interesting that you should focus so much on the physical and ignore the psychology that underpins it all. I wonder what drove you to make your decision to transition. It appears that you are implying that prior to transition we are all driven by our male sex steroids regardless of any hormonal imbalance. If that were the case then nobody would transition. I don't personally hold the view that anyone should have a special or privileged position in our community or indeed in society as a whole. I do not want this thread to spiral into an argument about the purity or otherwise of transsexuals or transvestites. So regardless of our personal views I would appreciate it if everyone is treated equal here.

I am disappointed in the direction this thread has headed. I am finished here.

LOL Dani, I believe one of those deleted threads was mine. I don't think Porscha had any of this in mind when she started the thread but they do have a way of altering direction. As I see it the basic principle of this thread is how important is it to pass. Obviously to each individual as well as each label under the TG spectrum it is different.

I don't believe Brina means anything bad separating transexual desires for passing vs CD and TV's. Brina has made some very good points based on her experience. Who are we kidding when we don't distinguish the differences in the TG spectrum. Some TS's may have an easier time than others both financially and in acceptance, but Brina is quite correct saying we pay an incredibly high price to change our lives so we can be the women we are. Just last night I chatted with a gal about how you lose your libido when on HRT and how for me sex rarely comes to my mind. But I also talked about how it effects my wife, the woman I love dearly. I still remember the first pill I dissolved under my tongue 2 1/2 years ago, as I put it in my mouth I said aloud I'm sorry to my wife, even though she wasn't there. It was something I had to do. There is far more to being TS than just popping a pill and having SRS, regular people don't fully understand us, and very likely most CD/TV's don't either.

I think Brina's comment about not understanding why CD's and TV's do what they do when they have no desire to be a woman but to remain male was maybe a little too controversial for this thread. Nevertheless I can say I agree with her, it would be hypocritical if I didn't, because it was me who was visciously attacked when I said the samething in the thread that was deleted. This site is for all transgendered, why should anyone be attacked for expressing their opinion. The topic of this thread is "Why should I care if I pass in public ..." not why should CD/TV's care if they pass in public. All and all I think everyone has stayed reasonably on topic.

Nikki I think you are wrong about this thread getting off topic. First off it is in the Passing in Public forum. Secondly if you reread Porscha's eleoquent description of how she sees passing as irrelvant in the way she enjoys expressing herself, then I think you will find most of the other posts to this thread describing how others see the importance or nonimportance of passing in their lives.

There have been minor disagreements in this thread but no outright attacks. Are you saying we should keep our opinions to ourselves? What then are we to talk about here, why have TW if you can't say anything? Everything said in this thread that provoked a negative reply was clarified, whose fault is it that someone maybe missed a post that cleared things up. I encourage anyone following this thread to reread all the posts from start to finish and not to take things out of context.

Now back to Porscha's post. I think if Porscha looks anything like her gorgeous picture, she should have few if any problems passing. Add to that the excitement of how she enjoys expressing herself, Porscha has got to be a fun gal to be around. She seems to know what she wants in life and that is great. Each of us has our ideas and do things the way we do for our own reasons. It is nice to hear many of the different reasons.

Thanks, Marsha, for your kind words. Yes that is me in the picture, I'm not sure about the gorgeous, that's certainly not how I see it. I know how divisive this issue can be and if anyone thinks I have been a little over-sensitive then it is a sensitivity learned from experience. I just tried to do the right thing and hope I will be forgiven for that. This is a site where we can help and support those, who like ourselves, are trying to come to terms with the person they really are in often very difficult circumstances. There are a great many good people here with kindness, understanding and love in their hearts. And no one group has a monopoly on that. I don't doubt either that some abuse this site and like to live out their fantasies here. But I don't see that as a problem if they neither harm or harass others. I don't feel we do ourselves any good by dividing amongst ourselves. There is far more that unites us. We have a common bond upon which we should build. We all know how harsh the world can be. And we shouldn't fool ourselves into believing we are accepted in society, we are acknowledged and tolerated, that can change. TW is a sanctuary to which we can return and feel at one with others free of the abuse and ridicule that comes with being who we are. This has been a great thread with many excellent posts. We are all individuals with different points of view and they have been expressed here with conviction and vigour. That's good, we prove everyday that we are more than the label society likes to give us. So lets discuss the thread and draw a line under any misunderstanding, and remember that we need one another more than we realise sometimes.

This thread very interesting for me. I am new from the closet and finding a realistic idea of passing at my stage is very important to me. It has been really good to listen to others thoughts regarding passing and also expressing my own thoughts too. I apologise if anyone found anything wrong with what I posted. Thanks to Porscha for starting this thread, I think you have some very wise words.

Porscha you are so right, you just have a wonderful way of expressing yourself with words. Yes we are a very diverse community. I find myself fascinated in the why's of others here at TW; from why do TA's fancy us, CD's and their interests, to other TS's like myself. I live in a city without any TG organization and tomorrow for the first time I will have lunch with another TS I met because of another gal here at TW. TW has been a lifesaver for me, a place I can come and talk about pretty much anything without my TS circumstances being an issue. I think lonliness is the biggest obstacle in our lives and being able to openly talk about things like your thread in a small way helps many of us.

It is hard and unrealistic to try and please everyone. You have a great thread going here and I think it has enlightened many minds. Sometimes it comes down to things we feel we just need to say, however right or wrong, saying it sure beats the lonliness we all know so well. I hope that I have not offended anyone in this thread, if I have I hope those offended ask for clarity because I mean no one bad feelings here.

Wow MA, I am especially sorry if anything I said offended you. So much can be left to interpretation in anything put into words. I know there had been some harsh statements made in this thread, but I felt most of those were later clarified. I don't want to call it a divide between groups in the TG community, but there are definitely differences. Again I am sorry if anything I said offended you or any other gal at TW.

What you say is very interesting. I know this to be true both in my social and professional life. Almost all the transsexuals I have known, and I have known many, made little or no effort to appear feminine. I have to admit to being shocked, surprised and a little saddened by this. I don't pretend to understand it. I can only imagine that to many transition is considered the conclusion to and not the beggining of a process. I know this is not the case with all and only reflects my personal experience.

It is interesting what you say. I think being aware of the long, exhaustive, often painful ( both emotional and physical ) process you put yourself through, I was surprised at the seeming unwillingness of the transsexuals I've known to then want to fulfill there new role in society. That as biological women there was no longer any need to pass as such. And indeed many of them didn't. Did this reflect how they were, or how they responded to their gender dysfunction prior to transition? I know there has been an increase recently in the number of transsexuals who have sought to have the process reversed. That transition in itself is not necessarily the key to happiness.

I think the use of the term acting is a little harsh. I don't choose to be who I am only how I respond to it. I don't think today I'll be a showgirl tomorrow maybe a pirate. My life would have been so much simpler if I had just been the alpha-male my gender designation at birth dictated I should be - now that would be acting! I'm the same person however I'm dressed. Even in donkey jacket and hobnail boots, though God Forbid! that should ever happen.

I only speak from personal experience and know that the views I express do not encompass in their totality the myriad different personal detail of any one individuals life. I do think, however, that any lack of understanding by me or others like me of the ts experience is reflected in equal measure by the lack of understanding of mine. I'm willing to accept that a transsexual is different to me but then I'm willing to accept that everyone is different. I do not fully understand, however, why after going through so much so many transsexuals then stop trying to pass at all. As if the whole world now knows they are female. When we know so much in life is won or lost on appearances. But I think you have enlightened me a little, though there does seem to be a double negative at play here.

Porscha and Dani, for the term acting I believe both Brina and I intended that to refer more to "making a conscious effort" rather than pretending. So I hope if you read things with that intention it will change what the message was conveying.

Brina, I apologise if I caused you any offense by saying "there seems to be a lot of snobbery in the T world". but I have to say your reaction to that was exactly what I was refering too because your comments have made alot of people feel that you regard them as invalid or lessjustified. I am not looking for a showdown, that is finished, I would just like to have some open and sensible debate.

I consider myself TS because of how I feel inside but I only very really get the oportunity to express my inner self on the 'occasion'. Does that make me any less TS?

Brina,

I apreciate what you are saying but I dont consider it blatant disrespect. And I can asure you that no one has intended in showing you any disrespect. My initial comment regarding there seems to be snobbery in the T world is that I have had a minority of people who call themselves TSs say, this person is ok but their just a TV, meaning that they are some sort of lower class. which i do not agree with. it was not my intention for you to find offense to this, it didnt apply to you. if someone does call themselves TS but do not transition, i dont think it makes them less valid as a TS, they might have a heart condition where the transition isnt practical.

i agree with you on the medical information and advise. that is dangerous. the only advise i would take heed to would be from my doctor. i see a lot of colourful characters here and TW is prolly there only outlet to express themselves. it down to my personal judgement to whom i take seriously and not seriously. the people who i consider questionable, i keep at a distance.

unfortunately, it seems that it the genuine people who are TS and many are going through various stages of transition have been upset by this debate. including me, but i have put my feelings aside and got on with debate. everyone respects you for what you have gone through and what you have acheived.

i am interested in asking you... when should someone call themselves TS or not? personally, my view is that a TV is happy with the male identity but enjoys dressing up as a woman. where as a TS indentifies as a woman regardless of their outer appearance. i have always identified myself as a woman hence that is why i consider myself as a TS, even tho i have not made any changes to my body.

your opinion please, when should someone call themselve TS and when shouldnt they?

What a fantastic post Porscha, so well put! Like you, I know I don't pass but I also don't give a damn about it either, it's important to be me, I really don't care what anyone elses thinks of me. Sure, I would love to be more feminine but without 30K for some serious surgery that isn't going to happen.

I have a mix of confidence and arrogance that gets me out there. The confidence to go out in the first place and the arrogance to not care about what joe public thinks.

I don't pass but I have never had any problems either, I truly believe a lot of that lies with how you present yourself to the world. Act like a lady and you will be treated as one. Of course, geography and attitudes of the locals plays it's part and should not be underestimated. There are areas I would never go out, but then there are areas I would be wary of if I was in guy mode as well.....

There is no doubt about it for me though, life is just better, more natural and more fun as a woman.

Nikki

Being accepted is not the same as passing for an RG, but in my opinion, acceptance is much more valuable and for many of us, more realistic, since we can't all afford the necessary FFS.

Nikki

'truly transsexual'? Just because a person hasn't had full SRS or is still living in guy mode does not make them any less TS than someone who has. They may be prevented from doing so by a number of reasons.
You shouldn't forget too that some people like to live in the 'twilight zone', they enjoy having the best of both worlds.

Don't take this as an attack, I just disagree with your view and wanted to put mine out there too.

As for passing, I think it's the wrong phrase to use, 'acceptance' is much better and covers pre-op, post-op and non-op, since we all just want to be accepted for who we are.

Nikki

I think acceptance and passing is somewhat linked together to me. I certainly look for acceptance and in this context I am looking for acceptance as a woman.
In order to get the acceptance I want, it is important to me that I "pass". I want to be accepted as a normal, average woman with nothing special about her. That's right, I don't want people to think I am special in any way when it comes to me being a woman.

If I wouldn't pass, I could get accepted as being a good collegue at work, accepted as a friend, accepted as (something something) but that kind of implies acceptance despite being transsexual or perhaps because of that, depending on the situation. That simply isn't the kind of acceptance that I want. I want to take transsexuality out of the discussion all together, I just want to be accepted as a woman. I don't want to give people the choice *not* to accept me based on me being transsexual.

In order to get acceptance as a regular woman, I need to pass. That is why passing is so important to me. Someone in this thread wrote that people who aim to pass 100% of the time are in for a lot of heartache and I totally agree with that. The times I know that people have "seen through" me hurts me terribly and I dream nightmares about those situations over and over.

I somewhat envy those transsexuals who doesn't pass and are mentally strong enough not to care about it. But I'm not one of them... Not passing is a nightmare to me.

I think this thread has moved too far off topic and has become another debate between TS/TV's which I find sad. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion, some will agree with it, others won't, but everyone's opinon matters, and there is no need for it to become a heated debate. You can respect the other person's viewpoint without having to subscribe to it, none of us here have the right to raise their hand and say that their view is the only correct one, we are individuals after all.

Nikki

I have to agree with you about appearances and I guess it does come from 'feeling' like a woman regardless of what I'm wearing, as opposed to making great efforts to 'transform' into one by prettying myself up. I have even been knocked for wearing combats or jeans instead of skirts and dresses by other TG girls!

Good luck with your laser Marsha, I'm on my 7th treatment today, and after that we start on the chest.

Nikki