How appropriate, two different Tribune stories that are so interrelated. Meredith’s story about “Our Own Special Day” and Michelle Hart’s column “Do You Want To Date My Avatar?” For me the answer to both is a resounding “No.” I think a special TG day of our own would hurt the greater TG community immensely. Just as the Pride events are overrun with over the top participants (just look at the picture in the article), A TG day would likely follow the same lines with “want to be whores” showing off their latest fashions. No, I don’t see that as anything positive for the TG community.

Michelle Hart’s reference to Avatars is about the majority of TG dating sites on the web that seem to attract the most foul mouthed TGs who in themselves attract the bottom of the barrel admirers. She mentions the “out and proud” anything goes attitude many gals seem to have with total disregard to how their beyond sleazy appearance and actions effect the community as a whole. And to think some gals wonder why we are not taken seriously or not accepted. Anyone who knows me at all knows that I am 100% in Michelle’s camp on this one. No, I don’t want to date some sleazy Avatar.

Our Own Special Day: http://gendersociety.com/[...]2836273
Do You Want To Date My Avatar?: http://gendersociety.com/[...]2836273

Hugs,
Marsha

The premise of your idea is terrific Mere and maybe someday it will be plausible. However, right now I just don't see the social environment worldwide, let alone here in the United States, as welcoming such an event. Therefore, my view on the likely participants is that they would harm the image of the TG community. I see a Pride type march or parade as being more of a protest, so in that way you are quite right this is similar to the Red Trannies article. It would maybe work in Utopia, but the real world is not ready for it. And of course this is just my opinion.
Hugs,
Marsha

I love that you quoted frank zappa.
I have attended pride parades here in my home state of nebraska, usa, and there are, of course, some "over the top" costumes, but what I see here, more than that, are people from all walks of life, and all orientations, showing solidarity with the original premise of the date. I see that as a good thing, and believe that it shows promise for our species.
in general, I tend to distance myself from "holidays" "awareness weeks" and the like, sometimes I think people like to believe that they can acknowledge a cause on "it's day" or "it's week" and then go about their life as usual, as if buying a card or walking in a parade makes everything ok. the next day they can laugh at the gay joke, the aids joke, the "towel head" comment, and think to themselves "harmless enough, after all, it was a funny joke/comment" until we can, as a species rise above all this, we have gone nowhere.
I still think the idea has merit.
the avatar article, I found myself much in agreement with, I only wish it had been spell checked before publishing

I think there have been some excellent responses here, all of them. What is interesting is I think each of us approached it from a different angle. Again, I think the principle is a worthy idea, I just don't think it is the right time and place for such an event. Melody and Toni's discussion of the idea that one day is quickly forgotten is something that never occurred to me but one I would definitely have to agree with. And Melody's last words she finished with "We just don't have the numbers..." in itself says a great deal. You can ask if there are enough of us to even be noticed or it can be taken another way and resented by society for special treatment for a few.

I think we all agree it is a great idea to raise positive awareness about our community and that is where I feel Michelle Hart's column fits in all this. We need to be out there in the public's eye setting a positive example. No one is saying that the sleazy outfits need to be tossed, everything has its time and place, but for now we are being judged whether anyone likes it or not, so we need to be on our best behavior. When Utopia arrives we can remove the judging and have a group hug.

Hugs,
Marsha

Mere, I think you are still looking at this like getting so many signatures on a petition so something can be placed on an election ballot. I believe Hell would have to freeze over before most married closeted TGs would come out and openly support a public demonstration of any kind.. Because you are wanting to invoke change with their support while giving them no guarantees the change will happen, I don't believe many would show up. Even with hate crime laws and discrimination laws, those same married closeted TGs will not come out and openly support anything. To many TGs, it is just meaningless promises. Here they can use their anonymity to express their views, but they don't count for squat in the real world if they don't openly stand behind it.
Hugs,
Marsha

Seeing the videos of Pride parades on the local news is close enough for me Anna, and think about it, that is exactly what the majority of people will view. So if I am watching sleazy clad "gals" and guys in chaps, so is everyone else. And yes I do believe a Pride march or parade is a protest. Do you see plumbers, electricians, doctors, lawyers, married couples, or anyone else for that matter waltzing down the road to highlight their diverseness? It is an in your face exhibit of look what we can get away with and try and stop us. That is a protest in my book. If it was to honestly highlight diverseness then it would be done along with a community event, but not as the sole event.

Next is 5000 to 10000 for Sparkle, yes we also get crowds like that for the Southern Comfort Conference here in Georgia and from a number of personal friends who have attended more than once, they go for the sleazy late night parties and they will tell you just that, just like the ones we had a recent thread about here at GS. And in the big scheme of things, 5000 to 10000 people for an event is nothing. Most concerts or sporting events would be discontinued with crowds that small. I can understand how someone coming from a smaller town could be awed by the number gathered at one time and that is fine and probably healthy for them to see. Now please don't twist this around and try and say I think these are bad people because that would be the furthest from the truth. I continually say there is a proper place and time for that kind of behavior and I certainly feel Sparkle or similar events are the proper place. So an event such as Sparkle to me is the same thing as any other business convention. And believe me, the only people who care are the shop owners where you spend your money. Joe Public doesn't give a rip, Sparkle or the like can help advance the acceptance of TGs if their behavior is respectable. But TGs standing up peeing and being obnoxious in the ladies restrooms sure can hurt the community.

So I hope you see where I consider events like Sparkle and Pride type marches to be two totally different functions. Therefore what applies to one does not necessarily apply to the other.

Hugs,
Marsha

Getting the scared to stop being scared, I like that Mere. But there is more than one set of scared and I think you are ignoring the obvious. You are referring to closeted TG gals, but the reality is that society is also scared of us. So sending out closeted married TG gals if you can make them less scared, is only going to scare society more. I believe you are failing to see it is a two way street. I see your approach as trying to say to society look at how many of us there really are as if that is suppose to impress them. That is what I meant with the similarity to a petition. You are trying to show we have numbers to support our cause. And simple enough, I am saying no you don't, and the married closeted TG gals or career oriented singles, will not be there for you. Once again I don't see any benefit to our community unless they come out in a respectable manner. Anna's Sparkle, your Be All, and Georgia's Southern Comfort Conference are testaments to not all will come out respectably.

You and GS are major reasons I now live the life I do, so I have no dispute about how GS may have given you the strength to live your life as it should be. But you and I are TS choosing to transition. That is a big difference from a closeted CD that never leaves home or goes out only for Sparkle type events under the cloak of anonymity.

Hugs,
Marsha

*giggle*
thank you katie, I really needed that bit of humor today
blessings,

Wake up Anna, Pride parades are not on the top ten list of attended events and as I said most people are just going to get a quick viewing about the event on the news. I am telling you exactly what shows up on the news. I don't care what you see while participating in the event, because nobody else is seeing it. Besides, I am not saying these things are bad, just that they don't accomplish anything for the community. They are simply a means of "Preaching to the choir."

As for the standing up peeing, here is an excerpt that can be found on the website for Georgia's Southern Comfort Conference so please don't tell me it doesn't happen.

What is the restroom policy at the hotel?
Most importantly, we ask that you use common sense. Please use the restroom that is appropriate to the gender role you are presenting. When using the ladies room, please behave like a lady (no standing, please).

And here is the link for you to read it yourself: http://www.sccatl.org/FAQ[...]FAQ.htm

I have heard first hand accounts, from my dad, that many of the attendees at these TG events just can't be bothered with sitting to pee. Maybe your experience is with better behaved individuals, but that stuff happens and when it is seen by other guests, it can only say bad things.

As for me attending this stuff, I have absolutely no interest in going to those events. I attend local LGBT events here in Savannah on a regular basis. Pride is not the only LGBT organization in town, but they are definitely the more flamboyant one.

Hugs,
Marsha

And? I love going back and forth with you Anna because it truly highlights the cultural differences we clearly experience, sort of like the "dirt" topic awhile back. I went back and reread all my posts in this thread and found at least three instances where I clearly made a point to say that there is nothing wrong with what these gals are doing other than there is the proper place and time for such behavior. I also pointed out that Pride and Sparkle type events are the proper places. Did you read that because your response suggests I never said such things?

And although I said Pride participants were more flamboyant, I never said they were bad people. All I said is society doesn't see that as a good thing.

As far as being trouble and a snob, do you really think so? My success in life is from my confidence. I am not always right, nor do I see myself as being better than others. I can only talk about what has worked well for me in my life. If you want to call me trouble and a snob for sharing my experiences, have at it. I just believe you are either not reading everything I said, or you are reading too much into what I said. Either way I am glad to see my opinions are thought provoking.

Hugs,
Marsha

Hi SIsters,

I believe all the various spectrums of sisters, be they flamboyant or reserved, contribute greatly to our community.

For the more vocal (and visible) sisters, I used to be somewhat embarrassed by their behavior, but realized when I look back in time, they brought attention to the subject of being transgendered. Wether that attention was good or bad, I don't know. However, what it did for me was point out that I was not alone in my feelings. Somewhere in the world there were others who also had feelings inside that didn't map into the strict Male/Female gender map that society insists on. So awareness within the TS/TG/CD community (and those dealing with gender issues ) is one result of the "out there" sisters behaviors. Do I want to be a "Out there" flamboyant sister? No, but I do want to be the best sister I can be.

For the reserved sisters - There is an enigma here. If we are the best human beings we can be and through our actions bring familiarity as to what a transgendered person is, then people will begin to understand us. However, many of us are not in positions to acknowledge that we are somewhere in the TG spectrum. It was the Flamboyant sisters who paved the way for me to get enough courage to come out to all my neighbors, my best friend and his wife. All of them fully supported me, so I count myself very lucky indeed. In fact I didn't really have to explain what it meant to be transgendered, as most of them were already familiar with the concept.

So the flamboyant sister and the reserved sister are actually working together on their segment of society to bring about awareness, understanding and hopefully someday more wide-spread acceptance.

Hugz from an appreciative sister,
MichelleLynn

I think Pride parades are a brilliant way to express our freedom as human beings and everyone should feel free to take part and I certainly will at my local one in a couple of weeks.

I think its an awful shame to see so much bigotry within the trans community itself let alone what is directed from outside.

At the pride event I plan to walk hand in hand with my gay friend and my friend who will be a drag queen and we will demonstrate that it doesnt matter how different we all are we are all human beings and we can accept eachother.

I would just like to reiterate the point that I have nothing against the Pride parades or Sparkle type events. The original post was about Mere's Tribune question as to whether we needed to separate from Pride and LGBT and have our own parade. My comments were that to do so would not help our cause in anyway. Pride is Pride and that is fine, I don't have anything against the people who participate or attend the event. This thread got way off course, so far, that I had to defend what I didn't say. And to hear words such as bigotry brought into this thread was totally ridiculous. I read it as being directed at me even when I go to an all inclusive church and probably 75% of my friends are gay or lesbian and many of them avoid the Pride stuff just as I choose to do.
Hugs,
Marsha

p.s. Thank you Karen, at least someone understands what I was trying to say.

Marsha, I'm sorry you feel my comments were directed at you. I hear lots of bigoted comments from transgendered people in general. I nearly sent a PM to say my comment was in general but I thought I had better wait to see how it was received. I could of also made effort to make my statement clear but I didnt. Sorry
hugs
Penny
x

It looks like we will be getting a chance to see a Transgender Pride March in action come July 25th in Vancouver, B.C., Canada. So I hope everyone who followed this thread will watch for news and pictures related to this event and post links here. Here is a link about the upcoming event http://www.vancouvertransforum.com/
Hugs,
Marsha

My 2 cents worth...

I feel I can do more for our community by just blending in, acting civilized and "normal", and then, when "discovered", proving to others that we are not freaks, weirdos, etc., but just regular people like they are...working well thus far...

I dress appropriately for someone my age or status, do not get nutty in public, never go "off" on someone for any reason, and only answer questions about TG community that are asked of me...never overwhelming them with too much, only what they ask...I smile easily, am pleasant to be around, and try to always present my "best face"...

I side with Marsha in that the parades and events and such tend to draw too much negative attention to the community and only reinforce perception society already holds...but Rome wasn't built in a day...heck, when I was growing up, we had separate schools for blacks and whites...now we have a black president...so anything is possible...

And yes, there is divisiveness within our own community and that does not help anyone a bit!

Traci

Note: As I often do, I may have missed the point of this thread. If I have, please let me know.
**************************************
As far as I’m concerned, I personally don’t feel the need to push for any kind of separate TG parade. It’s a real area of controversy and I can see where there would be some difference of opinion.

I think the problem is a basic disconnect between two camps in the large umbrella known as “Transgender”. There is obviously a percentage of us who wish to be seen as happy, well-adjusted, assimilated women. I’d say, hopefully without correction, that most of us on this site fall into this category. But there is a second group. They seem to delight in “scaring the straights” and turning people’s perceptions on their heads. They wear strange over-the-top clothing, makeup, hair, etc. They do outrageous, sometimes disturbing acts.

I’ve been stealth for about five years. I enjoy being just another girl, I enjoy instantly being gendered female by people who meet me. So a couple of years ago, I was writing/directing/starring/managing in Tulsa Pride’s first trans day during Pride week. I felt that I had a responsibility to everyone who identified as TG. I tried to include everyone in the TG community who expressed interest with being involved in the festivities. As a result, I began having those TG folks “on the fringe” want to hang with me or talk to me, etc.

Now, as I said, I had no problem with trying to be mother to the entire TG family in Tulsa for this event, but three days later, during the Pride festival which was held at a large local park I saw a couple of these folks lifting up their skirts and dresses and showing their bulges underneath. I actively tried to avoid their eyes and somehow will myself to be invisible to them. It didn’t work. From across the park... “Hey girl!! Yoohoo!!” Even it the oppressive Tulsa heat of June, I felt suddenly twice as hot as the embarrassment heat crawled up the back of my neck. I could see people crane their heads to see who they were talking to. I was mortified until I realized that they either didn’t get it, or didn’t care.

Now I’ve come to this conclusion. I don’t need to feel bad about wanting to avoid those folks. In fact, I got a little angry. I work hard to maintain stealth in my everyday life. HRT, electrolysis, FFS, voice training, wardrobe, deportment. There’s a lot of money and effort tied up in it for me. When one person is so clueless or foolish to blow that up, my responsibility for “the community” ends and I have to look out for myself.

I think that as a community, we have to embrace these “shock troops” as one part of our community. But we have no responsibility to make our own lives more difficult and we have no responsibility to embrace these same people in the light of day. I, for one, am done feeling bad about any of it.

Zoey

Zoey, thank you so much for your interesting insight. Your example happens to be what I fear in this type of event. What really caught my attention is when you said "I was mortified until I realized that they either didn’t get it, or didn’t care." I have heard others describe similar scenes in that way. Gals standing up in the women's restroom, not bothering to shave, that type of public appearance. As you said, they either don't get it or don't care. And my problem with it is they don't care about not only themselves, but also the embarrassment they bring to our community.
Hugs,
Marsha

Anna, once again you are missing the whole concept of what I was trying to get across. I am not against any particular type of TG such as drag queens or whatever participating in the parade, I AM AGAINST THE PARADE! Yes, they do tend to attract the more flamboyant which I am not particularly a fan of, but that is not the point I am making here. I feel parades like this are in your face demonstrations that hurt more than help our cause. I have seen enough pictures and news clips of our local Pride parade to know I don't want to be associated with it in any way. Being in the same city is close enough for me.
Hugs,
Marsha

It's nice to know that the Tribune is getting attention! Just like my "Red Trannies" piece!

As Frank Zappa once said, "without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible."

Evolution or revolution?

I bear all responsibility for any errors in grammar, spelling, etc. Due to circumstances I was not able to proof the piece as I would have hoped. My apologies.

Toni and Marsha, I appreciate your comments. Do we really need such a day? That was the point of the whole article. I do think that raising awareness is important. But we know this already.

Thanks again!

Mere

Hi Meredith,

Do we need a TG Day? I wonder.

February is "Black History Month" in the US. I don't think I know a single African American who doesn't have very mixed feelings about it. If I can presume to speak for them, they seem too feel it's good because it acknowledges them and their contributions, but why "segregate" it to one month, and the shortest month at that.

I've participated in Pride events, even though I didn't really feel they were about me. Good fun and companionship but I always felt it was LGB(t) - I'm not a full member.

Would a TG Day be a sort of National Kite Flying Day or Bike to Work Day? A small note at the bottom of a page-a-day calendar to be tossed out in the morning?

As an aging (okay, old) activist from the 1960's, I don't see our cause as having the mass public appeal of the Civil Rights Movement, the Anti-War Movement, the Women's Liberation Movement or Environmental Movement. We just don't have the numbers...

Hope I'm wrong,
Melody

As I wrote in the piece, and as Marsha also mentioned, what are our numbers? There are far more than we know, so perhaps such a day would help those who are afraid will come forward.

I don't care for stats. There are more of us than anyone can ever imagine. So what would a phony survey prove?

Mere

Marsha, HOW can you describe Pride type parades as a protest march.....& have you ever BEEN to one, somehow i very much doubt that you have.We have them here in the UK in all the Major cities such as London, Manchester, Birmingham & they are anything BUT protests, more often than not they're a celebrationof how diverse life is. For Instance, " Sparkle" is such an event that has been going since 2005 and is now in its 6th year. It gets on average between about 5,000 - 10,000 peeps attending over the 2 days. Now are you going to describe THAT as a protest??. You're a pretty smart girl but in this instance maybe should've engaged brain before typing what you did.



Anna-Marie

This is not about gaining petition numbers or the like. This is about getting the scared to stop being scared.

If it wasn't for The Gender Society I wouldn't be out and proud now.

Mere

I agree with Marsha on this. For most of those that attend these are nothing more than a way to show themselves dressed in public. No real change is ever going to come from that. I don't realy beleave these are political at all. The news & the world only seem to see those that are dressed like clowns & make being TG a peverted joke.
Look at TV. Being gay is still mostly a joke. Thier goofy sissies or flaming faggots. Yet they look like the gender they are.
We dress different, look different, & act different. Since history began man has hurt, killed, or just laughed at anything different.

Marsha, you cannot judge pride parades & the like just by watchin local news. You have to actually BE there to experience what actually happens. And as for your quote about "Pride marches or parades" being a protest, .Are you gonna tell me that the likes of London & Manchester Pride's are a protest??well that, to be honest is a complete joke

So 5 - 10,000 for an event is nothing? Sparkle started off small ( 5 - 10,000) but this its 6th year & you can probably treble that amount.
well i'm sorry but what would you know seeing as you never go to anything. Your crack about TG's standing up peeing & being obnoxious in ladies restrooms is WAY wide of the mark. Again,how would you know about these things if you never go. Your holier than thou attitude is really quite farcical, maybe you ought to get off your soapbox, stop preaching to everybody & actually get out there & experience one. Then i would have a lot more respect for you hon.



Anna-Marie
xxxxxxxx

Mere,

Pooh on you! LOL J/K.

I was preparing a piece on TG behavior in public, based on news articles, when I stumbled in here for a rest and scanned the site. I have not read the articles through yet but I may have to dump my files and forget it. On the other hand, I might end up with a third piece to add to the fray.

So WHAT if Prides are more flamboyant......does that make them Wrong & those who attend them any the less Human. You know your trouble.....you're a snob.

Anna-Marie

Believe what you like Marsha, i'm not really bothered in the Slightest. And had you made that " Piece of Dirt" crack about Lockerbie in Scotland then you'd have been lynched!.

I have said what im wanted to say & am gonna let the matter drop cos life is too god-damned short to Argue about things like this.

Anna-Marie
xxxxxxxx

Hi Penny,

Good for you, hope you have a great time.

And for those who are ashamed and disgusted at what goes on in Pride parades, I can only point the the Shriners and Chinese New Year parades. Lot's of silliness and what would be thought of as bad behavior under other circumstances. Gatherings like parades are there so people can have fun and get out of their normal ruts. Lighten up!

Best,
Melody

Though I agree with Marsha, I would still like to go just for the fun of it.

Once again, you're talking complete & utter cr@p Marsha. You've never actually been to one of these things & yet you are on youtsoap-box preaching to everyone that pride events are a bad thing. Ok, some of the things you mention might actually happen but if you haven't been to a pride thing, HOW do you know????. I have been to a few and i have never seen the things you say you have. Hon, if you have nothing good to say about 2peeps attending these events then dont say ANYTHING. you're a pretty intelligent girl so how about using some of that "intelligence" to better educate yourself.



Anna Marie