Phoenix Project!

    • 1912 posts
    April 27, 2010 11:01 PM BST
    This poor topic is getting pretty beat up. Arguing prescription versus herbal is equivalent to the CD versus TS issue. I believe we need to cautiously approach the subject and avoid the this is better than that approach.

    I don't believe this forum is here to promote any product and that includes estradiol or any other pharmaceutical, along with herbal products.

    We don't discuss dosages here because we are not doctors and do not know other individuals well enough to make recommendations.

    This forum should be used to discuss experiences, good or bad, as to how a product has worked or not worked. Not "will" work or "won't" work.

    Safety should always be the greatest concern and even trumps someone's desire to transition as soon as possible.

    Along the lines of safety, anything discussed needs documentation. I don't necessarily mean documentation that a product is "safe", but what is the product so if a safety issue ever arose, proper attention could be given. And that is where I believe this thread is going wrong. This thread has become this product is better, or this is safe and that is not. None of this stuff is safe. If estradiol was so darn safe, why does every last Thai surgeon have you stop taking it weeks before SRS? I even stated one of my medications taken at a higher dose killed 50% of the men who took it. And herbals without any third party testing as to side effects, dosing, or what the product is used for is not acceptable.

    Dainna has been incredibly upfront about her product and has provided a great deal of information on both herbals and pharmaceutical products. Traci has been gracious enough to share her experiences with us. Personally I don't believe either has justified the product in question, but I believe the two of them did a better job conveying what this forum is really about. They shared experiences and answered questions the best they could. I am not at all sold on herbals, but I am tired of accusations associated with herbals.

    Hugs,
    Marsha
    • 746 posts
    April 28, 2010 12:08 AM BST
    To all reading the thread...

    Marsha hit it on the head as in sharing experiences...for me, I got tired of hearing that there is only one safe way to achieve their goals...I have always been seeking a holistic approach to living and had migrated to a healthier lifestyle over the years...herbals have replaced medicines in many instances. Sharing again, I have not had as much as a sniffle, headache, or joint pain in almost three years (coinciding with lifestyle change)...coincidence? I think not...and my body has feminized beyond belief in 6 short months...

    Anyhow, take what I have written for what it's worth...none of you have met me face to face yet other than one girl, so unless you do your own research, consult with experts in their fields, seek medical opinions and care, then you're all taking a risk listening to anybody's advice.

    I have said enough...nothing I can add that will help or dispel either opinion....just wanted to share what I've done in the event that others might seek alternative ways...

    Typo on E count...it's 294 not 94...got a bit excited there...

    Anyhow, appreciate everyone's input...please do not make this a forum for personal attacks on each other. If you have any questions, contact me via email...will gladly share what I have learned, pros and cons...

    Traci xxx
    • 1912 posts
    April 28, 2010 12:15 PM BST
    Cris, you took that quote out of context, I think you need to go back and see what it was in reference to. It was a joking statement in reference to a comment Dainna's competitor said. My problem with where this thread was headed towards the end is everyone was nit picking, looking for a molecule to use against the other.
    Hugs,
    Marsha
    • 308 posts
    April 28, 2010 3:23 PM BST
    Well, after posting and reading the counter posts and the adverse reactions to each corresponding discourse, the progress to this thread has sufficiently dissolved, to a bottomless quagmire.

    As Marsha accurately stated, "this thread was headed towards the end is everyone was nit picking, looking for a molecule to use against the other.

    I think we all should step back for a coffee break.
    Huggs.....Tammy
    • 1912 posts
    April 28, 2010 7:31 PM BST
    Big hugs Cris. You brought up lots of good valid info and I for one greatly appreciate it. I don't think either side of the argument is backing down in anyway. This was never about someone should not use herbals. This was about sharing personal opinions on why we favor one over the other along with providing supporting documentation. Just because I don't favor herbal use because there is a lack of documentation showing proper use and dosage, doesn't mean I don't think herbals could have their place. I'm not taking sides on this issue. Taking any kind of medication, pharmaceutical or herbal, is a big decision in an individuals life. They need all the information they can get in order to make a wise decision and that is what this forum and thread are about. It definitely isn't about my HRT regimen is better than someone else's.

    Also I am not getting on you for starting a CD vs TS thread. I was just pointing out pharmaceuticals versus herbals seems to bring out the same type of battles. Nothing else, so please don't read anymore into that.

    Hugs,
    Marsha



    • 1912 posts
    April 28, 2010 8:11 PM BST
    That's fine with me
    Hugs,
    Marsha
    • 746 posts
    April 30, 2010 6:00 AM BST
    After all is said and done, I'm sorry I even brought the topic up...y'all are just going to have to meet me someday (or vice versa) to see for yourselves.

    One last point...please do not rip into Dianna...she pretty much stands alone in the TG community here in the US with what she is doing with her products. They ARE different than virtually ALL of the other offerings in the herbal world. 21 years of painstaking time to get it right, not to schlep junk on the ignorant and desperate amongst us in the community. She sticks her neck out daily despite criticisms from the non-believers and plugs forward, not motivated by getting rich, but by pure motive of helping those of us along the way. The Phoenix Project is not her pprimay goal...she spends an inordinate amount of time lecturing, addressing, and educating the general public on all issues regarding GLBT and has been a mentor to many. She has been politically active on all issues for many years and has devoted her life to our community. It is not about the money girls...frankly, we should be grateful she has come to our site to share information and dialog. She is not an adversary and her products do not harm others.

    Let's put it to rest now...and while we're at it, let's welcome Dianna to our site. Her transition is as valid as any one of you and her full time activism for our cause, for our basic rights as humans ought to allow her the common decency or courtesy of at least accepting her as a peer, not some carnival huckster that she has been so wrongly accused or insinuated as being. She could be a huge resource to GS and I thought that this was what it was all about...for us to do any less is shameful and maybe we deserve to shrink and evaporate into a narrow minded, closed world undeserved of those who are really out there daily trying to blaze a path for our acceptance and all the girls that follow us...

    Amen...

    Traci

    [email protected] (for any that wish to carry this on further or add comments or have any questions or want to see "proof" of effectiveness)
  • May 3, 2010 7:36 PM BST
    WOW!

    Now that's about the most debate/lengthy discussion I have ever seen here ion a few years.

    Does anyone know of any non-tech-speak books on herbals/supplements and their effects/side effects? Something independent; not from a manufacturer or such. Something form someone in the TG community would be ideal. I could Gogle it and go through a bunch of ones, but one of you girls probably knows just the right article or book.

    Lets face it, not all are bad, we just often use high doses &/or in the wrong way with exaggerated hopes.

    Thanks to anyone who can help!

    Sincerely,

    Karri
  • May 3, 2010 8:17 PM BST
    Thanks Cristine!!!!

    :-)

    Karri
    • Moderator
    • 1652 posts
    October 30, 2009 1:50 AM GMT
    If you want to feminise your body why don’t you take human estrogen? It has worked just fine for half the population of the human race since time immemorial.
    There are some strongly misleading claims on this website about so-called “drug hormones”. They cite Premarin as an example. Don’t take Premarin.
    They don’t specifically mention readily, and in most countries legally available bio-identical hormones, which can be bought from Inhouse Pharmacy at a fraction of the cost of any other alternative “magic pill” (their words) on the market.
    Bio-identical hormones are the same as human hormones, they do not have the same risks and side-effects of other synthetic hormones, or for that matter, of “herbal hormones”. They are an extremely safe and time-tested method of feminising the body.
    It works for natal females, why take anything else? Why spend a fortune on magic pills? Why are so many people so eager to believe the marketing hype that a certain magic pill is better than the wondrous chemical made in the human body that is called…
    Estrogen.
    Forget the phyto/xeno/ethinyl/equine/herbal/syntho/quacko prefixes.
    Human bodies are feminised by estrogen. There is no better product.
    xx
    • Moderator
    • 1652 posts
    October 30, 2009 2:16 AM GMT
    "Estrogen is estrogen...”
    It is, but phyto-estrogen is not; it is a form of estrogen; something similar to estrogen.

    “They are treated as food in your body as opposed to something that needs to be discharged/cleansed via kidney and liver eliminating the stress on those organs.”
    This claim on their website is nonsense. Anything that goes into your mouth will soon become acquainted with the liver. Everything that goes into your mouth is treated as food, some of which is more toxic than other. This product will be no less toxic than bio-identical estrogen taken orally.

    “You can control the pace of your transition unlike hormones and nothing is wasted as the body/cells use what it needs to perform their tasks.”
    You can no more control the pace of your transition with this product than with any other product; pace of transition is mainly determined by your genetics. Phyto-estrogenic hormone regimes are notoriously lees effective than FDA approved ones, but not necessarily slower. And the last part of that sentence about the body/cells using what they need is more nonsense.

    “No, they are not FDA approved...but they have also been recommended by respected medical people in the field who have nothing to gain by their recommendation.”
    I suspect they have been recommended specifically for use by natal females (eg for menopausal symptons), I doubt there are many genuine medical practitioners out there who would put their head on the block and claim that these products will cause effective feminisation in TS patients, and even less likely claim that these products are actually better than human estrogen.

    I don’t doubt that this product will have some effect. I don’t believe though that it is better, safer, or in any way preferable to bio-identical estrogen.
    xx
    • 2573 posts
    October 31, 2009 8:15 AM GMT
    There is a reason that Lucy and Marsha are moderators of the HORMONE CITY forum. They were carefully chosen for their knowledge and reliability in the interest of discouraging TW members from taking a poor or dangerous path to hormone therapy. They speak their minds strongly. That is their job. It was a relief to me when they accepted the position. I could stop worrying about what was posted here.

    I am also glad you started this post, Traci. It is always good to have a thread that educates. When someone makes a claim, it is always good to ask: "Who benefits from this?" and be cautious about believing what they say. Often Googling a product, person or company name will show up quickly if they are not what they claim. Many people who expose things on the Internet are good at getting their links up near the front in listings of a search. Some may be false, but you will see many negative links if there is a problem. Some companies/products even have their own "AcmeAnvilsSucks.com"-type counter-sites (webmaster: Wiley Coyote)....like PayPal and other well known companies. There you can read counter-arguments.

    Lucy and Marsha are not the "Hormone Police." Think of them more as the Hormone Crossing-Guards. Nice ladies who try to keep girls from getting run over.
    • Moderator
    • 1652 posts
    March 10, 2010 11:05 PM GMT
    If you believe that hypnotism, magic pills, or prayer will give you satisfactory feminisation then, well, god help you.
    Once again, estrogen causes feminisation. It’s a lot cheaper than any alternative and at least as safe. There is no “better”.
    It works for me.
    xx
    • Moderator
    • 1652 posts
    April 20, 2010 11:41 PM BST
    Thank you Marsha for that clarification, it was the first thought that occurred to me when I read the post in question. As a co-moderator of this forum I take a dim view of anyone who joins the site and immediately posts here in support of patented “herbal” products. It’s happened before, I’m sure many of us remember the problems we’ve had in the past from such people. It’s not that I’m judging any one individual, I just have issues with the surreptitious promotion of such products in open forums which are intended to discuss medically tested hormones.
    None of these people ever start by saying, “I sell these products…”
    21 years eh? I think we should redirect her to the last person who tried to promote their product here claiming that theirs had been used for centuries, then they can argue which is best between themselves.
    Bio-identical hormones cannot be patented because they are found in the human body. In comparison to all these magical herbs, they are extremely cheap, but they are completely natural in that they are supposed to be present in the body.
    Congratulations if you have developed a product that improves on nature itself, but you can’t sell it here, sorry. Future promotional attempts may well be deleted.
    Oestrogen feminises the body, you don’t need to look any further. If you’re born with a male body it’s already in your system, you just need more of it because your body doesn’t make enough. Expensive alternatives will NOT work any better.
    Oestrogen has been around a lot longer than 21 years.
  • April 21, 2010 12:33 AM BST
    This is a link to substantiating the claims for herbals negating any side effects, notice the repeated use of disclaimers and who is sponsoring the forum?????????????????

    http://www.myevanesce.com[...]tid=691

    I am presently searching my files for a piece I noted a couple of ears ago, research done at Ontario University, A very comprehensive report negating a lot of the claims, another done by A University in Melbourne Australia and another shorter piece done in The Gene clinic at Cambridge Adenbrooks in the UK, all baisically saying you can't beat the real thing.

    Notice herbal remedies, magic pills advertisments have a disclaimer, why?, as none of them actually list any detrimental effects.

    Basically you pays your money and taker your chances.

    http://transwoman.tripod.[...]nes.htm

    http://www.healthwatcher.[...]ywatch/


    FDA Issues Warning Letters to Marketers of Unapproved 'Alternative Hormone Therapies'
    The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) today announced that the agency has taken action against a number of firms marketing unapproved "Alternative Hormone Therapies" because the products these firms are selling are unapproved new drugs that have not been found safe and effective to treat or prevent certain serious or life-threatening diseases or conditions. FDA issued Warning Letters to 16 dietary supplement and hormone cream marketers who are making unproven claims that tout the benefits of their "alternative hormone therapy" products in treating or preventing serious diseases, including cancer, heart disease, and osteoporosis, and in affecting the structure or function of the body. These alternative therapies are often promoted as "natural" or "safer" treatments that can be used in place of approved hormone treatments. Marketers have 15 days to respond to FDA.
    Items promoted for treatment or prevention of cancer, heart disease, and osteoporosis
    FTC Warns Web Sites Peddling Hormone Replacement Therapy Alternatives to Review Their Claims
    The Federal Trade Commission staff today sent warning letters to 34 Web site operators making claims that products advertised as natural alternatives to hormone replacement therapy will prevent or treat diseases, such as cancer, heart disease, or osteoporosis. The warning letters advise these sellers that their marketing claims may be illegal. FTC staff strongly advised the marketers to review their advertising and promotional materials, and to revise or delete any false, misleading, or unsubstantiated product claims.


    Post the other links when I find them



    Cristine
  • April 21, 2010 9:15 AM BST
    http://www.hemingways.org[...]bal.htm


    HERBAL HORMONES. 

    Many plants contain compounds that directly or indirectly affect hormones or hormone activity in the body. Since phytoestrogens (i.e., "Plant Estrogens") are far weaker than their animal counterparts, they can be used effectively to manage overabundant or deficient amounts of estrogen. The molecular structure of phytoestrogens is so similar to those in animals that they readily bind with estrogen receptors, in some cases even more readily than the actual animal steroids. Becase the plant steroids are so much less "reactive," though, they occupy the receptor while only performing some (or none) of the job. The animal estrogen is swept on in the bloodstream to either bind with some other receptor, a blood protein, or ultimately to be destroyed in the liver or excreted from the body altogehter. In this way, plant hormones can be used to "block" the direct activity of free, unbound estrogen in the body. If there is a deficiency the small amount of stimulation from the plant hormones can cause a mild estrogenic effect and in this way act as an estrogen supplement.

    USE IN TRANSGENDER FEMINZATION

    If you are a Male-to-Female transgendered person who have come to this page in search of information on over-the-counter natural/herbal hormones for the purpose of feminizing your body, you need to be aware that the effectiveness of the few herbals the DO exert estrogenic actions is extremely minimal because phytoestrogens tend to be only about 1/1000th as strong as animal estrogens. These herbal drugs may work well to help balance a biological females peri-menopausal or post-menopausal endocrine system, but they are wholly insufficient for over-riding a biological male's testosterone dominance. The amounts of herb that would have to be consumed would be dangerous if not outright toxic. While some people do report some minor effect from certain herbal formulations (such as gynecomastia or a small amount of fat redistribution) the majority of transgender people who've tried them will tell you that herbals are ineffective and a waste of money if your goal is to fully feminize your body. Only prescription-grade hormones will provide adequate feminization results (some of which are bio-identical to what your body produces - i.e., "natural") .

    Disclaimer: I am not a medical nor naturopathic doctor. This is all based on months of research I did myself trying to find out if herbal supplements might help my own hormone imbalance. I provide it here for informational purposes only.

    PHYTOESTROGENS

    Alfalfa (Medicago sativa) - The hormonal activity of alfalfa was first observed in Veterinary Medicine. Animals observed grazing on alfalfa developed traits similar to animals treated with synthetic estrogens. Alfalfa contains three major plant estrogens: coumestrol, genistein, and formonetin (as well as the lesser diadzein and biochanin A). Coumestrol is the most active with a relative activity of 5% that of a natural estradiol estrogen. Genistein's activity is about 1%, and formonetin is .01% or less. The amount of "active" phytoestrogens varies with the growing season. It is highest during the full blooming and seeding stages. Also, keep in mind that these are the active percentages for EXTRACTED phytoestrogens as compared to an equal amount of true estrogen - the amounts consumed in plant form will vary widely and will likely be in much smaller concentrations. From the Journal of Naturapathic Medicine, Volume 1, Number 1:

    The practical importance of the phytoestrogens lies with their ability to alter the biological response to endogenous estrogen. Estradiol receptors will bind to a diverse group of chemical compounds, including other steroids, isoflavones and phytoestrogens. When phytoestrogens bind to estrogen receptors on cells, they translocate to the nucleus and stimulate cell growth in a manner similar to estradiol. Despite the apparently weak relative binding capacity of the phytoestrogens, they can have significant hormonal effects. This is due to their lower affinity for the serum estrogen binding proteins, this resulting in a net effect of enhancing the concentration of available phytoestrogen at the target tissue sites.

    The relative weakness of their estrogenic action means that these compounds will have an "alterative" or "balancing" effect. Thus, phytoestrogens may be used therapeutically in both hypoestrogenism and hyperestrogenism states. It is precisely this quality that makes them so useful therapeutically, especially in a naturopathic setting.

    In conditions of hypoestrogenism [lack of estrogen] the plant estrogens will bind directly to estrogen receptors and provide a mild estrogenic effect. This is enhanced by the tendency of the phytoestrogens to concentrate in reproductive tissues, in preference to the serum proteins.

    . . . .When we use these plants medicinally as an alternative to synthetic drugs, it is essential to remember that we are utilizing the specific plant components in order to produce pharmacological actions. Thus, we would be well advised to utilize the most concentrated sources available. In the case of Medicago the preferred forms are solid extracts, fluid extracts and concentrated tinctures. Teas and tablets may not deliver enough active ingredient to be effective.

    It should also be noted that alfalfa contains a seperate and distinct "anti-estrogen" compound that is reported to be about 12% as strong as the phytoestrogens, so there is some "attrition" of effectiveness when this compound is also present (the compound is apparently chloroform-soluable, but I don't know if that means it can be eliminated).

    Sage, Soy, Red Cover, Black Cohosh - large amounts of phytoestrogenic compounds.

    Black Cohosh (Cimicifuga racemosa or Cimicifugae racemosae rhizoma), also known as "Snakeroot" can be toxic in large doses. The best info I could find was not to take more than about 2000mg/day of the ground root. If you get nausea, you're taking to much and should cut back your dosage. It is one of only a couple plant steroids known to have a direct hormonal effect within the human body (source).

    Red Clover contains high levels of isoflavone compounds such as Genistein, which have estrogenic properties.

    Sage and Soy also have phytoestrogenic isoflavonoids in them, but not to the extent of Black Cohosh or Red Clover.

    Vitex (Chaste Tree/Berry) - has no phytoestrogenic or other direct hormone effect. Stimulates LH (Leutenizing Hormone) production, which can in turn increase levels of progesterone secreted by the endocrine system. However, a component of Black Cohosh also has a LH suppressing action, so if these two are taken together they can end up working against one another.

    Don Quai - clinical tests performed by Kaiser Permanente showed it has NO estrogenic or phytoestrogenic effects. Another component acts as a muscle relaxant, which explains why it helps ease PMS cramps for women. As a component of HRT, however, it was no more effective than the placebo.

    Licorice - also has lots of phytoestrogenic compounds but side effects and long term toxicity preclude it's value as a Hormone Replacer. In fact, it is one of the very few plants that has a direct hormonal action in the human body (source). It's generally used short-term as a treatment for Asthma or other bronchial problems in that it acts as an expectorant. It also can cause high blood pressure if used for extended periods.

    .

    DIOSGENIN EXPLAINED

    There appears to be some debate over the value of "Diosgenin" as a hormone in plants like Mexican Wild Yam, Fenugreek, Agave, Soy, and Yucca. The herbal supplement industry is walking a very thin line of legality in their labeling practices and has contributed to much of the confusion surrounding this "herbal hormone." The herbal supplement industry also likes to use the terms "disogenin," "hormone precursor," and "phytoestrogen" interchangably.

    Here is the scientific fact: The human body does not have the enzymes necessary to synthesize Diosgenin into Progesterone or any other hormone.

    Diosgenin is not really a hormone anyway. It is what is called a "Saponin." Saponins mimic hormones because they have molecular structures that are similar to natural hormones.

    Natural plant steroids are formed by the polymerization of 5-carbon isoprene subunits into tetracyclic triterpenoid compounds during complex metabolic pathways inside plant cells. All steroids have the same fundamental structure of four (tetracyclic) carbon rings called the steroid backbone or steroid nucleus. The addition of different chemical groups at different places on this backbone leads to the formation of many different steroidal compounds, including the sex hormones progesterone and testosterone, the anti-inflammatory steroid cortisone, and the cardiac steroids digoxin and digitoxin. (source)

    As you can see from the three images below, the "Steroid Backbone" for hormones is the same whether it is a male or female hormone. What is different is what is molecularly bound to that backbone - which determines the molocule's chemical interactivity inside the body:







    Unfortunately, just having the "back bone" molocule isn't sufficient. It HAS to have the other carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen atoms hanging off of it in the right places. Complicating matters is that this useful "backbone" molucule is already "bound" in the plant cell as "diosgenin." It is essentially non-reactive and not bio-available for use by the human body.

    BEFORE it can be used by the human body it must be pre-processed. As mentioned previously, the human body does not have the chemical mechanisms (enzymes) to break the complex diosgenin molocule apart, nor to reassemble the pieces into a useful hormone. This MUST be done outside the human body.

    If you were hoping there was some easy procedure to pre-process diosgenin containing plants and produce your own supply of progesterone (or other hormones), you're outta luck.

    The process was developed in the 1940s by Dr. Russell Marker, which is why it is called "Marker Degredation." Using a multi-step process involving specific enzymes and recombinant agents he was able to extract the diosgenin molucules, break the down with enzymes and other chemicals, and with other enzymes and chemicals get the carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen atoms to bond to the steroid backbone and produce pure, pharmaceutical-grade progesterone. Because it came from plant materials and is molecularly identical to what the human body produces, it is called "Natural Progesterone" even though it is synthesized from plant material in a laboratory. (source)

    In Dr. Marker's early trials the process took over 30 steps, which made synthesis from plant saponins economically unviable. Eventually he wittled it down to about 6 steps, which made it less expensive than other methods of hormone synthesis or harvesting. Although I've found numerous references to the history of this process and Dr. Marker's problems finding someone to fund his research, I have not been able to locate any source online that details WHAT enzymes and chemicals are used, or what constitutes the 6 steps of the synthesis process. I'm not looking for that information for the purpose of making my own - I'm no chemist or biologist and to attempt to make pharmaceuticals yourself is stupid and dangerous - I'm just curious about the process and materials involved, as I'm sure you are too if you're bothering to read this stuff. Cortisol is also extracted from diosgenin, but through a different process involving stigmasterol and bacterial culturing. It is also worthy to note that one researcher found that no company producing pharmaceutical-grade progesterone has used Yams or the "Marker Degradation" method in about 20 years (source). This being due to other methods of production and laboratory synthesis, usually using an inexpensive Soy-oil "starter" and stigmasterol.

    This isn't to say that there is NO effect in using diosgenin containing plant extracts. Anytime you put something into your body, your body is going to attempt to break it down and process it. One also has to remember that if the plant materials have been pre-processed in any manner, it is likely that some of the long-chain molucules have been broken up in the mashing, chopping, or other processes likely to "degrade" molecular bonds. It is possible that a limited (an EXTREMELY LIMITED) amount of diosgenin is accidently broken down to the "Steroid Backbone" or some other form that will mimic the actions of a real hormone or will bond to hormone receptors - which may just have the effect of occupying the "seat" or it may have the desired biochemical effect. But this is a complete "crap shoot" as to how much diosgenin is broken down into something useful and exactly what form it takes. I bring up the possibility only because there have been some studies of women using plant-derived topical ointments in large concentrations who HAVE shown a progesterone-like effect, but nothing comparable to the use of pharmaceutical-grade progesterone.

    Some of the topical creams DO contain low concentrations of pharmaceutical-grade progesterone, however. I recently found out that in the United States these concentrations are limited to less than 3% if the product is to be non-prescription and sold as a "cosmetic" and that the inclusion of any concentration of pharmacuetical-grade progesterone in a cream was banned by Canadian law. The preferred method of delivery for progesterone is as a topical ointment. This allows the hormone to enter the bloodstream and be both circulated and bioavailable to receptors in body tissues. Oral consumption is the least effective, as progesterone is destroyed by acids in the stomach and whatever isn't destroyed is passed to the liver where, if you're lucky, up to 5% will be absorbed into the bloodstream. Sublingual (under the tongue) is much more effective at about 90% absorbtion, but are ruputedly hard to find. Injectibles are considered 100%, but most people don't like the injections. Transdermal delivery (by skin patch or creams) is more than 90% efficient - depending upon the method of delivery and the transfer agent (source).

    To summarize:

    Diosgenin is compound with a steroidal structure similar to natural hormones
    The human body cannot process diosgenin into any other substance
    Diosgenin must be pre-processed into hormones in a laboratory and you can't do it at home in your kitchen.
    Many diosgenin-containing plants have other, non-hormonal, benefits.
    Orally consumed progesterone is mostly destroyed by digestion.
    Progesterone IS available in some products at low, non-prescription (but often ineffective) dosages.
    Progesterone is best introduced to the body Transdermally, Sublingually, or by Injection.


    Cristine
    This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at December 7, 2020 2:05 PM GMT
    • Moderator
    • 1652 posts
    April 21, 2010 1:02 PM BST
    Thank you Marsha, I'd love to:
    "...is there anything to prevent any member opening a new thread and calling it "Herbal Remedies" which would be quite separate from the Hormone thread ?"
    No, Joanne. But the moderator of the forum in which it was posted would probably move it across to here.

    Cristine, your first 2 paragraphs above are the perfect explanation of the difference between herbals and reals.
    xx
    • Moderator
    • 1652 posts
    April 22, 2010 12:58 AM BST
    Bizarre, but I’d expect nothing less from Anne Selene.
    I rather wish you hadn’t posted this Marsha, but since you have I must concur with you that she has no idea how my transition is going. I did once post a pic after my 2 year experimentation with herbals (very expensive!) I achieved nothing more than a tiny increase in subcutaneous fat, and was still a no-cup after herbals, still presenting as male, going to work in a light shirt – no problem. This year I’ve gone through another growth spurt and I’m now a B-cup, thanks to oestrogen, human oestrogen of course. I could not present as male now even if I wanted to. These are not man-boobs, these are boobs, nice ones too.
    To summarise: I got NO breast growth from herbals, and have had great results with proper hormones. My development has been slow (just like my mum’s was), but sure. Breast growth is ongoing and still increasing, not to mention all the other benefits I get from oestrogen. Anne also stated she was using bio-identical oestrogen and progesterone when she was here (Oestrogel and Utrogestan), so her case is in no way clear cut. Indeed, I would expect her to get good results with these, they're the same as I use!
    I hope all this doesn’t tempt her back here, but if it should I will not allow her to expound the benefits of her products in this forum.
    Cristine’s post above is the definitive word on herbals. Everything in that is on the money. It’s just ridiculous to suggest that human oestrogen doesn’t feminise the body, or that eating lots of roots can do a better job.
    Of course if you’d rather believe someone who sells herbals…
    xx
    By the way, I’m really not a strange person.
  • April 22, 2010 1:09 AM BST

    Lucy, hugs,

    It was not my intention to lead anyone into believing my last post was written by me, I posted the link to the actual artical, I did'nt notice the headng and author was missing, Its one of some 20 odd reports and valid clinical studies evaluations I have collected over the years poo pooing herbals. I read it understood a little and along with the other reports etc, gleaned a little knowledge from what in my opinion are reputable sources. I rely on my endo/doctors to make recomendations for my own peculiar conditon as to my mones regime, no way am I as knowlegable as you or Marsha, each to their own, but I can by reading reports like this tell the difference between a bag of monkeys and a bag of nothing.

    Cristine.

    PS your the living epitome of getting it right, WOW xxXxx


    This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at March 10, 2013 4:27 PM GMT
    • Moderator
    • 1652 posts
    April 22, 2010 1:16 AM BST
    I do realise you didn’t write it Cris and know you wouldn’t intend anyone to think so, but thanks for posting it. It’s one of the most accurate pieces on the subject that I’ve ever come across.
    xx
    Oh and thanks, you're too kind, but apropos - "epitome"!
    Just to get it right...
  • April 22, 2010 11:06 AM BST
    I note that from the ads on the Pheonix Site. Some of the products contain Pueraria Mirifica. This was also promoted by Anne Selene if I recall


    TOXICOLOGICAL STUDY OF AQUEOUS AND ETHANOLIC EXTRACTS FROM PUERARIA MIRIFICA AIRY SHAW & SUVATABANDHU ON MALE RATS
    Authors: P. Sanchanta, K. Saenphet, S. Saenphet, S. Aritajat, C. Wongsawad
    Keywords: Pueraria mirifica, toxicity, rats
    Abstract:

    This research was carried out to investigate toxic effects of aqueous and ethanolic extracts from Pueraria mirifica Airy Shaw & Suvatabundhu on male rats. Both extracts at the doses of 400, 600 and 800 mg/kg bw were orally given to male rats for 4 weeks. The kidney and liver functions, histopathological and hematological alterations, including micronucleus formation were evaluated. The effect on rat body weight was also observed. The results showed that both extracts of all doses used had no effects on the kidney and liver functions according to the normal values of blood urea nitrogen (BUN), creatinine (Crea), aspatate aminotransferase (AST) and alanine aminotransferase (ALT). However, histological alteration of both organs were observed in some rats treated with both extracts. Hematologically, total white blood cell count was not different from that of controls and differential cell count was normal, although lymphocytes and neutrophils in some treated rats was slightly different from those of control group. However, rats in all treated groups showed significantly lower packed red cell volume (PCV) than controls (p < 0.01) and their micronuclei in polychromatic erythrocytes (PCE) were significantly higher than those of controls (p < 0.05). These results revealed that both aqueous and ethanolic extracts of P. mirifica affected the red blood cell formation and also acted as a mutagenic agent. Furthermore, all treated rats had significantly lower body weight gain as compared to control (p < 0.01). It could be clearly concluded that the extracts from P. mirifica at the doses used in this study tend to be toxic to rats.

    Hardly seem like a product conjusive to the redistribution of body fats a process ideal for feminisation.

    What I do find amazing all the sites related to the Pheonix Project have Researched this formum and many other independant forums and picked out the glowing miracle claims, whilst none of the logical opinions and advice from people like Lucy and Marsha. The winner on one of their sites is From pecs to 32B in two hours, Do they do tyre pumps as well?


    Cristine
    • Moderator
    • 1652 posts
    April 22, 2010 1:46 PM BST
    Just a brief extract from the link above:
    “In a toxicity study, it was shown that a water extract of pueraria
    mirifica killed mice with surgically removed ovaries, within 2-3 minutes... The study showed that when mice were fed 100 mg per kilogram of body weight, appetites decreased, liver cells became infected and bled...”

    So… not good for mice then. Strongly suggesting that if we take enough of it, it won’t be good for humans either.

    And:
    “This toxicity study shows that receiving pueraria mirifica for a long time can affect creation of blood cells in white rats. Consequently, if people want to take pueraria mirifica as pills, it is not recommended for a long periods of time, as it may affect the production of blood cells.”

    Please girls, if you want to feminise your body, rely on something that is supposed to be in your body. Plant oestrogen does not have the same effects as human oestrogen, and all of these phyto-products are undoubtedly toxic in high doses.
    In short, it will cost you a small fortune to poison your body and not get good feminisation.
    xx
  • April 22, 2010 2:32 PM BST
    .At the end of the day, you can only give sensible informed advice, some people will only hear what they want to hear. for gods sake somone please tell me money grows on trees.

    Crissie

    Me, Lucy, Marsha and many here have done it, think that speaks volumes.
  • April 22, 2010 2:32 PM BST
    Marhsa xXx

    Its not my intention to run anyone off, Herbals obviously have their place, but every possible authority and clinical evaluation is
    Herbals are of very little use or none at all when it comes to male to female transitioning.

    My personal view is that, people who are seriously contemplating or undergoing transition, are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea, availability, cost, but above all anxious for imediate results, no risk, remedies. Thats not counting the I don't want to go all the way ones, just a nice pair of tits will do, male libido intact and no questions asked. To be quite honest, there are a lot of desperate people out there, genuine people who want to go all the way, thinking perhaps if they get a start,,, start changing then they are going to get a quicker referal when they do go to get an entry form for real life at the doctors.

    What I do know your not gonna end up looking like Jordon on prescription mones. let alone herbals, What does bug me, is the preying on the confused, desperate, perhaps clinically rejected or misinformed. Giving false hopes for a buck. exploitation Using forums like this to promote their own agendas pretending all the claims they lead you to are by independant and unbiased girls with big tits.. Now that does piss me off.

    One report I read, they dug up 2 tonnes of this root, to conduct scientific studies on it. Yet nowhere can I find the results of the scientific results substantiating their claims, if I had of just dug up 2 tonnes of root and wasted it on tests, I would realy want to publish any articles substantiating the claims I was making.

    PS anyone wanna buy a few gallons of my magic pee, at a fraction of the cost of petrol for their cars? Less pollution, more mpg, enhanced performance, ozone freindly. goto my site [email protected]. read all the glowing reports from
    sane, inteligent and totally independant people who have driven thousands of miles using my product.

    Crissie

    Taking the piss as usual
  • April 22, 2010 3:16 PM BST
    Dainna C

    Shows how much interest you realy have in this site, apart from your obvious promotional expeditions, No picture of yourself,
    likes dislikes, anything about yourself, no other postings in any other threads, purely a promotional exercise. Unbelievable.

    Cristine.
  • April 24, 2010 2:59 PM BST
    People will ask or state ''Why then is a company promoting herbal based transition still in business if it does'nt work'' basically because the core element of their business is not based soley on people transitioning, Looking at it from a financial point of view and scouring lots of other sites, in the main many that posted have tried the herbal route and were disatisfied with the results and gone the proper route, doctors, shrinks, endo.s etc. Thats not taking into account the ones that did'nt want to approach a doctor.

    I don't know what the newbie percentage is per capita of population, should imagine its in the thousands, but if only ten percent try herbals for a few months before discovering they are useless when it comes to male to female transitioning, thats quite an income monetary wise and an ongoing thing not somthing the promoters of this quackery realy want to lose.

    Cristine

    • 2627 posts
    April 25, 2010 9:02 PM BST
    To get your $ they'll say anything you want to hear.
  • April 25, 2010 9:06 PM BST
    Dainna C

    Whilst noting your comments on saw Palmetto, very comendable. whilst not demeaning your intention to issue a very valid warning about it.



    By Dianna On 2010-04-18 06:26PM

    > is Evanesce ES a good choice for the task?

    Evanesce-ES has pueraria murificia as one of its ingredients.
    Feminol has a LOT more pueraria murificia, as one of its ingredients.

    Evanesce and Evanesce-ES also, besides the estrogenic ingredients,
    contain extremely potent testosterone blockers.

    And if the testosterone blocker in Evanesce-ES are not strong enough,
    We also have AndroEase, which is all testosterone blockers
    and CalmCompanion will be available once again in mid-May.

    So we are trying to cover all the bases, no matter how difficult an individual's body may be to responding.
    --
    "Helping you on your journey toward becoming a whole person"


    That is from your own sponsored forum,.....



    regarding the substantiated adverse reports about pueraria murificia, you have not made any comment about that? We are talking about the extracts from the white root. Wikipedia has endorsed its reference to beneificial claims, as needing substantiating endorsement, none found.

    Cristine Shye

    Wikipedias adendum regarding this entry

    Example: Most people believe in ghosts.[citation needed]

    This tag signals you to do the following:

    Exercise caution when relying upon unsourced claims.
    If you have reason to think that the claim is inaccurate, you may remove the claim altogether. Optionally, paste it into the article's talk page and explain your reasoning.



    • Moderator
    • 1652 posts
    April 27, 2010 1:30 AM BST
    Dainna’s statement: “There are many people for whom Avodart, and finasteride, do not "work", either. But those drugs do "work" for most people, albiet with several negative side effects....”
    is somewhat misleading. In the link that she posted it states:
    “Finasteride is generally well tolerated; adverse reactions usually have been mild and transient.”
    And:
    “All medicines may cause side effects, but many people have no, or minor, side effects. No COMMON side effects have been reported with Finasteride.”
    Side effects with Finasteride are rare, so it’s not fair to say that they work for most people but will have negative side-effects. I take it by the way, without any side-effects. Studies have shown that even tiny doses can help prevent hair loss.
    All medicines are required to carry warnings that they may cause side-effects and must list pretty much ANY side-effect that has ever been reported with their use. Hence the long list of seemingly terrifying things that might happen to you, but actually, probably won’t. This is further compounded with, for example, bio-identical estradiol, where all the possible dangers of all other forms of HRT are included in the list, despite no-one ever having suffered them using the actual product in question. Premarin and ethinylestradiol have been proven to carry some risks, estradiol has not, but they still say that it might do on the packet. Perhaps it’s better to be over-cautious, or perhaps it just provides ammo for the herbalists.
    Herbal products, as far as I’m aware, are not required to state possible, potential or inevitable side-effects on their packaging, or carry any warnings at all. Perhaps they should.

    I would hope that anyone taking medicines would read the enclosed information leaflets. And yes, I for one am aware that Finasteride should not be handled by pregnant women; I suspect most of us are. I won’t be asking any natal females to chop up my tablets.

    Constantly on this forum, members and moderators alike point out the possible side-effects and potential dangers of drugs and especially of their irresponsible, unsupervised use. We do not need scare tactics from someone who sells herbal products suggesting, tacitly or otherwise, that medicines are dangerous and herbals are safe. At least, the ones that they sell are safe…

    We don’t disallow discussion of alternatives to hormones here, but we are, with good reason, wary of people who sell them and come here to say how good they are, and how bad standard medicines are. This thread seems to be heading that way. Future posts may be hidden without further warning.

    For the sake of balance…
    Bio-identical oestrogen, already present in your body, is a very safe "medicine". It is made from the same raw ingredients as some herbal products, but is modified to make the end product identical to human oestrogen, requiring considerably smaller doses and thereby reducing toxicity. Herbals may be hundreds or thousands of times weaker than human oestrogen. To use Dainna’s own analogy, eat enough soy beans and you will die.
    Sadly, you will die with little or no breasts.
  • April 27, 2010 11:58 AM BST
    As far as I am aware toxicity in the human body is not measured on an analogue scale gram per kilo for an induced substance, but on a logrithmic scale. Ratio's depending on the substance induced and the efficiency of the imune system and the organs ability to filter the toxins, and the age of the test subject in this case being a rat....,. if the method of induction reamins the same, ie, orally.

    ie. if a substance introduced to a 1 Kg rat at 1 gm = a toxic reading of say 1 part per million and 2 gms were introduce into a 2kg rat the toxic count might be 3 parts per million in the 2Kg rat.

    As the amount of introduced substance increases the gain curve in toxicity curves up even sharper. so in a 4Kg rat it could be as high as 12 parts per million.

    Its also a recognised fact that as the doses are increased the rise in toxicity far outweighs the efacy of the drugs desired effect.

    Thats why patented medicines are not prescribed on a double the dose basis.

    See where I'm coming from?


    Cristine

    • Moderator
    • 1652 posts
    April 28, 2010 12:39 AM BST
    Firstly, I am not dissing or writing off herbal based products in general. Dainna’s comments about wildly variant types of herbal based products may or may not be true, but are not relevant to the question of whether or not alternatives to human estradiol will feminise the body adequately. To compare beer or fish with drugs or herbal hormones is mere distraction; nothing to do with what we are supposed to be talking about here in the hormone forum. Marsha is right, and this thread is taking yet more bizarre twists at every turn.
    But just to highlight that I do not write off herbs per se
    I grow herbs, parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme, yes really, and so on. I think fresh herbs are good for me. I use lemon balm from my garden to treat my occasional cold sores and shingles outbreaks. I concoct elderberry cordial to drink during the cold-ridden winter months. I make avocado face-packs from actual avocados, I don’t use some green gunk out of a bottle that contains sodium lauryl sulphate etc. I bathe in coconut oil and sea-salt; I don’t put chemicals in my bath. I avoid MSG and artificial sweeteners. I could go on…
    I’m a bit of a hippie. But eating plants or beans, even with the plant or beany material taken out is not going to adequately feminise my body. For this I need the human hormone that has feminised women for as long as women have existed. This is not about beer or fish or spaghetti or even herbs, all of which I love. This is about a simple truth of human physiology:
    Human oestrogen feminises the human body.
    It will work for you. Nothing is safer, nothing is better.
    Using horse oestrogen, or what are known as “synthetic hormones” are undoubtedly risky to our health, but we no longer have to use these. The herbalists are still cashing in on the risks that are associated with those drugs. The newer, bio-identical hormones are NOT proven to carry such risks. To answer your rhetorical question Marsha, it’s not just Thai surgeons or those particular hormones; ALL medicines come under scrutiny when surgery is imminent. The surgeon does not request their suspension because they are not safe drugs. This is another topic entirely, but yours is a far from logical conclusion from such a specific instance.
    Since it is not commercially practical to extract human oestrogen from human bodies, due to the wonders of modern science, because it’s not all doom and gloom you know, we can now recreate oestrogen from natural products in a laboratory. The fact that it is modified in such a way means that it comes under the jurisdiction of health authorities and suchlike. Herbal alternatives to this, possibly thousands of times weaker in effects, but more toxic and requiring massively higher dosages, are treated as food products, and as such they can get away with murder. No warnings necessary, no extensive testing required to get them on the market, and perhaps most dangerously, sellers of herbals post prolifically on the internet claiming, even still in this thread, that their herbals are safe and modern science is going to kill us.
    Human oestrogen, even when produced in a lab, is a NATURAL product.
    Oestrogen feminises the human body, and thanks to this, “humanity has survived for many thousands of years”.

    “And you are also aware that there is a significant debate over the potential dangers involved with transfer of the enzyme in Finasteride which can be passed into a natal female, via semen?”
    Yes I’ve heard this suggestion, but it’s never going to be a problem with me, seriously.
    Finasteride is not a hormone, and I’m not here to defend it’s safety or efficacy, but I do use it, with no problems.
    I never heard that about Tilapia though. I’ve eaten it many times, my penis hasn’t grown back yet…

    Now please, let’s not detract from what most of here would like to discuss. I mean, spaghetti, really..?
    xx
  • April 28, 2010 8:56 AM BST
    Marhsa said

    Thank you so much Cris for bringing up that study so the safety of this substance could be exposed. We will have to add Cris to the list of those here running herbal lovers off, lol.


    I said

    Its not my intention to run anyone off, Herbals obviously have their place, but every possible authority and clinical evaluation is
    Herbals are of very little use or none at all when it comes to male to female transitioning.

    It is an open forum, Marsha you entered the discussion as is your right with lots of valid reasons observations now you are complaining that the thread has taken a poor turn, you allowed yourself to be sidetracked.

    Perhaps I’m getting paranoid, or just a blonde moment Thinking perhaps some of my posts have caused this thread to meander and sink to a poor state….ie, my clarification of how toxicity is measured on a logarithmic scale lol. But you do tend to draw people in getting people interested, which is a good thing.

    By analogy, I sell Lexus, Mercedes, Ferrari, and BMW. I choose to not sell Kia.
    An extract to something Traci posted reputedly something Dainna had written to her.

    At least Dainna is entering into a dialogue, as opposed to the antagonistic and sometimes purerile utterings of the other person. ( name withheld as its rather a sensitive subject here in GS) even if its full of distractions, discussing other product issues. Perhaps Dainnas products are ‘’Lexus. Mercedes, Ferrari and BMW, in the herbal world but compared to natural oestrogenic patented medicines they are all Kia.

    I would not go the herbal route, not so much as to what I know, more what I don’t know and cannot find out from independent recognised clinical testing bodies.

    Dainnas competitor is quoting ISO numbers for her testing and references to WHO approval on her web site. I can find no registration on the SSO list for her particular product, registration or approval or testing by independent authorities in fact the ISO number she refers to seems to be for a waterproofing conditioner for concrete. Nice website tho, eye catching and believable hype. (competitors name withheld as its rather a sensitive subject here in GS)

    But I refer back to Wendy Larsens post in this thread, Lucy and Marsha were elected to this forum because of their research and vast knowledge..






  • April 28, 2010 5:38 PM BST


    Nit picking, I only realy see this thread going from a will it, won't it to a perhaps scenario, A lot of claims without any real documentary based evidence for or against, just opinions, I have tried to present factual and indesputable evidence to support my opinions and for that reason I won't be investing, i'm out.

    Someone quotes a doctor wrote, you either prove the doctor did not write it, or you find substantiated evidence that what the doctor wrote was rubbish. someone quotes an ISO reference to substantiate a test, you prove that the ISO reference is either rubbish or the official records of the test bears no resemblence to the report displayed. Bit like printing your own road tax and not needing an MOT then, or getting a certified true copy of the MOT failure certificate..

    I'll go and devote time on the procrastination thread get some practice . Leave all the experts to procrastinate here.


    Cristine

    PS. I started one of the TS versus TV/CD thread, because I was genuinely upset and perturbed about some of the personal, negative comments I had witnessed in the forums, chat room and real life. why that had to be raked up again as an example of stuff thats going on here bears no relevance and I think its rather an inane comment to make..
  • April 28, 2010 8:09 PM BST
    My last word, Marsha it was as far as I was concerned, about Herbals for transitioning not working and substantiating why they don't work , and the more negative aspects of going that route. not pros and cons for choice, I'm with Lucy on this one.

    Cristine.
  • May 3, 2010 8:08 PM BST
    Karri

    The hemmingway link on my posting and Lucys and Marshas postings they are very knowledgable on real mones. and i dont think their opinions are just based on bias, they have bot studied and have a vast knowledge of what good and whats bad. read the whole thread.

    cristine
    • 376 posts
    December 5, 2012 8:35 PM GMT
    Anyone wasting their time and money on eating bits of tree , bush and leaves and roots and other shite are deluding themselves.

    Cristine has taken the time to research this subject deeper than anyone else . Lucy has put lot of effort into it aswell.

    You will not alter your body at-all taking that rubbish. one herbal pill equals half a litre of Soya milk! Drink the Soya milk it is good for you. One large bush equals one tiny prescription 2mg Oestradiol valerate pill! I can't tell you to take the pill I am not your doctor but I think your doctor would say don't eat a bush every day and don't eat the roots for dessert.
    If anyone thinks their breasts are growing through taking herbal Phytoestrogens I hate to use these words but you are growing "man boobs" Man boobs are induced by eating fat and lack of exersize not herbal pills . Maybe the pack says "Take one pill after a triple cheese burger and double fries" I don't know but it should because fat equals man boobs.

    Soya milk contains Phytoestrogens! It will also lower your cholesterol but it won't make your boobs grow just as the herbal pills won't either.

    Don't take notice of me I put in simple terms "but" do take notice of the ones who have taken the time and trouble and researched it for you.

    Julia.