Just to start a new thread and for sure it’s a repeat but it can never be mentioned often enough?

This is a compiled list of effects of using oestrogen and things that hormones will do to you physically:

1) it will in most cases induct growth of breasts

2) it will enlarge your nipples and areola

3) it might do redistribution of body fat over a long period of time to a female pattern

4) it might do thinning of skin, with related translucency and softness

5) it will give decreased libido

6) it will reduced muscle development

7) it might significantly reduced body hair

8) it will make change in body odor and sweat production

9) it will make less prominence of veins when thin fatty layer under skin develops.

10) it might make ocular changes, which can cause a problem. (mine changed a lot)

11) it will make gonadal size smaller

12) it will cause prostate to shrinks

13) it will make the bladder shrinks which can be really annoying (it did happen to me)

14) it will make the line that runs down the underside of the penis and down the middle of the scrotum (peno-scrotal raphe) to become darker (it’s the one where the urogenital folds fused early in the womb)

15) it might make water retention likely

16) it might over time make hips rotate slightly forward due to changes in the tendons so hip discomfort is not uncommon.

17) it will decreased insulin sensitivity, meaning higher risk of diabetes

18) it might give higher risk gall bladder disease.

19) it might make face to become more rounded over time, as fat accumulates

20) it might make changes to the way the brain actually works that are irreversible, resulting in varying shifts in the way you think and react and feel but in my opinion it’s the signalling to the brain that are actually changing.

xxx Natalie

This is very useful Natalie. Thanks for posting it.

There are enough "mights" in there that I can pretty much go along with what Natalie said. I believe the smaller bladder is actually what is called overactive bladder and the size is not really the issue. Drinking too few fluids can reduce the size of the bladder for anyone, male or female.

Another might is something someone else brought up in another thread, you might find your sexual orientation change on you. This point is argued over often but that just points out it does come up frequent enough that there just might be something to it.

A lot of the things on Natalie's list could be caused by underlying issues and not have anything to do with HRT. Or HRT just exacerbated the underlying symptom.

Everyone needs to realize that none of the medications MTF's take were designed to do what we take them for. We take them for the side effects related to each medication. Therefore the primary effect or even additional side effect can affect each of us differently. I think that is what it really comes down to when you discuss hormones. Each medication has its original desired effect and often a multitude of side effects. Each of us is different.

Hugs,
Marsha

Yes that's the way it works... "it might" should been on all points and I tend to look at myself to see what happened to me over the years on hormones etc. and even though I'm fine, the worse parts that did happen was changes to my eyes and bladder.

I used to be graphic designer and did stop because at the end I were two glasses on top of eachother while in daily life I use just my normal glasses. Because it changed so fast I also had it checked and basically the conclusion was just it's an side effect of using hormones.

As long as I don't get problems with diabetes or gall bladder, then I'm OK

Where I did get the list from? In fact if you’re on hormones you need to know what you’re doing and such information is collected. Beside this, you gain huge experience based on your own condition while taking hormones, you somewhat get know-how in the same way as other girls in here has, not by just reading but real life experience which is the truth and nothing by the truth.

xxx Natalie

Stephanie, LOL. What can I say, even I have the occassional lucid thought. Maybe this will be a continuing side effect of being on HRT, LOL.
Hugs,
Marsha

Sure information given should be right but Stephanie it will for sure be some that says one thing against another. It has always been and always will be that way, but for me this is a fact no matter what Mr Bellringer says and I'm sure I'm not alone on this. Not saying he's wrong about his comment to you but I think 100% sure he never made any research about it so as for his side, it's more or less a pure guess while for my side it's a fact and it's not something I would argue about. Don’t forget we live in a real transitioning world and are not dreamers or do we live in fantasies? So for now until it can be proven otherwise it stays.

Fact are though that the physiological capacity of the male and female bladder is about 500 ml but the fact to the bladder shrinkage could be that while on HRT you change the habit of urination and it this way it has a direct bearing on the size of the bladder which mean if we has the habit of urinating frequently, we may be uncomfortable retaining the average amount which means if oestrogen makes you urinate more frequently the bladder will shrink…

xxx Natalie

Crisitine,
May I be kind enough to ask, "Is there anything else you would like to add?"
Hugs,
Marsha

Cristine,
Someone had to say it, better you than me. I always get in trouble if I start saying that kind of stuff, lol. But honestly I do agree with a lot of what you said and for that matter what Rose just said. There are so many what ifs along with the fact there really hasn't been that much research into what are all the effects on MTF's who are on HRT.
Hugs,
Marsha

A safer alternative if you don't want to see a doctor is to use pueraria mirifica and a natural progesterone cream. I have used them for 9 months and am now an A-cup and my butt grew nice and round also. I had much more feminization then I expected and love the changes! I plan on staying on them for the rest of my life.

There is one thing which oestrogen(+/-progesterone,testosterone blocker etc.) by itself will NOT do...........it will NOT make you pass!It may help in attaining 'passability',but it's just one component in a complex,in many ways mental,process.


Lynn

I was going to say it pretty much like Lucy just said. Bio-identical meds have nothing to do with being organic or natural in nature, but as Lucy pointed out, identical in molecular structure. In this case the manufactured product identically matches the molecular structure of estradiol 17B, or what lab tests refer to as E2. Often what a chemical manufacturer does is isolate the molecule they want and identify the structure. Next they try to find other organisms with a similar structure and in various ways tweak those molecules to match the desired structure. This may involve adding or removing atoms. That is why you can't drink horse urine or eat numerous plants and get the same estrogen effect.

Herbal products are generally derived from plants or substances that have estrogenic properties, similar in structure to estradiol. However herbal products don't involve the sophisticated isolation of the active molecule, hence, drinking pregnant horse urine instead of taking premarin or eating a veggie meal instead of estratabs.

Almost more difficult and even more important then creating the bio-identical med is creating it so it will be absorbed in the bloodstream and dispersed throughout the body to fill the matching receptors. Absorption levels of the different formulations vary immensely. Injections provide the highest in the 80-90% absorbtion range whereas oral tablets are absorbed in the 20-30% range. You will hear terms like valerate, cypionate, ethinylestradiol and others. Each is a different formulation with varying delivery systems to ultimately allow man derived chemicals to enter the human body and be absorbed into the circulatory system. Each is different and that is why 2mg of Sandrena Gel is equivalent to aprroximately 6mg of an oral tablet or 5mg estradiol cypionate IM is equal to approximatel 40-50mg of estradiol valerate IM. It is all about the delivery efficiency and life span that differentiate the many products.

Hope that is not too confusing.

Hugs,
Marsha

There are lots of myths on both sides of the aisle for and against what are called bio-identical hormones. Typically the biggest issue is whether or not bio-identicals are safer. I don't think anyone here is arguing that point and for me, I believe any foreign substance introduced into the body will carry a risk. But one thing the anti bio crowd misrepresents at times is that bio-identical hormones are synthetic and depending on the definition of synthetic you use they are or they are not. If you want to say anything man made is synthetic, then I guess you can label bio-identicals as synthetic. But if you put bio-identicals under a microscope and look at the molecular structure, indeed they are identical.

Complaints about bio-identicals are often about the promises or marketing techniques compounding pharmacies make about them. Basically inflated claims on safety and how these are the "cure-all" for whatever ails a woman. I think most can agree those claims don't sound proper.

Bio-identicals cannot be patented, therefore manufacturers look at other ways to market their products to draw attention and appeal for their drug. Another way for pharmaceutical companies to make money is to intentionally create a synthetic product that offers many of the characteristics of a bio-identical but fails to completely match the molecular structure, therefore making the product patentable. Premarin is probably the most well known example of a synthetic.

Hugs,
Marsha

You are kind of splitting hairs Lucy but that is OK, we all love you. Yes premarin is made from natural pregnant mare urine so in that sense it is identical to its source but it is not identical to the human estradiol 17b. Actually Premarin is the weaker E1, estrone. Cenestin is the synthetic form of Premarin derived from plants. Conjugated estrogens are sodium salts of estrogen sulfates and apparently act on receptors the same as endogenous estrogen.

Here is the pharmacology label for Premarin: http://www.wyeth.com/cont[...]?id=131

And yes, somewhere along the line it was determined the human body cannot be patented. So we are back to bio-identicals and what it comes down to in order to make money on the drugs is create something that distinguishes them from others. Often it comes down to a catchy phrase or just putting the name out in front of people like the crazy magazine ads and TV commercials.

My definition of a foreign substance is anything added to the body that it would not otherwise naturally contain. Therefore whether a multi-vitamin or my Estradiol Cypionate (17b), it is an addition to my body. Your argument would say consuming a piece of fruit is not a foreign substance because the body processes it into a useful form. If you want to split hairs, you need to acknowledge injectables, tablets, or gels all have a carrier made up of inert ingredients that are not bio-identical to the human body. Now we get back to patents and the makeup of the carrier can be patented if there is something unique about it, ie., Climara's U.S. patent runs out in 2010.

More Hugs,
Marsha

First off, more hugs Lucy. Probably early on instead of saying Premarin was synthetic, which I actually copied from some website, I should have just stated it was not bio-identical to anything in the human body.

As for the makeup of Premarin, I know it contains more than just Estrone and that is why I posted the manufacturers link. The thing is Estrone is the primary estrogen in Premarin and their lab tests on absorbency all reflect Estrone levels. The word conjugated literally means a bonding of multiple compounds which Premarin most definitely is.

I don't think I ever exactly said you said Premarin was bio to human estrogen. Sorry to appear to put words in your mouth. I used the line about not being bio to bring the conversation back to the estradiol 17b topic which I know you agree premarin is not estradiol 17b.

I still consider any medication to be a foreign substance. Simply put you can not take an estradiol pill and rub it on your skin and expect it to work, or take injection or gel forms and swallow them expecting results. Therefore they are a foreign substance and have to be properly administered to get the active ingredient into the bloodstream. Just my opinion. You are still welcome to have yours, lol.

Besides, like you Lucy, I agree bio-identical is a good thing.

Lots and lots of hugs,
Marsha

<---watching this thread with great interest....keep it going as Rae mentioned, we're learning a lot! Thanks in advance Lucy and Marsha!!!

Traci

Rae and Traci, thanks for your kind remarks. I think a friendly debate like Lucy and mine helps clarify topics for everyone. In the end I think the only thing Lucy and I differ on is what is a foreign substance and in the big scheme of things that is pretty irrelevant. Sometimes I find myself needing to race out the door but a comment sparks my attention and I feel the need to respond in the short time I have available. I don't always proof read as well as I should and it is nice that someone as great as Lucy can come along and make corrections with tact. Obviously I respect Lucy immensely and know we don't need to agree on everything to remain friends.

I believe one of the key things that everyone should take from this is there are many forms of estrogen and whichever one someone chooses they need to know the proper use of that individual medication. So to hear a dosage of 1.25mg of premarin and apply it to estrofem will in all likelihood leave you wondering why things are not going well. Likewise a 20mg/2wk dose of estradiol valerate IM does not translate the same to any other estrogen product Natalie started off this thread with a number of effects, both good and bad, caused by the use of estrogen products. There is no reason estrogen medications when properly used can't be taken with only minimal risk. Whether you have a doctor or self medicate, knowing both the good and bad effects of estrogen use will allow you to have better results with reduced risk.

Hugs,
Marsha

Wow this thread has grown larger and wider then I originally thought was possible but let me give some input to what said…

1) Urine tract infection is often caused by gram negative and/or E.colli bacteria’s. One reason for this is that transsexuals so often keep their penis backward so the urine tract opening in closer to the anal part where the e.colli bacteria’s stays and in this way find its way up to places where it should NOT be. In many ways this also translates to why more females have UTI compared to males as also most TS has a shorter penis than what they used to have so bacteria’s has also a shorter path to travel and cause harm. Recurrent UTI is also more likely for M2F TS's.


2) Lucy is right about herbal hormones as their chemical structure is not the same at all but just to add here is that they bind to oestrogen receptors because compounds found in herbal products has a very widely different chemical structure but the molecular size and shape are approximating those found in steroid oestrogen and possess at least two oxygen-containing substances widely spaced within the molecule whereas one of these being a Phenolic Hydroxy and the other being a Phenolic Hydroxyl, Alcohol Hydroxyl, Carboxyl or Keto-group. So that they are bio-identical is as false as it can be but that they bind to oestrogen receptors and close same as bio-identical hormones in such matter is true… but they can NOT be measured in regular blood tests and oestrogen level will therefore not be shown.

Marsha just forgot that herbal hormones can be made mironized and that is done so the body can react on them as it was “real” hormones. The “matching of hormones by it’s receptors is just partly true as the “matching” is done by proteins, peptides, and modified amino acids and without the right G protein the matching will never happen.

3) For the limbo is pretty simple; The biggest sex organ is your brains so that explain it all. For me oestrogen has just made me stop thinking of sex so I also don’t care of my limbo. I know I could do anything with it but that is only IF I wanted to but I just don’t want and as far as I know Marsha is the same way with it and others as well. So you might not loose your limbo but you loose the way you used to think of sex. I can think of sex but it has no sexuality in it… more like thinking of a chair… haha

4) I’m so with Rose… Its only people transitioning that knows for sure about the bladder issue and if we must pee, then we must and we can’t keep it in the same way as males do and I can sign under on that one. I also asked girls at work and they say the same thing… if we must pee we must and we must do so far more often then what the males have to. So I give Rose a 10er for that one. Females has also more organs that pushes on the bladder but if the bladder drops down, the TS will also have the same effect on the bladder as females has.

5) I don’t think bio-identical hormones are safer Marsha because hormones in it self is just part of a complex system so if you don’t activate the full life-cycle of hormones and their actions, bio-identical hormones can be as dangerous as any other hormones which tells me that mono-therapy with hormones are and always will put anybody on a danger.

xxx Natalie on a rainy vacation...

Natalie, I'm not sure if you were suggesting I said bio-identical hormones are safer because if you follow any threads in regards to hormones you will find I am the least likely person to call hormones safe. I believe I made it clear in my last post in this thread that having knowledge of both the good and bad effects of hormones will allow for better results with reduced risk. I don't necessarily equate reduced risk to mean safer because it is dependent on the user's knowledge and the product, not solely the product.

As for libido, I do think the brain has a lot to do with it in conjunction with hormones. I take both finasteride and bicalutamide. Each of these list decreased libido as a side effect. Therefore I would not necessarily say estrogen impacts libido, but rather anti-androgens are more of an influence on libido. Lucy is post-op and doesn't need these, lucky girl.

Absorbtion is the key to any medication or vitamin supplement. Just because you can swallow a pill does not mean your body can make use of it. Also there is no guarantee 1mg of a 1mg medication will be absorbed, actually it is unlikely and manufacturers account for that in their recommended dosage. Don't forget other factors such as consuming coffee, tea or chocolate as they will impact absorption.

Hugs,
Marsha

Well, you should just know that woman also use Finasteride so "Lucy is post-op and doesn't need these, lucky girl." might not be so right not saying she need it but you know...

My point is just that without oestrogen receptors oestrogen will not do a thing for you so just make sure you treat your receptors right and the results will come. Also note that too much oestrogen will have a negative effect on receptors as well as they will cause more problems.

xxx Natalie

Lucy hit on a very important point when she said everyone has estrogen receptors and they can be filled by estrogen or any number of estrogenic herbs or chemicals. This is where the quality and dosage become relevant. There are only so many receptors and as the body produces estrogen or in a MTF's case estrogen is supplemented, the estrogen molecules circulate through the body filling the receptors and any excess leaves your bloodstream and is disposed of in your waste. The different formulations like tablets and patches have what is called a half life which is the period the medication stays active in your system. The half life of a tablet is very short and explains why tablets are usually taken multiple times per day whereas gels usually once daily, injections and patches provide more of a constant time release supply that can last days if not weeks.

But back to what Lucy said about any number of estrogenic forms can fill the receptors. Being that the body only has X number of receptors, taking weak herbal form of estrogen is just as likely to fill the receptors as self produced or higher quality prescription estradiol medication. If a MTF taking prescription estrogen decided to also take a herbal to supplement the estrogen it is actually possible for her to have decreased results because the two forms of estrogen end up competing for the same receptors.

This should answer a lot of gals questions about herbals. Sure they can work, but the problem is that they are such a weaker form of estrogen that it typically requires a high dose taken multiple times a day to fill enough receptors to make a difference. In most cases this is very costly, when instead, a prescription product provides a much higher quality product, both stronger and having a longer half life (my opinion of course.)

And Lucy, yes I also only take finasteride for the effect on scalp and body hair. Finasteride even at higher doses is a weak anti-androgen, but none the less an anti-androgen.

Hugs,
Marsha

wow, this was a high mix of info that I would name nothing else then milkshake.

For the bladder I know it changes for me and I know it might change for you and I also think that shrinkage of organs due to oestrogen and anti-androgen might do so the bladder drops down leaving less space for it to be filled up or organs starts to push on it so it gets more urgent to have a pee.

Now for Finasteride I’m with Lucy and I’m not considering it to be an anti-androgen at all even though Dihydrotestosterone or DHT belongs to androgens but if Marsha wants to name it anti-androgen then it’s fine for me but as far as I know, Finasteride will not reduce your testosterone levels at all which other anti-androgens does.

For me the most important issue of taking Finasteride is to loose muscle mass as it play a crucial role in the growth of muscle tissue and not against hair loss. As a result, Finasteride will help in smoothing out your body shape and cover up your bone structure. You will definitely look less male when muscles are lost.

Sure everyone has both Alpha and Beta oestrogen receptors but it’s also true that muscles don’t contain such receptors but fat does. So basically as more fatty body you got as more oestrogen receptors you will have and its not fixed at all. You need to know how it really works to really say you know anything about it.

Oestrogen hormones from plastic and pollution are only gimmicking oestrogen and are so named “weak” oestrogen’s and rubbish really. They are however called environmental estrogens or Bisphenol A (BPA).

Herbs can be up to 70% of “ordinary” oestrogen “strength” so sure it would work, it’s just depends on what kind of herbal products you take. For oestrogen I use injections myself but I would never go and say that herbs don’t work because it’s well know that they work and I know people using herbs with perfect results. The problem with herbs is just that not all herbs has the same chemical structure so what is “herbs”?

Also keep in mind that you can buy herbs online that can be of really poor quality so how do you know that you get what you pay for? Also enzymes can’t convert every herbs to useful hormones so they are not always what they are claimed to be as in fact your body can’t utilise them at all. A key rule for taking herbal hormones is that you should know what’s best for you and generally herbal hormones are far, far safer to take then any other hormones mentioned in this thread. Herbs also help against so many other body functions and are often categorised as food supplement.

I’m not with Lucy about oestrogen receptors are not important because the oestrogen in your body that are damaging to you is the free oestrogen that did not bind to any receptors and I call them for noise. High doses of oestrogen can also make the receptors “tied” so the oestrogen is no longer able to bind to the receptors due to lack of the protein needed so it’s far from true that it’s only temporary as you can make a huge damage to the transport system.

Also I’m not with Marsha that the body has only X number of receptors because that is impossible to be true but for sure you need to take care of the receptors you have and even anti-androgens does not reduce the amount of androgen receptors so what’s happening with them when there is nothing or little to bind to them?

Natalie, let me clarify what I mean with X number of estrogen receptors. I am not suggesting you are only born with so many and that will never change, instead I am referring to at any given moment you have a given number of receptors and once those are filled the excess estrogen molecules are flushed out in your waste once they reach their half life. A medications half life represents how long it will stay active in the system circulating through the body seeking out a matching receptor. That is where one a day, twice daily, and other doses come from. So taking a twice daily dose all at once instead of morning and night will not have the same effect on the body as splitting the dose.
Hugs,
Marsha

Rose you made my day!!!! In fact I believe both Lucy and Marsha has also the Natalie-Rose Syndrome but maybe it's not that much noticeable in the same way as not all females are suffering from it. When I mentioned this thread to some girls at my work they was 100% behind me and said they also believed that there must be changes once we are on hormones. Now because we have some customers at our salon that is TS, I will ask them all what they think about this issue and if they are with us, then Natalie-Rose Syndrome is a fact.

Because I had some problems with my heap/back bones when I was in my teens, I will see if I can find those old x-rays to see if anything is visible on them and if it is, I will make some new once to see if there is any changes but maybe the bladder will not be visible on x-rays anyway?

But the fact is for sure that there are changes to the bladder so the question is; if it did change for Rose and myself, who else in TW have Natalie-Rose Syndrome? Beside this, its well know that both colour and smell of urine changes while on hormones so it this changes why should not this also effect other functions of the bladder system?

Hold on girls, I didn't put up a big argument about bladder size, just that there is a common issue called overactive bladder. I would have to say that I am open minded about the possibility of bladder shrinkage, however, personally I consider it a who really cares issue. For me there are probably two main categories I pay attention to dealing with transition. The most important one being my health, can I have a long healthy life. Second is probably the visible physical aspects of transition, which in a way relates to both physical and mental health. So if my bladder still functions properly, which it does after over 4 years on HRT, I could honestly careless if it shrinks. Besides if there are doctors saying it doesn't, then if any shrinkage actually does occur, it must be a pretty minimal amount to not raises any concern with the medical personnel. BTW, the two of you can keep your NRS, I'm not so sure I want my name associated with peeing more frequently, lol.
Hugs,
Marsha

I would have to say that though the list is comprehensive, each point should say 'It might...'

As in, 'It might do any, or all, or none of these, depending on an individual's physiognomy, phyiology and psychology, and age'.

Most people will, as it says, benefit / suffer from some of the 'symptoms', though I suspect the traditional 'Bell Curve' will apply, with some people getting nothing at all and some getting all of them!

I fell more or less in the middle, and got most of the good and few of the less desirable ones.

Sheeeeeesh, ''MIGHT'' can be assimulated with the word 'IF'' Given the right genetic engineering IF it was available, Pigs MIGHT fly.

Ref Steffys post, Firstly, Mr Bellringer is a proffessor in urology, and has as private practices at the Wimbledon Parkside hospital, another one in Central London and heads up the CX gender surgery team at CX, Probably one of the UK's top surgeons in his field. The bladder is a bit like the stomach, it expands and contracts to accomodate input, never heard of hormones causing shrinkage, if somone has this problem I would suggest
its otherwide related.

Libido, being affected by mones, not in all cases. so cancel Will as being a definative.

All the mights of encouragement, Marsha is quite correct, bless her, all the treatments handed out to girls transitioning rely on the side effects of these drugs, I'm not aware of any designer drugs soley dedicated to M to F transitioning, (obviously not enough returns, money wise, to invest in the research and development of such drugs.

Further to the might be plus side effects there are many more negative side effects that occur. This is why, a full physical medical check up, blood testing etc should be carried out prior to embarking on a hormone regime, Regular tests and monitoring so that the combinations, types and dosages can be more suitably tailored to ongoing treatment to gain maximum safe results and minimise detrimental health problems that might occur.

Just one of the negative side effects one MIGHT come across is ME, Myalgia Encephalomyelitis, Cronic fatigue syndrome from which seems I have been suffering for some time, Although this has not been linked directly to my homone regime. Although I eat a very healthy balanced diet, my red cell blood count is lower than normal, this could also be related to occasional sessions of binge drinking, so we will have to see.

As to the losing of body hair, depends on each individual, same with breast development and all the other mights. I saw a very interesting programe on Warewolf syndrome, where children as young as 6 have humungous hair growth, all over their faces and bodies, several of these were placed on HRT and monitored for some considerable time, and the varying treatments were found to have no noticable lasting effect in restricting or reducing hair growth at safe dosages.

I have heard so many funny stories in the chat room, Like 6 months on hormones and being able to lactate, the ability after surgery to gush copious amounts of fluid upon orgasm, copious I take to mean a least a cup full? Somone being refered for hormones so they can develope breasts. but wanting to revert back to a male role when they achieve their aims and find a woman to marry that wants a man with breasts, On several occasions I have been pm'd in the chat room, individuals not satisfied with the speed of their progress, asking me if the mones I am on are only available privately because they want to look like me. Ar'nt these people geting the right information and guidance from their specialists?

Now we go onto the mones change brain waves, This is unproved, If you are diagnosed with GID and transitioning, then as you move along through the varying stages you will adopt the role of female and start hopefully thinking and reasoning more like a woman, Several occasions I have heard people doing this claim, that they will remain hetro prefering women?? WTF, Logically if you think like a woman and ''IF'' the hormones are taking effect, you will logically be looking to form relationships with a man, to me that would make for being HETRO. otherwise a person would class themselves as a latent lesbian. Not that I'm saying you should be either, we are all different, i know several girls that are completely asexual.

I also saw another programme regarding attachments to the DNA chain, I won't pretend to understand it, but basically, research has shown that attachments to an individuals DNA stucture makes certain people more libable to smoke, to become alcoholics, render them more susceptable to varying diseases. and induce latent homosexuality, therefore it could be concluded that there is an attachment that induces GID and leanings towards
transexualism and gender dysphoria,

Oh and to the person with the two children that came back to me, two days later after the discussion on Reifensteins and AIS, stating they had been to the doctors the day before and been diagnosed with the same condition, I would ask your wife who the childrens father is?

Everybody is different, one persons cure could be another person poison. a case of rush in now repent at leisure.

xxXCristineXxx

I'll add something: never trust the word of anyone who binge drinks... LOL

Actually its as well to remember that the 'estrogen' we take is not the same as natural female estrogen...so whether its derived from vegatables/horse pee or a chemical works it ain't the same ...so logically it will/may/could have different effects on different people.

re the bladder shrinkage theory I have to say 'why not?'...if penis and testicles and Cowpers Gland and Seminal vesicles diminish then just maybe everything in the genito-uro area changes...and for that matter are there any changes in the muscles around the groin/lower abdomen? We certainly lose top body muscles so why not lower too? Has anyone ever figured out how to check? Has anyone ever felt it necessary to check all the tiny body changes that occur in sexchange?

I had an awful dream last night...I was having to move the washing machine and got some grease on my fingers that ingrained and I couldn't scrub it out even with hot water...LOL ...not the sort of dream I want to be having...

Marsha, can you think of anything else I should add somthing I neglected to say other than the rubish???? I have already written, lol.

Changing my name

signed, ......what the hell do I know..

Oh yes, a conundrum, yesterday over the space of a couple of hours, I ingressed 1.5 ltrs of 7 up, some several hours later went for a pee, gubber I neglected to return it to the bottle just to measure just how much my bladder did hold, but it was definantely more than 500cl. The only thing I am grateful for is that I did'nt have a sneezing fit in the meantime. But I would suggest that James Bellringer does know what he is talking about.


signed....what the hell do I know.

PS, the person having their surgery next week to be carried out by doctor Supporn at his LA clinic, erm, i would suggest you alter your travel itenary.

Now now Stephanie... don't get all defensive on us...Bellringer hasn't transitioned so he cannot know personally...and as the prostate is right next to the bladder it seems perfectly reasonable that the bladder could shrink too...but who has ever done pre and post-hormones checks on bladder size/volume/holding ability? No-one - but no doubt there are millions of examination of dead bladders and millions of operations/ultrasounds on living bladders at some point but that doesn't provide conclusive proof of Natalie being wrong and Bellringer being right...not that it really matters who is right and who is wrong cos the fact is that when we gotta pee we gotta pee...

Nope Lucy, just been studying that and the scientific results are that molecular composition of the various estrogens are not identical to natural female estrogen...hence they may have different effects.
Only way to get bio-identical estrogen would be to tap into the various glands on GGs that produce the natural stuff...
testosterone was first isolated by processing a mountain of bull testicles...presumably someone has processed a mountain of cow ovaries to isolate estrogen?
nothing that comes out of a factory can be totally natural...not that it matters cos the only people who get natural estrogen are lesbians or men into oral sex with women. But lets not go there or we get into the realms of B-R-S-Syndrome.

actually of course, when I switch my brain on I realise the prostate is under the bladder so if it shrinks: now does it shrink in height or width or all ways?
Shrinking prostate would allow the bladders to fall or rest lower into the abdomen and the other stuff to squash it into a smaller space and along with the changes the total space available for expansion might be so reduced as to give the smaller volume that Natalie says...again there is no real way of checking except perhaps by super accurate ultrasound/MRS/CT scans etc.

When I had my bladder scan the image was so blurred I couldn't see how they could accurately measure it...but never mind..we are stuck with the bladders we have at this moment in time...

and as for the accuracies of scans and ultrasound they told me I had a fast devoloping large cyst on my left undecided but when they cut me open they found you a tiny one in healthy tissue...

LOL NO, Marsha...spot on..
I'll try to find the link but the scientist was adamant that the manufactured ones weren't the same as natural... I'll try to find the link.

Just wanted to stop by and say 'thanks' to all who contributed to this thread. I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it so hard to assimilate medical info. So when, for example, Marsha and Lucy debate a point they'd be surprised at how much they help with my education!

It's fair to say that, whilst meandering through the back alleys and shadowed walkways of Hormone City, I'm slowly learning...

Many many thanks.

Much love

Rae xx

this may be what happened a couple of years ago when I tried upping my dose of estrogen but suddenly flushed out with a thick coat of black hair. It took me about another month to get back to the original dosage and within a couple of weeks all the dark hair went...it was an awful 8-10 weeks.

Re the possible bladder shrinkage or increased sensitivity have a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulbourethral_gland and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seminal_vesicle

and both show the male anatomy of the bladder and related bits and pieces.
If the pix are correct and to scale then it seems that the bladder is wedged into a tapering cavity and held up on the prostate and seminal vesicles and also resting on the internal portion of the penis? And for that matter is the internal part of the penis held in place with muscles or structures that shrink with estrogen? What holds a penis in place when it is being thrust into a tight hole?

Estrogen makes the penis and prostate shrink and the seminal vesicles stop producing and shrink and perhaps the tiny Cowper's shrinks too or at least stops working so if all this shrinkage occurs then it seems logical that the bladder will settle deeper into the wedge and is constricted giving the impression of shrinkage.

Have we had that feedback from Mr Bellringer yet?

In the absence of any other input and seeing as only Natalie and I believe that hormones cause bladder and related other organ shrinkage I am going to officially label the condition NATALIE-ROSE SYNDROME.
LOL

Hi Natalie..
LOL Glad you like a syndrome named after you...but if there is only me and you prepared to think it through and detail it then we have the right to name it...so NRS it is. I'll think about starting a website to publicise it.

Too many non-TS have no idea of the changes the hormones make...its more than just boobs and fat deposits... LOL