Headline news: " The World's glaciers melt at fastest rate in last 5,000 years." The world's glaciers are melting faster than at any time since records began. Professor Wilfried Haeberli ( of the monitoring group ) said " There's no absolute proof " but nevertheless the evidence is strong. Experts have been monitoring 30 glaciers around the world for " almost three decades." From this they extrapolate catastrophe for hundreds of millions of people, the destruction of their eco-systems, increased flooding, avalanches and drought. Are we we looking at the worse-case scenario here, there's nothing like justifying your own existence and securing future funding. Is it little wonder so many people remain sceptical.

Porscha,
Add to that there are plenty of people with "stupid" stamped on their forehead sucking it all up.

Let's add this up:

Monitor glacier for "almost" 30yrs
+ "No absolute proof"
________________________
= Fastest melt in 5000yrs

Doesn't seem right to me. Is that how Politically Correct Math works, if you feel good about it then the answer is correct?

I don't claim to be particularly prescient so I'm sure I'm not the only one for whom the word 'con' looms large. I don't deny the science, I'm not an expert, so much as the political response to it. And how that science is being used. It is a bandwagon which politicians of every political hue can jump on and be viewed in a positive light. Their response to it, and it seems their only response to it, is to tax us more at every turn. Tax on flights ( not going to prevent people flying ) tax on SUV's ( not going to stop people driving them ) fines for not recycling, having to pay for your plastic bags at supermarkets and it goes on. Why if they want to cut down on the number of people flying have they just opened a new terminal at Heathrow. It's all money in the coffers and you cannot oppose it without being deemed ignorant, selfish, and enviromentally insensitive.

Geez Eileen, nobody is attacking poor ole Professor Haeberli. The fact of the matter is the horse's mouth said "no absolute proof" and Professor Haeberli happened to be the horse.

And since you want to educate us on middle school biology, I will throw in my 2 cents on scientific research awards. Professors of Dr. Haeberli's stature do not live on teaching wages, they live by having their work published. Whether in Small Town, U.S.A. newspapers or a world renowned scientific journal. So don't spew the line that the media is eating it up, because people like Professor Haeberli are more than happy to feed the media all the substantiated and unsubstantiated info they can just so their name is out there and more research dollars will be thrown their way.

Hugs,
Marsha

@Marsha
You do realise that there can never be absolute proof with any scientific theory don't you?

so, by your argument feel free to disregard gravity

The best you can hope for is a convincing theory that matches all the evidence, and that theory lasts until it's disproved.

I remain very sceptical about MANMADE global warming, I remain convinced about global warming though.

I also remain sceptical about how much funding goes to the scientific community for anything with the tag global warming, it's enough to make scientific organisations (who have permanent funding crises) feel the need to link any spurious science to global warming, and also disregard findings that don't fit the standard models.

I think an example used was:

Scientific Study #1 Mushroom production in southern Europe = no financial backing whatsoever
Scientific Study #2 The effect of Global Warming as shown by mushroom production in Southern Europe = large financial backing

Same study, but one has a paragraph that has a spurious global warming link... if you were a scientist what would you call the study?

LOL, Eileen I know you are German but I have always felt you had a greater grasp of English. Ok, change the word attack in my last post to blame, now can you understand it. Personally I feel I did a just fine job addressing your statement.

Basically you want to blame the media not Professor Haeberli for taking crumbs and making a cake. I disagree and say Professor Haeberli is more than happy to have anything with his name published and in this case it was unsubstantiated using words out of his own mouth "no absolute proof".

You gave us a middle school biology lesson on measuring tree growth and how it can be related to coring ice. I did not argue that point, just addressed it as middle school biology.

Because you threw in your 2 cents worth on the biology lesson, I threw in mine with how professors make their money and get research awards.

I know you tried to make a point that the media is not going to print the whole report, and if they did nobody would read it anyway. That is not the media's job as far as I'm concerned; their job should be to summarize a story. In this case it should have been a non story because the conclusion was no absolute proof. The debate is whose fault is it that this story made it to the newspaper. I don't think the newspaper went running to Professor Haeberli asking for whatever he has. Most likely Professor Haeberli went running to the media to make himself look good.

So I don't understand why you don't believe I addressed your main points let alone why do I need to address each and everything anyways. This is not a debate where someone has to win. Why must you think everything said, and please note the word "everything", is meant to attack or argue against you? If you felt I did not address something, why not ask me to address it rather than being so frickin rude. That is your problem, you do not know how to have a conversation, and you only expect others to listen to your darn lectures.

Yours Safely Disregarded,
Marsha

Why were SOME of the posts to this thread deleted, and if you think you needed to delete some of it, why didn't you delete the post that started the entire issue. I have a copy and will post it in my blog if need be.

Yours Safely Disregarded,
Marsha

Hi All,
Althought I have mixed views on the debate on Global Warming, it is apparent that if I dump 2 tons of carbon into the air, it can't be good for the environment. So I've taken to being more frugal on power consumption at home, by turning off equipment I used to leave on and bought a low emission automobile. Additionally, I've purchased carbon offset credits from an organization that plants trees and does reforestation work to offset my power consumption as well as the emissions on my car. I know its a small thing, but perhaps it will make for an cleaner world for my kids.

BTW: If anyone has been to the major manufacturing centers in China, you would know how bad the air can get when emissions are uncontrolled.

Respectfully,
MichelleLynn

5,ooo yrs to the earth's what 4or 5 billion revolution's around old sol. No the jury is still out on G.W. and by the time they come back with a verdict we will be either froze to death or burnt toast so just relax and enjoy the ride.The real dilemma is should i have a frozen margarita or a hot toddy?

Hello Swedish Koala loved your comment's but i am puzzled about the cattle in winter problem neverheard of heated barn's for them . Ithink a solution to that would be buffalo a.k.a bison they are very well adapted to harsh winter's. Just my silly thought Daisey F.

Hello, dears--

This morning--April 19--we had snow at the 500 foot level here in the Eugene area.

Global warming my buns!!!

With that thought out of the way, I am also not all that convinced that global warming is all it's being made out to be. Weather is cyclical; this might have been happening 150 years ago and we never knew it.

Having said that, I also feel we should make some changes to help preserve the environment. Use a water filter at home instead of buying bottled water, change some light bulbs to the little tube thingys, and reduce, reuse and recycle. Here's a tranny example:

Reduce--the amount of male clothing in your closet.

Reuse--some leftover boxes and bags, and

Recycle--take them to the thrift store and donate them. (Then, reuse/recyle some more women's clothing by purchasing them at that same thrift store, and use the boxes/bags to bring them home in.)

See? Being environmentally friendly really isn't as hard as it looks.

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina Sakura
"Almost-Angel, Girl Genius, and Ultra-Flirt"

I would like to add my tuppence worth to this lively discussion.

Global Warming is apparently happening no dispute what I take umbrage at is that actually no one knows the causes (note the plural here) that have a direct or indirect input tohow and why the climate is changing.
Now I have had a very long interest in paleontology and geology both are subjects that require some knowledge of the enviroment of the Earth during its 4.5 Billion years of existance.
Interesting facts:
1: the climate of earth has fluctuated considerably during this time
2: species have dies out and evolved due to such fluctuations.
3:There has been several "Warm periods" and several "Cold periods" throughout Earths history the cause of which is unknown though several theories have been propounded over the years.
4:Carbon dioxide levels are at their highest for at least the last 350,000 years known by measuring the levels in Ice cores and in types of sediment deposited in the oceans.

We know so little about SOL our sun its natural cycles and its overal effect on our climate after all the Sun is the main driving force of climate here on earth,all other factors contribute to its overall effect.We have only started to study the sun in detail over the last 30+years another 10,000-100,000 years may be enough for us to know all of its cycles through recorded data
Has anyone heard of the precession of the exquinoxes ? (Astonomy another interest of mine) this is a cycle of the earth approx 50-52,700 Year cycle, this through geolocical records has been shown to have an effect on enviroment (we are currently nearing a maimium of this cycle) which takes 100,000 years to complete.
These are just a few of the less obvious factors to understand as contributing to effects on climate. Did you know that a large Volcanic explosion and ejection of gaseous material can release as much CO2 as say america or china can in year so add in volcanoes. Algea in the oceans provides us with most of our oxygen more than 100 times all the forests of the earth combined.Their absorbtion of CO2 leads to CO2 being locked into the floors of the ocean. Add on methane releases from the ocean floor the list is almost though not endless.
No one person knows the whole we are years from getting close to knowing. But know this. The earth has had countless ice ages and ice age retreats as well as periods of very high CO 2 levels
going back many hundreds of millions of years did we have large polluting factories and combustion engines in millions of cars back then ?

We have responsibility as humans with the power we have to directly and indirectly affect the Earth. So of course be enviromentally aware we each should do our own bit to aviod and minimise our pollution footprint on this Precious Earth of ours.

It is so refreshing to see that there are many free thinking unbrainwashed folk here in the TG community.

***WARNING!!! WARNING!!! MINAKO IS RANTING IN THIS POST!!!***

Sarah--

Your quote:

The earth has had countless ice ages and ice age retreats as well as periods of very high CO 2 levels going back many hundreds of millions of years

Like I said..weather is cyclical. You've added a great deal more than that; and I agree that we know so little about Sol. What we are learning is both fascinating and a little scary.

I agree we need to take better care of the planet we have. Where I'm having issues is that it seems to be the cause of the day, if you will. Why now, suddenly, instead of say, 30 years ago when a lot more might have been done, do we need to attempt to undo 200 years of pollution, etc. in 10 years?

Again, no argument we need to make changes. All I am saying is that I'm waiting for the next cause du jour, and then let's see what happens when all this global warming stuff gets to be old. Will it still be important then? Or, will it be like governments spending far in excess of what they take in...until we can't pay our debts anymore? Or perhaps like finding one stupid idiot, and rather than finishing that, take on two (and potentially three) countries in a battle that will never have a winner because they want to blow themselves up for a better afterlife and they don't care if our young people get to die in the process?

Oh, yes. Global warming is important. Ending wars that have no meaning anymore might go a long way to fixing the envrionment as well. (No bombs...no gases and pollutants.) It'll also help reset the economies of a number of nations. Plus, we won't be spending money on wartime things, so that we can clean up our messes, get healthcare for those of us who have none, and even help others to get decent jobs that add to sustaining the environment, instead of ripping up old growth timber, rain forests, and things that assist in the ruination of the artic ice shelving...which leads to further saving the planet.

I made fun of reduce, reuse, and recycle. I did that because I do that. It's a small step.

So, yes, I'd like to see a lot more crap cleaned up. Start in Washington DC, take it to your State and Local levels (Or, whatever your equivalent governing entities are) and let's clean those idiots out of office, and get some people who will make the changes we need to have happen...happen.

Global Warming, War, Recession/Depression, Healthcare...oh, yes. They're all linked.

Because, dears, we are all linked. And, it may be the Transgender/Transsexual movement that finally gets the job done.

Goddess knows, the idiots in office sure can't get it done!

Okay, now I'm done. I have my flameproof panties and bra on...open fire.

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina Sakura

There are a lot of things I'm really uncertain about when it comes to the current environment topics. I mean, I don't mind doing my part in making the planet a little bit less polluted and of course I'd like to think that it's a good thing to be aware about what is going on, I just want to know that I am doing the right thing and not just doing SOMETHING.
The thing with plastic bags I don't understand. At least where I live, I get them at the grocery store for 1 crown (1$ = 6 crowns), use them to bring home my groceries and then use them to throw away the garbage in. If I can't get plastic bags at the counter in the grocery store, I'd have to buy them separately but what is the point in that? Even the environmental organisations here don't think banning plastic bags is a good idea and say that plastic bags are only a bad thing if they end up in the environment instead of at the garbage recycling plant.
And if the "price" for making Ethanol is people starving because of increased food prices, then maybe buying an ethanol fueled car isn't the best idea... And an eletric one? Who knows where that power comes from, a coal plant? Maybe not that good either.
We also get told not to buy meat produced in South America because it has been shipped all the way to Europe and shipping things causes pollution. But what is the alternative then? Here in Sweden it's to cold to have the cows out all year so we have to keep them in heated barns for most of the year and heating of course uses electricity which causes pollution.... *sigh*

It's not easy to be environmental friendly, even if you try...

Hey Porscha!

Thankyou so much for this thread. I hope it will run with debate and thrive. This is a subject thats close to both our hearts and our pockets!

Whilst I agree that we should all have a little more care for our 'home' everybody and their friend has leapt aboard a real gravy train that'll just keep on with the rolling stock of fright.

Global warming, as presented to the general public through the general media remains largely unproven. Its being used as an absolute con to raise more and more tax revenues [in the UK at least] with scant regard to what may actually - or not - be occuring.

In todays press, for example, is a report appertaining to John Coleman, founder of the Weather Channel in the US. He's calling for those advocating man-made climate change to be tried in a court of law for fraud, as this is a route where the facts can at least be tested, challanged and debated. As fact. His premise is that far from 'global warming' the earth is in a cooling down phase.

No jokes, now, about weather men and accurate forecasting!!!!

If I can find a link, I'll post it.

I just think the environment is - quite rightly - a serious issue but we're all being taken for a tax raising ride.

Much love

Rae xx