Looking to see if anyone has had any experience with this organization regarding transitioning and and all....everything I've heard is positive, effective, but still relatively quiet in the community...

Check out the link and please read deep into each section....awesome resource in understanding how it all works with cells, hormones, receptors, etc....

http://www.myevanesce.com/

I also urge y'all not to rush to judgement based on previous over the counter herbal experience...(check back with me in 30-45 days if you want to know how it is working)

Traci

Sorry...here is the active link...

http://www.myevanesce.com

Traci

I have seen the ads for this before, I don't believe everything I read though. However if you are going to give it a go I would be interested to hear your results.

Jeri

I won't hide the fact that I am strongly against herbals because of the lack of documentation both on evidence they do what they say and what are safe effective dosages. I also question why someone who believes strongly enough that they need to go on HRT, would choose such unproven chemicals to put in their bodies. If you can find a doctor who treats transsexuals and recommends to his/her patients that they take herbals, then I might change my opinion. Let me qualify that with a doctor that doesn't make money selling herbals.

"The Evanesce formulation performs these two crucial tasks:
Evanesce has the strongest, safest, testosterone blockers you can legally get without a prescription,
and
Evanesce has significant estrogen resources, to enable the feminizing processes. "

I contend if you care enough about yourself to want to feminize, then get a prescription. And what does "significant estrogen resources" mean?

Besides the "what is this stuff?" look at the cost. The hawkers of Evanesce recommend 6 tablets daily at a cost of $33 plus shipping for 30 days worth. I contend if you feel strong enough you need to be on HRT then you should be able to find a doctor to prescribe you real hormones. Estradiol and spironolactone can be had for under $20 for a months supply at Walmart or most other pharmacies in the U.S., and that is with no insurance.

Hugs,
Marsha

All good points, but what is very significant here that hasn't been brought up is:

Hormones (HRT) are derived from the same herbs as these products. Estrogen is estrogen....

They are treated as food in your body as opposed to something that needs to be discharged/cleansed via kidney and liver eliminating the stress on those organs.

You can control the pace of your transition unlike hormones and nothing is wasted as the body/cells use what it needs to perform their tasks.

No, they are not FDA approved...but they have also been recommended by respected medical people in the field who have nothing to gain by their recommendation.

I have or can obtain legal prescriptions for hormones, but after 7 months of due diligence in TW and other sources, for me, the risk at my age of stressing out kidneys and liver is not one worth taking. The cost is insignificant on a monthly basis (to me) and when weighed versus risks, just feel it's a safer alternative to hormones. My goal is NOT to grow bigger boobs but to drive out testosterone and allow genetics to take over with the physical changes whatever they may be. If my breasts grow, cool! I, like many here, have been living in the wrong body and have been stifled by the effects of male hormones...I welcome the changes....

Any and all comments will be appreciated...

Thnx!

Traci

Look, I'm not trying to create a flaming war of words in here with this post...and I do appreciate your comments, especially as you and Marsha and others have fully transitioned and are experienced in the process ,etc...
First, don't question my intent on going fulltime and transitioning, although I don't think that was actually stated...

Second...that said, Lucy, I believe you said that these items will probably work to some degree...cool...they most definitely will based on what I've learned...maybe NOT as powerful as prescribed estrogen, but I am OK with that too...

Third...I have approached principals of company as well as Md's about validity of your counter points to my original posts to give them the opportunity to share or disclose their position. They will state it better than I possibly could....if they fail to respond, then that will be a red flag to me....

I have not begun taking anything and will not until the dust is settled and I am satisfied with information provided, not only from the girls in here (and I truly appreciate it, even the criticisms) but from outside medical resources as well as the Phoenix Project itself.

Lucy, we don't always see eye to eye, nor particularly get along, but I'll attribute that to you and I being very, very similar in temperment and personality...like two sisters...but I am not so vain as to not recognize your valuable input to this site and the help and support you've given to many. Same with you Marsha...so rather than immaturely lash back at you, I am extended my hand in hopes that this conversation will continue and that it WILL prove to be a valuable resource for others as they too take that final step to womanhood...if indeed this organization proves to be a scam like so many others, then we've done a real good thing in alerting and warning girls...

Peace

Traci

I tried the products for 18 months (6 six years ago) and there was little feminization. The feminol did lower the T however and I continued to use it with the patches until being told the two products do not mix..

Thnx Joanne...that is exactly the feedback I am looking for...

Traci

Traci, first off, hugs. I think Lucy and I often agree on the hormone issue except that I firmly believe a doctor needs to be involved whenever possible. That is my biggest concern with those taking herbals, and that they are doing so to avoid the doctors. Like Lucy I also believe that the herbals offer some feminizing ability, but I question the amount required to make significant changes. I know last time I went through the website forums for evanesce I read numerous posts describing problems. All I can say is make yourself aware of the potential issues related to these products so you can identify a problem quickly should it arise.
Hugs,
Marsha

I cannot speak about the effects of estrogens on the body, as I have not seriously tried them. I did play with some of the herbals several years ago but it was like eating grass and just as effective – plus I could only stomach them for a few months.

However, I can speak of the effects of testosterone blockers. Two years ago, I had a medical condition (low potassium) that required me to take spironolactone for a period for about 3 months. In that time, I noticed a definite tenderness in my breasts, a little puffiness, and a knot that formed under my breasts (all of which I thought was pretty neat). I was not taking estrogens of any sort, so all the changes were just from blocking the big T, and the changes happened quickly.

My condition was corrected by surgery and I had to stop taking the spironolactone and let me tell you it was a let down. Like an idiot I started taking what was left of my prescription in an attempt to get the changes to start up again (without telling my doctor) – but it made my potassium levels spike to ridiculous levels which my doctor caught right away. Anyway I stopped taking them, but they were powerful.

Jeri

OK...received a reply to a request to respond to some of the comments made...I'm only the messenger here...believe whatever you want...but it is interesting regardless...

From the principal of the Phoenix Project:

"quiet in the community"
I personally have been very active in the TG/TS communities, and in the GLBT communities constantly for almost 30 years. I have personally counseled many thousands of TG/TS people through that period, and I worked with many other community leaders to establish the groundings for the various civil rights laws, and corporate laws which increasingly protect TG/TS people today.

Money for these efforts comes from sales -- I personally profit very little from the Evanesce sales.
(I do not own a car made in this century, for example)

This past week, for example, I have been traveling, teaching and counseling
TG/TS people at a conference in Massachusetts.

I do not run a huge slick marketing campaign for our products -- I have chosen to focus on providing the very best products, and giving the best service to people who really care about their health and their successful, minimal loss, transition journey.

comments:
>> I also question why someone who believes strongly enough that they need to go on HRT, would choose such unproven chemicals to put in their bodies. If you can find a doctor who treats transsexuals and recommends to his/her patients that they take herbals, then I might change my opinion. Let me qualify that with a doctor that doesn't make money selling herbals.

And my response would be to question why people would choose to use dangerous chemicals and drugs,
most of which these days come from overseas pharmacies with no doctor oversight or checkups....

For example, the community has spent more than a decade convincing each other, and doctors,
that Spironolactone is a testosterone blocker.
It is not, and it was never intended to be, that.

Spironolactone is a potassium-sparing diuretic; i.e., a drug created to strip water from the human body and to leave potassium behind.

No one -- NO ONE -- is telling the people in this community that when taking Spironolactone, it is necessary to drink 3-4 liters of water daily to make up for the drug striping water from the body.
The result is that MANY of our girls suffer from dehydration symptoms -- muscle cramps, flaking skin, brittle nails, headaches, etc etc, with no knowledge of why...

Spironolactone has what the medical community considers a negative side effect in 10% of the males who use it, of reducing testosterone.

Please go to http://www.drugs.com/spironolactone
Read past the several Google Ads sections, to the bottom of that web page.
Don't just take my word for what Spironolactone does, see what the company which makes it, says.

And then re-look at what the people in this community are telling each other, every day.
How many of our sisters have died from dehydration, or done serious body damage to themselves,
using a drug no one knows they are using?
One of the other TG web sites I read, had a post about a person taking potassium supplements, for some health condition, and then taking Spironolactone on the sly, for her own purposes.
Potassium overload is usually fatal.

Where are the warnings on the drug hormone web sites?
they are not anywhere.

Comments about herbals being dangerous are just ignorant. (uneducated)
Yes -- some herbs are dangerous. But those are not ever used for feminization.


Most people who state that "herbs don't work", have done less than three months of over the counter herbs,
and generally have used Estroven, (which does not have enough estrogen to feminize), and Saw Palmetto,
which in a male body is a precursor for additional testosterone;
and those people believe that Dong Quai and Black Cohosh somehow *are* estrogen.
All lies, and yes -- these kinds of "using herbs to feminize" do not, will not, cannot, work.

"Over the counter herbs" cannot, except in rare cases, feminize a male body.

Evanesce and Feminol, etc., are FAR removed from being "OTC herbs"
Our products are based on bio-molecular usage of the active ingredients of various herbs, in ratios known to make each ingredient more powerful than any of them could be on their own....
and our products include ingredients known for centuries to block testosterone formation.
These ingredients are used as Standardized and concentrated extracts;
a person would need to consume hands-full, and bottles-full of OTC herbs daily to get the same overall potency that a few of our capsules provide.

And because there are no drugs in our formulations, there are no concerns about drug interactions, with only a very few exceptions for major drugs.

Our formulations are near drug potency, created in the way many drugs are created.

A significant percentage of born women fear the health safety of the various drug hormones.
Strange that the TG/TS community, in its rush to achieve the "C" cup, do not seem to care,
about personal health and safety.

I hope that the people pushing a drug hormone solution for feminization are also telling their readers to get frequent doctor checkups of kidney and liver function. Drug hormones can destroy those organs.
I hope, but I know that they are not telling....
Sad.

By the way -- many of our ingredients are difficult to manufacture;
working with molecular extracts of herbs is difficult.

I choose to make the best possible products,
backed by research and knowledge of some of THE greatest herbal experts on the planet,
and yes that means comparatively expensive,
products which work in total safety, rather that just shove crushed herbs at people.
By analogy, I sell Lexus, Mercedes, Ferrari, and BMW. I choose to not sell Kia.

I hope that this helps you to understand!"

So there you have it... Traci xxxx

Traci, that is a mouthful to respond to but I will try to in a brief way. First off I have never called the Phoenix Project quackery and they may have the best of intentions for what they do. However, if they believe their product is as good as they claim and they want to be the Lexus of herbal treatments, then at a minimum they could get USP certification.

As for spironolactone, I used that only as an example because most TS gals are familiar of it and what it is used for. I do not use spiro myself. What you fail to realize is pharmaceutical drugs taken for feminization are taken for the side effects of the drug. NO PRODUCT ON THE PLANET WAS DESIGNED TO CHANGE TS MALES INTO FEMALES.

Last is this nonsense

Our formulations are near drug potency, created in the way many drugs are created.

followed by

And because there are no drugs in our formulations, there are no concerns about drug interactions, with only a very few exceptions for major drugs.

They are drugs, they are designed to modify body chemistry. And to say they don't have side effects or drug interactions is ridiculous when they don't even have the products tested to standards and have no way of knowing all the possibilities. Right there in the forums are stories of gals having problems.

And one more thing, I think it was obvious I along with others clearly stated medical supervision and tests should be done..

Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha...it's all good...glad to see your feedback...at worst, we educate others (and myself) about all of the options out there and lure to a "quick fix"...please don't take my posts as gospel or even think there is a hint of anger or otherwise. I truly value my relationship with you and many other girls in here, especially for remaining active in the site when it would be so easy to say "I'm there, done it, move on"...so if you could see me right now, aside from what I'm wearing, you'd notice a tiny tear emerging from my duct as I am moved by your continued support, concern, and friendship! (smile)
Thnx for taking the time to review and comment in here...you have no idea how it impacts girls who need that kind of connection.
Fondly,
Traci xxx

Hugs Traci, it has been so tough debating this knowing you were on the otherside. I honestly understand that not everyone has access to knowledgeable doctors for various reasons and therefore look for alternatives whether overseas pharmacies or non prescription herbals. Others have found for medical reasons that their bodies will not tolerate prescription HRT meds. My deepest concern is for the health and success of all gals. Maybe the Phoenix Project has its pluses and with time will be able to prove their products to the medical and transgender communities. If anything, I hope this debate caused those following it to want to know more and for them to dig deeper to understand as much as they possibly can about feminization products. Both the good and bad need to be understood. You offered up some very valid points which we can all learn from. No matter how you choose to proceed, I wish you the very best always.
Hugs,
Marsha

Hi Tracy,
Lots of opinions here,...few with any direct experience.

Here's what I know:

By week 4 (taking Evanesce and Feminol daily, plus Red Clover) I had significant enlargement of the mammary fat pad,...swelled to a measurement of 3" difference between bust and under bust or band. This first phase of mammogenesis became visably noticable at week 3. I very noticably found my arm or hand brushing against my bust/nipple every time I raised it.

By week 3 my areola diameter had increased 1/4", consistant with Tanner stage 2:
"There is an elevation of the breast and nipple as a small mound and the areola diameter may begin to enlarge. Milk ducts inside the breast begin to grow. "

My breast measurement called the hemi-circumference (that is, a measurement along the contour of the breast, across your nipple, top to bottom, from where your breast projects away from your chest,...measured in a sitting position) was 13 cm after 4 weeks on E-ES/F. I don't have a pre-feminizing measurement to compare with. I began with 463T and 194E. I'll do a followup at 3 months

It's an incredible feeling spooning my spouse,...my mammary pads against her back. I can't seem to keep hands off them during the day,...they are the most beautiful things I've ever touched.

Some softening of the skin, nipples erotically sensitive, a calmer disposition, less morning or during the day erections,...no shrinkage yet. I observed a significant difference with the penis within the first 24 hours on Phoenix Project herbs,...including a very pleasant, tingly sensation in the glan.

No breast buds yet, however I expect them in less than the average time of pharmacuetical feminization. I say this because of the fortunate genetically predisposition of copious amounts of fat cells in my family,..mother and sisters are DD's

So, for me, feminizing herbs have better results than what I read about the allopathic path.

Janelle

I would like to point out I modified Janelle's posting by taking out the dosage information she had included. Just as with prescription hormones, TW is not in the business of prescribing or even recommending which hormones or herbals should be taken. That information should be left up to qualified medical personnel.

However, experiences using various products is most welcome. Everyone needs to understand that as with any medication, results may vary and many of the changes occur over a rather lengthy period of time. Therefore a few weeks may not be indicative of long term results.

Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha Ann, your modification notice of my post was presented as a true Allopath. Perhaps I can say I take the maximum suggested doses. Interestingly, I also had three starts of my herbal feminization. After the first 4 1/2 days I stopped for 5 days, and then after the second start (3 1/2 days) I stopped for 4 days,...been continuous ever since.

The two short beginning breaks were dramatic,...urges for erections were markedly increased, and my irritability went way up. I have no idea why Evanesce ES T blockers work, but for me they do, and quickly.

I understand the allopaths view of results, and a zillion years of perfect duplication needed before something can be printed in their text books. However, my education background is in the Arts, so my veiwpoint is a little different,...such as I wonder if my Italian physiology is perhaps more in resonance with the Evanesce ES T blockers,...or perhaps because in body, mind, and spirit I see myself as female.

I see my legs, arms, hands, feet, my male body as female. In the past several weeks that "seeing" has only gotten more embedded in my psyche,...somehow my brain has rewired to see myself as fully female. Even though I have more body hair then most, I see myself as female.

Most of my life I fantasied about having different physical female attributes,...but this is different. This isn't autogynephilia that goes away for awhile after an orgasm. I see myself as a girl 24/7. Thus I feel there is a psychological/emotional aspect of feminization.

As an apparent Christian, Marsha Ann must somewhat agree that attitude (or prayer) has help many dis-eases to ease. I heard of an experience called Hypno-feminization,...and although I haven't tried it, suggest that anyone feminizing should do all they can to let the full Girl-Within out, to allow the feminization to flow without male (patrifocal) mental blocks.

Janelle

To start with I have nothing to do with the medical industry however I do work with chemicals so I am very familiar with the testing. I don't have any issues with what you are saying but we have to be cautious that we don't get into all pharmaceuticals are unhealthy and all herbals are good for you.

Documentation is indispensable for any chemical. Whether or not you want to believe herbals are chemicals, it is the natural chemicals that make up the herb and cause the effect you are after. Nature does not only produce safe chemicals, take arsenic for one example. Even oxygen can be dangerous in the its purest form.

I hope you stay at TW for sometime to come and keep us updated on your progress. But along with that I hope you take care of your health and have it monitored as need be so no problems arise from this or anything else.

Hugs,
Marsha

Janelle, my last reply didn't address that last part you brought up about my Christian beliefs and that "attitude (or prayer) has help many dis-eases to ease." Actually no I don't subscribe to that. I believe God gave us science and medicine to take care of our needs. That is my argument to the fundamental churches such as Savannah Christian Church that I battled with last year. God gave us science and medicine, therefore you cannot ignore the things we learn through science to cure diseases or show this as a biological condition. Bottom line is Jesus invited all to his table.

I have no experience with the hypnotism stuff in relationship to bringing out your girl side. The first time I tried to quit smoking I did use hypnosis and I quit for a few years before the stress of transition led me back. It is not good to smoke and be on hrt and I can only assume the same would or should apply to herbals as well. I again stopped smoking and remain a nonsmoker to this day.

Hugs,
Marsha

Hi Marsha Ann, my mention of your Christianity ("There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28" ) was in the context of having a healthy personal attitide towards feminization.

Since January 3rd my spouse speaks with me as a female,...and our communication level has grew to levels I've never known. I went from wanting to be a girl, to being a girl,...and wondered if that psychology has helped my feminization. I don't smoke, and only drink (margarittas) occassionally,...however, with two beautiful growing teats (and visible clevage) I feel as being empowered to embrace all sorts of challenges.

As for herbs, I'm so glad they are working for me. I didn't want to get into a Natural vs Pharmaceutical debate. I've never taken hormones, but have heard and read things about them that don't resonate with me. It was only in January that I heard of Feminizing herbs (while looking breast forms),...and after a month of researching I felt like trying them.

I joined this forum primarilly for information about the medical aspects of my decission. Well, to be honest, it really wasn't a decission as in I could or not,...I am a female, who has lived as a male for too long,...who has never been fully happy for too long. I just can't pretend to be only a guy any more,...it's a lie.

Any way, I'm certain I'll stay on the Phoenix Project products for awhile. Perhaps my feminization and T levels will reach a point where small amounts of actual hormones will be a good stategy for me. I have read that these herbs with atrophy the testes about 30%, thus reducing the T machines production. A future orchidectomy is surely on the table,...probably in Panama. Until then, allopathy is definitely not my cup of tea.

Janelle

Marsha Ann writes:
" Maybe the Phoenix Project has its pluses and with time will be able to prove their products to the medical and transgender communities."

The Phoenix Project is now in its 21st year (twenty-first year) of making their products available to transgender people around the world.
Since late 1989....

I would have to believe that if their products did not work, or were somehow dangerous,
the company would have been out of business a VERY long time ago.

There are doctors who buy for, and who recommend the products to their transgender clients,
and there are some doctors who even use the products themselves.

Ttransgender/transsexual people who would actually read through the various Message Boards on the Phoenix Project web site,
will clearly and easily see that the site fully promotes whole body health and life success, full social and family transition and personal health ideals.
not just breast growth.

I'm not sure that was exactly what I was implying Dainna. Being in business for 21 years has nothing to do with the effectiveness of a product. We see it time and time again here that gals only interested in growing breasts will purchase ANYTHING that promises to achieve that. That does not change it from being snake oil. If that product was so good, then why in 21 years have they not been able to publish any documentation of factual studies. Testimony is B.S. because I can go to that site never using the stuff and write whatever I please. And if it was so good, why then is it not widely recommended by physicians. Don't give me because they don't know about it because as you say they have had 21 years to prove their case. And something so specialized as treating transsexuals has little monetary value for doctors to prescribe a particular medication as to receive kickbacks.

SHOW ME THE DOCUMENTATION!

Hugs,
Marsha

I would like to point out that Dainna is the person or screen name behind Evanesce, the Phoenix Project herbal product being discussed here. You will find that the sight shows Dianna, but she uses [email protected] for her email. This is public information found by searching the name Dainna on Google.

Dianna Cicotello who uses "Dainna" for her email addresses is a positive activist for the transgender community. In noway am I insinuating she is anything other than a good person. For that matter, the products discussed here may have some value. The problem lies in there is no published test data to prove the claims of this product. And more important than if the product works is what are the long term effects and side effects. Too much of anything can be bad for you, without a documented guide to proper dosage, there is an untold risk that may exist.

Hugs,
Marsha

In view of our Mission Statement is there anything to prevent any member opening a new thread and calling it "Herbal Remedies" which would be quite separate from the Hormone thread ? I am on HRT. but sometimes log on to the Phoenix site

Joanne, to answer your question in regards to starting a herbal remedies thread, it needs to meet the same criteria as any hormone post would require.

1. We are not doctors, therefore no recommendations as to dosage and medication can be made.
2. Health safety is the biggest concern and there needs to be existing documentation to support a products claim. That is where the gray area is on herbals. Maybe word of mouth says a herbal product is effective, however if someone has a health problem there is rarely if ever any information available to assist medical personnel in diagnosing the problem, let alone, knowing what is in the product and how it may interact with other medication.
3. Discussions of the effects and side-effects of particular medications is really what the hormone forum is for. Feel free to discuss your results or lack of results. Along the same lines, if you are having health problems related to taking any medication please share that with the readers.

Lucy may also want to comment on your question.

Hormones, prescription or herbal, are not candy. And any discussion of them will be monitored closely.

Hugs,
Marsha

Probably not surprising to others here, Anne Selene has contacted me about this thread and feels that Lucy and I are too critical on herbal products. She has provided me with what she calls documentation on her product which is something she herself put together rather than an independent testing firm. I think the easiest way to explain her comments and my reply would be to post the message here.

Hi Marsha,

I must say you and Lucy are some really strange persons when it comes to herbals. First of all don't forget that Lucy started off with herbals and you can see her breast pictures of how her breast developments were while on herbals and you can see even today she haven't reached any satisfied breast development even she's on "real" hormones. Same is for you.

For myself I found out that MiroHealth with Pueraria Mirifica together with breast cream gives far better feminisation (at our age) than whatever "real" hormones would. Beside this, herbals gives far more other benefits to the body than just oestrogen would give.

So jumping up and down claiming the herbals does not work and all the other B.S. you and Lucy presenting on TW is really stupid and only shows how little you both are educated in this matter.

You was asking on documentation on TW so here you are... even though I guess you've seen it before, but read it and educate yourself and post more "neutral" information on TW for your own sake because even though people thinks you're a fool, they don't tell you but they tell me to ready what you and Lucy said.

Don't forget several of TW members are also regular MiroHealth customers but they don't post about it thanks to you and Lucy, why? Because they see your posts as mobbing people that use herbals.

http://www.anne-selene.com/downloads/MiroHealthResearch.pdf

PS! I know you would not do it but you should for your own sake post this PDF on TW as many of the research made was also made in the UK by well known people. (See the reference list)

Best regards

Anne Selene

My reply
I've read through "your" documentation and I am not impressed at all. There is nothing there about your specific product, but instead, studies on the active ingredients. Next is it clearly states that it is more like E1 not E2. Estrone, E1, is rather useless for transition. The only comparison to E2 states that it is .25% as active as E2. Basically your product is 400 times weaker than estradiol 17b. Your documentation presents no studies on the use of the product at dosages equivalent to taking E2, therefore no facts relating to safety including potential side-effects are given. Your documentation basically describes a product designed to supplement the estradiol level of natal females.

As for my breast development, you have no clue about my development. I am very pleased with my development and see no reason for augmentation. So criticizing me for lack of development is ludicrous and shows you will say anything to make your point.

I have clearly stated many times that herbals may have their place. The only problem is they don't have clear documentation as to the safe use at levels required for transition. The documentation you have provided here does not meet that criteria either.

Hugs,
Marsha

Wow girls!!
This topic certainly triggers a few emotions.

In the Red Corner, we have the Undefeated Champion from the Animal Kingdom wearing red "Mammalian Estrogens"
And in the Green Corner, we have the Challenger from the Plant Kingdom wearing green "Phytoestrol Building Blocks"

Personally, I am rooting for the fella in the Red Corner ... simply because I have seen him in action

Three things come to mind in this fight,
1) No matter who wins the fight, there always has to be a Doctor close by !
2) Remember, each of these Guys has a "powerful left hook"
3) Don't discount the Second Challenger...in the invisible Corner, his name is "Placebo Effect"

All kidding aside ... see a Doctor, see a Psychologist, and ...see you in the "Winners Circle"

Here is the 2003-2004 notification from the United States FDA questioning the safety of Pueraria mirifca. I'm sure to those selling this stuff these people don't know what they are talking about.

http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/[...]154.pdf

Next!


Hugs,
Marsha

And here are the results of the study Cris used as a reference, once again cited by the U.S. FDA.
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/[...]162.pdf
The first page is blank so make sure you scroll down, but this study tells you all and more than what you want to know about Pueraria mirifica.

Thank you so much Cris for bringing up that study so the safety of this substance could be exposed. We will have to add Cris to the list of those here running herbal lovers off, lol.

Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha Ann writes:
"The problem lies in there is no published test data to prove the claims of this product.
And more important than if the product works is what are the long term effects and side effects."

That is correct -- there are no test data to prove claims.

No herbal, or herbal based product intended for ANY use, is allowed, by FDA laws, to EVER make any kind of claim, or guarantee of performance.

EVERY product which is not a patented drug, carries a Disclaimer statement in every advertising or marketing piece,
including bottle labels,
stating that it cannot - is not intended to -- diagnose, treat, cure or prevent a "disease".

The FDA does not care to debate whether being transgender is a "disease".
They want all non-prescription supplements, vitamins, etc, to be barred from sale.

In other words, anyone marketing any health-related product, vitamin, etc.,
must also say that their product "probably does not work", in some kind of wishy-washy language;
which generally looks like this:
NOTE: - FDA disclaimer - The statements on this page have not been evaluated by the Food & Drug Administration (FDA).
These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent a disease; but rather are dietary supplements intended for nutritional support.

So to your question -- neither I, nor anyone else talking about a non-drug supplement of ANY kind, feminization or not,
neither I nor anyone else can even make a specific claim, much less publish "test data".
It is illegal under Federal Law to do so.

Unless I, or anyone else talking about a non-drug supplement of ANY kind for any purpose, is willing to spend many millions of dollars and to spend 5-7 years trying to satisfy the requirements of the product being an drug.
Which then only can be sold with a doctor's prescription, or via black market web sites such as inhousepharmacy.com

Marsha Ann also wrote:
"And more important than if the product works is what are the long term effects and side effects. Too much of anything can be bad for you, without a documented guide to proper dosage, there is an untold risk that may exist."

Yes -- exactly correct.

There are a few people who will become sick and die from eating common peanuts,
or even from eating things which common peanuts may have touched.
Should we take peanuts off of the market entirely?

Drinking too much water can kill a human being.
So can drinking too little water.
I am not trying to be argumentative here, but rather only to make a point:
Where is the documentation guide for water?

Are people in our community being told that Spironolactone is a potassium sparing diuretic?
That when using Spironolactone, it is necessary to increase daily water consumption to 3 liters daily, or more?
That when using black market Spironolactone, a person can overload their body on potassium, which is fatal?

Marsha Ann is exactly correct in her assessment of safety concerns about things we choose to put into our bodies.

Marsha Ann writes:
"I'm sure to those selling this stuff these people don't know what they are talking about. "

Actually, some of us do know what we are talking about...

There are dozens of reports, studies, concerning the safety of Pueraria Murificia, which are available on the internet.
One four year old study, reported through the FDA, does not negate the dozens of studies done, and the results published, since then.

The FDA study also does not report that there are over a dozen different kinds/types of pueraria murifica....

On the other hand, the FDA has put considerable time and effort, over the past five years,
into trying to prove and to teach that drug based HRT is dangerous,
and that no one should be involved in HRT programs of any kind for any reason.

This, based on the Women's Health Initiative study of 16,000 women, which was stopped early (before the defined stop date)
because of an unexpected increase in breast cancer in the participating group of women.
< http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/whi/>

Since then, there have been additional study reports published about every six months,
each implicating the dangers of taking drug hormones, i.e, HRT.

Since then, significant numbers of born-women, have chosen to stop using drug hormones for their HRT needs,
and to use herbal hormones, or to use herbal-based hormone formulations, instead.

Dainna, I appreciate and respect your views on herbal products. You have been great about not making your product out to be as safe as water as many who discuss herbals attempt to do. So you understand where I am coming from, I am not a fan of any herbal products primarily because of the confusion related to what to use a herbal for and what is the proper dosage for safe use. You may very well be right that the government prevents this information from being made available, nonetheless it is not and therefore safe use becomes an issue.

Reading through my posts in this forum you will also note that I am a strong advocate for medical supervision while using hormone products, and there is no reason the same should not apply to herbals. My biggest fear is that many think just because they can buy herbal products off the shelf without a doctor, then these products must be safe. Maybe they are, but maybe not. 100mg for you might be ideal, but might be deadly to someone with diabetes. And last but not least because I see the same thing in pesticide usage by homeowners, if one scoop is good, two must be better. The risk is high when someone only focuses on the results and forgets about the rest of their health.

Hugs and best wishes,
Marsha

Wow, after reading all the posts here I suggest the clear winner is Crissie, Lucy, Marsha.
Scientifically researched, and you girls really impressed me with your patience but clearly right to the point, with no snafu rhetoric.
I have never considered some of these products in question, but after this type of documentation the answer should be clear. I know of to many girls medicating themselves without a doctor, just playing Russian roulette from my view point.
Nice work girls......now....Crissie, I tried going to your website for that gas saving product you mentioned, but gosh I could not find it....LOL...I really wonder now, after reading some of the posts how many went there looking.
Triple Huggs from Tammy

Cristine Shye writes:
"Shows how much interest you realy have in this site, apart from your obvious promotional expeditions"

Actually, if my intention was "promotional expeditions",
I would have mentioned the products and spoken about each of them specifically.
I have not done that in any way.

And, by the way, y'all were posting specifically about my company and products,
LONG before I first came here to join the discussion.
It IS the title of this thread....

This is a discussion forum about the use of herbs for feminizing, is it not?
I don't think I have stepped outside of those boundaries.

Marsha Ann writes:
"So you understand where I am coming from, I am not a fan of any herbal products primarily because of the confusion related to what to use a herbal for and what is the proper dosage for safe use."

Which is, at the end of the day, about education.
About learning what does what, and how much is safe vs how much is effective.

Most of us do not want to learn everything about all of the drugs in the world, which one(s) to use for what and how much,
so we rely on doctors to tell us.
In the same vein, most of us do not want to learn about all the various plants and herbs in the world;
and so we rely on herbologists...

Beyond that, though, and very important to know, is that herbs are a manufacturing base for many many drug products.
This is not just about herbs used for hormone management.

For example, the cholestrol lower drug Lovastatin, is made from Red Yeast Rice;
which is an herb that works just as well as the drug version works, for lowering cholesterol.
<http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/red-yeast-rice/ns_patient-redyeast>

By the way, for readers of this thread,
ALL of the statin drugs, (Lipitor, Zocor, Lovastatin, et al) block the human body's synthesis of CoEnzyme Q10
which is crucial for cellular energy.
If a person is taking any statin drug, they need to also be taking CoQ10 supplements.
<http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Coenzyme-Q10.html>

I share Marsha Ann's passion for health safety, especially for people going through transition.

And I share her passion for health safety, even one step further:
My daughter has been dealing with a severe health issue, most of her adult life;
she has elephantitis -- she is 6'2", and is built like a linebacker.
She also has lymphedema; waste fluids are not pulled from her legs as they should be
and therefore her calves are huge in circumference.

For some amazing reason, doctor prescriptions for her various associated ailments
(there are no medications, or herbs, for treating lymphedema itself)
doctor prescribed dosages of drugs are the same for her 6'2" 375 pound body,
as doctor recommendations would be for a woman five feet tall and 98 pounds...

Just because a doctor prescribes "x" pill at "y" dosage, makes that prescription neither "safe" nor "effective" in every case.
A recommendation for an "81mg aspirin" daily,
is not necessarily correct both for someone 5'5" 130 pounds, and also for someone 6'2" and 375 pounds.

By the way, for education, aspirin was originally made from an herb called white willow bark.
Some brands still are. The primary brands are chemical/drug equivalents of this herb

Women's medication regimens and recommendations, throughout the centuries, have honored the symptoms and also the person's body.
Male medical regimens are based on "one size fits all"

There are many ways to help ensure our health safety.

Saw Palmetto:

Saw Palmetto is highly recommended by many TG/TS web sites as a breast growth herb, and as a feminizing herb.

Nothing could be further from the truth,
and those pushing Saw Palmetto for breast growth or feminization,
are putting many TG/TS people at grave health risk.

The truth is that a lot of scientific research over the past few years,
has shown Saw Palmetto to be VERY good for improving prostate health;
and this research has especially proven that a good Saw Palmetto Complex product
will generally work better than -- out perform -- any drugs created for prostate health issues.
With greater health safety than the drugs provide.
<http://health.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/12/02/saw-palmetto-a-prostate’s-best-friend/>
<http://menshealth.suite101.com/article.cfm/saw_palmetto_for_prostate_health>
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12674456>


Here's the problem for the girls in our community, though:

There are many born-women's, cis-women's, web sites which indicate that Saw Palmetto helps born/cis-women's bodies to grow larger breasts.
This may or may not be true, but this is not true in most cases, for born women.
And it is not true at all ever, for born-male bodies.

There is a wildly marketed feminization scheme which emails heavily throughout the TG/TS community,
which is called Flat2Fem.

The woman promoting this site has many of her followers taking such HUGE dosages of Saw Palmetto on a daily basis,
that many of our TG/TS sisters are now reporting serious problems
with digestive and intestinal problems because of serious overdosing on this herb.

In the name of health safety, let's be VERY clear:

(1) Saw Palmetto is NOT estrogen, and will not become estrogen of ANY type in the human body.
Actually, Saw Palmetto, in a born-male body, can create additional testosterone levels...

(2) Saw Palmetto can work very well for resolving prostate problems, better than any currently available drug.

(3) IF Saw Palmetto actually did work to grow breasts,
the hundreds of thousands of males who use SawPalmetto frequently to resolve prostate issues,
would most all have also grown breasts as a side effect, wanted or not.

(4) Overdosing on Saw Palmetto, will cause digestive and intestinal problems

(5) Saw Palmetto is one of the primary reasons that a myth exists about "herbs not working for breast growth or other feminization".

Please pass the word to our TG/TS sisters:
Stop the Saw Palmetto nonsense.
It does not work, and it is NOT healthy to use in high dosages.

Thanks Dainna for posting that because I always wondered about saw palmetto myself. I'm guessing those selling saw palmetto products are thinking along the lines of how finasteride or bicalutamide work on the prostate and are taken by some TS's such as myself as part of my HRT regimen.

I'm sure you are alluding to finasteride (Proscar) being used for enlarged prostates, whereas TS's often use a lower dose to control DHT to prevent further hair loss. It is also sold for hair loss prevention under the name Propecia.

Bicalutamide (Casodex) is a prostate cancer drug that blocks Testosterone receptors. Just as there are estrogen fed breast cancers, prostate cancer is fed by testosterone. A side note on Casodex use for prostate cancer, upwards of 70% of the men who use Casodex stop using it because of breast tissue growth. Casodex has been proven to be deadly to as many as 50% of those who have used it at the original prescribed higher dose. This medication is not candy and should only be used under doctors supervision.

Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha Ann writes:
"I always wondered about saw palmetto myself. I'm guessing those selling saw palmetto products are thinking along the lines of how finasteride or bicalutamide work on the prostate"

Actually, its the opposite:
people selling finasteride or bicalutamide are thinking along the lines of how saw palmetto works on the prostate.

People "selling saw palmetto products" are just doing what most of the people around the world have been doing for centuries, for millenia,
they are selling saw palmetto to help to mitigate prostate problems.
Because science still shows saw palmetto working better than the drugs developed for this purpose.

HOWEVER:

The FAR bigger issue, as I posted, is the immense mis-understanding, the wrong-belief,
that saw palmetto will help a male-bodied person to grow breasts, or to otherwise feminize.
It will not.

And also the issue that massive overdosing on Saw Palmetto, which some TG/TS web sites heavily promote doing,
usually causes significant digestive and intestinal problems.

Actually that was the point I was trying to make Dainna, that saw palmetto works for male prostate issues. But! saw palmetto does not provide the same side-effects that a transitioning male to female uses the pharmaceutical products for. So my point is the people who sell saw palmetto to MTFs for breast enlargement are way off base.

Hugs,
Marsha

Well, now I have to ring in here on this.
I have tried many types of Saw Palmetto, for quite a few years. As my family history of genetic problems follow the lines of BPH problems.

NONE of these products made any difference. Note I said, I used them for many years ( at least 5-6 ) I thought it may help. And they did not help my older brother either.

This past 10 months I have been on half a MG of Avodart ( finasteride ) and 8MG of Cardura. My prostrate has gotten smaller on these doctor prescribed medicines.
Soooo, I must rule out Saw Palmetto, as having any help for BPH.
I also know quite a few people my age and older ( 63 + ) that have tried herbal products for this ( BPH ) to no avail. When I say quite a few, means more than ten.

I will not rule out all herbal products that may be given at prescription type strength, and monitored by a qualified doctor.
But OTC products, well go out and buy yourself a nice dress, that works better....at least you'll feel better.
Tammy

Tammy writes:
"I have tried many types of Saw Palmetto, for quite a few years.
NONE of these products made any difference. Note I said, I used them for many years ( at least 5-6 ) I thought it may help. And they did not help my older brother either.
[...] Soooo, I must rule out Saw Palmetto, as having any help for BPH."

First the important disclaimer:
My web site does not sell ANY Saw Palmetto products..
Nor is Saw Palmetto an ingredient in any of the products on my web site.

I have "no dog in this hunt".

I will not begin to guess the source of the Saw Palmetto whichTammy and her brother used.
Nor the potency of it.
I will only assume that what they used, was something other than a good brand of Saw Palmetto Complex,
yes, available OTC (Over the Counter) but more expensive than just crushed herbs in a bottle.

But it makes no sense to say that if something did not "work" for two people, it must therefore not work for anyone at all.

The original post I made about saw palmetto, has three links to research studies
which do show Saw Palmetto to be very effective
for the majority of people who use it properly.

There are many people for whom Avodart, and finasteride, do not "work", either.
But those drugs do "work" for most people,
albiet with several negative side effects....
If finasteride did not work for "two" people, would it really be reasonable to say would not work for anyone?

Maybe the question should be:
Are people using finasteride for prostate or for hair loss, aware that there is an enzyme in finasteride,
which, if it gets into the body of a woman who is or may become pregnant,
can permanently destroy the penis -- genitalia -- of a male fetus?
<http://www.medicinenet.com/finasteride-oral_hair_growth/article.htm> See the Precautions section.

I know Marsha Ann has huge concerns for the health safety of people in transition.
So do I.
Please read and consider <http://www.drugs.com/sfx/finasteride-side-effects.html>
(skip over the "Google Ads" sections, and read to the bottom of the page

Christine writes:
"regarding the substantiated adverse reports about pueraria murificia, you have not made any comment about that?
We are talking about the extracts from the white root. "

Couple of things, since you asked:
Animal testing of products for toxicity, involves giving animals greater and larger dosages, until the animal dies.
If something will eventually kill an animal, regardless of extreme dosage, it is labeled toxic.
Unless the substance is a drug -- drugs are not considered toxic until they are killing actual people,
for example Vioxx.

The animal tested dosage where Pueraria Murificia becomes toxic, is 600mg per Kg of body weight.
A Kilogram is 2.2 pounds.
A 176 pound person -- 80Kg person -- would therefore need to consume 600 x 80 = 48,000mg of pueraria murifica daily...
which is 48 grams of pueraria murifica daily. That is a LOT of raw dry herb to be swallowing....
which is 240 capsules daily at 200mg daily of raw herb.

If someone were to consume an entire bottle every day, of our product with the highest amount of pueraria murifica ingredients,
they would be getting 2,400mg; one twentieth of this toxic amount. Five percent.
A 176 pound person would have to consume twenty full 60-capsule-bottles daily, to even approach the toxic amount.

But hey -- I might have a bias on the safety of pueraria mirificia

So let's see what real research and testing says:
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14971532>
This is the US National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17957910>
This study compared pueraria murificia against Premarin,
with and without added Provera (medroxyprogesterone)
"CONCLUSION: PM, [Pueraria Murificia] containing phytoestrogens, has estrogenic effect as similar as [Premarin],
and can alleviate the climacteric symptoms in perimenopausal women.
PM demonstrates great promise in the treatment of climacteric symptoms."

And nothing about it being toxic, in either study.

Every form of supplemental estrogen can be toxic if used in overdose.

By the way, pure clean water can bring adverse reactions also, if someone overdoses on it.
Pure clean water can kill a human being, if overdosed.

Hey...I started this thread a while back and now, 4 days shy of 6 months of using recommended protocol from the site, will give you a short summary of what it has done for me...
of using prescribed meds or herbals from a licensed, experienced in the TG world, medical doctor. There are pros and cons for each, but I selected the herbals for health reasons. The only negative when comparing the herbals to the prescribed was the cost. (OK, and perhaps official FDA documentation of approval, but herbals don't swim in that water anyhow) The herbals cost more than the prescriptions would. But it was not significant difference nor worth the risk of the potential health risk associated with prescribed. Anyhow, before THAT paragraph lights up another flame, let me share with you...

I will be 60 this summer...

Medical exams have found that my BP has dropped slightly, but was always and still is in the very good range, 110/72 give or take 2-4 depending on when taken.
Pulse has remained steady at approx. 68-72/bpm

Here's the fun part...testosterone is measured at 140 whatevers...as in *poof*...
Estrogen measured at 94 whatever that meant (I forget the exact terminology and type of test)
Those are female levels...(smile)

Skin is much softer...not "placebo" effect...
Waist has come in from a 36 to to 33 and has moved "up" my torso... \ /
Forget measuring breasts in traditional band/cup size...suffice to say that although I have shed 35 pounds in literally one year (by design), breast tissue beneath surface of skin has increased to a "frightening" level! Frightening as in "holy crap, this stuff really works and I'll NEVER be able to go topless in male mode again". They have taken a true femme shape. Not huge, but decidedly female shaped with a LOT of duct, gland. and fat tissue to support them. Oh, I have lactated often...small amounts, but REAL. Tight knit tops reveal a women's chest, flat, but female.
Thighs have thickened recently in the upper parts and I can close them together now, where in the past, I had too much "bow" in my legs to keep them tightly together.
Butt cheeks have widened and developed their own roundness that used to be a flat man's butt...can wear a bikini bottom now and it looks terrific!
Male organs have shrunk some and no longer "work" the way they used to, if at all at times.
Visual things no longer "excite" and overall demeanor has changed, softened if you will...far more pleasant, agreeable, understanding than ever...also cried once over road kill! WTF!!!

I could add more, but this is beating a dead horse...

Let me ask you, is it possible, just possible that these herbals COULD work? Is it also possible that they are healthy and actually do positive things to your body? How do you explain shrinking or vanished varicose veins which I had had since 1973? Or hair regrowth in a somewhat thinning forehead or crown?

Please site members, and I do and always will respect your opinions, but this is not a sales pitch designed to make Dianna rich...if you pay any attention to the TG or GLBT world in the US, you 'll know what I mean...I am thrilled for all the girls that have gone prescribed route and have gotten results they were seeking...what hasn't been brought up ever are the girls who go prescribed and kill themselves due to hormone imbalance, or ruin their internal organs due to spiro, or just do not get what they were hoping for all their lives...I'd never say that prescribed doesn't work...it does and has for so many and that is a good thing...but I will say that the herbals have worked for me beyond my expectations thus far...

AND, if things change and I get sick or develop an issue I will share that too...but it is unlikely based on teaming with proper protocol and medical exams....

OK...now beat me again...

Traci

Traci, I don't want to burst your bubble and I hope you are healthy and seeing some results but let me point out a couple things on your lab results.

Women's testosterone levels typically range from 6-86ng/dl
Men's testosterone levels typically range from 240-800
So your level is very low for a male but higher than a female.

There are 3 measurements for estrogen, E1, E2, and Total Estrogen. So you need to know which test you had. E1 and Total are worthless numbers as they do not effect transition like E2 (estradiol) does.
E2 levels should be 200-600pg/ml
So you are way low.
My E2 has ranged from 341 (see attached photo) - 691pg/ml
one of my labs : http://gendersociety.com/[...]asc=ASC
references: http://www.fertilityplus.[...]ls.html

Hugs,
Marsha

Dainna,
Please, read my whole post, before a comment, it was short.

I am surprised that you could glean what you wrote from my post. I see that your being very defensive but, read, and please don't assume as to what I bought and what my friends, and brother bought. I paid a good some of money for OTC Saw Palmetto I bought just like your OTC products that you are seemingly defending for what ever your reason maybe.

I wrote just lower, in the post...Tammy wrote.....I also know quite a few people my age and older ( 63 + ) that have tried herbal products for this ( BPH ) to no avail. When I say quite a few, means more than ten. Please note, it was more than just two people.

And I never said that you could not..... as Dainna wrote...Soooo, I must rule out Saw Palmetto, as having any help for BPH."
Please read my whole post again..... My my you are so defensive for what ever reason.

I wrote in the last paragraph .Tammy wrote......I will not rule out all herbal products that may be given at prescription type strength, and monitored by a qualified doctor.

Dainna, I will just give you the benefit of the doubt, that you over looked a few things in my post, for what ever reason.

Tammy

Lucy writes:
"“All medicines may cause side effects, but many people have no, or minor, side effects. No COMMON side effects have been reported with Finasteride.”
Side effects with Finasteride are rare, so it’s not fair to say that they work for most people but will have negative side-effects."

Yes -- and yet, the drug is potentially dangerous enough that is supposed to be available only via doctor's prescription,
with routine checkups to make certain it is neither causing damage, nor being overused, overdosed.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20100401/hl_hsn/studyrevivesdebateonprostatedrug

Lucy writes:
And yes, I for one am aware that Finasteride should not be handled by pregnant women;
I suspect most of us are. I won’t be asking any natal females to chop up my tablets. "

And you are also aware that there is a significant debate over the potential dangers
involved with transfer of the enzyme in Finasteride which can be passed into a natal female, via semen?

I am not saying that Finasteride should not be used.
And I am not willing to agree that it is a benign drug, either.
Its sale and usage are controlled by the medical community.

Lucy writes:
"Bio-identical oestrogen, already present in your body, is a very safe "medicine". It is made from the same raw ingredients as some herbal products, but is modified to make the end product identical to human oestrogen, requiring considerably smaller doses and thereby reducing toxicity.

Yes -- that is what Standardized and Concentrated extracts of herbs are all about.
These processes extract and gather just the active ingredients of herbs,
so that smaller dosages can be used to produce the same outcomes, and to reduce toxicity.

This is the same as extracting THC and CBC from the herb marijuana, for medicinal uses.
http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=6057
http://www.mesotheliomanews.com/2009/12/31/marijuana-extracts/

This is not just about feminizing herbs,
this is about herbs which have become the basis of many many drugs, from aspirin to Lovastatin.

I am not saying that herbs are all "good",
and I am not saying that prescription drugs are all "bad".

Tammy writes:
"And I never said that you could not..... as Dainna wrote...Soooo, I must rule out Saw Palmetto, as having any help for BPH."
Please read my whole post again..... My my you are so defensive for what ever reason.
I wrote in the last paragraph .Tammy wrote......I will not rule out all herbal products that may be given at prescription type strength, and monitored by a qualified doctor.
Dainna, I will just give you the benefit of the doubt, that you over looked a few things in my post, for what ever reason. "

I am confused:
Here is the entire paragraph Tammy posted:
"This past 10 months I have been on half a MG of Avodart ( finasteride ) and 8MG of Cardura. My prostrate has gotten smaller on these doctor prescribed medicines.
Soooo, I must rule out Saw Palmetto, as having any help for BPH.
I also know quite a few people my age and older ( 63 + ) that have tried herbal products for this ( BPH ) to no avail. When I say quite a few, means more than ten.

So I am confused about being "defensive" and of "over looked a few things in my post, for what ever reason"

????

Christine writes:
"See where I'm coming from? "

Yes, I do.

The point I was trying to make, though, is that toxicity levels are often SO high as to be ridiculous;
and most people only want to see "toxicity", and not "at what level of intake".

In the mid 1970's, the FDA moved to ban the artificial sweetener Saccharin from all soda pop in the USA;
based on toxicity testing with rats/mice.
The equivalent amount of saccharin to actually BE toxic to a human being,
would have been -- if memory serves -- 80-100 cans of soda pop every day.
The ban was lifted in 2001.

Saccharin is still rarely used as an artificial sweetener additive in soda pop;
the far more dangerous Aspartame is now the chemical of choice for sweetener additives/substitutes.

Saccharin is the chemical in the pink packets -- primarily Sweet 'n Low.

The bottom line in all of this, is that
(1) our world here in America, is filled with chemicals.... most of the common foods we eat
have -- over the past 20 years -- become filled with chemicals and hormones and antibiotics.
Most beef, most chicken, most dairy products, in particular.

Processed foods have become filled with chemicals such as Monosodium Glutamate (MSG)
high fructose corn syrup, and hydrolyzed vegetable oils (which become trans-fatty acids in our bodies when we eat those products).

And also Bovine Growth Hormone (rBGH), which infects virtually all commercially available beef,
and the rBGH equivalent given to mass market chickens.

Watch the movies "Food, Inc,", and "SuperSize Me", to get an overview of these problem.

Also, did you know that that the farm-grown fish called Tilapia, is filled with testosterone?
They use testosterone in the growth ponds to change the females to males, because males grow faster and taster better.
Cooking the fish, does not nullify the testosterone.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thecheckout/2008/07/transsexual_tilapia.html
http://www.naturalnews.com/026006_tilapia_testosterone_food.html

(2) On the other side, over the past 10-20 years, non-drug companies have been re-writing the "book" on what herbal based products are capable of doing to improve human health.

And so we have research and wonderous products for -- as an example -- overcoming what is currently being called an epidemic of vitamin D3 shortage.
D3, is NOT a drug, current forms are not patented chemical drug concoctions;
my 92 year old mother was recently given a 50,000 iu shot of D3 by her PCP Doctor.
Many doctors are highly recommending that people use 1,000 iu, to 6,000 iu daily, and more.

Likewise, doctors are highly recommending that people take supplemental Omega-3, daily.
Fish oils are the common source for Omega-3.

Beer is an herbal based product (barley malt, rice, hops), as are rum (sugar cane) and vodka (potatoes).

Spaghetti is an herbal-based meal which is VERY healthy, especially if home-made;
wheat for the noodles, licopene from the tomatoes in the sauce, olive oil, garlic, onions, and all the other herbs which people use in a good sauce....
All are VERY good for human health.
However, mass market spaghetti sauces also have chemicals like MSG, high fructose corn syrup, hydrolyzed vegetable oil, etc.

Do not be too quick to write off, to Diss, herbal based products.
Properly used herbs, are how humanity has survived for many thousands of years.

Having tried the herbal route about 10 years ago I can totally recommend them. Not because I have female development.....they did nothing visible but bloody hell I tasted nice!

Alison writes:
Having tried the herbal route about 10 years ago

What all herbs did you use?

At what dosage?

For how long?