Hi All,
I will start hormones shortly. My question is in regards to herbals. I have been using AndroEase for a couple months. I can honestly say that my libido is considerably reduced, more than I had expected. Anyone else ever use this? Thanks.

I should also add here that I'm aware that blood work will determine my needs. I just don't really want to take certain medications if it isn't necessary and would like to have viable options. I know an endo will assist with this info. I'm mostly just curious to know if anyone has actually used herbal T-blockers in conjunction with their meds...

Katherine, As a general rule we do not discuss herbals here because herbals usually lack documentation to support claims by their resellers. I am not saying herbals are good or bad, but with only word of mouth testimonials this is not the place for them to be recommended to others.

I found a site selling the product you mentioned. In their own forums I found this:
After 4 months on E+F+CC+AE i go to lab to test again my T and E levels , before i started my levels was
T - 466
E - 32

my currents resaults are
T - 545
E - 30,97

Those are AWFUL results. If you didn't know, T needs to be below 50 and E needs to be over 200 as a rough guideline (u.s. measurements)

And as you read through the forum the dosages are all over the board. The reseller "suggests" 2 tablets a day which comes with a reasonable price for that one item. The problem is several of the posters are taking 6 tablets a day. And that is only one of several products they are taking. The bottom line is the cost of these adds up to far more than prescription estrogens and T blockers.

Next you said that you realize blood work will determine what you eventually will need to take. Have you taken a moment to realize that what you are taking now could be screwing up the results of future blood work? And your comment that you just don't want to take certain medications if you don't have to, you are taking herbals as if they are medications!

TW is not a medical site, medical and prescription advice is available elsewhere on the internet and my advice would be for you to research this stuff until the cows come home. Unfortunately there is no one have all the answers website, just take your time and learn the what and whys of each product you use. I know you are likely eager to get moving on transition, that is fine, but it is way too easy to find what you want to see. There are lots of people who are happy to tell you what you want to hear, you need to go beyond that and learn the rest of the story.

Hugs and best wishes,
Marsha

Hello Marsha,
With the wide range of discussions on the site, I wasn't aware that herbals are not discussed. No problem with that. In all the reading I've done, I've noticed that not all who are on hormones are using T-blockers, though it seems to be rare not to. I know a qualified endo will answer my questions and make appropriate recommendations. I am aware of the E and T levels that are generally expected. I was curious as to whether or not anyone had tried herbal blockers and their effectiveness. Also, from my own research there seems to be a prescription drug of choice, I'll not mention which as I don't want to go into an area I shouldn't. That again, to be determined by a qualified medical person, since we are all different in so many ways.
I do appreciate your response and the information you provided. Hugs.

You are quite correct that not all gals on HRT use anti androgens. There are definitely different views on these just as there are on progesterone. Sufficient estradiol in most cases can suppress testosterone production and the other side is you can get away with less estrogen if you use an anti androgen. Lab tests can give you a general idea if your dosage is balanced. The idea of a herbal anti androgen is not necessarily a bad idea, just that some documentation would be helpful. Testimonials on a site that sells products should not be taken as fact or documentation in my opinion.

The problem with herbals is once some place comes up with a use for a herbal, good or bad, you end up with everybody and their brother selling the stuff. Just check out eBay. There just is no assurance what you are getting is the right dose or even what they say it is. So if you are serious about transition, then get serious and use proven products.

Hugs,
Marsha

I think using herbals with such high T level would not do much for you without using AA. I also think I did read somewhere that herbal AA such as Saw Palmetto is too weak to have any effect at all and some recommend using spearmint tea instead. Just to compare, my T level is 0.4 nmol/L which is the lowest for females as female range 0.4 to 3.6 nmol/L (maybe it's 40 to 360 at the above measurements?) Male range however is 2.4 to 8.0 nmol/L (240-800) which I'm not even close to so I don't need much oestrogen to make my machine goingI think these sites is good information for hormone levels
I think for herbs how much you need depends also on bodyweight. Also I know from the above PDF document that if you’re on herbals you can’t measure your E level so just forget about that one as herbal hormones and “real” hormones are not the same at all. It’s the T level that is important to drop down and keep it as Marcha said on 50 which is maybe 5 nmol/L but low as mine is hard to get without SRS unless there is some AA that can bring it that low? What’s yours Marsha? I also agree with Marsha that people must do their own research to find out what’s best but as people gets older there less effect hormones will have and I think maybe herbal hormones and AA is a good choice to avoid problems with “real” or chemical versions of hormones. Not so long time ago I did read a test about menopausal woman where one group used herbals and the other used hormone tablets. Those that used herbs had the best results against menopause symptoms. xxx Natalie
This post was edited by Lucy Diamond at November 26, 2012 12:07 PM GMT

Lucy, because Katherine is a U.S. resident and the AndroEase page I found was from the U.S I assumed the test results are the U.S. standard of PG/ML. Those test results are truly awful. For someone trying to feminize, they were obviously going the wrong direction and that was after several months of paying several hundred dollars for herbal products.

I would like to make you aware though that there are products that don't actually suppress testosterone production but rather block the receptors. One such medication is Casodex or bicalutamide and that is the medication I use. It is extremely pricey and is marketed as a prostate cancer drug.
"Bicalutamide acts as a pure anti-androgen by binding to the androgen receptor (AR) and preventing the activation of the AR and subsequent upregulation of androgen responsive genes by androgenic hormones.[7][8] In addition, bicalutamide accelerates the degradation of the androgen receptor.[9]" ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/w[...]utamide
The thing about Casodex is testosterone lab tests are inaccurate because T is still produced but has no where to go, so some T is converted into estrone (E1) by the body and the remainder is flushed out in your waste.

Another note on those posted test results, the second series showed two estrogen readings. I can only assume one was estradiol (E2) and the other was Total estrogen. Total estrogen is an irrelevant number because it is made up of 3 different estrogens including E1 and E3 along with estradiol.

Hugs,
Marsha

I've researched numerous sites over the years regarding herbs and hormones. I understand herbs are much weaker and whether or not they perform depends on so many factors. I will say that they can affect small changes in some of us, while doing nothing in others. These had been an alternative due to not having the ability to acquire hormone treatment where I am now. While I live in the US, I've spent very little time there during the past six years. Without going into details, I've not had access to therapists etc., since I left. My last one is now retired and I'll see my new therapist when I return home in just a few months. I was approved for hormones in '95, but didn't proceed. Perhaps some day I'll tell my story here.
I've done considerable research regarding hormones, etc. I'm familiar with Spiro which seems to still be one of the more popular anti-androgens. I'll let an endo determine if I need a blocker or suppressor. I've already decided that my preference will be using transdermal estradiol because it's easier on the liver and I really hate needles, this assumes that I won't have an allergic reaction to the adhesive, otherwise I'll go sublingual.
I want to thank all of you for your generous input. One can never get too much information or insight, especially where it concerns one's well-being.

Hi ladies

Ihave not been on this forum for some time due to personal reasons but i am also in a posistion where i cannot take hormones due to various reasons. I have been looking at herbals and i am very interested in trying some. I have found a couple of sites that seem to be dedicated to herbals and i am interested to know what you all think. I know there not going to have the results that HRT have but could they atleast have some effect. Here is the link to the site i found http://cherylsbreasttalk.myfastforum.org/index.php
Id be really interested in your opinions on this.

Thanks Dannie x

I'm curious, if you cannot take hormones for various reasons, what makes you think you can take herbals? Or is it the doctors involved, because it can't be cost, the cost of herbals is upwards of 4 times as much.
Hugs,
Marsha

Trine, first off, welcome to Gender Society. I'm not sure where to start on your comments but one I don't like was you said "I don't think taking synthetic hormones for a year or two cause any danger." Maybe it would not be dangerous for most, but it could be deadly for some. Most of your comments are reasonably accurate in that they state there is still a lot of controversy on what does what. You made the assumption that hormones have nothing to offer after a few years, but herbals continue to offer health benefits. Being that herbals don't document side effects, standardized dosing, or reporting of adverse effects, all I can do is ask, "How do you know?" Just like the vitamin E controversy, some is probably good, but too much could be deadly. You also stated hormones might only have an effect on the breast for one year, my biggest growth spurt came in my third and fourth years, how did that happen? You are quite right there are good and bad estrogens but nowadays most doctors don't prescribe the birth control pills or the Premarin that many self medicators erroneously take, so there is far less risk of the DVT and other issues you brought up. Lab tests including liver function tests and complete blood counts, prostate tests and heart tests help a doctor establish a safe hormone regimen. We are all different and that is the biggest reason there is not a one size fits all hormone replacement therapy regimen.
Hugs,
Marsha

Hi Trine, there is a large population of "older" TSs and until acceptance is more universal it is my belief you will continue to see larger numbers begin their transition in later years. But that is a good point and adds a new dimension to the topic. Age is a major factor in which type of HRT is more appropriate. We need to be careful not to confuse words like "safer" with the word safe. Yes I know herbals are classified as food, but I think we all know not all food is good for you and that too much or too little can provide negative results. That is why I am a big proponent of medical supervision while on HRT, and I would have to say that includes even if you are using herbal products.

That was a very good observation that I changed hormones around the 3rd year and it was to Estradiol Cypionate. I also use Casodex which prevents the body's absorption of testosterone and allows some of the testosterone to be converted to estrogen. That brings up another point, from my experience most gals at some point do change their HRT regimen. So to say you are going to only get development for a certain length of time is inaccurate. That can also cause problems for gals who race out and get a boob job too early in transition, only to have breast growth in future years, causing the breasts to look unnatural.

The problem with online forums, including this one, is that you get readers looking for the magic HRT regimen. They believe there is a one size fits all and they will bypass most of this safety discussion looking for numbers. They want to know which med and how much. That is why you still read about gals taking birth control pills, Premarin, and fist fulls of herbals. They will then often say they can't afford to see a doctor. Will duh, maybe if they stopped throwing their money away on products that are not best suited for them, then they could afford to see a doctor.

Hugs,
Marsha

LOL, the Real reason was because I was using a gel daily prior to switching to Estradiol Cypionate injections and I was getting tired of the daily routine of applying the gel. So prior to asking my doctor if I could change, I researched Estradiol Valerate and Cypionate and found that Cypionate is 8-10 times stronger than Valerate and had a longer half life which reduced the likelihood of the roller coaster effect that many on injections experience. Depo Estradiol (cypionate) is also my doctors choice for injections. I think it was around a year after that my doctor added a low dose oral estradiol to my regimen to help prevent mood swings around injection time. Spironolactone does not agree with me so I use Casodex (bicalutamide) instead as my anti-androgen.

You are quite right about breast implants having expiration dates, but you never hear gals talking about having them removed or redone. I don't know if there are statistics anywhere that correctly reflect TGs use of hormones or breast implants. It is quite obvious that many people go it alone without medical supervision. I can easily understand some of the reasoning where it is something we feel we must do, but there are also the weekend crossdressers who think growing boobs will help them look better, yet don't give any thought to the possible long term health risks they are taking.

Hugs,
Marsha

Just my two ccents with my own very limited experience, so I will keep this very brief. When I first started, I knew quite a few girls who tried herbals. The best result I saw was basically no change. The worst reaction I heard about was was when my friend Rosa was taken to a hospital with heart palpatations. Hormones are extremely powerful and work wonderfully. In addition, they are far more successful than herbals and, taken under proper supervision, they are safer. Don't roll the dice with herbals. They are sooooooo not worth it.

Z

What absolute crap you talk about breast implants, the reason you "don't hear about the cost of removal" and " expiry dates" is because modern breast implants do not have expiry dates and NEVER need to be changed or removed . The only reason they would need to be replaced/removed if you either developed a severe health issue (in which case, bummer) or you had them put in by some butcher who did night-school and got his medical degree from the wall of a real surgeon (in which case, you should have seen a proper doctor)

This thread is supposed to be about herbals v hormones. If you require advice regarding herbals, hormones or breast implants, go and talk to a doctor.

Becca

In terms of a day and time there is no expiration date on breast implants, however you can easily find information suggesting that implants do not last forever such as from the renowned Mayo Clinic which states "Breast implants aren't guaranteed to last a lifetime. You'll likely need additional surgery at some point to correct leakage or cosmetic issues. If you decide to have your implants removed, you may need a breast lift or other corrective surgery to help your breasts return to their pre-implant appearance."

Call it expire, rupture, leak, change shape, or any number of terms and you will see that breast implants are not an insert and forget proposition.

Also Michael Olding, Md, FACS states that "No implant will last forever. Implants can break or rupture, causing deflation. Many ruptures result from the natural aging of the implant, excessive compression to the breast, or trauma to the breast. The most noticeable effect is that the size and shape of the breast change. Depending on the size of the rupture, changes in breast appearance can occur over a few days or over a very long period of time."

Michael Olding, MD, FACS, of Washington, D.C. is board-certified in plastic and reconstructive surgery by the American Board of Plastic Surgery and is a member of the American Society of Plastic Surgeons, the Northeastern Society of Plastic Surgery and the National Capital Society of Plastic Surgeons, where he was elected president. Dr. Olding specializes in cosmetic plastic surgery procedures and clinically related activities in cosmetic surgery, cosmetic facial surgery, breast augmentation and reduction, rhinoplasty, body contouring, liposuction and melanoma. He is also one of the area experts on soft-tissue fillers (Restylane, Sculptra and Botox). He received his doctorate in medicine from the University of Kentucky in 1980 and completed his internship at Cornell Medical Center. He completed his fellowship in plastic and reconstructive surgery at McGill University in Montreal. Dr. Olding maintains hospital staff privileges at George Washington University Medical Center, Sibley Hospital and Children's Hospital in Washington, D.C.

I can post examples like these all day long Rebecca, so your best advice about seeing a doctor is all we can agree on here. So on another note, I edited your usual foul language out of your above post.

Hugs,
Marsha

Thanks for editing my post to suit yourself, but if you noted I said MODERN implants, any moron can scan the net for outdated information then claim it as knowledge. I RECENTLY accompanied someone to visit a plastic surgeon of some repute, who said in no uncertain terms that modern breast implants are for life, not ten years, not twenty years, FOR LIFE!

When clinics claim that "Breast implants aren't guaranteed to last a lifetime" it is trying to prevent lawsuits when things accidentally go wrong, that doesn't mean they will.

I can't believe they made you a mod! You can't face being wrong for once (or loads of times) so you change other people's post to suit your own point of view. And whenever you're caught at being a hypocrite or a bigot, you claim to be misunderstood. "Oh I didn't mean it like that!!!"
I wonder how much of this post will be here in an hour, just for those readers that do see this post, I've exposed Marscha's lies and bigotry a few times in the past, and she doesn't like it.

Huggles to all except Marsha,

Becca

Eesh hot topic here I guess.....
I'm not entirely sure why I'm throwing hair band in, but maybe I can say something that someone reading will be able to use.

I tried herbals for about 2 months not too long ago. I was kinda scared away from hormones by a lot of things, I have an utmost respect for the power of hormones they really are life changing, mind altering, and I personally believe that they should really only be taken under a doctor's supervision. I know there are some girls who can and have done it on their own but I was perfectly content to wait.

However, somehow I never really equated herbals to hormones. They seemed like they weren't really hormones, they weren't going to drastically alter my mind and mood, they were just going to make my body a little more feminine which I could cleverly disguise under the baggy clothes I had always used to hide my male form. They weren't going to stop me from being able to function as a man in society, they would just be my own little project, something to help me get a headstart for when I was ready and had the money to see doctors, do electrolysis and everything else in transitioning.

But at the end of the day, herbals are hormones. Maybe they're less powerful, but they are still hormones.
I have a low testosterone count, I know I do, I know that the males on my father's side all have low testosterone dating back for years. Maybe this means that if and when I'm able to fully transition it might be easier, I don't know. But what I do know is that even the herbals sent me on a spin, more so than I had ever imagined. It was an emotional whirlwind that left me dazed and confused. And for what? 1 and a half cup sizes? It wasn't just my little project, it was affecting my job, my friends, and I had no baseline, no one to ask "Is this healthy? Will this get easier? Am I doing too much? Doing too little? What is this?" Pretty much just no answers. Which is why I stopped.

Maybe I'm just an isolated case, someone who is affected by things more than others, I don't know. I do know that hormones aren't to be taken lightly, and herbals are still hormones for better or worse.

Who knows if this'll help anyone, but that's what I have to say.

Love
-Angela

As my reply was deleted in it's entirety , I shall repeat the salient points-

I attended a well known hospital with a friend and spoke to an eminent plastic surgeon who advised my friend that MODERN breast implants are for life and hence do not ever (in normal circumstances) need to be removed or replaced.

Any moron can sit alone in their bed room quoting out of date rubbish from unsubstantiated web sites, If you wish to know the truth in this matter try asking a real Doctor, that also applies to the main theme of this thread.



Rebecca

Rebecca makes a good point.

Any moron can sit alone in their bed room quoting out of date rubbish from unsubstantiated web sites, If you wish to know the truth in this matter try asking a real Doctor, that also applies to the main theme of this thread.

Why every sad post refers to sitting in bedrooms though I can only presume some are perceived as sad lonely old deluded gits. the internet same as reference books, there are those that only absorb/assimulate what they perceive as facts because it fits in with what they want to believe. "the we won the war" seems to be a classic example.

To be quite honest, never had cause to question or doubt Marshas integrity or what she knows, and am sure all her observations are based on well researched information. As to her so called cop outs, without a face to face discussion unable to read facial expressions etc. Misunderstandings and taking stuff out of context will occasionally happen. I have read all the forums posting on Herbals and the Pheonix project. and conclude that the arguments put up by Lucy, Marsha and Crissie are based on factual and unbiased reports. researched and quoted verbatum, So far I have not seen any independant or substantiated documented evidence to support herbal transitioning.

Personal attacks and slurs are not conjusive to a healthy and honest debate, detracting from the subject in hand. its my opinion that personal attacks are the result if ones own feelings of inadequency, frustration and jealousy..

Rebecca, your final point about asking real doctors is the real point of this forum, not only this thread, but forum. We can argue all day about what is normal and what are the possible problems, but what matters most is if someone has questions or experiences a problem, they seek professional medical help. I believe we both can agree on that.

I do tend to play the devils advocate here and that is because I prefer to err on the side of safety. My statements are usually based on, personal experience, experiences of personal friends, and observation of what I have read and others have discussed. Because the internet makes it easier in this media, I site examples to support my stand. Are there examples to support other stands, of course. And discussing each in a civilized fashion is how we learn. Neither you or I have all the answers.

My views on breast augmentation are partially shaped by a TS medical doctor friend who acquired a MRSA staff infection in one of her breasts. It is easy to think she had an incompetent doctor, but that was not the case here. Her doctor happens to be Gender Society's expert doctor for the FFS forum. Is he a bad doctor to let this happen, of course not, stuff happens. And that is really the point I try and make, things can and do happen and we need to be aware of the possibilities so that if something seems not quite right, we seek help at the earliest possible time. I hope we can also agree on that.

Hugs,
Marsha

Trine, you made a comment about how at some point hormones will do no more for you and just become part of your endocrine system. I'm wondering, isn't that the point? Are we so wrapped up being focused on feminization, that we never see the end, that we must continue to seek out more hormones or herbals to continue our apparently never ending transition?

I will be open about this, I am very much against anyone taking hormones or herbals for that matter, with no intention of transitioning with or without SRS. So that brings me to the above point, is there an end? It almost sounds like for some it is an addiction. Either that or a race to find medications that will feminize someone the fastest or grow the biggest boobs.

And Trine you continue on with "taking “real” hormones or herbals does not really matter unless you had orchiectomy or SRS, then the only option is 17B oeastradiol with or without progesterone." Will yeah, again isn't that the idea in the first place? So if not transitioning, what are we trying to do here? And if our goal is to transition and have an orchi or SRS, as you say we need estradiol 17b (E2), where do herbals fit? Wouldn't a healthy lifestyle negate the need to supplement your body with herbals?

Maybe Rebecca is right about the boob jobs and we can expect little risk in having problems and needing to have them replaced. For the high cost of herbals, if the only goal is to grow bigger boobs, why not just go buy a pair?

Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha and I finally agree on something!!!!

With respect to researching a complex subject like hormones I doubt either Marsha ( self employed pest control) , Lucy (Professional musician), Myself (Engineer student) or any of the others involved on this thread (occupations unknown) are capable of "researching" this subject thoroughly. As Marsha pointed out we mainly draw upon the experiences from our own or friends lives. Much of what we read online is misleading or plain wrong, many sites are there merely to part us from our cash with little regard for the truth. For serious research you need to have access to the relevant professional journals, unfortunately very few are available to the general public (even online)

With regard to this thread try -http://www.medicines.org.uk

Again the information is limited in the public domain, so to state that anyone on here has "thoroughly researched " a subject as complex and potentially dangerous as this one is plainly wrong.

Herbals- Dangerous nonsense, sure modern pharmaceuticals originally came from them and many do work, but in the absence of full clinical trials It's a dangerous fantasy to believe these are a safe alternative. Many of the advocates for them (On this site and others) that I've seen are actively involved in selling them (Like that clown from Thailand, I've forgotten her name) and hence have every incentive to play down the risks and over state there effectiveness.

To summarise- Go and talk to a Doctor, It's free and confidential in the UK.

Becca

Hugs Rebecca, I am glad we can find some common ground. I completely agree with everything said in your last post. One thing I would also like to add is along with needing or having access to the professional journals, you need the training to correctly understand and put everything into its proper context. My personal preference is to work off of summaries rather than try to follow molecules which I have only a modest understanding. Unfortunately summaries often leave you with more questions than answers, however they do give us a good starting point for discussion.

LOL, please don't laugh at my profession of self employed pest control. I do happen to be state licensed and certified which entails a great deal of understanding of biology and chemicals. It has also afforded me the opportunity to work directly with clients of all professions, especially medical doctors in the community I do most of my work in. My daughter happens to be an engineer, so I can appreciate your level of education and career choice.

Hugs,
Marsha

Trine, you have a very strange idea about education, Hobby Doctors???????????? I'm sure Marsha learns a lot from each dead rat ( Sorry Marsha) or Lucy from her audience (other than they enjoyed her music) On the job training is important in any career and never ends but comes from your peers and your failures!

We all have a right to express our views and opinions, but on important subjects such as this we should never dress them up as being fact.

Becca

Thanks Wendy but you are a day or so behind. Rebecca has modified her post on her own and reposted it. I believe we have also reached some common ground that we can continue to discuss this topic. I'm guessing Rebecca is feeling a lot like me right now wondering when the discussion can just get back to the topic. With that being said, I would like to take a moment and thank Rebecca for her contributions.
Hugs,
Marsha

Wendy, I'm well aware that there isn't a "text book" which is why I only referred to "journals" these are weekly/monthly/quarterly publications the articles in which are written by your peers. I know of several such publications but the only medical one I know of is "The Lancet" which I'm sure many of the UK girls will have heard of but I doubt many have ever seen. It is through these publications that professionals publish their research or share experience and knowledge.

That was the point of my post, There isn't a text book, and the relevant journals are not available to us, need I say more?

Herbals and nuts? yep lol

Becca

Trine.
(edited by Marsha)

You as it seems spend alot of time reading rubbish on the internet so why not spend it taking notice of Marsha/ Rebbeca/lucy/Cristine/Cassandra .

As i do these girls live in the real world so you continue to bring up as much stuff as possable then read the replies and you may just learn something , "some real facts" .

Maybe as you seem to think you will gain a female body form from weeds and plants you should ask Alan Titchmarsh to be your endo (he's a british gardening bloke) or you could try mirical grow! (thats a british plant food) made mainly of dead plants .

Plants play a hug part in medicine but where hormones are concerned there are none that will give you anything more than the sh#ts or the opposite .

Julia .

****Warning**** Girls, I think we have all had enough of the personal attacks in this thread. I have edited out the parts I felt were personal attacks and had nothing to do with topics being discussed in this thread. There is nothing wrong saying you feel something that was said is wrong, but you do not need to attack the character of the individual saying it. The last thing I want to do is edit anyone's post because it obviously puts me on thin ice censoring others comments. I would appreciate everyone's cooperation.
Hugs,
Marsha

Hi Trine.
I owe you a BIG REALY BIG BIG MASSIVE HUGE SORRY .

I don,t know why or how i wrote your name instead the person who started this thread "Katherine Harris" my comment was aimed at her and "knowone else" . All i can say is i must have got as far as one of your comments before i stopped reading the R#$#@%H comming from her .

Once again my sincerce apoligies .

Julia xx .

Hi Marsha and Everyone,

I can't speak from any expertise, but have been doing some research, as I'm considering hormones at the present time. After reviewing the "Herbal" alternatives, I realized the following:

1. All Herbal claims come with a number of disclaimers.
2. The less honest marketers of the various products seem to stretch the truth on how effective they are (Flying under the mileage may vary flag).
3. They are somewhat truthful in stating the mileage may vary, as each person is differentand even formal hormone therapy will effect each girl differently.
4. As a unregulated industry, uncovering the honest marketers from the dishonest is very problematic.

For me, a supervised course of treatment from an experienced medical professional makes the best sense and hopefully will help me meet my goal safely.

For my sisters here - Please put on your Reasonableness and Reality filters when considering either Herbal or Hormone therapy. In our desire to become who we are inside, we can be taken in by all manner of claims (some true / some false). After all it's your one and only body you are trying to adjust. Please do it safely.


As for breast implants - Do they really have a use or freeze by date?

Hugz from a Sister on a Journey,
MichelleLynn

Thanks Trine .
I will always admit when i am wrong .

The point which i was trying to make to Katherine is "knowone" is going to grow a pair of boobs by eating bits and pieces of trees roots and bushes or there fruits so if any person who is trying to gain any female form of any kind by doing so are not only wasting there money and time but also putting there health at risk . I eat some health foods but i eat them to keep healthy as part of my normal everyday healthy diet .

I have had the builders in for the past 10 days and am suffering from sleep deprevation ,""" i can,t find my bed!""" that may explain my mistake with the names . zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz .

Julia xxx . ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ .

I am living proof that there is more than one way to achieve body feminization goals...you know my stance from prior threads...no need to elaborate...but this is sounding like the "Salem Witchcraft" saga with all the herbal bashing...
Yes, there are far too many sites out there promoting their wares that are totally bogus, but there is also one that has a 20+ year track record of success that has been designed deliver results safely and successfully...
My point is if you know nothing about it and only view it from your perspective (prescribed hormone-based) and lump them into the hundreds of other quack sites, then you are mistaken.
Since they are "like all the rest". how do you explain me going from a 40-36-36 male shape to a 38-34-38 in ten months? All male muscle gone, skin silky smooth, hair the same... Placebo effect? In my mind??? Making this up because I want to believe it's true? Male imposter posing as a girl in here? Trying to upgrade my "status" within the TG community?
Tell you what...anyone that knows Robyn Webb, drop her a note and have her give me a call...she's seen me a few times PRIOR to beginning my program. I will go and meet her and show her "me"...she won't recognize the "new me"...bank on it!

So please, enough of the pontification from one perspective...what we BOTH agree on is the importance of medical supervision and to be sure that one's intent is on full transition from m2F. not some fetish where "it would be sooo cool to have boobs" while remaining a male. It's not cool to have boobs while living as a male and it presents a lot of challenges to do so as in never going shirtless at the beach again among others...

But if people always insisted that there is only way to do things, many of the modern advances in all fields would NEVER have happened...

OK...bring it on...

Traci

Hugs Traci. First off believe it or not, I am not even going to question whether your results are accurate. I am also happy that you are satisfied with the results you feel you are achieving. I am not arguing whether someone can achieve some level of feminization from herbals, but instead the lack of independent documentation on side effects, proper dosage, and overall safety. Basically you have to take the seller at their word and for me, that is a risk I for one am not willing to take. After discussing this with you in various threads, I am pleased to hear you have medical supervision.

The other point I would like to address is cost. If you have medical supervision, then I would assume you could obtain a legal prescription for generic bio-identical estradiol which would only cost around $10 u.s. at many pharmacies. The herbal products you are taking, assuming they are the same we discussed in other threads, far exceed the cost for generic prescription medication. Obviously that is a choice you are willing to make.

HRT, whether pharmaceuticals or herbals, are something you are on the rest of your life. Neither is taken only to the point you feel you have reached full feminization then stopped, rather they are taken for life. Prescription medication for HRT has a long term proven track record with a known safety record. Once again not saying herbals will not accomplish some degree of feminization, but in essence you are a guinea pig taking a product with an unknown long term safety record.

Best wishes always,
Marsha

Not to beat a dead horse to death, but I do have a prescription for estradiol , and have weighed risks and being kinda a nature girl, decided it was less risky to go the herbal route despite the cost. Cost is not an issue for me right now...that could change, but it is not a factor in the scenario for me.

I know, there's no documentation and all in the herbal products that we've touched base on in the past...I am OK with that due to explanation from company...sometimes one must take the leap based on faith...(I know, you're fooling with life and death, etc.), but there is nothing I can find anywhere to dispel the safety or health issues that might arise from these. So it becomes a "my side is better than yours", a choice I have made and am pleased with up to this point.

Yes, one must remain on hormones the rest of their life as your body NEEDS a full bucket of them, be it T or E in order to function properly and ultimately live...so if one eliminates T, it MUST be supplanted with E or you WILL slowly crumble and possibly die from it...but for me, this is a life long commitment to move forward, not some whim of "I wonder what it would be like to have breasts"???
Shoot, my little girls are not very large, but if they didn't grow anymore, I'd be perfectly content as they are truly femme shaped and compliment my overall appearance.

I do find myself at peace at last, emotionally secure and stronger than ever. I feel terrific and look even better...I can get by with very little or no make up, but still won't be considered for Miss Universe any time soon! LOL But that is not important, what is is the congruity between my body and soul which I am finally achieving!

Sooooo....there you have it from "the other side"! (grin) Take it for what it's worth as I have nothing to gain from stating my position and feelings...I am NOT trying to direct others to a herbal source for feminization, but rather just pointing out that it too is possible...but be careful where you go with that as you can really waste a lot of time and money if you choose all the garbage that is out there.

Traci
[email protected]

Trine, you complicate the use of herbals even more, so a new concern is what if someone doesn't do all you suggest. But I need to laugh at you thinking bioidentical hormone use would make you a guinea pig. Bioidentical hormones have been around since the 1930s and there is a long documented record on what effect they have on the human body. I am not arguing herbals can't work, I am arguing the herbal concoction that some are taking has not been in use long enough to know the full impact. Each on it's own may be fine and even healthy, but combinations of herbals as well as prescription medications can alter both the safety and effectiveness of any product. Time will tell, until then there just is not enough info on herbal use for transition.
Hugs,
Marsha

Trine, Marsha and all...

What makes these herbals work is that the company has taken the time and spent the $$$ to break down the very essence of what makes each ingredient work to the molecular level. Then they have determined, copying or utilizing an old German research result, that the SUM of the components is greater than the individual herbals. In other words, the net effect, when combining certain molecules, makes each characteristic work more effectively that if you dumped a bunch of (to use another's term) "weeds" into your system. It's like if you took sodium an chloride as elements, you'd probably poison yourself. But if you combined them at the molecular level, the resultant is salt which we tolerate quite well. The same goes for the active ingredients in these herbs. It also explains why they cost so much...and yes, I am getting a lot of good, healthy nutrients into my system that do not get processed by my liver nor kidneys and am taking vitamins (not the chemical ones) and minerals to supplement my diet. Net result for me is a body weight I had in high school, virtually no excess fat except for where it has moved about to the girl positions (butt, hips, upper thighs, cheeks, and breasts), and an overall feeling of good health and peace of mind. It's amazing, really is...

Yes, I am sure prescribed hormones and T-blockers would work wonders on me as well...have ZERO doubt. But at age 60, I did not feel like it was smart for me to stress my liver and kidneys, my emotional balance, nor any other possible side effect that all you girls on prescribed went thru. I can "control" my pace of development with the dosages I take with the herbals and I have tweaked a few things over the 10 months to speed up or slow down changes. My T level has dropped dramatically, my E levels have risen accordingly, my heart rate and BP are in line and a lot better than most my age, and all systems are in proper working order...my digestion has improved, my skin has gotten "cleaner", my hair has stopped thinning and even regrown in a few places, and I sleep like a hibernating bear at bed time...

Truly there is more than one way to skin a cat...Trine has mentioned that herbals have been around for thousands of years...there is reason that the ancients utilized what they did...it is foolish of us to ignore the possibilities and potential of these...

Just my two cents worth...

Traci

Well done Trine, you perfectly demonstrate why taking Eastrodiol is safer than some Herbal concoction.

WHY? I hear you scream, well it's obvious, Eastrodiol has been tested and all the possible side effects recorded and risks evaluated,
Herbals may work but they simply haven't been tested properly in a clinical environment, I would hazard a guess and suggest Herbals probably have as many if not more possible side effects, (as they're not normally a pure active ingredient but a mix) However until they're properly tested in clinical trials it's impossible to know.

Simply saying "they worked for me/ a friend, doesn't mean they're risk free, quite the opposite.

Becca

PS. Have you ever been to Thailand or France???? LOL

Hi all (ps i am awake).

I have new evidence that some fruits can give you boobs .

(1) two apples.
(2) two oranges.
(3) bigger effect two grapefruits.
(4) Jordan effect two melons .


These fruits put down your bra will give you instant boobs and lots of wasps hanging around you all day .

I think i will stick to my hormones and regular checks at my doctors and at least i know the risks, but then crossing the road is more risky .

Julia xxx.

We can all make lists but your argument is irrelevant.

I think you missed the whole point of this thread (real hormones or herbals does not really matter......)

Yes it does, that's the whole point.

I give up,

Becca

Hi Rebecca.

If your last comment is aimed at me "i was joking" and the reason i was joking is that this whole bloody thread is becoming a joke even einstien would be scratching his head if he was reading this lot.

I give up too .

Julia .

me too...again two sides to the issue, both having their merits...neither side willing to budge...like a bunch of men! Grrrrr

Safety has nothing to do with being safe, but means the risks are known so the product can be properly used while minimizing that risk. It would not matter if Trine's list was two or three times as long as she listed. That list is a good thing just like Rebecca pointed out. Those are known risks and can therefore be monitored. You cannot monitor anything if you don't know what you are looking for.

I would love nothing more than to one day have independent documentation on the herbal products we are now discussing with a list of side effects because there inherently have to be some. Simple things like allergies can be aggravated with various herbal products. As it stands right now, who gets notified if there is a negative health issue related to a herbal product? Maybe at most, the person selling the stuff on the internet. There is no list of side effects because nobody is keeping a list. And using the line "It is to costly to get independent testing from the likes of the FDA." is a real cop out. Maybe the product does have the right stuff to cause feminization, but I just wonder if those producing these products really don't want to know if there is anything negative with their continued use. After all, the people using the stuff only care about the visible results.

Hugs,
Marsha

LOL, I can also personally vouch for prescription hormones working for me. This is as close as I'm going to get for a boob shot here, but as you can see I'm just wearing a cami with a built in shelf bra. This was taken from our third floor condo so it may be a little fuzzy.

LOL Melody, I'm down at the dock and my wife took the picture from the balcony of the condo. I shouldn't have cropped the pic so much, lol.

Hugs,
Marsha

Well honestly, as someone who came into GS long after this thread was posted and then dead, I'll say what I think that this thread should be.
This thread should be something informative, something that someone who's considering herbals or hormones or whether or not to use them at all, could look and see the pros/cons/differences. Of course with everyone arguing their points into the ground, the points themselves end up getting lost.

If there was no value to this thread besides the original poster's concerns, it could have been done in PM or would have been buried ages ago.

I'm actually kind of happy to see the arguments come up for both sides because if we all agreed on everything there wouldn't be any problems and nobody would learn anything. But since we do have problems and there are things we can learn, that's why we're here, to share a bit of our experience with the people who have none so that their decisions and choices might be just a little more informed and just a little less painful.
The thread may have diverted from that with everyone reiterating their positions and rather heavily attacking opposing positions (which, really, its pretty petty because nobody transitioned twice fully, you looked at the options, weighed the pros and cons yourself and made your decision for what you thought is what's best for you). What we're here to share is a bit of wisdom to the upcoming people, myself included because I'm only at the beginning of my journey, and support for each other. Personal attacks or not, the direct attacks everyone has been making to the other side is both painful and unhelpful to just about everyone reading, but especially to those who opened the thread looking to see what people thought about herbal transitioning.

I mean now it is almost impossible to glean much of anything from the thread as its been lost under layers and layers of fruitless arguments where no one has agreed to disagree (which is something you all kinda should do at some point because there's a lot of opinion being thrown around as fact).

And maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is better served as a series of open fora where the endless debate about two paths that can't be experienced fully by one person gets argued back and forth in the vain hope that a consensus will be reached. I'm almost certain that there won't be a consensus, and I'm also almost certain that those who have taken a route that worked for them will not back down from their reasoning and concede.

Anyways..... just kinda wanted to say something about the way I've been reading this thread............ I hope I didn't call anyone out or offend anyone.

Love,
-Angela

To reply to Trine in regards to the original poster Katherine never returning, that is fairly common especially in the hormones forum. Gals pop in and all they really want to know is what dose of hormones should they take, or they hear about some magical herbals that they won't need a doctor in order to obtain and they want to know "will this work." All they want is yes or no without the explanation why. In essence, they want approval.

This forum is more of a discussion forum and is not meant to be a source for the latest technical information on medications to accomplish feminization. It is to share views of our experiences and the reasons we chose the path we are on. We are not doctors.

Although I am not a fan of herbals, I think it is great how Traci has shared her experiences with us. Maybe someday more documentation will be available and who knows, it may be exactly as Traci has found to be effective for her. At this point documentation is not available so as someone else brought up, I agree to disagree with those using herbals.

Hugs
Marsha

Oh dear.

Crstine bites her tongue, but posts this little piece and the link.

HERBAL HORMONES

Many plants contain compounds that directly or indirectly affect hormones or hormone activity in the body. Since phytoestrogens (i.e., "Plant Estrogens") are far weaker than their animal counterparts, they can be used effectively to manage overabundant or deficient amounts of estrogen. The molecular structure of phytoestrogens is so similar to those in animals that they readily bind with estrogen receptors, in some cases even more readily than the actual animal steroids. Becase the plant steroids are so much less "reactive," though, they occupy the receptor while only performing some (or none) of the job. The animal estrogen is swept on in the bloodstream to either bind with some other receptor, a blood protein, or ultimately to be destroyed in the liver or excreted from the body altogehter. In this way, plant hormones can be used to "block" the direct activity of free, unbound estrogen in the body. If there is a deficiency the small amount of stimulation from the plant hormones can cause a mild estrogenic effect and in this way act as an estrogen supplement.

USE IN TRANSGENDER FEMINZATION

If you are a Male-to-Female transgendered person who have come to this page in search of information on over-the-counter natural/herbal hormones for the purpose of feminizing your body, you need to be aware that the effectiveness of the few herbals the DO exert estrogenic actions is extremely minimal because phytoestrogens tend to be only about 1/1000th as strong as animal estrogens. These herbal drugs may work well to help balance a biological females peri-menopausal or post-menopausal endocrine system, but they are wholly insufficient for over-riding a biological male's testosterone dominance. The amounts of herb that would have to be consumed would be dangerous if not outright toxic. While some people do report some minor effect from certain herbal formulations (such as gynecomastia or a small amount of fat redistribution) the majority of transgender people who've tried them will tell you that herbals are ineffective and a waste of money if your goal is to fully feminize your body. Only prescription-grade hormones will provide adequate feminization results (some of which are bio-identical to what your body produces - i.e., "natural") .

http://gendersociety.com/[...]101620&

Natalie said

Hormones are far too complicated and I think none at any TS forums really knows what they are talking about because even researches are contradictory.

I think, Lucy and Marsha are probably two of the most educated people from any networking site when it comes to their knowledge on mones, their advice and experience is much valued here and thats why they were put in charge of this forum. Their knowledge is obtained by research facts and substantiated data, not some whimisical pie in the sky, ideas.

This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at March 23, 2013 9:47 PM GMT