lol Rose. You're funny but have you ever thought about the fact that there is no shame of being thrown off forums? Why? Because the way I see it we are the entire forum "customers" which mean we are the one that makes a forum working and without us there would be nothing to read and without nothing to read why having members? Got the point? Throwing out its "customers" is like taking out the engine from a car, it will not go anywhere.

But with regards to be kicked off forums I seen this so often on Angels Forum where the mods kick of members for a day, week or even months (often when they post something while they’re drunk) but allowing them back after that. I think the fastest I've seen anyone being kicked out from there was even before she had the chance to post as her double account based on IP address was spotted by the owner or a mod.

So for me I don't care if people are kicked off forums because they always pop up somewhere else and if you're transsexual you will always be somewhere out there.

If we look at some logic, there is a saying that says "one man's dead is other people bread" or "one person's loss is another person's gain" which in other words means being kicked out of a forum does not stop people from supporting other sites with their thoughts, advice and time. Afterall we spend a lot of time posting and replying on forums don’t we? I'll even heard of a girl that left the site(s) to get her life back as she spent so much time in forums that she basically lost her real life. She more or less got addicted.

And as more I think about it as more I just realise that the computer does not kick out people but people behind computers does. The wondering goes on with the fact that also people here at TW says that people must be allowed to have their own opinion but who’s opinions does then count? In a paid member site I would say those that pays wins as that's how it works in real life or not? Those that can't or will not pay they will also always loose.

xxx Natalie

Why is it so that some people so openly hate or maybe dislike others in such a special forum as this site when it should support people no matter what, whom or where they are?

On one side we talk about preventing suicide and care about eachother, but on the other hand it seams that the very same person(s) hate another so openly. What is the moral in this? I can't really figure out the answer on this so I need your help because I think it’s so strange.

We live in a strange world…

xxx Natalie

Natalie, hon--

Never mind the strange world. I live in a strange galaxy!

Sugah, there's nothing strange at all about this. We are like a family...a big, extended family that lives all over the world. We don't always get along with Aunt Sue, Uncle Bob, or those bratty cousins on Dad's side but they're family none the less. They're OUR family, and only we can bicker amongst ourselves. If someone barges in, they get it with both barrels, from both sides. And because words on a page have no body language, no inflection...they're open for misunderstanding. I would be far more suspicious of us as a group if we all got along perfectly, like the Stepford Wives or something.

Hate to say this, dear...but we're human. We will have our quarrels and disagreements; that's normal for human beings. But when the chips are down, I suspect that many of us would give you the blouse off her back. (The matching shoes and purse, however, you buy on your own. There are limits, after all.)

I have said before that one needs to use the grey matter between the frontal lobes when posting here, or anywhere else. Don't say things online or in chat you would never dream of saying in person. To me, that alleviates a lot of issues right there.

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

これだけ素敵ないただきありがとうございます、あなたは

Thank you for this Minako because you are SO RIGHT!!! I did not see it that way but for sure, if we see TW as an extended family it will always be love and hate in here like in any ordinary family. The reason for my posting was just the fact that I know a person that some here "hate" but in fact she's a lovely person that I happen to know from other forums. When we did chat about her in the chat room one person pulled out such a negative picture of her so even other members of the chat got negative thoughts about her when they don't know this person at all. So the way I see it is that the negativity about a person is like a bad decease that goes from one person to another without really knowing if it's true or not or they might not even know this person is real or not?

I'm a person that tries to stay away from trouble but not easy when you meet people that seams to be just after trouble which is somewhat sad because as you say "because words on a page have no body language, no inflection...they're open for misunderstanding" so what I did about one person in the chat, I just asked others what they think about her and the feedback was really interesting because she was far less "popular" then she might have though about herself, but I did not use it against her because that would not been fair for any of us. So in my opinion; “don’t believe everything you hear and don’t tell everything you know” should be valid in all forums.

xxx Natalie

You should see the 'edition wars' hate on dungeons & dragons sites! Players of the 1978 edition hate players of the 1989 edition, and the only thing they will agree upon is hate for the 2000 edition - which results in players of the 2000 edition who are interested in playing the earlier editions getting a very poor welcome indeed... and the whole industry going down the drain.

Humans! Sometimes you have to wonder how we ever got past tribal hunts - "our tribe hunts the big herd animals with sharp sticks", "well our tribe hunts the big herd animals with sharp stones!" "sticks are better than stones!" "Are not!", etc...

Kisses,
Melissa

Hi Natalie
I think that differences of opinion are essential if any forum or discussion is to be valid.
Conversations on the web often appear to be more heated because when you read something on a monitor, it is a very immediate form of communication.
If you get a response - positive or negative, to a forum thread, then I think you have to respect that person.
I think these exchanges have been very good recently.
Rachel

Natalie I think that would be a sci-fi utopia with everyone wandering around looking like zombies. There would be nothing to say to anyone because why bother if they have the same opinion. I often come across as blunt and very opinionated which has led me to many disagreements over the years I have been here. You have seen me argue with Lucy several times but you know what? I love and respect Lucy no matter what. The same really goes for everyone here, I don't feel I need to agree with everyone in order to wish each the very best in their lives. I may be stubborn but I am not closed minded so please don't write me off too fast if you feel I'm off track. One more example of differences would be that I am very conservative in my politics which surprises a lot of people. Many believe that just because I'm TS I am obligated to be liberal, sorry that isn't going to happen, lol. I just hope that at the end of the day if we disagree, we can agree to disagree, move on and remain friends.
Hugs,
Marsha

Rachel it's not really about having different opinions because that is just normal. What I'm pointing at are just that some talk bad about people that in fact are not bad at all. It's like someone start to say in the chat that you're a bad person and then people that don't even know you think you’re bad even before they got the chance to know you in real life.

Only because someone got the stamp on them as being "bad" does not mean that persons is in fact bad at all, especially not when the persons that says that the another is bad does not even know the person in real life as they just met online... That's what I mean and that’s why I like if people just could adjust themselves to their own thoughts.

It’s not only about her Cristine (your quote here was wrong as I did not tell you whom it was but gave you a link to her Tagged website on Private chat) as Conrad Murray is one fresh example on how bad publicity really destroyed his life and he's not even able to do his work anymore which is catastrophic for him and his family and I think it's sad that people are judging others without knowing the facts about that person but are still blubbering with the lips. I bet there is millions of examples on this.

But with regards to the person, she’s not really my friend as I also only met her online sometimes last year and she was only an example but you can’t avoid people unless you not use other TS forums, Facebook, Skype, Tagged, YouTube, Twitter, Flickr or MySpace. I bet if you use these sites, you will meet people you like and dislike no matter what and I can see in the case of her she has also TW members on Tagged so she can’t be THAT bad can she? If I was you Cristine I would try to find out more about her then start this negativity about her and I can give you her Skype name to start with?

My point is just that there is no point in trying to make me nor others not like her by telling others in the chat how bad she is for then to have them to say “yes Cristine you’re so right” but you see you got no negative feedback from anyone even when some knew or know her beside some said “she sounds really bad” so it died out…

I’m a strong believer in fairness and you gave a list of people that don’t like her including Marsha and Nikki and even if it was like that then so what? I think other posts in this thread did give answers on this as I bet there is also many here that don’t like you or me for that sake.

I hope I did not come out to be to bitter here, so let’s play fair as there is only one Angel here haha

xxx Natalie

Natalie, you have such a nice perspective on what life should be like and I commend you for that. Unfortunately in this day and age along with an anonymous community such as TW, people come and go for various reasons. Many create online persona's and others come here to hawk their wares. We have had some pass through here for no other reason than to insight controversy for whatever their personal gains were. TW is a community and when someone comes along and disrupts the normal goings on around here, people notice. Anne Selene was one of those controversial gals and she was given ample opportunity to change. I am not saying she did not have positive things to contribute, but rather she was at the heart of a great deal of conflict. I will not and I don't think anyone else will go into detail on the problems associated with Anne. Suffice it to say there was a lot of conflict surrounding her that leaves a distasteful image in many peoples eyes. Even in my business there are times I have to say "My service is not right for everyone." TW tries to accommodate a wide variety of people in the TG community and like my business, TW probably is not right for everyone. My personal opinion of course.

Hugs,
Marsha

Rae this was interesting... www.twvillage.com as Katie was after a new name was she? Yes it feels like a village and each website is like one village and I know people from one village do not necessarily know people in another village so there is still a lot to be discovered.

I'm sure that if we just make some thinking we all know what this thread is about and the question is just what did we do to make this village a good or bad place to be? I use several websites and I think TW is a fun and good place to be and Katie could maybe issue citizenship to good citizens?

Time to go to bed so good night…

xxx Natalie

Marsha I think I know you a bit now and I must say I always enjoy reading what you are posting but why should people change? Can they not just be who they are? Or is it a set of rules that makes people to become “accepted” in a community?

I’m just a person that feel sorry for those that don’t get a fair treatment and I have countless times cried over stories that I read online and reading newspaper can sometimes make me feel really sorry for people especially if there is children involved. One such story was about Marvallous Keene that killed 3 people during a robbery where he got away with 30 dollars. He did shoot two teenagers that happen to see the robbery and he later on said he killed them so they could not tell what they had seen – lives lost for lousy 30 dollars - that is sad… but then again he got his lethal injection some days ago and died at the age of 36 which is for sure a tragedy on both sides.

Anyhow, I will not say anything to or from about Anne but it was not only about her this thread was and she was only made as an example that came up. I see no point in discussing her as I never seen her here at TW and don't know what she did or said but I still guess she's just like any other TS girl here and not much different then all of us?

We must remember that people that are fully transitioning might also be frustrated from time to time and as nobody are perfect, everybody should be allowed to express their feelings no matter if it’s bad or good without getting a bunch of “enemies”?

xxx Natalie

I realize this thread was not just about Anne, but because her name came up it made a good example. The choice was for her to continue causing disruptions here and be asked to leave, or stop the disruptive behavior and stay. She chose not to change her behavior, enough said.

I think in reality we have very little conflict here beyond differences of opinion. Sometimes it is spirited debate and you have to wait for the dust to settle. We can all play pretty like a couple of children, but reality dictates each of us is different and each of us expresses ourselves in our own unique way. And the bottom line is we don't always like what comes our way.

Hugs,
Marsha

Haha Marsha... why should it be any better here at TW when even in parlaments we can from time to time see fights (latest I remember was in Taiwan) not talking about shoes thrown at G. Bush. Yes you're right TW is a friendly place and I haven't had any negativity thrown on me so maybe I'm just a "spoild child"?

"Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." (NIV, John 13:34-35) but I guess it's not always this way and why just "men"?


xxx Natalie

In summary, then, humans form into groups that can usually get along, but sometimes things get nasty... and then we get over it, and move on? Go hunting with both sticks and stones

Exactly! Thank you Melissa for putting all this into simple terms.
Hugs,
Marsha

Of course, there are usually a few rotten apples in every barrel... I frequent a variety of different forums, all different interests, and once you strip the surface away you see the same basic mechanisms of human behaviour over and over again. At least around here there don't seem to be any trolls tolerated for amusement purposes (unlike some places I could name... where did I put my flaming sword of troll-slaying? )

Well now..........there is one person on TW who has,with some of her postings,started my hand reaching for the vat of boiling oil or concentrated acid.............but then I thought,"Well,some of my postings on various threads have probably had a similar reception...........

Lynn

In fact I say "lovely Cristine" and not ''Beautiful Cristine'' because for me lovely also means lovely personality and I just think you’re a friendly girl to chat with and you've got good humour. But I got your point so I will just call you "Cristine" from here on and I will think the word "lovely" before I type Cristine

I'm not sure but I think if someone is told to leave from a forum it could also be simply because "we hate that girl?" without any true bad feelings besides from some few people? I would just compare it with a classroom. If there is a person that gets the stamp on her or him as being "bad" we all know what's gonna happen? All the rest of the students will follow and when it gets more bad is went the whole school are following.

I know a girl, which I did grow up with. She turned out to be lesbian and lived with another woman that had two children from a marriage with a male, one boy and one girl. The girl got really big problems at school because some started to talk bad about her because her mum was lesbian. It got so bad that she had to move and stayed with her grandmother. Even though she was not a bad girl, she lost because somebody started a bad movement against her while her brother had no problems because he could fight back. Without knowing for sure I think we can compare this with what happen here with Anne, she was just fighting back and still lost while she’s doing just fine in other forums.

xxx Natalie

I've read this thread with much amusement, Natalie's vain attempts to build Anne up as some sort of victim is laughable, Ann herself had several accounts open on here in different names so she could support herself! No one was fooled,
Anne was quiet rightly asked to leave this site as her posts were too often offensive to others, she demonstrated a complete lack of tolerance and understanding of other peoples needs and feelings.
I for one hope she seeks the psychiatric help she so obviously needs before returning here.

Huggles

Becca

Cristine, I just finished my food shopping and came back to read what you said and did I smell a change in tone here?

I'm sure most transsexuals have problems in life, but I just avoid them or try to turn negativity into positively. Let me give you and example;

My mum is OK with me and I love her for that. She have even stopped calling me "son" and only says daughter now. My dad is a different story as he never really wants to admit that he likes me as I am but I'm clever enough to see it in his eyes that he do sometimes like me. Some days ago I was visiting my parents and as I knew my dad loves cognac I bought two bottles plus a small one for his pocket haha.

Now I showed the bottle to him and said “I give you this bottle if you can just say I look nice and that you likes me” whereas he answered “you can’t buy me” and I kept on repeating myself until he said that he likes me but said something more that nobody could hear. Deal was a deal and he got the bottle. That evening my older brother and his friend came as well and a bit more then half of the bottle went down. Next day I did the same thing. I told him I’ve got something he could save for Christmas and that was the other bottle and I repeated the same thing that he must say that he think I’m nice and that he likes me. He then asked my mum if Natalie looks nice and if she likes her and my mum answered that “off cause she is nice and I likes her very much” whereas my dad now you can give the bottle to your mum but I knew she does not drink so he had to say it which he did. For the 3rd bottle I asked and he said “sure I likes you but you still can’t buy me” haha . So by being a bit funny he finally admitted it and it does not matter if he meant it or not.

The fact is that my life is "dance on roses" and it's maybe because so many people likes Natalie. I don't talk bad about others and I'm friendly by nature so maybe that's why I have a fairly good life as Natalie. Beside that everybody says Madame so I know they all see me as woman.

xxx Natalie

I'm not defending anybody Rebecca because I only know her from other forums, Facebook and Tagged and she's not different from the way I know Cristine, Marsha and 100's of others. If she got other accounts here then she's OK then? Maybe you know which one? But as you might have notices it’s not so much about her but about the way we view people and I don't want to be the one where people think I'm defending her because I'm not so just forget about that one as that's only your own ideas. I just pointed out that we must be fair as everybody need fairness and you might also meet yourself in the door one day unless you left TW before but came back?

xxx Natalie

Meet myself at the door????? Do you have a split personality??? Have we got time travel now??? or just a big mirror by the door???? I have no idea what you are talking about, do you???
I also know Anne S from another Forum, she only visited for 5 weeks before leaving,(thrown out??) is that a record?
I think TW is a much more tolerant site than many others, I like many others view people by what they say, It's essentially all you get in a forum, I've had and seen many heated arguments on here with people of differing views but none were ever as rude and offensive as her posts, she alienated every one very quickly, It was her that was being unfair, so instead of moaning about how she and indeed yourself are treated on here I suggest you take a long hard look at the things you've said, and try to imagine yourself in the real world and how your comments could upset people.

huggles

Becca

I just know you left TW for other reason then Anne which I can see in your blog so I don’t understand why you are the one that are screaming loudest about her? Your voice is like an old stream engine, it’s loud and makes a lot of black smoke. (Now THAT was a good expression, as you did not understand the one about the door? lol) Beside this I think it’s comments like yours that makes the fire burn so what about take it easier, life is just too short to waste it on useless argument.

Beside this Rebecca, NOBODY have hart made out of stone unless you're a stone statue so maybe you should give this thread some better/nicer feedback as it’s NOT about Anne Selene at all and just forget about her as I can’t even tell much about her because as said I was not member of TW when she was in here so you’re trying to make a point with the wrong person.

But for me YOU could even be Anne Selene for that sake, as you don't even use your real picture? and seams to know so much about her? So you leave more questions than answers behind you as it was only you that said she's hiding behind other identity here in TW and that maybe a game play from your side?

So I will not make an argument out of it but you can continue on your own because arguing is not my way of life as I always stay out of trouble and for me past does not even count as it’s tomorrow which is the future. What’s past is past and you can’t do a bit about it unless you lie about your past, right girls?

xxx Natalie

Thank you Anne that was possibly the funniest post I've ever read on TW!!

Becca

A car only has one engine, a forum has many posters, perhaps a better analogy would be emptying the ashtray?

Becca

Fair enough Rebecca but who said a forum has only one car? And Katie made TW as a smoke-free zone so there is no ashtray to be emptied. Since you’re never in the chat room, there it says you need to go to the garden to have a smoke (or something like that) haha

xxx Natalie

What has the chat room got to do with the Forums? I don't have time to waste talking drivel to people like you, so I don't go in.
I'm also very bored with this thread, Your posts are mostly unitelligible rubbish any way.

So have fun Ugly Anne, trying to pretend your not!! I'll not waste my time responding to you further.

Becca

Interesting Anne Selene... This must be the desert for my lunch and it taste like a vanilla pie with strawberries and cream on the top!!! But in fact the tone and message in it is clear as it's about us humans and how we see things. Forgiveness is a gift in the same way as being forgiven or for that sake being transgender. The same is to say sorry and really mean it. I think as woman to say "sorry" like you hit the needle with a hammer is not sorry but "sorry" said as a melody is a true female sorry and comes from your heart.

BTW Bangkok is with an "g" lol

xxx Natalie

Occasionally I decide to read a thread in reverse chronological order. (Let's not investigate why I do this, perhaps I'm just slightly mad..?)

If you do the same, you might firstly attempt to untangle a knotted clump of wool, then trace it back until it becomes a vague hemline. You might watch this hemline ascend into a useful and beautiful garment - a thing of purpose. This garment can be shared and enjoyed by many, but keep watching and it starts to un-knit itself, the strands recoiling, slinking back across busy hands to a tightly wound ball, full of promise.

This thread lies knotted, the life stretched from the fibres, the colour faded. Probably best not to weave anything else from it, I fear the resulting costume isn't going to hang straight on any body.

Rachel

Karen I just thinks you're so childish. How can you say this? Do you think because you come from USA you're some sort of "king of pop" and everybody in the world should be perfect in English? Did read however that US children scores very low in their own language, so how do you defend that? Grow up I would say and become more international because you only make yourself sound so … (you know)

OK I tell you what. I think this whole thing starts to be like a soap opera. I asked Anne Selene on Tagged @ http://www.tagged.com/anneselene why she came back to TW and she later on replied me back that she never did. She said it’s again just somebody that uses her name and she also said that she looked and the picture (I've made a screen capture for her) is stolen from Roses so it’s pure identity theft, which has, happen before where somebody are just trying to make her sound bad. I think there is a lesson learns her?

I bet it’s the same IP address as for Rebecca that registered Anne Selene as for sure it’s done before and if not then I’m sorry I said so but can Katie or the Mods make a stop on this once for all because it’s not fair for Anne Selene. Beside this, is this not a crime as Anne Selene is a real and innocent person? At least I feel sorry for her if what she says is true. Nothing amazes me anymore.

PS while we here… Katie or the mods can also trace my IP to see that I’m for real are in France.

========================================
OK now I see that the fraud version of Anne Selene has scrambled what she said before!!! What a fool. The apple does not fall far from the tree and I think I will stop using TW as I left kindergarten many years ago and thought TW was for grownups that knows how to behave towards other people no matter if they are blue or yellow. Karen I also think you is just a shame for the mankind. (I’m so happy I could say that because I never speak badly about others. Yes, yes, yes!!!)
========================================

xxx Natalie

By using the back key on my browser I could come back to what the fake version of Anne Selene said and here it is;

This thread was not about me, but now is, I heard about it through the grapevine and thought it my olive branch as to pacify the bad feelings on here. Thank you Natalie for your defence of my name. I am a good person though maybe sometimes misunderstood by those that not know the truth of my meaning. It reminds me of a girl I use to know in Bankok when I was student she was very pretty and intelligent knowing the secrets of nature and life but because those around her were jealous they pretended not to understand all her good intent she was shunned and asked to leave the happy groups. Many years later when she was successful they came to her for help, those that were mean to her, did she refuse help? No, because she was still a beautiful and intelligent girl who can forgive, but can others? The meaning is clear. I must go now, have important meeting to help my best good friend Mandy sort out her finances

xxx Princess Anne

Nice words but sadly it was not Anne Selene that said this...

That explains it all Rebecca. So it was always you that plaid the Anne Selene ghost here at TW and even used her IP address? I think you're so silly and I can't really understand what you wanted to get out of this? No wonder I feel so sorry for Anne as I think you’re a criminal that destroyed her reputation in here if it counts at all? People like you should be blocked on evey forum.

But Rose if you want to call me in France you can PM me and I give her my phone number so you can confirm that I'm not a fake person as I’m not using fake IP as I don't even know how to do this.

Anyhow Rebecca you just fooling me and everybody else at TW into this stupid game of yours so I stop posting on this thread.

xxx Natalie

But if we don't post things that may be upopular with certain sections of the whole trannyweb membership then the issues remain undiscussed...and there is nothing that any of us are that isn't just human...

I can only reiterate what has already been said.

The internet has made the world a village.

And, like any village, there will be those we like, those we don't, there will be a lot of gossip and speculation. There will be truth and lies. Falsehoods and platitudes. As there will be misunderstandings that are never quite cleared up.

Here, all humanity is displayed under the common ethos of TG. It is no different to anywhere else.

Yes, I would like us all to get on admirably. But we have differences and this is as good a place as any to discuss, debate and learn. Not to mention forge friendships, relationships and, yes, enmity to a minor degree.

I have no doubt that there are those out there, in the great blue nowhere, who dislike me. [And, please, no need to make yourselves known at once]. But thats life. There are people on here - and moved on from here - that I have the deepest respect and love for.

That is the nature of the internet. We have to adapt, embrace and learn how to read its nuances and dialects.

Think thats about as clear as mud!

Much love

Rae x

How awful to be in a place where we all agree all the time, no thankyou! Everyone has different opinions, sometimes they agree, other times they clash, so what?? That's the real world for you. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you don't like them, it just means you don't share their point of view. It's a healthy situation to be in.

Nikki

Being thrown out of another forum after only 5 weeks is no record at all...I've been thrown off forums after just one posting...

Natalie/Anne whatever name you want to use. Like before I can't make sence of the things you post. Your use of english is awfull.
I have been shaking my head at the stupidity of this thread from the start. Anne you allways try to defend yourself by predending to be someone else & having them praise you. From the time you first came here the only person to ever praise you is you, and you do it a lot.
Why don't you just go away & stay gone.

I've just spent an interesting few minutes re-reading this thread from first to last and referring to the profiles of each poster/postee?
And what comes across strongly is the 'division' or perhaps a better term is 'different point of view' between those who identify strongly as transssexual either pro-op or post -op and those who are elsewhere on the gender spectrum.
And the Anne Selene business makes sense now.
I'll take Karen Brad to task and say Natalie's English is a bit awkward/incorrect at times as it is not her first language so she does make small errors of grammar and syntax...but balancing that is she does make lots of posts which is what a forum is all about.
I was down in Tunisia last year for a boob job and there they all spoke Arabic as their first language and French for business so when they translated into English it was quite 'interesting' as two languages do not translate directly due to the actual meanings we put on words and phrases. In particular some of their translated sentences ran on and on because they have no direct translation for our 'apostrophe and re/s/t' word endings which we native English speakers use to completely alter the meaning of so many words and sentences.

Rose I don't know if you were here when Anne was.
She caused a lot of discord among members. If you didn't agree with her you were insulted. A lot of her post were deleted for being rude. A good number of members left the site rather that put up with all the crap that was going on. So if you want to take me to task than do it but know why we are saying the things we are saying first.

LOL this thread gets dafter!
Hated? Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pot, Hussein, Castro, Khomeinie etc etc all had people shot who voiced unpopular opinions but we've moved on from them a bit haven't we?