Various forum threads have brought up interesting discussions on whether or not transsexuals should blend into society norms or maybe we should push society to accept us however we choose to express ourselves. I am talking about how we live our everyday lives. What I would like to do is have an anonymous poll posing those options. If someone would like to comment, that would also be welcome. Also I want this poll open to all TG, not just TS. So cross your fingers and see if this works right, lol.

How do you believe transsexuals should mix into society?
1:	They should blend in with society norms
2:	We should encourage society to let us express ourselves however we choose
3:	none of the above

Uhm, lol, don't blame me, I'm not a software engineer.

As for me I think we should blend into society norms. I think if you look at other ethnic groups with far greater numbers then us, you will find they have a hard time being accepted as they are into society. ie, muslims. Therefore I believe the more we can blend in the better in the long run we will be accepted.

Hugs,
Marsha

That's an interesting way of putting it Lucy. You got me thinking about how it really comes down to your personality and what you can handle. If you don't mind people asking why you look or act the way you do, then blending into society really isn't necessary. But on the otherhand if you can't handle confrontation or mere questions about your behavior, blending in with society is probably your best bet. Neither is more right or more wrong, just what suits an individual the best. I think it comes down to us figuring out what is best for us and not expecting society to make the adjustment. My opinon is anyone waiting for society to adjust will have a long wait.

Hugs,
Marsha

Hi Marsha, gals,

Ummm... I think some of you know where I stand on this... lol I am the young radical of the group (lol not really). But, I do think we should break societal norms if they are constricting our personal expression and freedom to be what and whoever we think is best for ourselves (which goes along with what Lucy said).

Yet, I have experience in this and it can be tiresome. I am not one to be embarrassed easily but I have experienced as most of you gals have "the eyes" of people all the time when dressed in public. Some of that is paranoia, some of that is natural human curiosity, and some of that is pure disgusting hatred. So yeah, I dunno its damn tough to break those norms.

So I understand the desire to conform because it leads to an easier and more peaceful life in general. But, I wonder if some girls make choices about modifying their bodies because of that intense societal pressure to be one of the dichotomized genders. They feel forced into male expression which is not satisfying (or not "them) or to go through transition. And of course I support every girl that wants to transition. Just as long as she knows what pressures society is placing on her and her own subconscious. I think it is terrible that someone like myself who is definitely between genders should be faced with the choices of "be a man" or transition. I like my body but I am definitely not "masculine" in traditional sense. I think it is necessary to continue to fight these pressure, of course with tact and dignity. But, I want to eliminate the idea that because you are born as this certain sex, you must act like this gender. Because really if I want to wear a dress and cry at chick flicks, and paint my nails who should really care? Only me because its an expression for my love of floral print, hot pink nail polish, and troublesome emotional relationships! lol ok? ok!

Q

Hi girls,
I think Cristine says it all like I feel myself.
Though I wish to blend in as good as possible, this is a subjective view.
What we ourselves may think is quite acceptable and normal maybe very different of what is on other people's mind.
Therefore I would love it to have people choose their own way to live the way they like best.
Nevertheless I try to make it easy for myself and try blending in.

Marsha, Im kinda with you. i got really chewed up in a North Carolina group because I pretty much said some things about us that "OFFENDED some people. I said we should not be taking illegal drugs , and having casual "dates". I also said that we need to look and act the part as well. Our legs should be together and we should walk not like a Linebacker, but ladies. meanwhile this woman read me the riot act on the computer for two days!
I spend a lot of time watching how "real" women do and act. Ive even come out and asked at my church if I could take a couple of them to lunch and have them perhaps "teach me " some of their graces! I don't expect the world to come to me . I want to join the world!

Hi Marsha,I sort of agree with you and disagree with you......OK let me explain......Me personally I try to blend in and people have said that I make a very acceptable woman,even though I`m a little tall at 6" 1",but on the other hand I think we should be proud of being TG TS TV ect. and push the bounderies and make society accept us for who we are.Because if we don`t then the TG`s and TS`s who have no chance of passing because of their genetics,they will always be too afraid to come out in public,for fear of being rejected by society.This is just my humble opinion.
Huga and kisses,
Michelle xx

Ellen, I'm with you. I have seen and heard some of the most rude masculine behavior out of some gals that just leaves you feeling disgusted. And then they expect the world to accept them, give me a break. If it is not acceptable for a woman to go out in public looking like a whore with a mini skirt and the tops of stockings showing, why then should the public accept TG's doing the same thing?

This topic has nothing to do with passing. I believe the public as a general rule can accept you being transgendered if you conform to societal norms regarding behavior and attire. But if you want to stick out like a sore thumb, there are consequences and I feel some gals believe there should not be consequences.

Michelle, I understand what you are saying and I am also proud to be TS. I see no need to have it tattoo'd on my forehead, but if anyone asks, I am more than happy to talk about it and answer any questions they may have. As for height, I am 5'11" which is somewhat tall for a woman and I have noticed nobody seems to give it any thought.

Hugs,
Marsha

Hi Marsha and all-
Thanks for the journey into the theoretical. Of course there are many answers to your question depending on one’s physical attributes and philosophical makeup. For me I have an overwhelming joy for all things female. With the exception of slightly broad shoulders, I am an attractive female; however, after years of deliberation I conclude that I am delighted to be just where I am with no thought of transitioning. That said, my most joyful dreams as I would want to interact with society is to be able to freely interact with people in a cheerful and loving way while most people would recognize that I am cross dressing. It would be really cool if people I meet would examine my intellect, my figure and personality and cheerfully accept the entire composition. Of course they may look at same and reject it because of its intrinsic lack of quality. I am who I am (for a long time), and I love being just me, but I would be happiest if society would lighten up and participate in the joy of free interaction. Since this is all hyperbolic theory, I am pleased to sit in my corner of the world and be just thrilled.

With my best thoughts to all.

Jacqueline

This just caught my eye. Personally, I believe it should be for the individual to chose whether they want to blend in or not and what ever they decide should be respected by everyone else. I think its a simple matter of respecting someone elses freedom as you would like your own freedom respected.

I'm sorry Penny but I have to disagree with you. By saying anyone should do what they want and should be accepted opens the door for total abuse. Society needs some basic moral guidelines. An example of what you are offering up is that these loonies with diaper fetishes will be walking around in public with only a diaper on. I know that is extreme, but!!!!!!
Hugs,
Marsha

Niki, I swear to ya girl, I've actually seen women in the Dallas -Ft Worth area dressed like that too. They are some real loo-loo's too. Ellen S.

100% exactly Nikki. Outrages behavior just reinforces negative stereotypes of us. I know it sounds reasonable that society should allow individuals to be themselves but as I mentioned earlier it opens the door for abuse. Now what someone does in the privacy of their own home should be unlimited as long as they are not harming anyone else. Again I don't think it matters whether or not you are passable, just that you make some effort to blend with normal expectations.
Hugs,
Marsha

Hi Marsha,
I totally agree with what you and Nikki have said,but the point I was trying to make earlier probably not very well,is that we need to get to a point in societies thinking that if a TS TV,who externally dresses and behave correctly but will still never be able to pass.She should be able to come out without fear of abuse and be accepted,even if it`s clear that she was once a man.......or am I just being too forward thinking?
Love,
Michelle xxxx

Michelle, I think it is already happening and that it is mostly our unfounded fears that have us believing the world is out to get us. The point I want to make is even if we don't pass well, society will go on with life around us if we blend in. But if we want to choose to be outrages, in essence we become an obstacle that society feels they have to go around. Obstacles or distractions effect peoples routines which creates a negative atmosphere. My opinion of course.
Hugs,
Marsha

Again I totally agree with what you have both said,and for me it`s also about blending in and being accepted.I suppose I get frustrated when I hear so many girls on TW say that they are too scared to come out because of what people might say and how they might react!! I wasted so much of my life thinking this way.I just don`t want others to make the same mistake.
Huga and kisses,
Michelle xxx

Marsha.
A good question......as usual with such questions there are no definative answers that would suit either society or the individual.
I guess My views are conjunct with Lucys here.
Ultimatly I desire to be accepted as female a woman no matter my past history. Unlike some transwomen who try and desire to be totally stealth ( something I think is a more reasonable view for teen TS women). As long as society can deal and accept me as a women and see me as fitting in with certain aspects of being female that society accepts. this is in respect to being in a western society there are societies with different culteral values that would make such approach as almost untenable.
So I live and work in the best way I can.

My answer would be to live and blend with society norms with the proviso for being able to be individual and allow for individuality that makes for a colourful society rich with its many individuals and individualists whether mildly so or extreamly so.To expect everyone to conform is sailing too close to totalitarian ways of state. When a society is mature and confident enough to allow for individulism it is also able to allow for Transpersons amoungt's its midst.

Sarah

(dont know if that makes sense to you ? or anyone else.)

Sarah's post is pretty much my view point. Marsha, I wouldnt condone people walking about in nappies. However, it concerns me that some people try too hard just to fit in, which in my mind leads to disappointment, frustration and unhappiness. I would say there needs to be an even balance between expressing one self as an individual and keeping within acceptable boundries that society considers to be acceptable. You mention fear of abuse, well, that has happened in the past anyway and for most part society has learnt to accept transgendered people. In my opinion the rest is just a matter of taste, some people have it and some dont. I certainly wouldnt condone someone saying to a M2F that she isnt acceptable because the 20 rings through her nose and eyebrows wernt lady like, the day that happens we might as well let the nazis take over. once again, I can only conclude it is down to the individual to decide what is right for themselves.
penny
xxx

I do very much agree with you Penny with one little addition and that is the individual needs to understand that there may be consequences if they push the limits of what society can handle. I don't want to hear somebody looking like a guy dressed as a whore wondering why everybody thinks he/she looks stupid or nobody will hire her.

We have similar stuff already going on here in the states with guys wearing their pants down around their thighs with boxers covering their butts. Apparently it is cool or something. Looks ridiculous. Now, I'm an employer who works directly with customers. Explain to me why I would want to hire someone like this to work directly with MY customers who expect professional work. It's my business' image that I care about, not some lost souls self-esteem.

Hugs,
Marsha

I'm really with Nikki, Ellen & Marsha on this one. I am ts and have wanted to be perceived and accepted as female for as long as I can remember. For me, my ultimate accomplishment in my transition is to be absolutely accepted as female like every other woman and to simply disappear into society as female.

This doesn't mean that I, or any other ts woman, have to live a drab or dull life. Quite the contrary, we can and should our lives to their fullest. We can aspire to and be inspired by a myriad of roles and role models - women like Marci Bowers, Lynn Conway, Marie-Pier Ysser, Becky Allison, Andrea James, Calpernia Addams, Amanda Lear, Robertina Manganaro, Jahna Steele and the like. These women all overcame personal challenges to become exceptional.

None are perceived as anything but highly accomplished women in their chosen fields.This is what we all should be aspiring to - by behaving and dressing appropriately we can and will, as Marsha puts it, blend in. After all, isn't that our ultimate goal - to be ordinarily accepted as a female.

In various idle moments I've visited various Tranny Websites.......the number of people who seem to think that a micro skirt + suspenders+stockings+obesity is the nonplusultra of femininity or whatever is just.......well.......shocking.And then quite often these people complain that their partners have trouble with,or won't accept, their need to cross-dress or even transition. They might get away with it if they're young enough to be punks- and I've seen some punk girls who'd make such trannies look respectable(!)-but that's a very limited life-style.

'Pass' is a term that's perhaps a little overrated and used a little too often.I feel that it's probably more honest to say 'I get away with it'.The trick is to be able to merge into the crowd, isn't it,and the more you're out and about,and the more you can slip into the desired role,the more you'll manage this.It's a case of familiarity breeding contempt or being increasingly taken for granted-the more you're seen,the more you're ignored!At the same time you're out there gradually developing your own style,exploring the individual boundaries set by work,play,fashion,convention,personal convictions etc etc. What I'm not talking about here is a faceless crowd wearing Mao suits,for example (Oh boy,I'm old!)-nothing in the sense of a uniform.

Byeeee

Lynn H.

This is such an interesting thread! lol
i agree with marsha that someone who doesnt dress appropriately for work is not employable.
i also agree with bebe that for the most part transsexuals want to blend in and be unnoticed in the crowd.

however, i re-read marshas 1st post and i realise you were askin people opinions as to whether transsexuals should do more to blend in or should society accept transsexuals on a as is basis.

the question i would like to ask, is, what is the purpose of the question? the end result? i understand that you said you would prefer to see transsexuals blend in but to what end and what extent? does that mean you would expect transsexuals to try harder to blend in? what if someone was particularly unfortunate, would they be classed as a 2nd class transsexual? for me this is extremely tender ground we are discussing. for example, in a country that operates asharia law if a woman doesnt wear the right head clothing they can be arrested and even beaten or worse. are you suggesting that there should be something like political police for transsexuals to ensure they conform?

what is the end result you would like to see? what would you like to see for individuals who dont conform?

penny
x

Penny, I hope I can clarify because you have nicely added to this thread. First off this isn't about passing. What I was interested in is whether gals felt more comfortable blending into established norms society has for women, or simply put, do they feel it should be acceptable to make a statement and go about life as they please. There was no right or wrong answer, I was just curious what different gals might think about this.

There are good looking and there are ugly women, but from the standpoint of crossing paths with women, you know they are women. So the question is, do you want them to see you as a woman or does that not really matter to you?

Love,
Marsha

I am in full agreement with you Cristine. I want to be careful here with my words because I have gotten in trouble along these lines before. But I do agree that outrages behavior by some does effect our community more so than most other groups primarily because most people have little understanding about us in the first place. It really comes down to a numbers game. Most people are personally aware of few if any TG's. Therefore when they are confronted with outrages behavior in person, that may be the only real experience they have to base future judgements of TG's on. It is different for other groups. Most people have come into contact with numerous gay individuals, therefore when they see one that is outrages, they have the ability to say "but I know others who are really nice people". We don't have that understanding yet.
Hugs,
Marsha

i think the nail has been hit squarely on the head, well for me anyway lol.

I think the reality is that the majority of the general public has their attension brought upon transgendered individuals who are behaving outrageously, posibly helped and induced by the media, but none the less, giving our slice of the comunity a bad reputation and in retrospect it drives the more discerning individuals to camoflage themselve in an attempt to distance themselves from that type of analysis.

unfortunately, there will always be particular individuals who will make others feel they are "not helping the cause", and that is just the way things are.

cya xxx

All societies have their norms of behaviour many of which we in the West would find abhorrent. To try to fit in with what society expects of us would negate our existence. The fact that we are here at all shows that we haven't. Society does not expect its children to be transvestite, transsexual or gay. To be so is not normal behaviour. I don't fit in with the society that surrounds me. That's not because I am making a statement, that's just who I am, and I'm comfortable with that. I Shouldn't have to encourage society to accept me. I contribute as much to it as anyone else. The irony is that I get far more abuse dressed as a man than I have ever had as a woman. Such as the salvo of crude comments I recently received from a delightful gang of hoodies; or the mother who said to her daughters on the train, " I know, darling - don't stare." But then I have never wanted to blend into the crowd. I have always wanted to be the one who stands out, who gets noticed, for better or worse. I was bullied at school, I have been beaten up, I have to endure snide comments, I was forced out of my job. I know these things will happen again, and they happen because there are elements of society that don't accept me, but that won't stop me from being who I am. I can't conform to their way of thinking. Likewise, I'm fortunate enough to have a reasonable body and good legs. I consider that to be an asset and when I go out I like to show them off. As such, I have on occasions been accused of dressing like a whore, sometimes I have behaved like one. However, I'm not representing the transgender community when I go out. Those rare occasions when I have misbehaved may have brought me into disrepute but I don't believe they have had a negative impact on the transgender community as a whole. Neither does the way I dress bring the community into disrepute any more than a woman who wears a short skirt is a willing victim of rape or brings the female sex into disrepute. The simple fact is I work hard, I pay my taxes, I don't get drunk or abuse people; I'm intelligent, articulate, polite, gentle, kind, I and love my family. I think that's something I can be proud of and I believe the community which helped form me should be proud of to. I think we should be ourselves. If you are a little outrageous be so; if you like to blend into the crowd that's fine to. But don't let societies often erroneous norms dictate your behaviour . The way I live my life is a form of self-expression. You should be at liberty to express yourself as you wish. If people don't like it, tough; if society tries to stifle that freedom oppose it.

Personally, I think blending in is much more in our favor than not and as someone said if you want to dress like a slut for a party cool, but for just being one's self I think blending is the best.....~~Missi Lynn~~

proscha, thats a very good post. I have to totally agree with you and is a reiteration of i said ealier in the thread but said in a different way. I would say if an individual puts their personal preferences aside and instead dresses to blend in and conform to what society expects then i would say that individual has given up their freedom and their right to be themselves. when i dress i think "what will make me comfortable, what will make me happy" i dont choose clothes thinking "what will others think, what will others say"

i dont think the boy who wears his jeans around his bum showin off his boxers wears them for comfort. he is actually conformin to what his peers expect.

Hi Everyone,

Just an observation - It seems that the individual sisters personality and life goals dictate where they are on the spectrum of "fitting in" vs "Standing out", etc.
Much as society has a mix of interests/beliefs, so do we here at TW.

For the more out-going personalities who are comfortable being the center of attention, I laud your efforts to "move the cause forward". For those who really don't like the spotlight, being the best person you can be , while blending into society is also a personal choice.

The other discussion items is around the definition of blending/standing out vs the goal of the sister...

Is the goal to identify as a Transgendered person and try to blend in or stand out in that context, or is the goal to live/blend in as the gender you truly identify with.

My personal preference is to blend in as Michelle, and one day live fully as Michelle.

This does leave the question open - How does society become familiar and tolerant of us, if they don't know any of us, wether living as a cross dresser, a transgendered or transitioned individuals.

So although I prefer to blend in, I'm somewhat in-between in thought. Being a good person who happens to be an openly transgendered woman would allow others to become familiar and hopefully somewhat tolerant of us.

Hugz to all my sisters,

MichelleLynn

A group is by definition more than one person and so as a result any group is likely to contain individuals who have differing opinions and characteristics. If you group together the people who visit TrannyWeb you may be able to categorise numerous sub-groups and should fully expect diversity within each of those sub-groups. It is therefore very difficult for an individual to define how a group should act without that person either sounding either pious or dictatorial or risk causing offence. Because of all of this, this makes for an very interesting thread topic and makes you slightly nervous when you type…

In my view it is those people upon the extremes of any group that define that group in other’s eyes, but an individual who has chosen to fully express or suppress their opinion is a peripheral figure and is always susceptible as a result. Fish swim in schools remember but the greater body has more strength. Whilst it is the general behaviour of the group that is eventually accepted by society at large – irrespective of how that group appears or behaves – society’s initial outrage is provoked by those who are brave enough (or perhaps insufficiently careful) and who then introduce this group to all.

So if we choose to define ourselves as a group I’m not sure it is appropriate to pass judgement upon the way in which an individual acts, because we of all people should not rush to be critical of those who may not conform.

Bebe Edwards referred to a ‘desire to disappear into society.’ In my experience, exaggerated and loud behaviour often is a cloak for vulnerable people, but very rarely an individual might emerge with the foresight and determination to seek change. Let’s be careful not to confuse the two. I suspect that we – as a group – might be very grateful of those who stride out and grab attention whether intentionally or not, because it these people who will eventually disarm society at large.

It was only in 1955 that Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on a bus. The world will eventually change for the better.

Rachel

Wendy, you bring up who gets to decide what is moral as if everything will become a law, a right and wrong issue. What I mean by established morals in society is the same thing with how women first started wearing pants instead of skirts or dresses to work. There were never any laws saying they couldn't wear pants, but likely dress codes which many "chose" to go along with which overtime establishes a baseline of what is acceptable and what is not. As companies began to relax dress codes, more and more gals chose to wear pants which just made it that much more acceptable in society.

As many others in life have said, I would fight to the end of the earth for the rights of those people to wear what they want, but they need to know there are consequences for their actions. Maybe being laughed at. Maybe not getting hired for a job. Maybe getting all those weird looks. And sadly, maybe being harmed by those who cannot accept those not like themselves.

Just realize it is often not who you think that establishes societal norms. It can be the fashion industry pushing the extreme skinny look. It can be the makeup companies pushing the flawless face. It can be the plastic surgeons pushing the breast augmentations. It can be the kid down the road wearing his pants belted down around his thighs. Society either adapts and goes along with it, or they speak out and say it is not acceptable. As for the outrages over the top, dressing like a whore or drag queen, society still says that is not acceptable.

Hugs,
Marsha

I also think we should blend. Changes can be made from within easier & faster.

I think TS’s, TG’s, and anyone actually, should mix with society the way they feel best expresses themselves. To live a life not being yourself is no fun at all, as I’m sure many of us can appreciate.
I consider myself to be a fairly bog-standard, common all-garden transsexual, in other words, now I’m post-op, I’m a reasonably normal woman. I behave not much differently to my female friends (but of course everyone is, and should be unique), which is convenient really; society may find it easier to accept those who present in a reasonably standard gender-fashion. Doesn’t mean to say TS’s should blend in with society norms, but they should be aware that this is perhaps easiest for the public to accept, at least in this country. If you walk, talk, dress, look and behave as a girl, people will accept you as a girl. If you are two-spirit, third gender or any other gender “anomaly” and leave people wondering, you may have a bit more explaining to do. Present as female and you will need to do no explaining at all (obviously, after the coming out to all your friends stage!)
But my message is, be who you are.
I think I’d rather abstain than vote none of the above.
xx

I believe that we should be trying to blend in with society, in order to not be seen as the stereotypical 'tranny' that Christine mentioned. That doesn't necessarily mean living in stealth, (though I don't condemn that), but I think you should be proud of what you are, I know I am since our lives can be fraught with incredible difficulties and yet we get through them.

Bsides, if you look like a woman and behave like a woman then you are likely to be accepted as a woman. Isn't that what we want after all?

I suppose to some degree it also depends on what part of society you live in as well. I can only speak for the Western world and specifically Europe which is generally very accepting of transgendered people. I would be curious to hear what people from the Middle east, Africa or India would say regarding this, and whether their answers would be the same.

Nikki

I agree with Marsha. Society needs some moral guidelines and there is a huge difference between living as a woman, going to work etc dressed as any other woman would, and strolling down the high street in 6 inch heels, a too short skirt and a beehive hairdo looking something Divine's evil twin!! Just my opinion of course but I wouldn't want to see a woman like that, never mind a trans girl.

Nikki

Ultimately, I don't think it helps our cause, it just reinforces stereotypes about us. Besides, you can always dress as outrageously as you like for a party if you feel the need.

Nikki

Just a thought.

I wonder what the guys here think? Do they like the outrageous dress and would they be happy to be seen with a girl dressed that way in the high street. Or do they also want someone who, although perhaps identifiable as trans, is more able to blend into the crowd?

If any of you guys read this, it would be interesting to get your views too.

Nikki

Michelle, I personally believe that most of us, myself included, are kidding ourselves if we think we pass. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that in a negative way, just a realistic one. Unless you were born genetically gifted or have had 20k worth of surgery on your face, you will always have those male traits, (jawline, adams apple, eyes, brow etc etc).

I do believe though, and based on my own experience, that it isn't about passing. It is more about being accepted, and by dressing appropriately and behaving correctly for your gender, acceptance is very easy to gain. So again, for me it's about blending in.

Nikki

I know I get away with it some days, and on bad days I draw some attention but either way, I am still accepted as being female and suffer no ill consequences from it. So I don't care if they perceive me as a GG or TG, as long as I'm accepted as being a woman, that is all that matters.

Nikki

For the moment, I'll stipulate to "society needs some moral limits".

Who get's to set the morality for the rest of us? Sunday go to church Baptist ladies? Streetwalkers? Headbangers? Lawyers? Satanists? We already know what the "Moral Majority"-minority wants. I don't want outsiders or insiders telling me how to live my life. Been there, done that, It Sucked.

I think we are at cross purposes here. It is the fact that most of us blend so well that causes the more ...flamboyant.....members of our community to be noticed and assumed to be the standard. We know that the media loves to pick the whackjob out of any group for television or photo "journalism". Jerry Springer, roast in torment for a year for every life you have destroyed for money. Even I have a better chance of walking down the street unnoticed than they do. But what need are they meeting? Certainly not what most of you are meeting. They "will not comply" with your wishes because of the same reason you will not comply with society's. It doesn't meet YOUR needs. Who knows, perhaps some of them need to NOT try to blend because if they are outrageous and clearly not "women" then they don't have to deal with the pain of not "passing", which may be easier for them....or maybe they are just heterosexual males cross-dressing for sexual excitement or even oblivious to how they are perceived. I know that I used to be oblivious to my real appearance when cross-dressing. My perceived needs have changed considerably as I accepted it was not just a sexual brain spasm but a fight by my true self to be free. Truly, I occasionally miss the intensity of those experiences, but gladly trade them for the peace I have found instead. When I see one of my sisters dressed/behaving like that I wonder what internal battle is going on, but I'm not motivated to force them to behave as I would....most of the time. :-) To me it's not about morality. It's about needs, met and unmet. Let us not go back to the days of putting anti-masturbation devices on adolescent males because it will make them unhealthy if they masturbate.

I'm very aware of this, Marsha.

However dressing like a whore or drag queen is frowned upon whether the dresser is tg or gg. I have endured a certain amount of that social disapproval as a nurse. So has Stephy. Yet she endured it as a male and as a TS and I as a male in different ways. Was I to bow to social "disapproval" or discomfort with my role, they would have lost 35 yrs of my being a very good nurse. and caring for a lot of the same people. I have personally restarted hundreds of hearts. This is where society can run off the track of what is best, even for itself. Yet the first official "nurses" were males...Knights Hospitalers. Society often screws things up. A lot of males in health care, who care for them, are gay or tg. They are good at their work. Yet, when I went to nursing school, openly gay men were still considered unacceptable candidates. My classmates had to distract more than one fireman, or other macho type, who hassled me to save him what they knew was a certain trip to the Emergency Room if he pushed it. Back then I was VERY busy proving I was NOT GAY. Society not only kept a lot of good men out of nursing, but it put pressures on those of us who went into the field.

This social redirection is damaging to society because of it's loss. You missed the years of women dying in abortion butcher shops that led to today's laws. A woman's life was as over then as a gay man's if her pregnancy was outed. I don't agree that society should have the right to legalize that kind of oppression. It's bad enough what it does in it's ignorance. People have a right to verbalize their opinions of what they don't approve of. They don't have the right to threaten, harm or terrorize someone for their behavior. Society can well be more restricting than a law. Not always. A law can give or deny permission for such abuse.

Smoking minority ignored the needs of their fellow humans and damaged their health until laws forced them to stop. Social pressure did not. Yet, laws prohibiting littering did not stop them from throwing butts all over. The current combination of laws and societal pressure has made them usually behave as they always should have around others. I have gone from wanting tobacco sales outlawed to not caring any more. These laws effect everyone equally. Male, female, gay, TG, white, black, Christian and Atheist. It is a fair law that denies no group it's rights based on their group membership...and it provides that smokers and non-smokers can co-exist.in relative comfort.

It is wrong for society, legally or socially, to force a group to not have the rights that it grants another group, with certain "sensible" exceptions....and HERE is where we run into problems. Women shouid have been allowed to wear pants. In school, women had to walk to school in snow pants and change to skirts in the cloakroom for school; changing back to go home. That was just WRONG. The same way it's wrong to deny males the right to wear a skirt if they want to. LADIES DAY is illegal in CA. You can sue for $1000 in small claims court for every time you are denied equal treatment because of sex......and that is under the old laws before TG equality was passed. It is because society can do so much oppression in it's vast ignorance that laws are set to ensure that interpretation is very clear.

I agree that society can set strong pressures on behavior. That can be difficult to face up to. Let's not make it worse by giving them a law to oppress with so that we all have to start off by being arrested over and over to get our rights, as many groups have done in the past. At least then we only have to face up to individuals not an entire society all at once. Most of my harsh feelings towards organized religion comes from growing up in the highly oppressive society of the fifties and early sixties that was, by and large, due to their influences. I see small communities outside Los Angeles today where churches set the local mood and it can be downright oppressive still. Being a WICCAN in such a town is not easy. It's far easier to be an outlaw biker. The problem with "morality" is who decides what is "moral". I refuse to allow someone else's "faith" and a piece of rewritten, historical fiction to determine how I live, just as I refuse to allow armed criminals to tell me how to live and refuse to be socially pressured into participating as a spectator to sports. These are the same people who decided Chinese and Blacks could not marry Whites. The same people who said it was God's will that Blacks be slaves. Do we really want Society off the leash? They wield enough power as it is.

I don't disagree with your statements, Marsha, in fact I believe very much in Social Pressure's significance.

And, as a student of first propaganda, advertising and then fashion, I have long expounded that fashion is dictated to people far more often than they dictate fashion. (as a straight male I hated fashion and was studiously tough male. Today I love my en homme designer clothing and my stealth en femme designer clothing (no it doesn't fool the girls, just the guys, lol) It can be very interesting discussing whether oral contraception or pantyhose or Women's Lib caused mini-skirts to take off.in fashion (in fact they did not until another product, "GOGO" boots were introduced.. As a friend has pointed out, teenage music is often driven by balding, middle-aged businessmen in Hollywood offices (see Chubby Checker and The Twist) and men and women's fashions by gay designers.(do NOT see Ralph Lauren). We often do not know where our influences come from. Usually, however, they are social and economic. At a time when poor women labored outside, wealthy women had scrupulously pale skin (and less skin cancer). Today, poor women work and rich women have time to tan, so tanned skin is in. Before the 1940's, blue was the girls' color and pink the boys'. Now there is social pressure for you.