I just want to send out a big thank you to the others in the 53% here in the U.S. that paid there taxes today so 47% of the population does not have to. Isn't it magical how our government comes up with all the freebie programs and money to pay for them.
Hugs,
Marsha

There was an ad at the top of the thread "Help those most in need", At least Marsha, you are doing your bit. Doing volunteer work among the homeless and needy for the past 20 years I have met a variety of "unemployed" with a lot of problems. There are many suffering from mental health illnesses. 45 years ago I was unemployed with a family, so I emigrated and have never looked back. My relatives thought I was mad at the time. However, I never forget when I meet these people, "There but for the grace of God go I."

There was an ad at the top of the thread "Help those most in need", At least Marsha, you are doing your bit. Doing volunteer work among the homeless and needy for the past 20 years I have met a variety of "unemployed" with a lot of problems. There are many suffering from mental health illnesses. 45 years ago I was unemployed with a family, so I emigrated and have never looked back. My relatives thought I was mad at the time. However, I never forget when I meet these people, "There but for the grace of God go I."

Joanne, I commend you on your volunteer work. However, I would like to point out that the 47% here in the U.S. that do not pay taxes are not necessarily the poor and homeless. In many cases these are people making in the range of $50000 per year living comfortable, not wealthy lives. The problem is these people get many of the special perks and tax credits which essentially eliminate them from contributing to the needs of our country. In essence a new class of needy, those with their hands out, has been created. I do sympathize with those who are honestly in need, but I believe everyone should contribute.
Hugs,
Marsha

OMG Nikki, you really do understand.

Lots of hugs,
Marsha

Nikki

You are sooo right about the UK, i,ve worked all my life and earn an average wage.

My son lives with me, and my daugther lives with my ex wife, so we have one child each.
So i suppose i.m a single working parent ( i work approx 50 hours a week )

Last month the CSA, told me i have to pay my wife ( who now lives with her partner ) £205.00 a month.

WHY because she chooses NOT to work, and therefore she can claim maintaince off me, even thou she received £75.000 from me 6 months ago.

I,m being penalised for working, which leaves me and my son £56.00 a week to live on.

ITS JUST NOT FARE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would be better off not working, but thats not me !!

Paula

Rae that is the drawback when the government starts stressing the balance of income versus expenses. Something has to give and first to go is aid to those who have the smallest voice.
Hugs,
Marsha

Look at it from my point of view.

Why are people who don't work, seem to be better off than me.

I understand there are genuine cases out there.

BUT there are many people who know how to work the system, and do so !!!

Its too easy to sit on your arse !!! and get paid for it.

Sorry if that sounds strong, but was working in Birmingham today, and it took me 4 hours to get home, to my son at around 7.30 pm !!!

Anna, I don't think anyone was saying all who are on public aid are free loaders. I believe the comments are more directed at those who work the system versus work. Here in the U.S. 47% of the population are not paying federal income tax. Should that figure go over 50% there will be no incentive for those receiving public aid to seek any change that could negatively effect them. Something like this could cause a domino effect where those making the money and paying the taxes will say why bother, which would then result in businesses shutting down, more job losses, and government revenue being decreased which would either cause increased taxes to those still making money and or cutbacks in aid to those receiving it. It all sounds simple, but can somebody please explain it to a politician so they stop buying votes with giveaway programs.
Hugs,
Marsha

I presume in Europe and the Americas there is what we call the "Black Economy" ie working for cash in hand. Also there are the large companies which pay little or no tax.

Anna

I not tarring everyone with the same brush, as i said in my last post " there are genuine cases out there ", and i.m sure you are one of those..

BUT you know as well as me, there our many people out there, who don't want to work and never will !!!

I should know, i was married to one !!!!!!

Hope you find work soon.

Paula

Joanne, you are right about the "black economy", we call it getting paid under the table here and because that money is not documented the taxing authorities have no way of knowing it existed.

As for companies not paying taxes, there can be numerous legitimate reasons for that. First off, the company may have not made a profit. I think that is one of the biggest misunderstood things out there. Some people think that all businesses make gobs of money. If that is the case please explain why so many closed during this latest economic crisis. Other reasons are that the company may have earned tax credits based on hiring employees during difficult economic times, made capital expenditures to boost the economy, and tax credits for reducing pollution. Here in the U.S., many states or local governments will offer substantial tax breaks if a company moves to the area, which will provided employment opportunities and a future tax base. People will often accuse corporations of not paying taxes but forget that everyone working there is paying taxes on the money earned at the corporation. In my opinion that is how it should be as long as the corporation is paying out what it brings in to its workers in a fair and equitable manner. I believe in most cases that is what happens. We tend to get all upset when we hear about a corporate executive makings tens of millions of dollars, but in reality, most business are nowhere near that size.

Of course there are companies that manipulate their accounting as to reduce or eliminate any taxes. That often happens because of loopholes in the tax rules. Here in the U.S. the tax laws are so complicated that companies hire individuals to seek out those loopholes and exploit them. It really comes down to interpretation.

Hugs,
Marsha

I know exactly what you mean marsha. Since I have been unemployed I get the interest on my mortgage paid, council tax paid and i receive sufficient allowance to fund my alcoholism and to show my gratitude i go to the bus stop every monday morning at 8am smelling of white lightening and wee and thank everyone for paying their taxes.
much love
penny
x

You are right Melody, or maybe I should say extreme left. All .1% of them help make up the 47% who are not paying taxes. You could take away ALL the money the wealthiest in the U.S. have and you would still not have enough to pay off the deficit. Those evil corporations, omg we should just shut them all down. You would love that, then you could bitch about how quickly we become a third world nation. LBJ's war on poverty sure has worked well, hasn't it. Maybe if our government throws more money at the problem like they have year after year after year for the last 45 years, we can put an end to it. The problem is our government continues to enable more and more people with entitlements resulting in fewer workers to support the ever increasing entitlements. Somehow ignorant people continue to believe all corporations have deep pockets and should take on an ever increasing burden of paying for those who should contribute, but don't. I believe there are truly many in need of assistance and I firmly believe it is governments role to assist them, however politicians in an effort to gain votes have expanded entitlements to an unsustainable level.

Instead of reading your generalizations and your soap opera about how the wealthy don't pay taxes, here are IRS statistics as of 2007.
reference: http://www.taxfoundation.[...]50.html

The top .1% paid 20.19% of the total income taxes averaging a tax rate of 21.5%
The top 1% paid 40.42% of the total income taxes averaging a tax rate of 22.45%
The top 50% paid 97.11% of the total income taxes averaging a tax rate of 14.03%
The bottom 50% paid 2.89% of the total income taxes averaging only a tax rate of 2.99%

Hugs,
Marsha

Hugs Melody, you are welcome to your views and we can all learn from each other if we keep open minds.
Love,
Marsha

Marsha,
In Canada, I always paid lots of taxes but we have many here that don't pay taxes as well. They are usually those that make $200,000/year or more - or those that earn very little.
We have, however, a serious Immigration problem caused by previous "Left -Wing" Political Parties that rely on the "grateful Immigrant" vote to get elected to Parliament.
In this Country, our Immigration exceeds that of the UK while only having half their population. Worse yet, we have a "Family Reunification Program" that allows Parents, Uncles, Aunts etc. to immigrate if their Adult Children have immigrated here as well. This of course, means full benefits (medical, social assistance etc.) to seniors that have never paid a cent into this country - and never will. Most of these Immigrants have come from Countries that have virtually no Heath Care and require extensive Medical Assistance from the moment they get off the plane. As well, many women coming from China are at virtually "full term" in their pregnancy and come to get free Health Care for the delivery - and of course, since their Child is Born on Canadian Soil...the Child is Canadian. Since their Child is Canadian, they can stay here too.
We can all thank the Socialist and the rest of the "Left-Wing" for the mess we are in...that is where the problem lies!!

Nikki,
I understand the situation you are in. I was awarded Custody of my Two Children before they even started school and never got a cent of Child Support. The way the courts are so biased, I was damn lucky to get custody....and as far as transitioning when you have young Children....forget it!!
Back then, you had to have Ovaries or you didn't count...

as of today I am one of those few who have to pay taxes plus I also stand behind those men and women who serve in the Armed Forces of USA, I served in the US Navy for 8 yrs active and 2 yrs reserve.

It is very easy to kick those on the bottom rung of the social ladder. We should be more appreciative of what we have and less concerned with those who fundamentally have nothing. If you want to focus on abuses of the system you should look at those wealthy people who want all the privileges of living in freedom but are unwilling to pay for it and syphon their money into tax havens. I know what it is like to be at rock bottom and am grateful for the assistance I received, minimal though it was. All systems are open to abuse but I would rather live in a society where help was available than in one where you are left to rot.

After reading this thread, it appears that most of us are on the same page. Nobody is against those who are down on their luck and really need the help (it could happen to any of us and I think we all really appreciate the safety net that is out there whether you live in the U.S., U.K. or elsewhere), however, what bothers almost everyone on the thread are the freeloaders who live off the system and make no contribution. Unfortunately, as one of the 53% Marsha was talking about, I am starting to believe that the freeloaders are becoming a much higher percentage than those who are truly in need. That concerns me because, as someone who wants to ensure that a safety net exists for those who really are in need (I could be there in a heartbeat), freeloaders not only result in less benefits for those who need them (they soak up the benefits that could go to the needy), the freeloaders also result in resentment at the system as a whole. The real issue is how to find the freeloaders and eliminate them from the system. I think that is something on which we can all agree (of course, how to do it is obviously a whole other matter!).

Hugs,

Tiffany

Tiffany and Anna Marie

You have both summed it up perfectly !!!!!

Thats exactly how i feel about it.

Paula

Joanne
I can only speak for this area of the US -Texas. The "Black Economy" is thriving here. "Cash please?"
Gracie

Zoey, in no way am I against individuals like you receiving public aid. I fully believe that is one of the most important functions of government, one aiding the disabled, and two defending our nation. The problem with our government and to some extent the people who manipulate the system, is there is no accountability. There is no followup on seeing if previously funded programs work or not. Or if they are not working, all that happens is more money is thrown at them in "hopes" that will make them work. Businesses and individuals have "X" dollars to work with in their budgets, government should function the same way. This is not a democrat vs republican issue, they are both to blame.
Hugs,
Marsha

p.s., Since this thread was brought back to life after the Sept 15 estimated tax payment was due, I just want to assure those on the receiving end that I did mail in another check. So you're good for another quarter. LOL

Hugs,
Marsha

If this keep up we'll be in the minority. With the way things are going why should people work? They have just as much as I do.
Just no pride.

Karen - the UK is just the same, it's known throughout Europe as the welfare state. They might as well advertise it.

'If your own country can't support you, just come the UK,we'll house you, give you plenty of money to live on, pay for you children's education and the best part is, you don't have to contribute a thing.'

The people that suffer the most are the 'middle' classe, teachers, social workers, nurses etc, as they earn enough not to recieve any assistance or breaks from the government. There are a lot of people living on state benefits who have more money to live on per month than those actually earning a decent salary and working a full week. How is that ever fair? It gets even better when you ask them why they aren't even looking for work. The usual answer is along the lines of 'because I would be worse off!'

Benefits are there to help you through unemployment gaps or to assist those on low incomes, they have instead become an alternative to work.

It makes me mad

Nikki

taxed as you earn it, taxed as you spend it, taxed on what you put away jusy incase you hit hard times, if you save for your retirement your taxed on that when you draw it and again when you spend it, and taxed on what you leave when you die, not counting inheritance tax and property tax on money you have already been taxed on. If one actually worked out the total tax per pound probably be about 75% over a lifetime. And what do the spend it on, apart from the indolant and lazy, imigrants that realy have no legal status here. and financial controllers for the NHS, think its about 5 managers now for each front line nurse or doctor. Spend the lot on building work camps and jails. where its realy needed. Free knickers and bras for trannies, lol



Cristine

"...The people that suffer the most are the 'middle' classe, teachers, social workers, nurses etc, as they earn enough not to recieve any assistance or breaks from the government..."

I think we can add two further groups to that lot. The severely disabled and seriously ill. Much needed benefits are being removed from these people or denied them all together via flawed computerised assessments. In a system that I will kindly call 'bureaucratic euthanasia' thousands of seriously ill people are being put at risk of their conditions worsening. The UK may appear to be giving benefits to all and sundry but don't be fooled by the hype of a few well publicised stories in the popular press. In reality, the system is in a complete mess and disabled peoples lives are being put in real danger.

Rae.

Nikki, there are some people that are on benefits through no fault of their own. Some of the unemployed are right lazy, idle sods who just sit on their butts all day. There are some, like myself, who are genuine cases. I've always said that i'd much rather be out there EARNING the money rather than sitting back & doing nothing. The Problem i face is that fact that where i live is an unemployment hot-spot & there's virtually nothing available apart from temporary work. I have done countless numbers of these silly " Job" courses and they have done me no good at all & it makes me wonder why i bother trying but i never give up as i've been brought up properly. It really does make me angry when the Media describe the unemployed as workshy sponging layabouts......we're not ALL like that.


lol xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Anna-Marie

Marsha hunni, don't I know it!

I haven't been able to work since November 2008. Up until that point I had a great little one-girl taxi business looking after a rural constituency. When my condition became worse I had to give it up. It wasn't the sort of business you could sell so I chose one or two other drivers I could trust to look after my customers to the standard I did. They got tens of thousands of pounds worth of business!
Like all long term sick or disabled people I'd give everything to be generating an income again and not be reliant on benefits. Believe me - for those who look at us with green eyed envy - it really isn't worth it. As the saying goes: The hours are great but the moneys crap.
Anyone who can get through from monday to sunday without hardship is doing something dodgy on the side. If anyone thinks our lives are luxurious ones awash with cash go think again. Or, better still, saw your leg off and see how you get by...

I think I can speak for everyone in my particular situation. Yes, we want those workshy wasters off benefits and into work. They give us a bad name. But the government is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. The inflexability of the new system has meant thousands of desperate people - I know, I'm one of them - have been cut off from the benefit system. At the moment I don't qualify for anything at all. After going through the system for 17 months I have to start the whole damn thing again. Great.
But I'm also lucky. Everybody I speak to - be they my adviser at the Job Centre or the department of Works and Pensions - take one look at my file and say the same thing. 'Oh God, I'm really shocked by this'. But it's happening by the thousand. Again, I'm lucky that my MP has been in direct contact with the Chief executive of Job Centre Plus to raise my case. But, as I've banged on about, it's the thousands and thousands of others who are also falling through the trap door that I'm concerned about.

Believe me, if I wasn't as mentally strong as I am than I would have seriously considered suicide as I don't wish to be a financial burden to my friends. And I can't believe that several people haven't already killed themselves over this issue. It's serious folks. I didn't call it 'bureaucratic euthanasia' for nothing...

I'd like to finish this unfortunate diatribe on a good note. Sadly, there isn't one. The latest medical review of the system in place appears to be making things worse. And neither main party look to changing it. So, if you live in the UK, you better not have a serious accident or contract a life threatening disease. Because you may well find yourself deep in the poo...

Rae.

Paula, you have a point there but its not always the case that People that are out of work are better off than those working. Take myself for example....after the HB takes care of the rent, i'm lucky if i have £65 a week to live on. I guess what i'm saying is please do not tar everyone with the same Brush. If you were ever out of work then you'd know how hard it is having to live on so little.



Anna Marie

Here'a a small start!!

Bank of America paid no taxes in 2009, even though it made $4.4 billion income.

GE made $10.3 billion in pre-tax income in 2008, but didn't have to pay a single cent in taxes

Molson Coors paid no taxes in 2009, and was actually paid $14.7 million by the government.

Busted - Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner failed to pay taxes of $42,000 on IMF income

But Marsha, the pay-no-taxes corporations and billionaires are part of your 47%.

No matter how much you like them, they are the main reason you have to pay more than you think you should, not the homeless and mentally ill.

Best,
Melody

"extreme left" - girl, it's good to be called that again. It's nice to think someone thinks I am.

Most of my liberal friends claim I've slipped back to being a "progressive" as I approach my dotage.

Thanks, Marsha.

Best,
Melody

"I know what it is like to be at rock bottom and am grateful for the assistance I received, minimal though it was. All systems are open to abuse but I would rather live in a society where help was available than in one where you are left to rot."

Well, it may not be worth much porscha but you have my total respect there.
Best wishes
Rae.

Paula, you are right there, about certain groups of peeps not wanting to work. What really makes me angry is the fact in the press & Media its the lazy workshy lot ( those who don't want to work) are giving the genuine ones ( those who DO want to work) a bad name & it is not fair


Anna-Marie

Speaking of taxes.. it suprises me how all the right people get all the tax breaks & we in the lower & middle calss get tazed more. It all because those with the deep pockets pay off their U.S. senitors & reps & others too to get what they want done in congress, now I think that they should be taxed more & us taxed less that will help our economy so much more then taxing us poor wooking stiffs more.

Exactly Janis full employment would lead to ever-increasing inflation. So, its only fair to susidize the unemployed.

I learned my economics at a very early age:

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery." - Wilkins Micawber in DAVID COPPERFIELD by Charles Dickens.

I wonder if we should send a copy to every elected member of the Legislative and Executive branches of the US.

If you want to have a capitalist system you have to have a significant portion of the population unemployed who can then be traded off against the working class to keep wages down with threats and implementation of unemployment . There has never been, nor can there be full employment in a capitalist system.
(Apart from having a good old war of course.)

I don't think you quite understand Marsha. Every piece of physical capital can be claimed. Then capital disintegration, labor costs, losses, and various incentives can be claimed. Even mom and pop business get quite a few hand outs but only because they'd go out of business if they didn't have them. Major corporations, through lobbying, receive exactly that and more. Just read about the subsidies given to corporate farms and it will make you sick.

The way unemployment should work is the following, and I'll use myself as an example even though I'm currently employed:

I'm a recent college graduate. If I were to face expected unemployment I should be capable to receive benefits, projected at expected income if I were working given my major. This would allow me search for work, do and unpaid internship which would build a resume, etc. Only upon getting a job that matches my current skill set would I cease collecting unemployment. My duration should be only for one year.

This would allow high-school drop-outs to get the lower-value added jobs since I wouldn't waste my time on them. The result would be multiple people hired instead of one: me taking the lower-valued added job immediately at their expense. I build a resume and get hired when I can for that $19 vs $10. Having a couple people employed vs one optimizes the M. multiplier, thus its economically rational.

However, we Americans love to blame the individual for structural issues and this is a structural issue. Too many major shareholders and CEO's are getting kick backs when the govt throws away the mass consumers. 90% of business innovation is done by small business, yet over 95% of the subsidies go to corporations.

If you consider business as economies than roughly 19 of the top economies of the world are businesses, when considering Gross Income as the equivalent to GNP...yet American major corporations get the majority of such subsidies and my many of my peers are homeless.

Honestly, I could talk about this hours but to make it short I'm with ya Marsh.

We have socialism, but for the wealthy.

Tax cuts and subsidies make sense if it develops economic growth. Subsidizing individuals makes sense only in terms of optimizing the money multiplier. Basically, the M. multiplier is the fact that by the time you spend you're dollar its turned in roughly $13-14 by the time it reaches the Feds. through various taxes (you pay rent, you're landlord pays a utility bill, that company pays salar...all of which are taxed).

With such a construct you want to subsidize low if at all since such consumers will buy from the Mom&Pop shops as this creates jobs. Basically the middle and early profesional classes, if subsidized, go on vacation and thus support local business (in that town). You subsidize the wealthy and they buy foreing goods, which has the smallest M multiplier "chain".

We striclty prefer to subsidize the wealthy on this one. Then we also have roughly 15 million illegals to take care of (effectively subsidizing them) when our working class is perpetually at at least 8% unemployment. Then we also subsidize folks how strictly prefer to work seasonal jobs so they can do nothing and collect unemployment for about 8 months out of the year.

What really makes me sick is being a recent college graduate. Bush effectively privatized student loans so I own a fraction of a mortgage at the typical variable rate. Then recent college graduates have zero subsidies...we can't collect unemployment. Honestly, I'm worried that our "cured" recession could have a 2nd wave since recent grads have nearly an 12% unemployment rate.

Then, as insult to the matter, if you rank taxes amongst the first world and consider "bang for your buck" I stronly believe America has one of tax ratios as nothing is socialized.

All of this really makes me consider emigrating elsewhere.