Well, admittedly, I WAS being a bit sarcastic about that last part...

I watched a television discussion the other night on the immigrant experience. Now there have been any number of books and films written and made on the immigrant experience. That is, honest hard working people who have fled their homelands because of poverty, violence and threats of intimidation to make a better life for themselves abroad, and who can blame them for that. But is that the whole truth? Have you ever had to avoid the Romanian pickpockets in Oxford Street, do we ignore the Albanian involvement in the sex trafficking trade, the West Indian control of the drugs cartels, or Muslim terrorism? Of course, we cannot tar everyone with the same brush, and I wouldn't dream of doing so. I know that my family came from Ireland and that my name is of eastern European origin, so there was a time when my family were immigrants also. But it is that political correctness that angers me because it is fundamentally dishonest. We cannot say certain things because it would reflect on us badly for having done so. Like the slave trade, for which as a white girl I stand eternally condemned and for which I must make recompense, hold on, do we we truly believe that had the roles been reversed that black people would not have made slaves of white people? Or are they fundamentally good and we are bad? History doesn't teach us that. Without active black involvement there would have been no slave trade, and lets not forget the activity of the Barbary Pirates. Political correctness merely serves as a sop to the conscience of the middle-classes who use it as a source with which to alleviate their sense of guilt at a life of privelige whilst so many in the world are starving. There is nothing wrong in trying to improve your standard of living, which is after all, we are told, the essence of the immigrant experience. The simple fact is we live in a world of Nation States, whether you think that is right or wrong it is a fact. Governments are elected to defend the interests of their people. Barack Obama, was elected President of the United States not of the World. It is his job to protect and defend American interests and I don't doubt he will do so. Likewise, it is Gordon Brown's job (though it should be noted at this point that he wasn't elected to be PM by anyone) to defend ours. One other point, as a minority should we automatically support other minorities? Should we be more understanding? Okay, if I stand condemned as a result of this diatribe I will willingly take my poison, but I won't cow-tow to what is expected of me by others.

Interesting Porscha. I think what it comes down to is nobody wants to be responsible for anything. Automatically they look for someone else to blame if there is even the remote possibility a problem is going to arise. Obama has continued several of Bush's policies which now makes things OK but when they were Bush's, they were bad and everything down to the corner mugging was Bush's fault. Nothing new, someone else is always the scapegoat. Anyone but me, lol.
Hugs,
Marsha

Thanks Marsha, for your response. As you know from our many previous discussions your politics are not mine, though strangely we agree on many issues from entirely different perspectives. I would be the first to condemn George Bush, I think, however, that history will be kinder to him than we are at present. It wasn't always the case that what he did was wrong but how he did it. I guess, he will always be judged on his foreign policy but it is actually at home that he let the American people down.

I think society has taken political correctness way too far. The ultimate end of political correctness is an end of discussion, end of of debate, end of dialogue. By trying to be all-inclusive and treating all minorities with precious kiddy gloves, I think the ultimate effect is oppression. Don't even get me started on racially-based non-meritorious university scholarships.

In the West we're fortunate enough to enjoy freedom of speech and expression. To me that means everybody has the right to be politically incorrect, and even insulting, provided that the aim isn't to do harm. Jokes at the expense of a minority are acceptable if they are in good taste, at least I think so. I have no problem with Tranny jokes, for example.

I am half Chinese and half English and have no problem with Chinese jokes or Pommy jokes either lol. I grew up in Asia, and let me tell you, Chinese people are among the most blatantly un-PC people in the world. In Cantonese, white Europeans are called 'White Ghosts', blacks are called 'Black Ghosts', Indians are called 'Lousy Boys', and the list goes on. Cantonese swearing is also wonderfully imaginative, the insults ranging the entire gamut of existence - from damning somebody's lungs to telling your opposition that you hope his/her entire family falls down and dies, to saying that you'll engage in intercourse with their mum's foul-smelling private parts. Yes, these , and a whole range of similarly lovely phrases form the repertoire of many a Cantonese speaker. lol.

Hmm. I suppose none of those can hold a candle to the ultimate non-PC diatribe - Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses. It's one of the most boring books I have ever read, but one phrase has remained with me. It goes something like this:

"May the fleas from a thousand camels infest your anus..."

As for whether trannies should support other minorities purely because we are a minority, I say hell no. We should be understanding of other minorities because they are human beings, not because we ourselves are part of a minority. We should be just as understanding of the middle-aged white man with 2.5 kids and a mortgage and a $60,000 a year job as we are of trannies... easier said than done, I guess. Wait a sec... I'm starting to sound really PC there. Oh no! I can be such a hypocrite. My mind tends to fire in multiple directions!



luv

Alhana

Wendy - I never heard any statistics about LA but in the San Francisco bay area I was told there were 62 ethnic groups. That was in the late 1980s....the number has probably increased.
Please don't talk about PC - it brings back a memory of a man I met in San Francisco. He was from Samoa and was considered an "elder" since he was the son of a chief. He was waging a battle against the mistreatment of young women. Seems as though there was no such thing as sex education of young women. If the schools started mentioning sex ed the parents were up in arms. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
I do my best to treat all people as people - no labels (except for intelligence levels).
Someone once told me there was only one race -Human - I still believe it.

Now politics - that's a different story!

hugs
Gracie

OMG Cristine, that sounds like the type of conversation I would have loved to be in on. After we finished we could have used each others shoulders to cry on and repent together.

There is an old saying; If it has feathers, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, it most likely is a duck. Are we now in an era that we are suppose to play stupid and believe we see a hawk? They use to call that living in a fantasy. I'm bad, I'm sorry, I'm going to go get down on my knees and repent with Cristine now.

Hugs,
Marsha

Well, while we're on the subject of PC-ness...if you haven't heard of the sheriff in Arizona named Joe Arpaio, go to this link and look up and read his press releases. This is the same guy who makes prisoners wear pink undies, turns off the AC in Arizona heat, and allows like two TV channels....worth the time to look him up. Talk about straightening out the world's messes!

http://www.mcso.org/

Traci

I've read about him and I agree with him. Criminals are sent to prison as a punishment, not to have a vacation. And the Prime Minister of Austrailia? My sentiments exactly.

Another example of political correctness, maybe? Recently a 100 Rumanian Roma gypsy families were forced from their homes in Belfast. Now I'm not condoning intimidation in any way, after all I am part of a community that has had, and continues to have, more than its fair share. However, in no news item I saw was it mentioned that they were gypsies. Neither was it said why the local Irish population had turned against them to the extent that they no longer wanted them in their community. Merely that they were innocent victims, and indeed that may well again have been the case. Though it is unusual for there to be such a strong reaction against people in our midst without a reason. Then again, perhaps there are certain things that cannot be said.

I’m certainly no fan of ‘political correctness”. But, then, I’m on the other extreme. As an American Constitutionalist my concern is in the prevention of tyranny, not that I might hurt someone’s feelings. Rejection of tyranny implies, of course, that it is no one’s place to tell me what to think of others, what to say about others, how to feel about others… The only concern LEGALLY that is has with others is insuring that I give my neighbour the same respect that I expect to receive (thus preventing me from becoming the tyrant).

As far as issues of immigrants go… I grew up in Southern California where ILLEGAL immigration is a big problem. This, of course, colours the general perception of immigration in that region, and on me too. On the other hand, my own father was an immigrant (he moved to the USA from the Netherlands during his senior year of high school), which also had its effects on my personal view.
My dad learnt English so well that he now speaks it better than most people born in America. Involved with the local soccer league, he’s a respected member of his community. He has taken care of my mother since she became handicapped whenever I was 9 years old. He votes and in other ways is involved in civic activities. He’s a veteran of the United States Army. I could go on, but the point is that this is the image of an “immigrant” that I grew up with.
On the other hand there were the illegals from Mexico only a block away with 14 people living in a house made for 5…
To sum it up I would suggest that there isn’t necessarily an ‘immigrant question’ here. But there are issues with ILLEGAL immigrants which is a whole ‘nother thing! Unlike my dad these people are not paying into the tax system or in any other ways giving to the greater society. Yet my tax dollars are expected to cover them whenever they’re injured, to educate their children, and to feed them if things go belly up. What’s wrong with this picture?

PC? Don't go there with me.

First off, I am as un-PC as one gets in these parts. Second, it's all a bunch o' rubbish, used to try to not offend anyone and make sure we all get along. It is silly, and has gotten out of hand. I am NOT a Transsexual-American. I AM Transsexual...and I AM American. But putting me into that little tiny box, and trying to stereotype me is like dumping miso into a fish tank. It's not good for the fish and wastes miso. Next person refers to me as a "Euro-American" will not like the result. At this stage, there is nothing "Euro" that I want to claim; I have a family tree that shows my family's arrival here predates the US Constitution.

I'm white. So what? It's not like I had control over that. There was a time when we had slaves here in the US. Those days legally ended in 1865. That's 144 years ago. Heck, even if you look at the civil rights movement, that's 41 years ago. In 1968, I was...never you mind how old I was. My point is, is that I had nothing to do with either.

And frankly, I'm getting tired of hearing how it was all my fault. Kids can't vote. Instead, we accepted each other as equal, because by the time I was in high school it had been the law of the land for 20+ years.

Next up: Illegal immigrants. I am all for immigrating. Do it legally, and I will bust my buns to help you. Come here illegally--or worse, come under false pretenses and then disappear--and I get wind of it, and I will turn your buns in to DHS in two seconds flat. And I would expect the same treatment from you!

I firmly believe in treating others as I would want to be treated. (Most of the time, I am successful at this. Not always, but mostly.) I would walk a mile in your shoes, if they fit. (and if they aren't 6" stilettos.)

I'd better quit before I get too wound up.

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

Rae, hon--

Join the lodge, sweetie! We have problems here with uncontrolled numbers of "undocumented workers"

**gagging sound**

It amazes me that the answer to a part of our current economic mess (and I blame both sides here) is so easy: Hire a bunch of us in the DHS, so we can deport a bunch of illegal aliens, then there SHOULD be enough jobs--at least for now....

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

Nikki- if you move to Canada we might be… Well, almost neighbours! I’m currently trapped in the People’s Republic of Massachusetts; but I’ve made it my goal within the next year or two to ‘immigrate’ to the free state of New Hampshire (check out a map of the USA if you’re unclear on the geography). Right now I live approx a 20-minute drive from the New Hampshire border, so I do all my shopping there. But I’m too trapped by taxes and debt and taxes and regulations and taxes to make the final jump. Am working on that… But what the Hel… Maybe I could feed you a couple of my homemade beers or something like that :-)

Something most people fail to realize about the very term “politically correct”: This is a term that was established by the Red Army toward the end of the Maoist revolution used to justify re-education camps in China. The notion was later absorbed by left-wing revolutionaries in Central America and later spread to Europe, Canada, Australia and the USA. The concept revolved around ‘equality’ which, be ye not deceived, had nothing to do with religious, intellectual, or any other kind of equality aside from economic equality. If you practice a minority religion, a deviant sexual habit, or in other way show interests other than contributing economically you are no long considered ‘equal’. But as long as you contribute to GNP and consume like everyone else, well that means you are ‘equal’ which means ‘good’. How were people dealt with during the Sino Revolution that weren’t ‘equal’? Landowners and other ‘unequal’ people were either crucified in front of their neighbours or had wooden nails driven through their eyes. Yes, now THAT will bring ‘equality’!

Steve, sugah--

Sounds to me that will bring headaches, not equality....

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

I find this thread realy interesting having a few very good asian freinds. I buy them Divali cards and Indian sweets, for their celebrations, they send me christmas cards, a bottle of wine and Indian sweets. So why do some local councils ban the putting up of christmas lights and decorations in their shopping centres. In case it offends the ethnics. The Hindu's put on fantastic displays in Wembley during Divali, The muslems chant their prayers from the mosque towers on a friday, broadcast to one and all. All the Asian shops sell Christmas cards and Easter cards. We don't object, they don't object to our celebration displays, no its the PC Idiots in local goverments that think they will be offended. Which to my mind is a good recruitment initiative for the BNP. We allow them the freedom to follow their religions and traditions, they accept we have our own traditions, any that don't like it should not be here. PC has gone OTT.

xxX Cristine Xxx

Thats the last thing we need, more support for the Racist Bully-Boys of the BNP.....its just wong, end of!


Anna-Marie

I'm an ex-Christian with some very unflattering things to say about SOME Christians. Despite this, I LOVE Xmas decorations and have no objection to them in public places; in fact I applaud them. I would not if the Christian Right had more power than they do, however. I see both sides of this issue. I saw the things Catholics got that the rest of us did not when I was a child in school. They left education for religious education on Thursdays. I felt this wrong then and now. I felt it was a form of discrimination, despite preferring to stay in educational school. I was also forced to eat fish or nada on Fridays. This is where religion takes too much and what those objecting to public religious displays probably fear. Someone should have sat on Hitler in the early thirties, not after the SA and SS and Gestapo were making their rounds. If you don't believe that Christians would do this, check out the marriage laws in CA this year. They would, can and did force their religious beliefs on the rest of us. Religious discrimination, plain, pure and simple. As far as I am concerned a violation of my freedom to worship........or not to worship.

I am not a lover of PC as it has ruined so many good things. All that nonsense about not being able to flag the British flag in your own garden (and in your own country) because you might upset someone, what utter rubbish. Sorry, but if they find it offensive then I suggest that they leave the country on the next flight. I'm pretty sure I know what the answer would be if I went to the German government and asked them to remove their national flag because as a non German I find it offensive...................

I had a very good black friend who was completely offended when he found himself reclassed as 'coloured'. I remember him saying 'I'm not coloured!! I'm black!' Coloured to him meant purple, blue, green etc.

As for immigrantes, well, I pretty much am one in Germany albeit temporarily and I do have issues with them too. Certainly there are many immigrants who are decent people, no different from anyone else, and deserve everything they have acheived for themselves and their families. Unfortunately, however, there are those who also use their 'minority' status as a trump card to get them exactly what they want. I have worked side by side with people like that and it's really annoying. They don't want equality, they want it better than the rest of us.

The BNP in the UK is acting in a similar fashion to the Nazi's in the 20's, who were seen as something of a joke. However, by clever campaigning and by blaming others (mostly the jews) for their countries state, they began to get support and, well, we all know what happened next. All they wanted was a better Germany, for Germans after all, is it any wonder decent Germans voted for them?.

I'm sure the BNP just want a better England as well........................

Nikki

oooooops, just re-read my post, was'nt exactly clear, when I said PC in local goverment, being a good recruitment initiative for the BNP, I actually meant causes a negative reaction in the local populance that causes resentment in an indirect way. Pushing some to join the BNP to reinforce what they regard as a restriction of their rights to appease the ethnic imigrant population. As far as flying the flag, I personally would'nt fly the Union jack, for fear of getting bricks through our windows, by the other extremists, Hard enough being a tranny without being OTT with the patriotism. Still after the last few days, All I have to say is I know nothing. So dont Ask.

xxX Cristine Xxx

Ewwwww, Nikki, just be sure you (nobody) ever call an American "colored". Some are fine with Black and some insist on African-American, but colored goes back to the sixties and earlier in the pre-Civil Rights period and is fairly unacceptable, even around Anglos (we aren't White anymore because that now officially includes Hispanics so it's Anglos...at least in L.A. where we are experiencing being a minority.) Anyway, it could get someone stomped or popped in the wrong place at the wrong time.

If ever anyone asks me to on the topic of 'Nothingness' I will pass them on to Cristine Shye...and cover that belly up it is so 2008...LOL

Ugly Salman used a mirror to get inspiration for that line...

and he used the British Government funds to pay the millions it took to keep him safe after the book came out...

My adendum ''I know nothing. so don't ask'' refers to some remarks and advice I gave in the chat room, which I personally thought were valid and inteligent, well considered reponses to somones approach to life as a ''Tempory TS on mones, intending to revert back at a later date and get married'' when I was told by several individuals I should realy mind my own business and I did not know what I was talking about.

Cristine.


PS. I'm on my knees, paying pennance and seeking absolution for my un-PC outburst.

Excuse me? a temporary TS? How the heck does that work? You might as well be 'temporarily black', (and micheal jackson is the only one that applies to). You either are TS you aren't, I understand if they meant they ARE TS but without an intention to follow it through to surgery, but .......... oh hell, I'm going to stop now, I can't even figure myself out much less anyone else.

Room for another one to repent her sins?

Nikki

Wendy - it's madness isn't it? I have stopped filling out any part of a form that requests ethnicity, age, or gender since I don't believe for one minute that any of those things should matter in the slightest. (Okay, exceptions are for passports etc where it is a legal requirement but you know what I mean).

Now to get back on track a little, I think that the government needs some politicians who aren't afraid to make some harsh and unpopular decisions for the sake of the country, although personally I think the UK long ago reached the tipping point and cannot be saved anymore. No one is coming through who has the 'balls' to do anything except maintain the Status Quo, or worse, add more idiotic laws and legislations.

Nikki

I remember vaguely reading or seeing an article of some rhetoric from the Australian, priminister, which in essence said:-

''Oppressed and subjugated in your homeland, welcome to Australia, you can have your traditions, religions and customs,
BUT do not ridicule, object or curse us for our customs and traditions, obey our laws, if you don't like it, Then you can piss off back to where you came from''

Condemmed by most of the leaders of the western world. As one of the most outrageous un-PC comments ever made by a leader of a civilised country,

Is that un-PC? or just saying how it is. Just asking Cos I realy do know nothing, lol

But one thing I do know there is a lot of unwanted apeasment in the UK by politicians, unwanted by the ethnics or the indigenous population.

xxX Cristine Xxx

PS, just been informed, that the start of it all began when Sihks were given dispensation from wearing crash helmets when riding motor bikes???

I remember that piece about the Australian PM and thought he had it exactly right. Needs more people like that in my opinion.

Nikki

I think he has the right idea on how to run prisons, it's not supposed to be fun after all. Bring on more like him, the only people who need fear it are those who choose to break the law.

Nikki

Enforcing the laws written by the elected officials of the People...is that PC? Who does he think he is? The elected Sheriff?

I'll confess I've not taken the opportunity to read this thread all the way through - I appreciate my sanity...

But, it was mentioned about the Romanians being attacked in Northern Ireland and the lack of news coverage with regard to the fact they were gypsies etc. I have to state that every report I saw - be it on terrestial tv, online or read in the papers or heard on the radio, fully reported that they were Romanian Gypsies and all covered race issues and the way immigration en masse - as promoted by the UK government - was underlining the problem.

As has probably been said on this thread, for the UK at least, the problem is certainly not immigration - without which so many would be unemployed [just think of the New Look retail chain] - but the sheer unrestricted and uncontrolled numbers our government has been happy to let in.

Rae x

For me, immigration isn't an issue, if it's done correctly. After all, I'm an immigrant myself right now! But I could only come here knowing I had work, housing and a means to support myself so the state, of which I have never been part of, doesn't have to get their citizens to support me instead. Seems fair to me.

I have also been looking into emmigrating to Canada as well, and once again, your background, education and finances are looked into before they decide whether you are accepted. I believe it's the right way to do things.

The other side of the coin is those escaping tyranny. Okay, I accept that they may not be able to 'prove' themselves before being allowed in, and something should be done to assist them, but then so many others are using the system to scam their way in and bleed the taxpayers dry! From what I can see, the problem is only getting worse, not better. But then I have to say that I think the UK has had it. It's reached the tipping point and gone over and it's too late to fix it now. UK society as it was is in the past and the future isn't bright. Thanks to political correctness, laws that give the perpertrator of a crime more rights than the victim and a bunch of other legislation. Not to mention weak politicians too afraid to change anything.

Grrr! I'm so mad now just thinking about this.

Nikki