The last thing I want in the U.S. is NHS. I'm not sure if you actually are in Sweden but my sister in law has lived there 30 years. It took over ten years to solve her boyfriends problem that basically had him bed ridden. He had a frickin allergy, keep your government health care. Our health insurance is fine in most cases, what needs to be done is mandate that trans procedures must be covered. You watch too much media that hates our country and only reports the negative things. I'm definitely not saying all is great here. The biggest complaints come from the people with their hands out wanting government to give them something for nothing. All that accomplishes is dependency on others rather then taking care of oneself. And when people work hard to make money, they are penalized, what's the incentive?

Also there was a new report out just in the last few days, they expect more than 200,000 UK citizens per year to seek health care outside of the UK by 2010. Why if it is so great?

This post should also help answer Porscha's question about why gals here don't like to talk politics, lol. We all have our opinions.

Well! Apathy isn't quite correct....it's more like apathy and ignorance "I don't care and I don't want to know." That unfortunately has been around for a while. I have read that our current president was, supposedly, elected by 28% of eligible voters. Unfortunately, the census bureau takes samplings so their figures are not carved in stone. We really don't know how many people aren't register to vote.
About NHS - all members of Congress, the armed forces(and veterans), plus all government workers get health insurance and some family coverage. Do we have universal coverage in the US - depends.
Again unfortunately, insurance companies were allowed to "go public" meaning they became companies selling stock on the open market. Many people believe that the interests of the insurance industry have changed from serving their subscribers to serving their stock holders. Guess who gets the short straw?
In many respects UK and US are similar, we do share a love of freedom but freedom is a two way street.
And that's my two cents or pence or yen.....whatever -
I was once told by a wise gentleman "Figures don't lie but liars figure."

Gracie

this is the political forum I'd join in the swing of things. It's more a point of interest in that almost every thread is from our American sisters. Which makes you wonder about the nature of politics in both countries especially as we seem to share so much in common. We both elect our Government, live in supposedly free and democratic societies and cherish similar values - freedom of speech and association, equality before the law etc. So why are we here seemingly so apathetic about politics?

It's possible that politics in the UK and EU are more stable than they are here in the US. Widespread corruption and issues of religion seem to impede any positive progress in the states, thus making us more politically aware (paranoid?) and active (angry?).

LOL, that brings up another point ...........................................
Who me angry, my life is pretty good all and all. I just don't like having to work my tail off to support people who continue to make wrong decisions in life, I have my own family to take care of. Maybe I should just do less and let others take care of me, sounds like a good deal. What happens when enough of the hard working decide it should be their turn to do nothing, who is going to pay their way?

That is why communism eventually fails, it counts on everyone chipping in and doing their part. Problem is there are plenty of people only willing to do the minimal amount required to get by and when the harder workers see that others get the same thing for doing less, they do less.

Of course there are people everywhere inbetween, many work hard and still struggle. I do understand that. All I am against is government creating a dependency class of citizen. More often than not, politicians pander to them strictly for power and re-election. So it becomes to the politicians benefit to have more people dependent on government handouts.

LOL Anna,
Here is a question to go along with your comment, Do the politicians first start over here and when they are finally booted out they go over to the UK, or is it the other way around? Maybe they just swap countries every so often

It's true that NHS and some similar socialized medical systems have become great ponderous beaurocratic monstrosities of substandard care and inefficiency at every level. The fact is that here in the US, the majority of working Americans do not have health insurance. Yes, privatized health insurance might be better, and it sure would be cool if it covered at least a little more of my treatment, but when less than half the workers in the US have no access to health care, that's pretty serious. And I'm not talking about layabouts and freeloaders here. I'm talking about workers.

Yes, socialism sucks in a big way, but as populations grow and things just get more intense, some structure must be imposed on the systems we all depend upon for our well-being, from roads and sewers to yes, health care. Where does the money come from? Well, from taxes, of course. The same place all that money is coming from to kill people a half a world away. Interesting how the first people to cry when you ask them to kick in for health care seem to be the first to spend ten times more of our tax resources in endeavours like war.

I hate to throw statistics at you Robin but based on your comment less than half have access to health insurance that would mean that less then 15% of the U.S. population works, I don't think so.

Based on latest avaible statistics 15.2% of the population have no insurance.
Source: U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Survey, 2002 and 2003 Annual Social and Economic Supplements.

Based on the most available U.S. Census statistics, 55.2% receive health insurance based on their own employment. This does not include spouses or children on the plan. "(These estimates do not
reflect the fact that some workers were covered by another family member’s employment-based
policy)." Source: U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Survey, 2003 Annual Social and Economic Supplement.

The two groups with the highest rate of no health insurance are:
18-24 yr olds 29.6%
No high school Diploma 28.0%
Source: U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Survey, 2002 and 2003 Annual Social and Economic Supplements.

18-24 year olds rarely purchace health care due to the not seeing the need and age group least likely to have medical problems. Many have insurance available through where they work and choose not to get it.

No High School Diploma. Hmm, goes along with something I said earlier about people who continue to make wrong choices, why do I have to support them.

We can play the statistic war all day long. I think it would be great that everyone had health coverage, but not from the government. What program does the Federal Gov't run effieciently? And people want to turn their health over to them?

While I am occasionally given to exaggeration, it should be noted that there is a difference between quoting statistics and interpreting them.

True, the Census Bureau cites the current percentage of American workers without health insurance as 15.8%. However, it's important to observe that this is up from 15.3% in 2005. What does this mean? If we translate this into actual numbers, this places 47 million people in this category, up from 45 million in 2005.

These figures can still be deceptive, though, as it is a common practice for employers to provide token coverage just to say that they do. The company where I work has a "health plan," but between the annual deductible, out of network fees and drugs not covered under the prescription plan, I am pretty much paying cash for my health care as if I had no coverage, in addition to now paying premiums for a plan that just doesn't deliver.

In an ideal world, employers all do right by their employees, but the sad fact is that this is just not the case. Until all employers step up and do the right thing, the American worker's best defense against exploitation remains collective bargaining, and if the unions can't deliver, the next level of enforcement needs to be the government. Borderline socialism, to be sure, but this could be prevented by employers taking ownership and bearing the responsibility for the fair treatment of their employees.

I can't pretend I'm familiar with the intricacies of the American Health care system so I graciously bow out of that discussion. To quote Disraeli, however, " there are lies, damned lies, and statistics." The unfortunate thing about statistics is they can always be manipulated to prove whatever thesis you have in mind. I'm sure someone could take these same figures and use them to produce a thoroughly compelling and cogent argument as to why the U.S desparately needs state funded universal health care. I do agree entirely with the need for collective bargaining however, and the importance of trade unions in the workplace and similar organisations of collective strength and security in society as a whole. It's a cliche but united we stand, divided we fall.

I can't agree, however, that socialism sucks. But let me explain where I come from here and detail my background a little. Not too much, I want to maintain your attention for a little longer. I come from a large anglo-Irish catholic, working class family. And though I like to imagine otherwise I suspect I have the various prejudices that come with that. I certainly have any number of chips on my shoulder but that's another matter. It's a Labour family, old Labour, not that New Labour monstrosity. To be anything else would be considered heresy. I was raised to believe the establishment of the National Health Service to be the greatest acheivement of any Government, a gift to the people, and to cherish the welfare state. So the would be no more children working in factories, no more Jarrow Marches, and there would be homes fit for heroes. And for all their imperfections I still believe that. I worked for many years I worked in the DSS and I am fully aware of the dependency culture it creates. I know all about freeloaders, generations of them, screaming at me, making threats, demanding their State handout. But I also remember having to go the shop with little bags full of coppers which the shop assistant would empty onto the counter and add up in front of everyone. I don't ever want to do that again. But I'm no bleeding heart liberal, my family come first and I come a very close second, anything else is well down my list of priorities. But I also have the personal responsibility that comes with a sense of free will and it is not expected of me to seek help outside the family circle. If I have a problem then I should sort it out. In other words, don't go cap in hand.

Maybe apathy is not the right word, complacency is a better expression. Part of the problem is that there is so little to distinguish between the political parties. Which is understandable because they all believe in the same system. So you can tinker but you cannot change. Also there is no democracy anywhere in the world. What there is are various forms of representative politics. I have the opportunity to vote every so often, which I don't use, but then the Government goes onto to do whatever it wants. I didn't have any say in our rush to war in Afghanistan and Iraq, or on the new European Treaty they have just signed. Come the next election they will seek my vote and make all kinds of promises in their manifesto, none of which are binding. Then there are the lies and the corruption, cash for honours, a year long investigation and no charges bought. And who had the last say on whether there should be charges? The Attorney General, a Government Minister. Unsurprising then that it never got that far. Then there's the greed, the exorbitant expense claims of MP's, the special mortgage relief they get on their second homes the voting through of their own pay rises, always above the rate of inflation, the benchmark for everyone else. People here simply don't believe the politicians anymore. It's reflected in the turnout, down to 60%.

Anarchism, Destruam et Aedificabo. It's not so much that it can't work but rather that those more powerful would never allow it to succeed. And the contradiction, the dilemma that lies at the heart of Anarchism leaves it unable to defend itself. Remember Barcelona in 1937. So much more to write and so little time. And anyway I want to think I still have some friends.

Koala, what's new with threads drifting in various directions, the topic is still politics. Porscha's thread was about apathy in politics, many of us have stated various reasons we don't like our current governments and what direction they are heading. Because Porscha asked why do we have apathy about talking about politics are we therefore being told not to talk about it. I think for the most part everyone is in agreement here that things are not perfect in government and our politicians are mostly to blame. And it has reached a point that it now matters little who you vote for because the politicians only care about themselves and having power. They basically continue to dangle the carrot, never fully allowing us to have what we really want because if they give us what we want we won't need them anymore.

I think Porscha's last post before this was excellent. It basically stated the same statistics can be manipulated to prove anyones point and that we make an effort to take care of the most important things in our lives on our own, not wait for someone else to do it.

How do you look at things, is the glass half empty or half full? If you are a pessimist you can always find negative information to prove your case. Likewise, albeit harder because of how the media prefers to put more emphasis on "if it bleeds it leads", there is plenty of reasons to be optimistic in life. It is unfortunate that anyone suffers, but just because some do does not mean everyone does or should.

Some time ago, I attended a panel discussion presented by several high profile American transgender figures, on the topic of talking to the media. Famed author Jenny Boyland admonished that one should be ever so cautious when supporting an argument with statistics.

Use of Census Bureau statistics in the context of this thread is a good example of this. Just as one participant can see the fact that only 15.8% of working Americans are not covered under health insurance, while another observes that the 15.8% cited represents 47 million people. So, the same statistic presented in two different ways are both true, but have distinctly different interpretations depending on their presentation.

Anyway, I'm comfortable discussing politics here. This is the political forum, is it not? Ideally, it should be primarily devoted to transgender politics, but transgender people are, above all, people, and are affected by all things political, whether or not it is directly associated with transgender issues. If discussion of politics in the political forum makes any of our members uncomfortable, we could always move political discussion on over to Maryanne's Film forum.

I too was a member a mainstream political party, and one not so mainstream. I even voted once, much to my eternal shame. So I was quite heavily involved in politics as a child of the 80's. There seemed to be so much to oppose back then and everything was just so black and white. I still hold the same views now as I did then, so I don't think I was wrong. So my involvement in politics certainly didn't modify my views and I have always tended too see things in terms of right and wrong. Politics taught me only two things: how to hate and how to lie. Left-wing politics is driven by hate, not hatred of their political opponents, but their hatred of each other. It's not a pleasant experience spending your days hating someone else simply because hold a different opinion to your own. I'm a pragmatist by nature, I think, and when I hear the term conviction politician it sends a cold shudder down my spine. As Nietzsche wrote, " Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." Just how many lives have been destroyed by anothers convictions. The worse aspect, however, is the lying. Having to support and try to convince others of policies you don't even agree with yourself. You look them in the eye and say one thing when all the time you're thinking - you're right you know. It does serve to remind me, however, that politics is a career. And it's not a world full of sincere people with earnestly held beliefs driven by an overwhelming desire to make the world a better place. But politics is important, we can't pretend it isn't. It effects us all on a daily basis whether we are actively involved or not. Of course polticians are self-seeking as are the parties they serve. Government and the State is a leech that sucks the life-blood out of humankind. But I can think of no alternative. we just have to fight our own battles.

Gee Porscha, would you mnd if I just cut and paste your last post and put my name to it? Maybe some of my prior posts lead some to think I am argumentative regarding politics, but actually all I'm against are the far left liberals and the far right conservatives. Both are just different people telling you that they know what is better for you.

Mistrust of politicians is a healthy mistrust to have.

From Porsha's post


"Just how many lives have been destroyed by anothers convictions. The worse aspect, however, is the lying. Having to support and try to convince others of policies you don't even agree with yourself. You look them in the eye and say one thing when all the time you're thinking - you're right you know. It does serve to remind me, however, that politics is a career."

==================


I am reminded of a quote from ex Gov Dreyfus of Wisconsin at a CEO leaders conference..... (sorry for his spelling).

He asked these CEO's

"How many of you are involved in your local or state government?"

in the room of over 300 CEO's only 2 raised their hands.

He went on to say

"Shame on you. You are delegating your futures to the professional politician,
who has never had to manage within a budget, run a company or any of the other skills in this room"

"Their main job is to get re-elected!"

He went on to encourage this group of CEO's to take some time out to get involved in their local
govts and not leave their long term fates to the pro professional politician.

If only we as citizens really took that advise seriously!!

Hugz,
Michelle Lynn

Are you sure it's apathy? Maybe sometimes people are tired of discussing politics and want to forget about such matters, even if for a moment. That doesn't make one apathetic. While I think having a political forum here is a good idea, my thoughts are usually elsewhere when I log into TW. In fact, one of my major fields is legal/constitutional history. Sometimes I just want a break from work.

Besides, I'm an Anarchist.

I'm not sure but mabe Robyn is right.
I've been to the clinics, seen the therapists.... been through the entire thing and I haven't really ran into any problem that politics or laws would have much effect on yet. From where I am standing now, things look rather well so I suppose I don't have many issues to cry about.

If I were from the US, I'd be crying about getting NHS which I suppose is the main difference between being TS in the US and in most EU countries.

I guess I just don't see any laws I'd like to see changed or political statements needed right now

Wow Marsha, I suppose anger management isn't covered in the US....


edit: but maybe I should try to clarify a little... I meant I probably wouldn't care what system covered med-care for TS as long as it was covered.

In the UK, we don't have ONE decent, honest politician.....they're all lying cheating b*****ds only interested in themselves & what they can get, with no regard for the people who vote for them.
The thing that bugs me most is when they vote themselves massive pay-rises & then expect the rest of us to accept, in some cases less than 3%.

Then they wonder WHY there's such a low turnout come election time......tis time they got their snouts out of the trough & did what the electorate actually PAY them to do!



Lol xxxxxxxxxxx
Anna-Marie

Does it matter? Capitalist governments are all evil and interchangeable.

Ok, this is rather funny to me....
I wrote a little statement about something and a small misunderstanding about a tiny, tiny bit in that statement caused a HUGE discussion about something completely different.

Deliberatly misunderstanding and spinning things off-topic, Isnt' that what politics is usually all about, in practice? How can we all dislike politics so much, we seem to be really good at it!!

*hm*

I trust my polititcians and I really care for politics. I care so much that I am actually member of a political party and occasionaly go to different schools and inform what our party does and stands for. Most topics in the political forum concerns issues only related to the US and I know the people in the US value my oppinion on domestic matters just as much as I would value their oppinion on domestic politics in Sweden (very little).

I come here to read and discuss things related to transsexuality, including politics related to transsexuality. If I wanted to discuss politics related to something else, looking to trannyweb wouldn't be my first choice.