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Phoenix Project!

  • Anyone wasting their time and money on eating bits of tree , bush and leaves and roots and other shite are deluding themselves.

    Cristine has taken the time to research this subject deeper than anyone else . Lucy has put lot of effort into it aswell.

    You will not alter your body at-all taking that rubbish. one herbal pill equals half a litre of Soya milk! Drink the Soya milk it is good for you. One large bush equals one tiny prescription 2mg Oestradiol valerate pill! I can't tell you to take the pill I am not your doctor but I think your doctor would say don't eat a bush every day and don't eat the roots for dessert.
    If anyone thinks their breasts are growing through taking herbal Phytoestrogens I hate to use these words but you are growing "man boobs" Man boobs are induced by eating fat and lack of exersize not herbal pills . Maybe the pack says "Take one pill after a triple cheese burger and double fries" I don't know but it should because fat equals man boobs.

    Soya milk contains Phytoestrogens! It will also lower your cholesterol but it won't make your boobs grow just as the herbal pills won't either.

    Don't take notice of me I put in simple terms "but" do take notice of the ones who have taken the time and trouble and researched it for you.

    Julia.

      December 5, 2012 8:35 PM GMT
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  • Thanks Cristine!!!!

    :-)

    Karri
      May 3, 2010 8:17 PM BST
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  • Karri

    The hemmingway link on my posting and Lucys and Marshas postings they are very knowledgable on real mones. and i dont think their opinions are just based on bias, they have bot studied and have a vast knowledge of what good and whats bad. read the whole thread.

    cristine
    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      May 3, 2010 8:08 PM BST
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  • WOW!

    Now that's about the most debate/lengthy discussion I have ever seen here ion a few years.

    Does anyone know of any non-tech-speak books on herbals/supplements and their effects/side effects? Something independent; not from a manufacturer or such. Something form someone in the TG community would be ideal. I could Gogle it and go through a bunch of ones, but one of you girls probably knows just the right article or book.

    Lets face it, not all are bad, we just often use high doses &/or in the wrong way with exaggerated hopes.

    Thanks to anyone who can help!

    Sincerely,

    Karri
      May 3, 2010 7:36 PM BST
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  • After all is said and done, I'm sorry I even brought the topic up...y'all are just going to have to meet me someday (or vice versa) to see for yourselves.

    One last point...please do not rip into Dianna...she pretty much stands alone in the TG community here in the US with what she is doing with her products. They ARE different than virtually ALL of the other offerings in the herbal world. 21 years of painstaking time to get it right, not to schlep junk on the ignorant and desperate amongst us in the community. She sticks her neck out daily despite criticisms from the non-believers and plugs forward, not motivated by getting rich, but by pure motive of helping those of us along the way. The Phoenix Project is not her pprimay goal...she spends an inordinate amount of time lecturing, addressing, and educating the general public on all issues regarding GLBT and has been a mentor to many. She has been politically active on all issues for many years and has devoted her life to our community. It is not about the money girls...frankly, we should be grateful she has come to our site to share information and dialog. She is not an adversary and her products do not harm others.

    Let's put it to rest now...and while we're at it, let's welcome Dianna to our site. Her transition is as valid as any one of you and her full time activism for our cause, for our basic rights as humans ought to allow her the common decency or courtesy of at least accepting her as a peer, not some carnival huckster that she has been so wrongly accused or insinuated as being. She could be a huge resource to GS and I thought that this was what it was all about...for us to do any less is shameful and maybe we deserve to shrink and evaporate into a narrow minded, closed world undeserved of those who are really out there daily trying to blaze a path for our acceptance and all the girls that follow us...

    Amen...

    Traci

    traciogara@yahoo.com (for any that wish to carry this on further or add comments or have any questions or want to see "proof" of effectiveness)
    <p>Traci</p>
      April 30, 2010 6:00 AM BST
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  • That's fine with me
    Hugs,
    Marsha
      April 28, 2010 8:11 PM BST
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  • My last word, Marsha it was as far as I was concerned, about Herbals for transitioning not working and substantiating why they don't work , and the more negative aspects of going that route. not pros and cons for choice, I'm with Lucy on this one.

    Cristine.
    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      April 28, 2010 8:09 PM BST
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  • Big hugs Cris. You brought up lots of good valid info and I for one greatly appreciate it. I don't think either side of the argument is backing down in anyway. This was never about someone should not use herbals. This was about sharing personal opinions on why we favor one over the other along with providing supporting documentation. Just because I don't favor herbal use because there is a lack of documentation showing proper use and dosage, doesn't mean I don't think herbals could have their place. I'm not taking sides on this issue. Taking any kind of medication, pharmaceutical or herbal, is a big decision in an individuals life. They need all the information they can get in order to make a wise decision and that is what this forum and thread are about. It definitely isn't about my HRT regimen is better than someone else's.

    Also I am not getting on you for starting a CD vs TS thread. I was just pointing out pharmaceuticals versus herbals seems to bring out the same type of battles. Nothing else, so please don't read anymore into that.

    Hugs,
    Marsha



      April 28, 2010 7:31 PM BST
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  • Nit picking, I only realy see this thread going from a will it, won't it to a perhaps scenario, A lot of claims without any real documentary based evidence for or against, just opinions, I have tried to present factual and indesputable evidence to support my opinions and for that reason I won't be investing, i'm out.

    Someone quotes a doctor wrote, you either prove the doctor did not write it, or you find substantiated evidence that what the doctor wrote was rubbish. someone quotes an ISO reference to substantiate a test, you prove that the ISO reference is either rubbish or the official records of the test bears no resemblence to the report displayed. Bit like printing your own road tax and not needing an MOT then, or getting a certified true copy of the MOT failure certificate..

    I'll go and devote time on the procrastination thread get some practice . Leave all the experts to procrastinate here.


    Cristine

    PS. I started one of the TS versus TV/CD thread, because I was genuinely upset and perturbed about some of the personal, negative comments I had witnessed in the forums, chat room and real life. why that had to be raked up again as an example of stuff thats going on here bears no relevance and I think its rather an inane comment to make..
    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      April 28, 2010 5:38 PM BST
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  • Well, after posting and reading the counter posts and the adverse reactions to each corresponding discourse, the progress to this thread has sufficiently dissolved, to a bottomless quagmire.

    As Marsha accurately stated, "this thread was headed towards the end is everyone was nit picking, looking for a molecule to use against the other.

    I think we all should step back for a coffee break.
    Huggs.....Tammy
    <p>A life without purpose, is a life without reason!</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>&nbsp;myspace.com/tammybrianne</p>
      April 28, 2010 3:23 PM BST
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  • Cris, you took that quote out of context, I think you need to go back and see what it was in reference to. It was a joking statement in reference to a comment Dainna's competitor said. My problem with where this thread was headed towards the end is everyone was nit picking, looking for a molecule to use against the other.
    Hugs,
    Marsha
      April 28, 2010 12:15 PM BST
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  • Marhsa said

    Thank you so much Cris for bringing up that study so the safety of this substance could be exposed. We will have to add Cris to the list of those here running herbal lovers off, lol.


    I said

    Its not my intention to run anyone off, Herbals obviously have their place, but every possible authority and clinical evaluation is
    Herbals are of very little use or none at all when it comes to male to female transitioning.

    It is an open forum, Marsha you entered the discussion as is your right with lots of valid reasons observations now you are complaining that the thread has taken a poor turn, you allowed yourself to be sidetracked.

    Perhaps I’m getting paranoid, or just a blonde moment Thinking perhaps some of my posts have caused this thread to meander and sink to a poor state….ie, my clarification of how toxicity is measured on a logarithmic scale lol. But you do tend to draw people in getting people interested, which is a good thing.

    By analogy, I sell Lexus, Mercedes, Ferrari, and BMW. I choose to not sell Kia.
    An extract to something Traci posted reputedly something Dainna had written to her.

    At least Dainna is entering into a dialogue, as opposed to the antagonistic and sometimes purerile utterings of the other person. ( name withheld as its rather a sensitive subject here in GS) even if its full of distractions, discussing other product issues. Perhaps Dainnas products are ‘’Lexus. Mercedes, Ferrari and BMW, in the herbal world but compared to natural oestrogenic patented medicines they are all Kia.

    I would not go the herbal route, not so much as to what I know, more what I don’t know and cannot find out from independent recognised clinical testing bodies.

    Dainnas competitor is quoting ISO numbers for her testing and references to WHO approval on her web site. I can find no registration on the SSO list for her particular product, registration or approval or testing by independent authorities in fact the ISO number she refers to seems to be for a waterproofing conditioner for concrete. Nice website tho, eye catching and believable hype. (competitors name withheld as its rather a sensitive subject here in GS)

    But I refer back to Wendy Larsens post in this thread, Lucy and Marsha were elected to this forum because of their research and vast knowledge..






    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      April 28, 2010 8:56 AM BST
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  • Moderator
    1638 1‚ 0
    Firstly, I am not dissing or writing off herbal based products in general. Dainna’s comments about wildly variant types of herbal based products may or may not be true, but are not relevant to the question of whether or not alternatives to human estradiol will feminise the body adequately. To compare beer or fish with drugs or herbal hormones is mere distraction; nothing to do with what we are supposed to be talking about here in the hormone forum. Marsha is right, and this thread is taking yet more bizarre twists at every turn.
    But just to highlight that I do not write off herbs per se
    I grow herbs, parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme, yes really, and so on. I think fresh herbs are good for me. I use lemon balm from my garden to treat my occasional cold sores and shingles outbreaks. I concoct elderberry cordial to drink during the cold-ridden winter months. I make avocado face-packs from actual avocados, I don’t use some green gunk out of a bottle that contains sodium lauryl sulphate etc. I bathe in coconut oil and sea-salt; I don’t put chemicals in my bath. I avoid MSG and artificial sweeteners. I could go on…
    I’m a bit of a hippie. But eating plants or beans, even with the plant or beany material taken out is not going to adequately feminise my body. For this I need the human hormone that has feminised women for as long as women have existed. This is not about beer or fish or spaghetti or even herbs, all of which I love. This is about a simple truth of human physiology:
    Human oestrogen feminises the human body.
    It will work for you. Nothing is safer, nothing is better.
    Using horse oestrogen, or what are known as “synthetic hormones” are undoubtedly risky to our health, but we no longer have to use these. The herbalists are still cashing in on the risks that are associated with those drugs. The newer, bio-identical hormones are NOT proven to carry such risks. To answer your rhetorical question Marsha, it’s not just Thai surgeons or those particular hormones; ALL medicines come under scrutiny when surgery is imminent. The surgeon does not request their suspension because they are not safe drugs. This is another topic entirely, but yours is a far from logical conclusion from such a specific instance.
    Since it is not commercially practical to extract human oestrogen from human bodies, due to the wonders of modern science, because it’s not all doom and gloom you know, we can now recreate oestrogen from natural products in a laboratory. The fact that it is modified in such a way means that it comes under the jurisdiction of health authorities and suchlike. Herbal alternatives to this, possibly thousands of times weaker in effects, but more toxic and requiring massively higher dosages, are treated as food products, and as such they can get away with murder. No warnings necessary, no extensive testing required to get them on the market, and perhaps most dangerously, sellers of herbals post prolifically on the internet claiming, even still in this thread, that their herbals are safe and modern science is going to kill us.
    Human oestrogen, even when produced in a lab, is a NATURAL product.
    Oestrogen feminises the human body, and thanks to this, “humanity has survived for many thousands of years”.

    “And you are also aware that there is a significant debate over the potential dangers involved with transfer of the enzyme in Finasteride which can be passed into a natal female, via semen?”
    Yes I’ve heard this suggestion, but it’s never going to be a problem with me, seriously.
    Finasteride is not a hormone, and I’m not here to defend it’s safety or efficacy, but I do use it, with no problems.
    I never heard that about Tilapia though. I’ve eaten it many times, my penis hasn’t grown back yet…

    Now please, let’s not detract from what most of here would like to discuss. I mean, spaghetti, really..?
    xx
    <p><span style="font-family: 'book antiqua', palatino; font-size: medium; color: #000080;">"Stop aspiring to be other people and start being you."</span></p> <p>Gok Wan</p>
      April 28, 2010 12:39 AM BST
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  • To all reading the thread...

    Marsha hit it on the head as in sharing experiences...for me, I got tired of hearing that there is only one safe way to achieve their goals...I have always been seeking a holistic approach to living and had migrated to a healthier lifestyle over the years...herbals have replaced medicines in many instances. Sharing again, I have not had as much as a sniffle, headache, or joint pain in almost three years (coinciding with lifestyle change)...coincidence? I think not...and my body has feminized beyond belief in 6 short months...

    Anyhow, take what I have written for what it's worth...none of you have met me face to face yet other than one girl, so unless you do your own research, consult with experts in their fields, seek medical opinions and care, then you're all taking a risk listening to anybody's advice.

    I have said enough...nothing I can add that will help or dispel either opinion....just wanted to share what I've done in the event that others might seek alternative ways...

    Typo on E count...it's 294 not 94...got a bit excited there...

    Anyhow, appreciate everyone's input...please do not make this a forum for personal attacks on each other. If you have any questions, contact me via email...will gladly share what I have learned, pros and cons...

    Traci xxx
    <p>Traci</p>
      April 28, 2010 12:08 AM BST
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  • This poor topic is getting pretty beat up. Arguing prescription versus herbal is equivalent to the CD versus TS issue. I believe we need to cautiously approach the subject and avoid the this is better than that approach.

    I don't believe this forum is here to promote any product and that includes estradiol or any other pharmaceutical, along with herbal products.

    We don't discuss dosages here because we are not doctors and do not know other individuals well enough to make recommendations.

    This forum should be used to discuss experiences, good or bad, as to how a product has worked or not worked. Not "will" work or "won't" work.

    Safety should always be the greatest concern and even trumps someone's desire to transition as soon as possible.

    Along the lines of safety, anything discussed needs documentation. I don't necessarily mean documentation that a product is "safe", but what is the product so if a safety issue ever arose, proper attention could be given. And that is where I believe this thread is going wrong. This thread has become this product is better, or this is safe and that is not. None of this stuff is safe. If estradiol was so darn safe, why does every last Thai surgeon have you stop taking it weeks before SRS? I even stated one of my medications taken at a higher dose killed 50% of the men who took it. And herbals without any third party testing as to side effects, dosing, or what the product is used for is not acceptable.

    Dainna has been incredibly upfront about her product and has provided a great deal of information on both herbals and pharmaceutical products. Traci has been gracious enough to share her experiences with us. Personally I don't believe either has justified the product in question, but I believe the two of them did a better job conveying what this forum is really about. They shared experiences and answered questions the best they could. I am not at all sold on herbals, but I am tired of accusations associated with herbals.

    Hugs,
    Marsha
      April 27, 2010 11:01 PM BST
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  • Alison writes:
    Having tried the herbal route about 10 years ago

    What all herbs did you use?

    At what dosage?

    For how long?
      April 27, 2010 6:54 PM BST
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  • Having tried the herbal route about 10 years ago I can totally recommend them. Not because I have female development.....they did nothing visible but bloody hell I tasted nice!
      April 27, 2010 6:07 PM BST
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  • Christine writes:
    "See where I'm coming from? "

    Yes, I do.

    The point I was trying to make, though, is that toxicity levels are often SO high as to be ridiculous;
    and most people only want to see "toxicity", and not "at what level of intake".

    In the mid 1970's, the FDA moved to ban the artificial sweetener Saccharin from all soda pop in the USA;
    based on toxicity testing with rats/mice.
    The equivalent amount of saccharin to actually BE toxic to a human being,
    would have been -- if memory serves -- 80-100 cans of soda pop every day.
    The ban was lifted in 2001.

    Saccharin is still rarely used as an artificial sweetener additive in soda pop;
    the far more dangerous Aspartame is now the chemical of choice for sweetener additives/substitutes.

    Saccharin is the chemical in the pink packets -- primarily Sweet 'n Low.

    The bottom line in all of this, is that
    (1) our world here in America, is filled with chemicals.... most of the common foods we eat
    have -- over the past 20 years -- become filled with chemicals and hormones and antibiotics.
    Most beef, most chicken, most dairy products, in particular.

    Processed foods have become filled with chemicals such as Monosodium Glutamate (MSG)
    high fructose corn syrup, and hydrolyzed vegetable oils (which become trans-fatty acids in our bodies when we eat those products).

    And also Bovine Growth Hormone (rBGH), which infects virtually all commercially available beef,
    and the rBGH equivalent given to mass market chickens.

    Watch the movies "Food, Inc,", and "SuperSize Me", to get an overview of these problem.

    Also, did you know that that the farm-grown fish called Tilapia, is filled with testosterone?
    They use testosterone in the growth ponds to change the females to males, because males grow faster and taster better.
    Cooking the fish, does not nullify the testosterone.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thecheckout/2008/07/transsexual_tilapia.html
    http://www.naturalnews.com/026006_tilapia_testosterone_food.html

    (2) On the other side, over the past 10-20 years, non-drug companies have been re-writing the "book" on what herbal based products are capable of doing to improve human health.

    And so we have research and wonderous products for -- as an example -- overcoming what is currently being called an epidemic of vitamin D3 shortage.
    D3, is NOT a drug, current forms are not patented chemical drug concoctions;
    my 92 year old mother was recently given a 50,000 iu shot of D3 by her PCP Doctor.
    Many doctors are highly recommending that people use 1,000 iu, to 6,000 iu daily, and more.

    Likewise, doctors are highly recommending that people take supplemental Omega-3, daily.
    Fish oils are the common source for Omega-3.

    Beer is an herbal based product (barley malt, rice, hops), as are rum (sugar cane) and vodka (potatoes).

    Spaghetti is an herbal-based meal which is VERY healthy, especially if home-made;
    wheat for the noodles, licopene from the tomatoes in the sauce, olive oil, garlic, onions, and all the other herbs which people use in a good sauce....
    All are VERY good for human health.
    However, mass market spaghetti sauces also have chemicals like MSG, high fructose corn syrup, hydrolyzed vegetable oil, etc.

    Do not be too quick to write off, to Diss, herbal based products.
    Properly used herbs, are how humanity has survived for many thousands of years.






      April 27, 2010 5:01 PM BST
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  • Tammy writes:
    "And I never said that you could not..... as Dainna wrote...Soooo, I must rule out Saw Palmetto, as having any help for BPH."
    Please read my whole post again..... My my you are so defensive for what ever reason.
    I wrote in the last paragraph .Tammy wrote......I will not rule out all herbal products that may be given at prescription type strength, and monitored by a qualified doctor.
    Dainna, I will just give you the benefit of the doubt, that you over looked a few things in my post, for what ever reason. "

    I am confused:
    Here is the entire paragraph Tammy posted:
    "This past 10 months I have been on half a MG of Avodart ( finasteride ) and 8MG of Cardura. My prostrate has gotten smaller on these doctor prescribed medicines.
    Soooo, I must rule out Saw Palmetto, as having any help for BPH.
    I also know quite a few people my age and older ( 63 + ) that have tried herbal products for this ( BPH ) to no avail. When I say quite a few, means more than ten.

    So I am confused about being "defensive" and of "over looked a few things in my post, for what ever reason"

    ????
      April 27, 2010 3:17 PM BST
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  • Lucy writes:
    "“All medicines may cause side effects, but many people have no, or minor, side effects. No COMMON side effects have been reported with Finasteride.”
    Side effects with Finasteride are rare, so it’s not fair to say that they work for most people but will have negative side-effects."

    Yes -- and yet, the drug is potentially dangerous enough that is supposed to be available only via doctor's prescription,
    with routine checkups to make certain it is neither causing damage, nor being overused, overdosed.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20100401/hl_hsn/studyrevivesdebateonprostatedrug

    Lucy writes:
    And yes, I for one am aware that Finasteride should not be handled by pregnant women;
    I suspect most of us are. I won’t be asking any natal females to chop up my tablets. "

    And you are also aware that there is a significant debate over the potential dangers
    involved with transfer of the enzyme in Finasteride which can be passed into a natal female, via semen?

    I am not saying that Finasteride should not be used.
    And I am not willing to agree that it is a benign drug, either.
    Its sale and usage are controlled by the medical community.

    Lucy writes:
    "Bio-identical oestrogen, already present in your body, is a very safe "medicine". It is made from the same raw ingredients as some herbal products, but is modified to make the end product identical to human oestrogen, requiring considerably smaller doses and thereby reducing toxicity.

    Yes -- that is what Standardized and Concentrated extracts of herbs are all about.
    These processes extract and gather just the active ingredients of herbs,
    so that smaller dosages can be used to produce the same outcomes, and to reduce toxicity.

    This is the same as extracting THC and CBC from the herb marijuana, for medicinal uses.
    http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=6057
    http://www.mesotheliomanews.com/2009/12/31/marijuana-extracts/

    This is not just about feminizing herbs,
    this is about herbs which have become the basis of many many drugs, from aspirin to Lovastatin.

    I am not saying that herbs are all "good",
    and I am not saying that prescription drugs are all "bad".




      April 27, 2010 3:10 PM BST
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  • As far as I am aware toxicity in the human body is not measured on an analogue scale gram per kilo for an induced substance, but on a logrithmic scale. Ratio's depending on the substance induced and the efficiency of the imune system and the organs ability to filter the toxins, and the age of the test subject in this case being a rat....,. if the method of induction reamins the same, ie, orally.

    ie. if a substance introduced to a 1 Kg rat at 1 gm = a toxic reading of say 1 part per million and 2 gms were introduce into a 2kg rat the toxic count might be 3 parts per million in the 2Kg rat.

    As the amount of introduced substance increases the gain curve in toxicity curves up even sharper. so in a 4Kg rat it could be as high as 12 parts per million.

    Its also a recognised fact that as the doses are increased the rise in toxicity far outweighs the efacy of the drugs desired effect.

    Thats why patented medicines are not prescribed on a double the dose basis.

    See where I'm coming from?


    Cristine

    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      April 27, 2010 11:58 AM BST
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  • Dainna,
    Please, read my whole post, before a comment, it was short.

    I am surprised that you could glean what you wrote from my post. I see that your being very defensive but, read, and please don't assume as to what I bought and what my friends, and brother bought. I paid a good some of money for OTC Saw Palmetto I bought just like your OTC products that you are seemingly defending for what ever your reason maybe.

    I wrote just lower, in the post...Tammy wrote.....I also know quite a few people my age and older ( 63 + ) that have tried herbal products for this ( BPH ) to no avail. When I say quite a few, means more than ten. Please note, it was more than just two people.

    And I never said that you could not..... as Dainna wrote...Soooo, I must rule out Saw Palmetto, as having any help for BPH."
    Please read my whole post again..... My my you are so defensive for what ever reason.

    I wrote in the last paragraph .Tammy wrote......I will not rule out all herbal products that may be given at prescription type strength, and monitored by a qualified doctor.

    Dainna, I will just give you the benefit of the doubt, that you over looked a few things in my post, for what ever reason.

    Tammy
    <p>A life without purpose, is a life without reason!</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>&nbsp;myspace.com/tammybrianne</p>
      April 27, 2010 5:11 AM BST
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  • Traci, I don't want to burst your bubble and I hope you are healthy and seeing some results but let me point out a couple things on your lab results.

    Women's testosterone levels typically range from 6-86ng/dl
    Men's testosterone levels typically range from 240-800
    So your level is very low for a male but higher than a female.

    There are 3 measurements for estrogen, E1, E2, and Total Estrogen. So you need to know which test you had. E1 and Total are worthless numbers as they do not effect transition like E2 (estradiol) does.
    E2 levels should be 200-600pg/ml
    So you are way low.
    My E2 has ranged from 341 (see attached photo) - 691pg/ml
    one of my labs : http://gendersociety.com/[...]asc=ASC
    references: http://www.fertilityplus.[...]ls.html

    Hugs,
    Marsha
      April 27, 2010 3:37 AM BST
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  • Hey...I started this thread a while back and now, 4 days shy of 6 months of using recommended protocol from the site, will give you a short summary of what it has done for me...
    of using prescribed meds or herbals from a licensed, experienced in the TG world, medical doctor. There are pros and cons for each, but I selected the herbals for health reasons. The only negative when comparing the herbals to the prescribed was the cost. (OK, and perhaps official FDA documentation of approval, but herbals don't swim in that water anyhow) The herbals cost more than the prescriptions would. But it was not significant difference nor worth the risk of the potential health risk associated with prescribed. Anyhow, before THAT paragraph lights up another flame, let me share with you...

    I will be 60 this summer...

    Medical exams have found that my BP has dropped slightly, but was always and still is in the very good range, 110/72 give or take 2-4 depending on when taken.
    Pulse has remained steady at approx. 68-72/bpm

    Here's the fun part...testosterone is measured at 140 whatevers...as in *poof*...
    Estrogen measured at 94 whatever that meant (I forget the exact terminology and type of test)
    Those are female levels...(smile)

    Skin is much softer...not "placebo" effect...
    Waist has come in from a 36 to to 33 and has moved "up" my torso... \ /
    Forget measuring breasts in traditional band/cup size...suffice to say that although I have shed 35 pounds in literally one year (by design), breast tissue beneath surface of skin has increased to a "frightening" level! Frightening as in "holy crap, this stuff really works and I'll NEVER be able to go topless in male mode again". They have taken a true femme shape. Not huge, but decidedly female shaped with a LOT of duct, gland. and fat tissue to support them. Oh, I have lactated often...small amounts, but REAL. Tight knit tops reveal a women's chest, flat, but female.
    Thighs have thickened recently in the upper parts and I can close them together now, where in the past, I had too much "bow" in my legs to keep them tightly together.
    Butt cheeks have widened and developed their own roundness that used to be a flat man's butt...can wear a bikini bottom now and it looks terrific!
    Male organs have shrunk some and no longer "work" the way they used to, if at all at times.
    Visual things no longer "excite" and overall demeanor has changed, softened if you will...far more pleasant, agreeable, understanding than ever...also cried once over road kill! WTF!!!

    I could add more, but this is beating a dead horse...

    Let me ask you, is it possible, just possible that these herbals COULD work? Is it also possible that they are healthy and actually do positive things to your body? How do you explain shrinking or vanished varicose veins which I had had since 1973? Or hair regrowth in a somewhat thinning forehead or crown?

    Please site members, and I do and always will respect your opinions, but this is not a sales pitch designed to make Dianna rich...if you pay any attention to the TG or GLBT world in the US, you 'll know what I mean...I am thrilled for all the girls that have gone prescribed route and have gotten results they were seeking...what hasn't been brought up ever are the girls who go prescribed and kill themselves due to hormone imbalance, or ruin their internal organs due to spiro, or just do not get what they were hoping for all their lives...I'd never say that prescribed doesn't work...it does and has for so many and that is a good thing...but I will say that the herbals have worked for me beyond my expectations thus far...

    AND, if things change and I get sick or develop an issue I will share that too...but it is unlikely based on teaming with proper protocol and medical exams....

    OK...now beat me again...

    Traci
    <p>Traci</p>
      April 27, 2010 1:36 AM BST
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  • Moderator
    1638 1‚ 0
    Dainna’s statement: “There are many people for whom Avodart, and finasteride, do not "work", either. But those drugs do "work" for most people, albiet with several negative side effects....”
    is somewhat misleading. In the link that she posted it states:
    “Finasteride is generally well tolerated; adverse reactions usually have been mild and transient.”
    And:
    “All medicines may cause side effects, but many people have no, or minor, side effects. No COMMON side effects have been reported with Finasteride.”
    Side effects with Finasteride are rare, so it’s not fair to say that they work for most people but will have negative side-effects. I take it by the way, without any side-effects. Studies have shown that even tiny doses can help prevent hair loss.
    All medicines are required to carry warnings that they may cause side-effects and must list pretty much ANY side-effect that has ever been reported with their use. Hence the long list of seemingly terrifying things that might happen to you, but actually, probably won’t. This is further compounded with, for example, bio-identical estradiol, where all the possible dangers of all other forms of HRT are included in the list, despite no-one ever having suffered them using the actual product in question. Premarin and ethinylestradiol have been proven to carry some risks, estradiol has not, but they still say that it might do on the packet. Perhaps it’s better to be over-cautious, or perhaps it just provides ammo for the herbalists.
    Herbal products, as far as I’m aware, are not required to state possible, potential or inevitable side-effects on their packaging, or carry any warnings at all. Perhaps they should.

    I would hope that anyone taking medicines would read the enclosed information leaflets. And yes, I for one am aware that Finasteride should not be handled by pregnant women; I suspect most of us are. I won’t be asking any natal females to chop up my tablets.

    Constantly on this forum, members and moderators alike point out the possible side-effects and potential dangers of drugs and especially of their irresponsible, unsupervised use. We do not need scare tactics from someone who sells herbal products suggesting, tacitly or otherwise, that medicines are dangerous and herbals are safe. At least, the ones that they sell are safe…

    We don’t disallow discussion of alternatives to hormones here, but we are, with good reason, wary of people who sell them and come here to say how good they are, and how bad standard medicines are. This thread seems to be heading that way. Future posts may be hidden without further warning.

    For the sake of balance…
    Bio-identical oestrogen, already present in your body, is a very safe "medicine". It is made from the same raw ingredients as some herbal products, but is modified to make the end product identical to human oestrogen, requiring considerably smaller doses and thereby reducing toxicity. Herbals may be hundreds or thousands of times weaker than human oestrogen. To use Dainna’s own analogy, eat enough soy beans and you will die.
    Sadly, you will die with little or no breasts.
    <p><span style="font-family: 'book antiqua', palatino; font-size: medium; color: #000080;">"Stop aspiring to be other people and start being you."</span></p> <p>Gok Wan</p>
      April 27, 2010 1:30 AM BST
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