The eastern doctrines, whether or not they meet the criteria of religion, and the western ones do share the common characteristic of imposing a set of moral codes on their respective societies, and providing a basis for a system of laws.

I think the invention of god or gods serves the purpose of explaining those phenomena (creation, etc.) for which there was at the time no explanation, as well as providing some authority behind the moral constructs upon which social order was established, i.e. an omnipotent being or beings who created all that we see, and who, when displeased, would dispense some terrible punishment to those who would defy their rule. Law enforcement through superstition, if you will.

there was no such notion as God and no such thing as religion? To what extent is our moral code, our understanding of right and wrong and the way we behave toward one another determined by an awareness, conscious or otherwise, of Biblical and other religious texts. Does the possibility of the existence of a judgemental Superior Being in our minds, and the fear of death and what migh follow determine our behaviour in life? What if no such concept had ever existed, just how different might we be.

i think the human condition dictacts if there were/is no god - it would be necessary to invent one

vikki x - the theologian

Porscha,
I would have to say it would end up being survival of the fittest. And amongst the fittest you would have majority, excuse me, I mean mob rule. So gals like us would not have a fighting chance to exist. Chances are once you became ill you would be pushed aside. What religion has done is given everyone a right to exist and a set of basic moral rules to live our lives by. Pretty simple, I wonder who thought of it in the first place. Just maybe there is a God.

Marsha

I admit I am not fully conversant with Confucianism but isn't it highly ritualised and imposes strictures on morality and individual behaviour that denies personal expression; and in that respect is just as repressive and condemnatory as any of the Revealed Religions? Whilst not professing to the existence of the One God doesn't it demand strict adherence to very precise standards of ethical behaviour. So instead of looking to the Word of God as revealed to man in written texts for an understanding of right and wrong and how to behave, you are instead seeking truth through the teachings of a spiritual leader or philosopher. I am aware of your beliefs Meredith, and don't mean to step on your toes. I'm sure you'll find the views expressed here ignorant but that's my understanding.

Where do I sign up?

Nikki brings up a good point, and one that I think illustrates a problem with some religious beliefs that appear to be fueling much of the conflict we are experiencing worldwide.

She is careful to qualify her statement that god does not exist "in her world." This places the emphasis on the personal choice of belief system that might or might not contain the idea of a god.

I feel it is important to emphasize that freedom of religion also means freedom of no religion.

My problem with religion(s),particularly those with 'users manuals' is, that so much of the content,be it oh so fundamentally and morally sound,is open to blatant misinterpretation and/or extremely selective interpretation.There is so much reading between the lines,or,in other cases,concepts which don't suit somebody's prejudices will be quite simply ignored or even rejected because the god in question ,for some people,was obviously talking through his/ her arse whereas they claim to know what he/she really meant........
And then these religions have still got to be dragged,kicking and screaming,into the 21st century.......................

Otherwise,Nikki has summed it up perfectly.

I think I'd better get out down from the pulpit now.....

Lynn Harvey.

......................back in the pulpit again....................................

For those of us who are musicians (of whatever ability),religion can be a lethal problem.If we look back over the centuries,we can find so much good music that was inspired by,or written in honour of some deity or other.The problem is that there always seem to be fanatics/bigots who,for some reason or other,decide that music is not what their particular deity wants to hear.You can ask them to deliver chapter and verse from the appropriate 'users manual' and they reply along the lines of,"Of course,he/his disciples forgot to write it down
but I know he'd approve of my attitude..........."Meanwhile,another musician gets gunned down,instruments are destroyed,music shops are closed down,or even blown up.....................And both the major religions have the blood of musicians on their hands.................

On a happier,albeit for some people provocative,note,I seem to recall that we are all made in the image of god..........

May the force be with you!

Lynn H.

Hi Lynn,

Your raising the point about "religious" music, and how it can be taken up as a "weapon",for good or bad, reminds me of an article I read in the paper, a few days ago.

The hymn (or secular song ......... I'm not sure whch it is, definitively) Jerusalem, a very well known, internationally, piece of "religious" music, has been banned by a Bishop of the Church of England, (not sure which one, as I don't have the article to hand), from being sung or played in his parish churches, as, according to him, it "alienates" those in the Church who are "non-English", as it "praises" being English too much for his (I think), over-zealous Political Correctness!!
Could this be the thin edge of the wedge, and next we'll find that any hymn or religious song that has the slightest hint of "non-inclusion", will be banned from churches as being non-PC?

Could this be the spark for your "armagedon" view of a global war against all us musicians and our "supply-bases" !!! ????

Just thought that I've heard of dafter reasons for Revolution in my time !!! lol.

Hugs,
Angela. xx.

Lynn,

After the "flippant" reply to your comments, I want to give a more serious one! ...............

You're so right when you say that, in some parts of the world at least, many musicians have been, and still are, being persecuted, both by religious and political groups, for "not toeing the line".

Many musicians, unfortunately far too many to list, have lost their lives, just for singing/playing the "wrong" song/tune !!
In many, many cases, this has been done in the name of "religion"!

So, to relate this to the thread title ..................................
"Would the world be a better place if?", in this case, at least (in my view), most decidedly yes!!
How can such "extreme censorship" as killing someone for singing a song you don't like/agree with, ever be justified ................... in any Name !! ????

However, I've no wish or intent to offend anyone's truely held beliefs, I personally have none, but I totally respect (and to a small extent, am a little "jealous" of) anyone who has a belief!
I just can't find it in me!

Hugs,
Angela. xx.

Interesting. "Jerusalem" was included and sung in the church where I grew up, the Americanized COE, or Episcopal church. It was one of my mum's favorite songs, as it was traditionally performed by the choir at the Roland Park Country School for Girls, where she and her sisters attended. I also quite liked the Emerson, Lake and Palmer version of it.

The "PC" attitude often goes too far. For example, British citizens are not permitted to fly the Union Jack for fear of offending immigrants, but are free to fly the Confederate battle flag, which to some Americans who would rewrite history to suit their own comfort level, is considered to be offensive. Go figure.

It is a tremendous relief that loyal subjects of HRH may now express their patriotism unfettered by the constraints of political correctness.

What I find interesting, as I posted in another forum on a similar topic, is that in the case of the American system of government, the concept of freedom of religion (and freedom of no religion) was included in the Bill of Rights as one of the inalienable rights in recognition of the fact that religion is a matter of choice, and that its inclusion was intended to establish and maintain the freedom of each person to make their own choices with regard to religion.

Ironic, then, in the context of the struggle in which the American trans community is currently engaged, that religion, a trait which is exclusively the result of a conscious and voluntary choice, is one of the criteria commonly protected against discrimination, while those of us who did not choose this lot we share enjoy no such protections.

This topic raises an interesting question in light of some prominent current events. What is the social cost of religion? Of course, churches are tax exempt institutions, but there are a couple of examples in the news today of the additional cost incurred by religion to the already burdened taxpayer.

Tomorrow, the Pope visits Washington, DC, and the following day, NYC. The Department of Homeland Security has been preparing for this visit for five months, and 27 additional federal and local law enforcement agencies will be participating in the protection of the pontiff. Surface streets all over DC, a city that is difficult to navigate under normal circumstances, will be closed, as will a section of the Anacostia River, and several of its bridges, among which is the Woodrow Wilson Bridge, thus bringing traffic on the entire Capital Beltway to a complete standstill for hours. The result of this shutdown of the city in honor of this religious figure will be crippling, even devastating to businesses large and small, government agencies and individuals all over DC, preventing the normal conduct of business.

Who will assume the cost of this ripple of disruption? Will the Vatican reimburse the American people for this cost in personnel and resources, interruption of routine and loss of income? Doubtful.

In San Angelo, Texas, the compound occupied by members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was raided after allegations of the abuse of minors was made against them. Over 400 children were removed from the compound by the Child Protective Services agency, and are currently being housed and cared for by authorities at tremendous cost. Additionally, since each child involved in this, the largest ever child custody case, is entitled to individual representation under the law. This has required that the State of Texas provide an attorney for each of the 412 children affected, and that each case be individually considered by the court. Further processing and administration of the eventual disposition of these cases will surely run into the millions of dollars.

Again, one would ask who will assume the bill for this tremendous cost, incurred as a direct result of the beliefs of a few.

My two cents
Religion, not to be confused with belief in a diety, is a control group. This fact has been brought out again by the "breakaway" Mormon group here in TX. From reports in the news these poor people have been "generationally" dumbed down. The CPA (child protective agency) found out that the small children didn't even know how to play with toys, which were given to them be a parent organization in San Angelo. That's appalling - the "religious" leaders scope of brain washing extended into every aspect of their lives.
This is quite similar to the "breakaway" Moslums telling the bombers that they would go to heaven. Well, historically, the Moslums haven't thought of anything new. The Roman Catholic Church sanctioned killing Cathars, young or old male or female and taking their land.
Robyn - about the costs born by the public - the churchs here buy acres of land - taking them out of the tax base. There is a small town south of here, which had to curtail normal community services (garbage collection, street repairs, police force, etc.)because they had so many churchs there was no property available to tax.

sorry state of affairs
Gracie

Thanks for providing a brilliant example of the cost of supporting religion through tax exemption.

I have to sort of chuckle when I think of those Muslim suicide bombers who having been promised 72 virgins in the afterlife, when they arrive in heaven to be greeted by six dozen pimply faced 30 year old computer geek guys inviting them to join their game of "Dungeons and Dragons."

Nikki - have you read any Dr.Zues books?
hugs
Gracie

This semester I am taking an Ethics class and it has totally uprooted evrything I believed to be moral and how I make my judgements. Since I grew up Fundamental Independant Baptist all my morals were based on Christianty. I thought if someone was not a Christian then they were immoral.

However, that is not true as I am learning in my ethics class. I am currently reading a book called Moral Minds The Nature of Right and Wrong by Marc D. Hauser for my book review assignment. The philosophy of this book has to do with biological factors of morality. We are all born with a "universal code of ethics". Such as we all know that causing harm to others or killing is bad without being told. We just know it naturally it is in our genetics. Then our environment influences the rest and gives us the specifics--our family and our culture.

I still believe that God's beatitudes are good principles to live by. I like my christian friends and I also love my non-christian friends.

I have noticed that we all live our lives not to harm others and we all try to cooperate so we can be happy which is the ultimate goal of life-TO BE HAPPY.

That is the reason why we are ethical creatures.

As one who is ordained, and whose livelihood is based in part on working for a Christian institution, my answer to this might surprise a few of you.

The world might not be a better place without a God/Goddess concept...but it is certain that we as humanity would not have survived as well or as long without some sort of Theistic concept. This does not mean I am advocating the God of the Bible (though I personally do); but rather, a concept of a deity of some sort. You might even worship the Winslow, for all I know (Phil Foglio fans know of whom I speak. The rest of you...google "The Winslow" and enjoy). And while we have fought stupid wars of religious ideology, it is one of the few concepts that much of the world does agree upon: there is a divine being/beings. We may not agree on whose god/goddess/pantheon is best--but we agree (unless you are atheistic) there is a deity.

And that includes the Winslow.

Luv 'n hugs,

Rev. Mina Sakura

I have stood back and bitten my tongue as my views about religion's in general reflect upon my views of those with "faith"
Back to the question.
I think genetically most creatures of the mammilian order has inbuilt social codes its an eveloutionary imperative inbuilt for the species survival.
What makes human kind different is our awareness of self (though recent studies of other mammals from dolphins and elephants to primates shows we most probably are not the only self aware creatures on earth),I digress. I personally do not think religion is a requirement for a moral code to exist. Look up some athropological studies of the many tribal belief systems that existed and had existed throughout the world each had its own highly ordered structure some had some kind of religion usually some kind of creation myth/ story to tell them where they come from and where their ancestors go after life here on earth.
This is a very complicated question to give a satisfactory answer as too many factors are involved. I think many have a need to explain their exsistance and cant face the thought that this is it and once we are dead thats it no heaven or hell (modern concepts not in existance before christianity) these were the fears used to coerce society to help make the church rich, mammon took over true belief as most religions get twisted over time out of all reconition from their founders Ideals.
Many cultures around the world had very evolved moral guidelines so many so similar from disperate unconnected cultures would surely point to some inner template that we are born to live with ? Being the middle gender either man living as a woman or woman living as a man were often highly revered and seen as conduits to speak with nature or the various gods.
Monothestic beliefes are Modern for thousands of years previously there was Panathestic beliefs many gods for everything.these societies were often more flexible than our modern religions.

I think our own inner core values as to what is right or wrong can be corrupted by the belief system of our peers,the society we grow up within.These pressures quieten our inner moral compass.I suspect that true psychopaths are probably the ecception to this having no inner moral values which is why society is so often outraged by their murder sprees though I must point out that many pyschopaths can live and operate within society rules not all turn out to be murderers.

I will not add the various things that change behavious such as brain damage mineral and vitamin defficencies,affects of certain pollutants on behaviour.

So I personally believe that most of us humans are provided with an inbuilt moral compass to live by.
(just thought I would try to explain why I believe that.......) of course I could be wrong.

PS please dont ask me to dig out all my books on this subject to give examples will take me forever to compile it all.

The concept of some "supreme being/deity" is not necessarily per se bad.The problems arise with the
'marketing' of said deity.Our experience is principally conditioned by tribal structures in a desert environment with a deity (irrespective of the brand name) that is basically blood thirsty,bent on revenge rather than love,the subjection or ethnic cleansing of other peoples,and,last not least,brutal power.The rather more exotic philosophies found further east,in comparison, score rather better in the areas of 'love' or humanism which explains their attraction to many of us.

Here endeth my lesson..........
Lynn H.

Lynn, honey--

I love your quote: "The problems arise with the 'marketing' of said deity."

No kidding. Marketing of Religion--any religion--is bad houchi (news).

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

To try to revert to the original topic for a moment................

Trying to look fairly dispassionately at the last couple of thousand years history and the three religions we in 'The West' have been subject to/influenced by,my feeling is that, without them,the world would be no worse off and,yes,possibly just slightly better. Any system of beliefs which is not bloodthirsty,misogynist and which does not have the maintenance and promotion of patriarchal power structures as its raison d'etre, ought to be a winner in anyones book,and especially in ours.

It seems that 'The God Squad' is currently undergoing a revival and trying to amass the necessary influence to overthrow so much of what we accept as minimum standards for life in the 21st century. If this should happen,then I,for one,don't want to be around.

Here endeth the lesson...........

Lynn H.

I would argue that no war has ever been fought for reaons of religion, and yes I include the Crusades, the Wars of the Reformation and the current war being fought by Osama Bin Laden and his cronies. However, it is a convenient tool with which to seduce the gullible. The Christian religion upon which western morality is largely founded has been corrupted to the point where it is the root cause of much of the bigotry and hatred that bedevils us. However, it has also been glorious in so many respects that to imagine a world without it is injurious to that very soul it pertains to succour. To believe is to live, to be so ordered is to die a painful death whilst still breathing. What if there had been no religion? History teaches us that this cannot be so. Even the so-called secular becomes a faith in the end. That we need and desire it is an indication of the weakness of humankind. To fall to your knees and pray to an unknown deity for your salvation - what is that all about? To ring little bells, and chant unintelligible mantras for your spiritual well being - what is that all about? To be born and raised in one faith only then to convert to another and then another so as to find the true path to God - what is that all about? I thought there was only one God. It is that we are so small and so mean that we have to look to something bigger and better than us to give meaning to something that has none.

That religion has provided the inspiration for awe-inspiring architure, marvellous music and works of art is not to be denied. Whether or not religion is/has been the cause of wars is, however, a moot point. Whatever the religion, the individual armies/guerillas/terrorists go into the slaughter firm in the belief that they, and they alone, have god on 'their' side and that 'He' (interesting that,always masculine........makes you think.......) fully approves.I don't know that Christianity and its Judaic roots has necessarily been ' corrupted ' so much as interpreted too literally, far too literally. Any relationship with a supreme (?) deity, under whatever brand name you care to use, surely ought to be a personal relationship freed from the need for ' interpreters ', or inter-
mediaries of any description, and certainly not on the ' master-servant ' basis which a lot of people seem to take for granted. A deity is not there to decide your life for you, but rather to 'help' you make your own vital decisions about your life.The decision to transition and to what degree, or to come out and 'just' be a high-profile tranny is yours alone to make, not your deity's. Whichever Rite you use to communicate with your deity, whether you cross yourself, bow to Mecca, thank god you weren't born a woman(!), spin prayer wheels, chant " Om mane padme hum ", or flagellate yourself with chains, ought to be your affair and your affair alone. But, and it's a big BUT, any religious system which takes the line that 50% of the population are,at best, second class citizens, or that adherents of different rites are to be killed, ditto those who opt for different rites, is, in my humble opinion, extremely suspect in this day and age and needs to be dragged, kicking and screaming if needs be, out of the desert sands of a thousand years ago and into the modern world of the 21st century. After all,we know now where the sun goes at night, where babies come from, what causes earthquakes, tsunamis etc etc etc.

'nuff soap-box!

Lynn H.

Hey Porscha!

I don't think the world would necessarily be a better place. Man has always had a natural and inherant belief in something 'other', some other 'force'. Religion is simply Man's efforts to try and codeify that feeling and suspicion.

I feel that, even without the religious texts and beliefs, our moral code would not be so much different. We all know what we feel in our hearts. For the majority of us, irrespective of a social based religion, we know the difference between right and wrong, greed and charity. People are, in the main, naturally disposed to good.

And I believe there will always be 'such a concept', it's simply not within humanity's make-up for it not to be there, no matter how deeply people try to bury it.

I have absolutely no fear of death and look forward to it as a fantastic opportunity to learn.

Much love

Rae xx

Not to split hairs here, but Confucianism is really not a religion but a humanistic philosophy. Confucius, whose real name was Kung fu-tzu, might have invoked the idea of spirits on occasion, but otherwise he was concerned with proper behavior in society. Confucianism might have taken on some religious aspects later due to the teachings of others. It set the standards for Chinese society for centuries, although it fell out of favor on more than one occasion.

We've had this discussion before, and I have already stated my views/beliefs, so I won't reiterate them here.

I support the right for anyone to belief what they want, as long as that same courtesy is returned.

Your point is a good one, Justine. To take it a step further, Confucius lived during a time of Chinese history known as the "period of the warring states." Confucius developed his ideas as a way to not only end the strife but also prevent future problems. Education, particularly the study of history and literature, provides examples of correct and incorrect behavior. According to Confucius, a person has to know his/her "li," meaning the rites and rules of behavior according to one's status in family and society.

As you pointed out, Justine, this does all tie in together.

I didn't think you stepped on my toes. All I said was that I didn't feel the need to reiterate what I have said before. I did not think you insulted me at all.

While Confucianism does require certain forms of behavior, these norms are not completely rigid. Your behavior does depend upon with whom you are interacting. Your "li" with your father is different from that of your friend. But, in relationships, there is usually a superior/inferior structure. But where one might see this as repressive, others may see it as a form of respect.

Take my History of Asia class sometime. I go into far greater detail there.

Mere

God doesn't exist in my world. Just in other peoples. As for religion, I'm not even going to go there.

Nikki

Who wants 72 virgins anyway? Give me someone with experience anyday!!

Okay, to keep on track..........

I have many issues with religion which I won't go into here as it's not my intention to cause upset and stir anyone's emotions up. However, it seems that each religion I have come across reinterprets it's beliefs as they see fit and why call someone your enemy simply they don't share your beliefs? I will never get my head around that. To me, that's like going to war with someone whose favourite colour is different!!!!

Embrace the differences rather than oppress them. Live and let live............with the emphasis on 'live'.

Nikki

When was the last time an atheist started a war of religion? Or argued against providing condoms to a society riven with aids because they interfered with reproduction?

I do think the world would be a better place without a notion of a supreme being. Unfortunately very many people are inclined to believe in one. Maybe he explains the things they can't understand.

Morality has no particular connection with religion. You can found a morality on the writings of the Greek philosophers if you like. And Christianity is not a superior moral code to others. Try Jainism on non-violence, or Theravada Buddhism.