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More Enlightened Times???

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  • I work in a Government Department where the rules are strictly applied and adhered to. So I was just a little surprised at what passed for discussion yesterday. A colleague of mine ( a young man in his early thirties ) walked into the corner of the office where I work to talk to his friends, specifically a woman of a similar age. It wasn't a private discussion it was said for everyone to hear. His opening gambit was, " have you seen the tranny?" And the conversation went something like this:

    Man: " She's an ugly bitch "
    Wom:. " Yeah, she does look like a man "
    Man: " She ****
    Wom " Yeah, she has a partner. He also works in the department
    Man: " Who do you think gives and who receives
    Wom: " What? "
    Man: " Takes it up the **** "
    Wom: " Oh no I think she's transsexual "
    Man " So what's the difference they're all ***** quee
    Wom " She uses the ladies, she can do that. It's not right, and I know the girls don't like it "
    Man " Well he ain't welcome in the mens "
    Wom: " I know, we keep our backs to the wall, but what can you do?
    Man: " Well I know what I'd **** do.
    Exit left

    The conversation went on for longer than that but I think you get the drift. Neither of these people would dream of saying anything like this to the target of their abuse. No one who overheard the conversation demurred in the slightest and I include myself in this. I never said a word. I have overheard discussions like this on many occasions but never about a fellow work colleague. I was taken back by the vehemence of it. I came out once in a previous job and it made my life hell. I felt I was being talked about and was haunted by the whispers. I later convinced myself that I was a victim of my own paranoia. I now think I may have been right after all.

    So do we live in more enlightened times? The law has changed certainly but has the prevailing social attitude. Gay, tv and ts people are still figures of fun. The English rugby player Danny Cipriani, was recently mocked and made fun of for dating a transsexual. The same people who abuse us also like and find Julian Clary and Lily Savage funny. Whilst its alright for George Michael to be arrested in a public lavatory for soliciting ( good old George ) your neighbour would be ostracised for doing the same. It's okay for Dana International to win the Eurovision Song Contest but you wouldn't want to work with one. Hollywood can shower Oscar's on, frankly bad movies, like Philadelphia and Brokeback Mountain, but leading actors still fear coming out and remain firmly in the closet. Straight actors and actresses are invariably cast to play tv's and ts's because people wouldn't watch the movie if they felt their own sexuality was being threatened, To Wong Foo being a classic example. Why? Because the prevailing social attitude hasn't changed.

    I don't know the woman who was the topic of discussion. I work in a big office with 300 or so employees and I have never met her. Had I known her I would have stood up for her but I'm not conversant of all the facts. All I said later was that people are people whilst suddenly feeling very uncertain of myself. I'm sure, however, that she has to endure little if any abuse at work. She may even think that everyone accepts her as the woman she undoubtedly is. I know differently. People would lose their jobs if they expressed themselves honestly. The law can enforce tolerance but it cannot garner or guarantee acceptance. It is why we all have to stand together . What has been fought for and won can be just as easily taken away as long as acceptance still remains a dream.
    Porscha
      January 10, 2009 6:44 PM GMT
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  • Oh dear. What a shame but this is typically true. You can't control people's minds and sometimes legislation is resented because people are forced to accept what they don't want to. I believe that we should not tell people who/what we are but let them decide for themselves.

    I want to go full time but am frightened by the way I have heard people talk in my office about TVs/TSs. I also work on contract so my employer could lay me off citing lack of work so as to stay PC. I need the money to buy clothes, jewellery, shoes, etc. and live as we all do.

    Therefore I think it best to start anew if possible and not return to work transsexed as it opens up all these underlying problems.

    With toilets, etc it's best to use disabled loos if possible as this avoids the female worry that you can't tell if the person has male genitals or not just by looking at their outward appearance.
      January 10, 2009 7:06 PM GMT
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  • Here you go again Porscha, offering up another thought provoking post. Atleast this time it is you and not me bringing up this topic. I see this as mainly a UK and maybe euro issue for the sole reason I have brought stuff up before and I get replies from UK gals saying "but they can't discriminate here. " LOL, what a bunch of hogwash. What people say to your face might be one thing, but obviously as Porscha just posted, what is said behind your back is completely different. Atleast here in the U.S. you don't quite as easily expect people to be so nice to you so you prepare yourself for the worst.

    I don't see this as doom and gloom though. As long as gals out there represent TG's in a positive manor there will be people out there defending us. The same conversation Porscha posted could have easily had a third person say "You know what, She might be a transsexual but she is really a great person, you just don't know what you are talking about." That is what I have always meant when I discussed representing our community in a positive way.

    Hugs,
    Marsha


      January 11, 2009 1:40 AM GMT
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  • Marsha is absolutely right. In the UK we have laws protecting us, but it does not change the hearts and minds of people. When my partner and I formed a civil partnership we were treated with respect and kindness by the civic offices. However when we had to inform the housing association the manager demanded our birth certificates and proclaimed "so you are men!", of course nobody would have dared admit they heard her. However at a later date we required some information from her which a social worker ended up having to force her to give up. The social worker referred to us as "the two women" to which the manager sneered "well yes i suppose so". A formal complaint was registered in Novermber 2006, we have heard nothing since. Interestingly the manager has minority status also, we live in Wolverhampton where there is an extremely high level of ethnic people. Of all the people who one would expect not to discriminate and marginalise others it is a person who has experienced it themselves.
      January 11, 2009 2:39 PM GMT
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  • Well I don't know how this will be recieved, I have been informed on many occasions by freinds, when being hassled and
    whispered about, ''I'ts their lack of education, they don't know any better'' Perhaps it is, Is the subject transexual. ever broached in schools, seems homosexuality and lesbianism is breifly reffered to, BUT I went to a fee paying school. Attended
    by so called gentlemens sons. an all boys school. Words like ''shirt lifter'' ''poo jabber'' ''rugmumcher'' & ''geezer bird'' were
    used in everyday conversation when it came to discussing ones sexuality. These boys were not moronic retards, just bombastic cretinous youths, which on reflection, one could say, perhaps they are so unsure of their own sexuality they have to
    use abusive descriptive words and remarks to make it quite clear to their peers, where they stand and there should be no doubt
    about them being 100% staight. I have said in a previous thread, women on the whole are more accepting of men transitioning. Men. on the other hand have no understanding, in that the majority of them consider themselves as superior beings and cannot entertain that a man would want to climb down the ladder so as to speak.

    When a man finds himself in a situation where he can command attention and show his mascualinity per se, the attendant
    audience is imediately put at a disadvantage, with derogatory phrases like geezer bird and shirt lifter, no-one listening realy
    wants to enter into and argument in defense, if words like transexual or homosexual were used in the first instance, then perhaps the attendant audience would become more invoved in defending the subject person, its the nature of the remarks
    I think that initially makes people reluctant to argue. Its in the nature of the term being used, Geezer bird, the empasis on the geezer.

    Initiate a conversation with an opening phrase like FUGLY, One subconciously thinks, glad he, she, does'nt think I'm FUGLY, he, she is'nt talking about me, I'm not FUGLY thank god, straight away one tends to accept that person as an ally in the anti FUGLY
    scenario, because your not included and its a sunconcious boost to ones self esteem. Thats only my opinion of some, lol
    me I would probably slap the FINGRATE.

    xxXX Cristine XXxx
    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      January 11, 2009 6:43 PM GMT
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  • You are right Cristine, it is all about education. The problem is you can teach about it all you want in school but it will still take time for society has a whole to accept it. Look at the Gay and Lesbians, they have pretty much been accepted as part of society, yet they still have many of their own battles with homophobes. I have a friend who only told his parents he was gay about 5 yrs ago. He worried about being disowned and to some extent he was. I think the world as a whole tolerates us, but is far from liking us and I don't think there is any way of making them like us beyond us showing we are good people. And that will take time, perhaps decades. You can make all the laws in the world to protect us, that will do absolutely nothing to make people like us.
    Hugs,
    Marsha
      January 11, 2009 7:07 PM GMT
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  • I think this is pretty common to be honest. Yes, we are protected better by law by you can't stop a person airing their opionion, that's freedom of speech right? People will always have something against someone, be it gays, lesbians, TG people, blacks, asians, muslims and so on. Some people just need to feel superior to others. They are usually pretty moronic anyway.

    Personally, I couldn't care less what someone says behind my back, (given that I work on a military base, things ARE said), but so what, it doesn't bother me, it happens, that's real life. If anyone wants to say something face to face, fine, I can deal with that too.

    I don't see us as that different from any other ostracised or ethic group at all. There is always someone out there who will take a pop at someones' belief's, their lifestyle or whatever, you just have to get on with it because it's unlikely that you'll ever change their attitude.

    Nikki
    Every woman is beautiful, some show it with their faces, others show it with their hearts.
      January 12, 2009 1:38 PM GMT
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  • 1195
    Porscha - stupid people talk and unfortunately don't bother to listen to themselves. If those two, who you overheard, were comfronted by the person or persons they were "dissing" they would probably swear they never said anything. Why they had to broadcast their conversation is another mystery - could be they were looking for others who might wish to join in.
    When you think about it, we(society) haven't progressed much from the days of the "evil eye" - lynching - stoning and gang violence. Just last month a man, in New York City, was beaten to death by some idiots who thought he was gay.

    Perhaps, the stem cell research will be able to produce smart brain cells. The next problem will be getting the stupid people to accept help.

    <p>If it isn't fun - don't do it.</p>
      January 12, 2009 3:55 PM GMT
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  • Porscha,

    It's sad,but at the same time I can't say I'm particularly surprised. I realise that this will sound arrogant- but what the hell? Just one look at the newspapers your colleagues glance at during tea- and lunch-break should be enough. What supplies them with intellectual stimulation?Almost certainly the' red-top press' plus ,on Sundays,'The Screws of the World'. All of them renowned for their sensitive and sympathetic dealings with matters of sex and gender! If linking the cases of 'Shannon',Madeleine, and 'Baby P' with 'satanic rituals carried out by sex-change perverts' would increase their circulations then they'd print it! Journalism,and especially Serious Journalism is an alien concept as far as these 'newspapers' are concerned. I think it's 'The Daily Express' that's owned and run by a pornographer..............I recently read of an employment tribunal case where the judge referred to the staff of 'The Screws of the World' as liars........! It doesn't matter whether the esteemed colleagues have got first-class degrees or merely a couple of GCSEs- if they read it in The Sun/Daily Mirror/Mail/Express/Star/Sport etc then it MUST be true,mustn't it?

    And then there's the Telly........Big Brother,I'm a celebrity-get me out of here,etcetcetc.......talk about dumbing down!

    If the dialogue had at least been in some way original....................but I seem to remember hearing a lot of the comments (not aimed at me) ,oh,at least 30 years ago,and verbatim at that!

    Porscha,I realise that you may well read the red-top press yourself.....but,as a 'tranny-about-town',you know HOW to read it.

    It's all somehow a part of 'The System', has been for centuries,and will remain so as long as the boulevard press is allowed to keep old,stupid,senseless prejudices on the boil.

    Can't say that returning to the UK is high on my agenda.

    Ciao

    Lynn H.
    "It ain't what you do,it's the way that you do it............and that's what gets results!"
      January 12, 2009 4:53 PM GMT
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  • Porscha,

    I think you could put your earlier posting " The battle could still be lost...." in here since it seems to explain things quite well.

    ciao

    Lynn H.
    "It ain't what you do,it's the way that you do it............and that's what gets results!"
      February 6, 2009 2:50 PM GMT
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