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Phoenix Project!

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  • Looking to see if anyone has had any experience with this organization regarding transitioning and and all....everything I've heard is positive, effective, but still relatively quiet in the community...

    Check out the link and please read deep into each section....awesome resource in understanding how it all works with cells, hormones, receptors, etc....

    I also urge y'all not to rush to judgement based on previous over the counter herbal experience...(check back with me in 30-45 days if you want to know how it is working)

      October 29, 2009 10:00 PM GMT
  • is the active link...
      October 29, 2009 10:22 PM GMT
  • Traci

    I have seen the ads for this before, I don't believe everything I read though. However if you are going to give it a go I would be interested to hear your results.

    Jeri Elaine “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” - Irina Dunn, 1970 Indecision is the key to flexibility. - unknown
      October 30, 2009 12:39 AM GMT
  • I won't hide the fact that I am strongly against herbals because of the lack of documentation both on evidence they do what they say and what are safe effective dosages. I also question why someone who believes strongly enough that they need to go on HRT, would choose such unproven chemicals to put in their bodies. If you can find a doctor who treats transsexuals and recommends to his/her patients that they take herbals, then I might change my opinion. Let me qualify that with a doctor that doesn't make money selling herbals.

    "The Evanesce formulation performs these two crucial tasks:
    Evanesce has the strongest, safest, testosterone blockers you can legally get without a prescription,
    Evanesce has significant estrogen resources, to enable the feminizing processes. "

    I contend if you care enough about yourself to want to feminize, then get a prescription. And what does "significant estrogen resources" mean?

    Besides the "what is this stuff?" look at the cost. The hawkers of Evanesce recommend 6 tablets daily at a cost of $33 plus shipping for 30 days worth. I contend if you feel strong enough you need to be on HRT then you should be able to find a doctor to prescribe you real hormones. Estradiol and spironolactone can be had for under $20 for a months supply at Walmart or most other pharmacies in the U.S., and that is with no insurance.

      October 30, 2009 1:01 AM GMT
  • All good points, but what is very significant here that hasn't been brought up is:

    Hormones (HRT) are derived from the same herbs as these products. Estrogen is estrogen....

    They are treated as food in your body as opposed to something that needs to be discharged/cleansed via kidney and liver eliminating the stress on those organs.

    You can control the pace of your transition unlike hormones and nothing is wasted as the body/cells use what it needs to perform their tasks.

    No, they are not FDA approved...but they have also been recommended by respected medical people in the field who have nothing to gain by their recommendation.

    I have or can obtain legal prescriptions for hormones, but after 7 months of due diligence in TW and other sources, for me, the risk at my age of stressing out kidneys and liver is not one worth taking. The cost is insignificant on a monthly basis (to me) and when weighed versus risks, just feel it's a safer alternative to hormones. My goal is NOT to grow bigger boobs but to drive out testosterone and allow genetics to take over with the physical changes whatever they may be. If my breasts grow, cool! I, like many here, have been living in the wrong body and have been stifled by the effects of male hormones...I welcome the changes....

    Any and all comments will be appreciated...



      October 30, 2009 1:21 AM GMT
  • Moderator
    2 1650 2‚ 0
    If you want to feminise your body why don’t you take human estrogen? It has worked just fine for half the population of the human race since time immemorial.
    There are some strongly misleading claims on this website about so-called “drug hormones”. They cite Premarin as an example. Don’t take Premarin.
    They don’t specifically mention readily, and in most countries legally available bio-identical hormones, which can be bought from Inhouse Pharmacy at a fraction of the cost of any other alternative “magic pill” (their words) on the market.
    Bio-identical hormones are the same as human hormones, they do not have the same risks and side-effects of other synthetic hormones, or for that matter, of “herbal hormones”. They are an extremely safe and time-tested method of feminising the body.
    It works for natal females, why take anything else? Why spend a fortune on magic pills? Why are so many people so eager to believe the marketing hype that a certain magic pill is better than the wondrous chemical made in the human body that is called…
    Forget the phyto/xeno/ethinyl/equine/herbal/syntho/quacko prefixes.
    Human bodies are feminised by estrogen. There is no better product.
      October 30, 2009 1:50 AM GMT
  • Moderator
    2 1650 2‚ 0
    "Estrogen is estrogen...”
    It is, but phyto-estrogen is not; it is a form of estrogen; something similar to estrogen.

    “They are treated as food in your body as opposed to something that needs to be discharged/cleansed via kidney and liver eliminating the stress on those organs.”
    This claim on their website is nonsense. Anything that goes into your mouth will soon become acquainted with the liver. Everything that goes into your mouth is treated as food, some of which is more toxic than other. This product will be no less toxic than bio-identical estrogen taken orally.

    “You can control the pace of your transition unlike hormones and nothing is wasted as the body/cells use what it needs to perform their tasks.”
    You can no more control the pace of your transition with this product than with any other product; pace of transition is mainly determined by your genetics. Phyto-estrogenic hormone regimes are notoriously lees effective than FDA approved ones, but not necessarily slower. And the last part of that sentence about the body/cells using what they need is more nonsense.

    “No, they are not FDA approved...but they have also been recommended by respected medical people in the field who have nothing to gain by their recommendation.”
    I suspect they have been recommended specifically for use by natal females (eg for menopausal symptons), I doubt there are many genuine medical practitioners out there who would put their head on the block and claim that these products will cause effective feminisation in TS patients, and even less likely claim that these products are actually better than human estrogen.

    I don’t doubt that this product will have some effect. I don’t believe though that it is better, safer, or in any way preferable to bio-identical estrogen.
      October 30, 2009 2:16 AM GMT
  • Look, I'm not trying to create a flaming war of words in here with this post...and I do appreciate your comments, especially as you and Marsha and others have fully transitioned and are experienced in the process ,etc...
    First, don't question my intent on going fulltime and transitioning, although I don't think that was actually stated...

    Second...that said, Lucy, I believe you said that these items will probably work to some most definitely will based on what I've learned...maybe NOT as powerful as prescribed estrogen, but I am OK with that too...

    Third...I have approached principals of company as well as Md's about validity of your counter points to my original posts to give them the opportunity to share or disclose their position. They will state it better than I possibly could....if they fail to respond, then that will be a red flag to me....

    I have not begun taking anything and will not until the dust is settled and I am satisfied with information provided, not only from the girls in here (and I truly appreciate it, even the criticisms) but from outside medical resources as well as the Phoenix Project itself.

    Lucy, we don't always see eye to eye, nor particularly get along, but I'll attribute that to you and I being very, very similar in temperment and two sisters...but I am not so vain as to not recognize your valuable input to this site and the help and support you've given to many. Same with you rather than immaturely lash back at you, I am extended my hand in hopes that this conversation will continue and that it WILL prove to be a valuable resource for others as they too take that final step to womanhood...if indeed this organization proves to be a scam like so many others, then we've done a real good thing in alerting and warning girls...


      October 30, 2009 7:06 PM GMT
  • I tried the products for 18 months (6 six years ago) and there was little feminization. The feminol did lower the T however and I continued to use it with the patches until being told the two products do not mix..
      October 30, 2009 8:57 PM GMT
  • Thnx Joanne...that is exactly the feedback I am looking for...

      October 30, 2009 9:35 PM GMT
  • Traci, first off, hugs. I think Lucy and I often agree on the hormone issue except that I firmly believe a doctor needs to be involved whenever possible. That is my biggest concern with those taking herbals, and that they are doing so to avoid the doctors. Like Lucy I also believe that the herbals offer some feminizing ability, but I question the amount required to make significant changes. I know last time I went through the website forums for evanesce I read numerous posts describing problems. All I can say is make yourself aware of the potential issues related to these products so you can identify a problem quickly should it arise.
      October 30, 2009 10:15 PM GMT
  • I cannot speak about the effects of estrogens on the body, as I have not seriously tried them. I did play with some of the herbals several years ago but it was like eating grass and just as effective – plus I could only stomach them for a few months.

    However, I can speak of the effects of testosterone blockers. Two years ago, I had a medical condition (low potassium) that required me to take spironolactone for a period for about 3 months. In that time, I noticed a definite tenderness in my breasts, a little puffiness, and a knot that formed under my breasts (all of which I thought was pretty neat). I was not taking estrogens of any sort, so all the changes were just from blocking the big T, and the changes happened quickly.

    My condition was corrected by surgery and I had to stop taking the spironolactone and let me tell you it was a let down. Like an idiot I started taking what was left of my prescription in an attempt to get the changes to start up again (without telling my doctor) – but it made my potassium levels spike to ridiculous levels which my doctor caught right away. Anyway I stopped taking them, but they were powerful.

    Jeri Elaine “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” - Irina Dunn, 1970 Indecision is the key to flexibility. - unknown
      October 31, 2009 12:23 AM GMT
  • There is a reason that Lucy and Marsha are moderators of the HORMONE CITY forum. They were carefully chosen for their knowledge and reliability in the interest of discouraging TW members from taking a poor or dangerous path to hormone therapy. They speak their minds strongly. That is their job. It was a relief to me when they accepted the position. I could stop worrying about what was posted here.

    I am also glad you started this post, Traci. It is always good to have a thread that educates. When someone makes a claim, it is always good to ask: "Who benefits from this?" and be cautious about believing what they say. Often Googling a product, person or company name will show up quickly if they are not what they claim. Many people who expose things on the Internet are good at getting their links up near the front in listings of a search. Some may be false, but you will see many negative links if there is a problem. Some companies/products even have their own ""-type counter-sites (webmaster: Wiley Coyote) PayPal and other well known companies. There you can read counter-arguments.

    Lucy and Marsha are not the "Hormone Police." Think of them more as the Hormone Crossing-Guards. Nice ladies who try to keep girls from getting run over.
    "A live lived in fear is a life half-lived." - Native American proverb. "Inside every man is a woman who was drowned in testosterone before birth". - Wendy Jeanette Larsen "It is better to be hated for what you are than loved for what you're not." - Andre Gide (French writer)
      October 31, 2009 8:15 AM GMT
  • OK...received a reply to a request to respond to some of the comments made...I'm only the messenger here...believe whatever you want...but it is interesting regardless...

    From the principal of the Phoenix Project:

    "quiet in the community"
    I personally have been very active in the TG/TS communities, and in the GLBT communities constantly for almost 30 years. I have personally counseled many thousands of TG/TS people through that period, and I worked with many other community leaders to establish the groundings for the various civil rights laws, and corporate laws which increasingly protect TG/TS people today.

    Money for these efforts comes from sales -- I personally profit very little from the Evanesce sales.
    (I do not own a car made in this century, for example)

    This past week, for example, I have been traveling, teaching and counseling
    TG/TS people at a conference in Massachusetts.

    I do not run a huge slick marketing campaign for our products -- I have chosen to focus on providing the very best products, and giving the best service to people who really care about their health and their successful, minimal loss, transition journey.

    >> I also question why someone who believes strongly enough that they need to go on HRT, would choose such unproven chemicals to put in their bodies. If you can find a doctor who treats transsexuals and recommends to his/her patients that they take herbals, then I might change my opinion. Let me qualify that with a doctor that doesn't make money selling herbals.

    And my response would be to question why people would choose to use dangerous chemicals and drugs,
    most of which these days come from overseas pharmacies with no doctor oversight or checkups....

    For example, the community has spent more than a decade convincing each other, and doctors,
    that Spironolactone is a testosterone blocker.
    It is not, and it was never intended to be, that.

    Spironolactone is a potassium-sparing diuretic; i.e., a drug created to strip water from the human body and to leave potassium behind.

    No one -- NO ONE -- is telling the people in this community that when taking Spironolactone, it is necessary to drink 3-4 liters of water daily to make up for the drug striping water from the body.
    The result is that MANY of our girls suffer from dehydration symptoms -- muscle cramps, flaking skin, brittle nails, headaches, etc etc, with no knowledge of why...

    Spironolactone has what the medical community considers a negative side effect in 10% of the males who use it, of reducing testosterone.

    Please go to
    Read past the several Google Ads sections, to the bottom of that web page.
    Don't just take my word for what Spironolactone does, see what the company which makes it, says.

    And then re-look at what the people in this community are telling each other, every day.
    How many of our sisters have died from dehydration, or done serious body damage to themselves,
    using a drug no one knows they are using?
    One of the other TG web sites I read, had a post about a person taking potassium supplements, for some health condition, and then taking Spironolactone on the sly, for her own purposes.
    Potassium overload is usually fatal.

    Where are the warnings on the drug hormone web sites?
    they are not anywhere.

    Comments about herbals being dangerous are just ignorant. (uneducated)
    Yes -- some herbs are dangerous. But those are not ever used for feminization.

    Most people who state that "herbs don't work", have done less than three months of over the counter herbs,
    and generally have used Estroven, (which does not have enough estrogen to feminize), and Saw Palmetto,
    which in a male body is a precursor for additional testosterone;
    and those people believe that Dong Quai and Black Cohosh somehow *are* estrogen.
    All lies, and yes -- these kinds of "using herbs to feminize" do not, will not, cannot, work.

    "Over the counter herbs" cannot, except in rare cases, feminize a male body.

    Evanesce and Feminol, etc., are FAR removed from being "OTC herbs"
    Our products are based on bio-molecular usage of the active ingredients of various herbs, in ratios known to make each ingredient more powerful than any of them could be on their own....
    and our products include ingredients known for centuries to block testosterone formation.
    These ingredients are used as Standardized and concentrated extracts;
    a person would need to consume hands-full, and bottles-full of OTC herbs daily to get the same overall potency that a few of our capsules provide.

    And because there are no drugs in our formulations, there are no concerns about drug interactions, with only a very few exceptions for major drugs.

    Our formulations are near drug potency, created in the way many drugs are created.

    A significant percentage of born women fear the health safety of the various drug hormones.
    Strange that the TG/TS community, in its rush to achieve the "C" cup, do not seem to care,
    about personal health and safety.

    I hope that the people pushing a drug hormone solution for feminization are also telling their readers to get frequent doctor checkups of kidney and liver function. Drug hormones can destroy those organs.
    I hope, but I know that they are not telling....

    By the way -- many of our ingredients are difficult to manufacture;
    working with molecular extracts of herbs is difficult.

    I choose to make the best possible products,
    backed by research and knowledge of some of THE greatest herbal experts on the planet,
    and yes that means comparatively expensive,
    products which work in total safety, rather that just shove crushed herbs at people.
    By analogy, I sell Lexus, Mercedes, Ferrari, and BMW. I choose to not sell Kia.

    I hope that this helps you to understand!"

    So there you have it... Traci xxxx
      October 31, 2009 3:06 PM GMT
  • Traci, that is a mouthful to respond to but I will try to in a brief way. First off I have never called the Phoenix Project quackery and they may have the best of intentions for what they do. However, if they believe their product is as good as they claim and they want to be the Lexus of herbal treatments, then at a minimum they could get USP certification.

    As for spironolactone, I used that only as an example because most TS gals are familiar of it and what it is used for. I do not use spiro myself. What you fail to realize is pharmaceutical drugs taken for feminization are taken for the side effects of the drug. NO PRODUCT ON THE PLANET WAS DESIGNED TO CHANGE TS MALES INTO FEMALES.

    Last is this nonsense
    Our formulations are near drug potency, created in the way many drugs are created.

    followed by
    And because there are no drugs in our formulations, there are no concerns about drug interactions, with only a very few exceptions for major drugs.

    They are drugs, they are designed to modify body chemistry. And to say they don't have side effects or drug interactions is ridiculous when they don't even have the products tested to standards and have no way of knowing all the possibilities. Right there in the forums are stories of gals having problems.

    And one more thing, I think it was obvious I along with others clearly stated medical supervision and tests should be done..

      October 31, 2009 6:25 PM GMT
  •'s all good...glad to see your worst, we educate others (and myself) about all of the options out there and lure to a "quick fix"...please don't take my posts as gospel or even think there is a hint of anger or otherwise. I truly value my relationship with you and many other girls in here, especially for remaining active in the site when it would be so easy to say "I'm there, done it, move on" if you could see me right now, aside from what I'm wearing, you'd notice a tiny tear emerging from my duct as I am moved by your continued support, concern, and friendship! (smile)
    Thnx for taking the time to review and comment in have no idea how it impacts girls who need that kind of connection.
    Traci xxx
      October 31, 2009 7:35 PM GMT
  • Hugs Traci, it has been so tough debating this knowing you were on the otherside. I honestly understand that not everyone has access to knowledgeable doctors for various reasons and therefore look for alternatives whether overseas pharmacies or non prescription herbals. Others have found for medical reasons that their bodies will not tolerate prescription HRT meds. My deepest concern is for the health and success of all gals. Maybe the Phoenix Project has its pluses and with time will be able to prove their products to the medical and transgender communities. If anything, I hope this debate caused those following it to want to know more and for them to dig deeper to understand as much as they possibly can about feminization products. Both the good and bad need to be understood. You offered up some very valid points which we can all learn from. No matter how you choose to proceed, I wish you the very best always.
      October 31, 2009 8:14 PM GMT
  • Hi Tracy,
    Lots of opinions here,...few with any direct experience.

    Here's what I know:

    By week 4 (taking Evanesce and Feminol daily, plus Red Clover) I had significant enlargement of the mammary fat pad,...swelled to a measurement of 3" difference between bust and under bust or band. This first phase of mammogenesis became visably noticable at week 3. I very noticably found my arm or hand brushing against my bust/nipple every time I raised it.

    By week 3 my areola diameter had increased 1/4", consistant with Tanner stage 2:
    "There is an elevation of the breast and nipple as a small mound and the areola diameter may begin to enlarge. Milk ducts inside the breast begin to grow. "

    My breast measurement called the hemi-circumference (that is, a measurement along the contour of the breast, across your nipple, top to bottom, from where your breast projects away from your chest,...measured in a sitting position) was 13 cm after 4 weeks on E-ES/F. I don't have a pre-feminizing measurement to compare with. I began with 463T and 194E. I'll do a followup at 3 months

    It's an incredible feeling spooning my spouse, mammary pads against her back. I can't seem to keep hands off them during the day,...they are the most beautiful things I've ever touched.

    Some softening of the skin, nipples erotically sensitive, a calmer disposition, less morning or during the day erections, shrinkage yet. I observed a significant difference with the penis within the first 24 hours on Phoenix Project herbs,...including a very pleasant, tingly sensation in the glan.

    No breast buds yet, however I expect them in less than the average time of pharmacuetical feminization. I say this because of the fortunate genetically predisposition of copious amounts of fat cells in my family,..mother and sisters are DD's

    So, for me, feminizing herbs have better results than what I read about the allopathic path.

    There is no Present in Time...Janelle
      March 10, 2010 8:33 AM GMT
  • I would like to point out I modified Janelle's posting by taking out the dosage information she had included. Just as with prescription hormones, TW is not in the business of prescribing or even recommending which hormones or herbals should be taken. That information should be left up to qualified medical personnel.

    However, experiences using various products is most welcome. Everyone needs to understand that as with any medication, results may vary and many of the changes occur over a rather lengthy period of time. Therefore a few weeks may not be indicative of long term results.

      March 10, 2010 12:29 PM GMT
  • Marsha Ann, your modification notice of my post was presented as a true Allopath. Perhaps I can say I take the maximum suggested doses. Interestingly, I also had three starts of my herbal feminization. After the first 4 1/2 days I stopped for 5 days, and then after the second start (3 1/2 days) I stopped for 4 days,...been continuous ever since.

    The two short beginning breaks were dramatic,...urges for erections were markedly increased, and my irritability went way up. I have no idea why Evanesce ES T blockers work, but for me they do, and quickly.

    I understand the allopaths view of results, and a zillion years of perfect duplication needed before something can be printed in their text books. However, my education background is in the Arts, so my veiwpoint is a little different,...such as I wonder if my Italian physiology is perhaps more in resonance with the Evanesce ES T blockers,...or perhaps because in body, mind, and spirit I see myself as female.

    I see my legs, arms, hands, feet, my male body as female. In the past several weeks that "seeing" has only gotten more embedded in my psyche,...somehow my brain has rewired to see myself as fully female. Even though I have more body hair then most, I see myself as female.

    Most of my life I fantasied about having different physical female attributes,...but this is different. This isn't autogynephilia that goes away for awhile after an orgasm. I see myself as a girl 24/7. Thus I feel there is a psychological/emotional aspect of feminization.

    As an apparent Christian, Marsha Ann must somewhat agree that attitude (or prayer) has help many dis-eases to ease. I heard of an experience called Hypno-feminization,...and although I haven't tried it, suggest that anyone feminizing should do all they can to let the full Girl-Within out, to allow the feminization to flow without male (patrifocal) mental blocks.


    There is no Present in Time...Janelle
      March 10, 2010 6:02 PM GMT
  • To start with I have nothing to do with the medical industry however I do work with chemicals so I am very familiar with the testing. I don't have any issues with what you are saying but we have to be cautious that we don't get into all pharmaceuticals are unhealthy and all herbals are good for you.

    Documentation is indispensable for any chemical. Whether or not you want to believe herbals are chemicals, it is the natural chemicals that make up the herb and cause the effect you are after. Nature does not only produce safe chemicals, take arsenic for one example. Even oxygen can be dangerous in the its purest form.

    I hope you stay at TW for sometime to come and keep us updated on your progress. But along with that I hope you take care of your health and have it monitored as need be so no problems arise from this or anything else.

      March 10, 2010 6:28 PM GMT
  • Janelle, my last reply didn't address that last part you brought up about my Christian beliefs and that "attitude (or prayer) has help many dis-eases to ease." Actually no I don't subscribe to that. I believe God gave us science and medicine to take care of our needs. That is my argument to the fundamental churches such as Savannah Christian Church that I battled with last year. God gave us science and medicine, therefore you cannot ignore the things we learn through science to cure diseases or show this as a biological condition. Bottom line is Jesus invited all to his table.

    I have no experience with the hypnotism stuff in relationship to bringing out your girl side. The first time I tried to quit smoking I did use hypnosis and I quit for a few years before the stress of transition led me back. It is not good to smoke and be on hrt and I can only assume the same would or should apply to herbals as well. I again stopped smoking and remain a nonsmoker to this day.


      March 10, 2010 10:45 PM GMT
  • Moderator
    2 1650 2‚ 0
    If you believe that hypnotism, magic pills, or prayer will give you satisfactory feminisation then, well, god help you.
    Once again, estrogen causes feminisation. It’s a lot cheaper than any alternative and at least as safe. There is no “better”.
    It works for me.
      March 10, 2010 11:05 PM GMT
  • Hi Marsha Ann, my mention of your Christianity ("There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28" ) was in the context of having a healthy personal attitide towards feminization.

    Since January 3rd my spouse speaks with me as a female,...and our communication level has grew to levels I've never known. I went from wanting to be a girl, to being a girl,...and wondered if that psychology has helped my feminization. I don't smoke, and only drink (margarittas) occassionally,...however, with two beautiful growing teats (and visible clevage) I feel as being empowered to embrace all sorts of challenges.

    As for herbs, I'm so glad they are working for me. I didn't want to get into a Natural vs Pharmaceutical debate. I've never taken hormones, but have heard and read things about them that don't resonate with me. It was only in January that I heard of Feminizing herbs (while looking breast forms),...and after a month of researching I felt like trying them.

    I joined this forum primarilly for information about the medical aspects of my decission. Well, to be honest, it really wasn't a decission as in I could or not,...I am a female, who has lived as a male for too long,...who has never been fully happy for too long. I just can't pretend to be only a guy any more,'s a lie.

    Any way, I'm certain I'll stay on the Phoenix Project products for awhile. Perhaps my feminization and T levels will reach a point where small amounts of actual hormones will be a good stategy for me. I have read that these herbs with atrophy the testes about 30%, thus reducing the T machines production. A future orchidectomy is surely on the table,...probably in Panama. Until then, allopathy is definitely not my cup of tea.

    There is no Present in Time...Janelle
      March 11, 2010 2:45 AM GMT
  • Marsha Ann writes:
    " Maybe the Phoenix Project has its pluses and with time will be able to prove their products to the medical and transgender communities."

    The Phoenix Project is now in its 21st year (twenty-first year) of making their products available to transgender people around the world.
    Since late 1989....

    I would have to believe that if their products did not work, or were somehow dangerous,
    the company would have been out of business a VERY long time ago.

    There are doctors who buy for, and who recommend the products to their transgender clients,
    and there are some doctors who even use the products themselves.

    Ttransgender/transsexual people who would actually read through the various Message Boards on the Phoenix Project web site,
    will clearly and easily see that the site fully promotes whole body health and life success, full social and family transition and personal health ideals.
    not just breast growth.

      April 20, 2010 3:57 PM BST