Josie pointed out some good stuff in her Tribune article this month about culture, counterculture, and subculture. I think the dictionary descriptions of each are easy enough to understand, however I don't think everyone see's each applicable in the same way. There is no doubt that the line between each is blurry at best.

Josie said in her article that "We all came together for Pride Day" and I can't disagree more with that statement. There are plenty of others in the LGBT community like myself that want nothing to do with Pride events. Yes I see them as in your face protests, therefore it is counterculture in my opinion. I know others feel we should have the right to do whatever, that is fine but it remains counterculture and there will always be a large segment of society outspoken against us. If instead of Pride specific events, the events were held in conjunction with other community events, then it would be a cultural expression. Josie has her right to want to be counterculture, I just don't see that as helping our overall acceptance into society. I also think it is easy for her to say that as a lesbian, but TGs have an enormous way to go before we are on the same playing field as the gay and lesbian community.

Hugs,
Marsha

I don't know, I've associated myself with counter culture for most of my life. Just your basic pot-smoking activist, protesting inequality. An avant garde theatre chick.

I don't have a big problem with Pride events, I can't help it. When you look out on tens of thousands of people who are part of the LGBT community or allies it makes me feel very humble and very grateful and loved. I feel that maybe just then, at least for that much time, we were united, we were one. And this whole community has been plagued by in-fighting, fracturing friendships and lives along the way. I think that, like Scrooge, if we were able to remember Pride and keep it holy (or let's say "sacred") perhaps we could draw closer and closer to that little pocket utopia of gays, lesbians and trans folk all working together and helping each other with our problems.

Yes, I wrote a post about being outted at a Pride event. It was not a great scene, but on the whole? I think Pride is an incredibly powerful statement of togetherness. The message as far as I'm concerned is "This is my sister. I can give her sh*t, but some outsider tries to hurt her and I will go megaton on his ass."

So, are we counter-culture? Subculture? Personally, I feel better thinking of myself and our community as counter-culture. Why? Because as counter-culture, we are vigilant, we are ready for a fight and make no mistake, the fights are coming and they will be ugly.

Z

Zoey, I agree with much of what you are saying about Pride giving a sense of solidarity and probably in many cases, a sense of releasing the fear of being all alone. As you put it, it is ok for us to beat up on each other, but no one else better because we will unite and fight any battle that comes our way. I think we all want the same goal but we see different means of achieving those goals. Yes I totally agree that events like Pride increase the solidarity in our community, however I also see it increasing the solidarity against us forcing us to fight those battles you mentioned. I believe in assimilation and see counterculture as a desire to not assimilate. So we will likely see some of those here arguing for Pride and the counter culture, arguing that the immigrants need to learn to speak English. It is exactly the same thing and actually they are even known to hold their parades or protests to show solidarity. We pick and choose our fights and that is normal. Life goes on everyday, a parade ends and everyone goes home. Have your 2 or 3 day Pride festival, there are 362 other days to do something more productive, like setting a good example in everyday life.
Hugs,
Marsha

marsha, I really like the point you make about assimilation, but I don't see a pride event so much as a counterculture event so much as an awareness raising and solidarity event, not dissimilar to say, a breast cancer awareness march. in my experience with pride events, there are more "straight" people in attendance than lgbt, though, of course, local news editors faced with vying for viewer's attention in 30 second pieves, will almost always go for the "colorful" video footage/

there is one thing I disagree with in the article, and that is"most would say counterculture is a group that wants to undermine the mainstream" yes, a counterculture has ideals that differ from the mainstream, I don't think that has to be read as "undermine". while lgbt is easily a counterculture in a sense, it is also a subculture. does anyone here have a desire for the whole world to be lgbt? does anyone here enjoy, say..ice cream? chocolate? computers? music? access to healthcare? other than religious extremists and xenophobes(is that really mainstream?), I find it difficult to believe we undermine mainstream society by our existence.

Thanks Toni. I know exactly what you are saying about it being more about awareness like breast cancer awareness and that is very valid. It is also like most advertising where you might wonder why the brand of beer everyone drinks always advertises when you would think they wouldn't need to. The fact is they need to advertise or people would leave their brand to try other brands of beer. Along with that you will find a level of consistency, and it becomes more of a reminder. I think that is what is lacking in a Pride event. Yes the placards with "equal rights for all" bring attention and remind society we do not have equal rights, but the message is not consistent And what I mean by that is there is no frequency beyond the annual event, therefore the message is lost shortly after the event. In my opinion, that makes the parade or celebration, more of a protest.

You mentioned in my other thread that a TG university doesn't really fit my concept of assimilation and I went on to say I felt it did because it conveys that we also see education as being important. With that education we would be able to have the knowledge to work right alongside the rest of society. Again, I saw the idea as plausible, but I think I would stick with one of the fine universities in Georgia given the choice. I'm not always great with words but I hope I am starting to convey "consistency" as a factor in assimilation. When in Rome, do as the Romans. Everyone has their own strenghts and weak points, but when we make an effort to blend in I believe most people will look past our differences. I believe the counterculture come across as saying "I'm going to do it my way and I don't care what you think." So in that respect I believe I have been consistent with my view on this topic. This is probably the number one issue that divides our community. I happen to be vocal and share my opinion on the subject. I just want everyone on the otherside of the topic to know I do not dislike them in anyway because of the view they take. I think both sides should be allowed to be expressed and in the end, we do both want the same thing, and that is for all of us to be treated fairly and accepted in society.

Hugs,
Marsha

I mostly agree with you, but I think you misunderstand the concept of counterculture. I don't think there is something called "the counterculture" . there is no monolithic counterculture group who does what they want and doesn't care what anyone thinks. there are a multitude of countercultures, and if you think globally, there is also more than one "mainstream". as "westerners" we tend to think of western culture as the be all and end all of culture, but this is hardly the case. even western music is radically different from music in other cultures. indian music, for example is not based on our western 12 tone octave, hence much of it cannot be played on a piano, as the notes on a piano are lacking many of those needed.
if we are to "do as the romans do in rome", then "we" need to forget about transitioning, gay marriage, and a plethora of other social norms of the mainstream. this by definition, makes us a counterculture, with associated subcultures. and I think many of us DO care what society thinks, or we wouldn't be fighting for our rights as humans in this regard.
I think the tg university is an interesting idea, but counterproductive in many ways, not only in the sense of segregation, but also in the dynamic of learning with and from all walk of life. I mentioned MIT somewhere, several prominent (in the world of physics) transgender physicists got where they are because of institutions like MIT. I use physics as an example because it is a subject I enjoy very much. the resources of a university like MIT are invaluable. not only because they have cutting edge technology available, but because when people from all walks of life work together, they become greater than the sum of their parts

I like forum threading with you marsha, you make me think about things I might not have otherwise considered

I take you back to the very first paragraph in this thread.

Josie pointed out some good stuff in her Tribune article this month about culture, counterculture, and subculture. I think the dictionary descriptions of each are easy enough to understand, however I don't think everyone see's each applicable in the same way. There is no doubt that the line between each is blurry at best.

I guess what I'm trying to get across is how much do we ask of society at one time? I believe we can succeed in gaining societies acceptance through incremental gains. I see that as a subculture approach. I believe telling society they need to accepts us no matter how we look is an all or nothing approach, and therefore a counterculture approach. Once again I want the same thing as everyone else here, but I believe it will take baby steps to get there, whereas I believe some are impatient.
Hugs,
Marsha

Hiya Marsha xxx, I understand your approach to incremental gains of acceptance in society, but for me its slightly different. Personally, I am not looking for acceptance as that would suggest I am dancing to someone else’s tune. When I join the pride march it will be to show that I have the freedom to live as I chose regardless if anyone accepts or doesn’t.

I have to say that when I hear people say that transgender people should behave in a particular way for the good of the community is just as bad as the people who think transgendered people should be burnt at the stake. If we all had to behave in a particular way then what kind of prison sentence is that? Its not about the community or what anyone else thinks, its about being yourself and having the freedom to live so. I would never tell anyone that they had to behave in a different way unless they were doing something which affected me specifically.

Not a personal attack on you Marsha, I am just airing my opinion which is different hugs xxxx
Love
Penny
x

Our opinions on this differ Penny, but I definitely respect your view.
Lots of hugs,
Marsha

There you are Anna. I'll have you know that I started this thread with you in mind. I am perfectly fine with you or anyone else attending pride events and I am happy you enjoy yourself while participating. This was a new topic brought up in the latest Tribune and it deserved discussion because it brought up looking at Pride from a different angle. In this case, culture, counterculture and subculture. Yes I have been consistent with my view on Pride, but it is not just my view that matters, Zoey, Toni, and Penny added a number of good remarks in their replies.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me. One thing I do attempt to do is bridge the gap between TSs who have gone stealth and have nothing to do with the TG community, and TGs of all labels that come here or attend events such as Sparkle or Pride. There are reasons why stealth TS's don't want anything to do with the community and the number one reason is they just want to get on with their life and be treated normal. It is quite apparent in these discussion that many have no desire to live a normal life, and I don't need to hear the what is normal comments. Everyone knows darn well what is normal.

Hugs,
Marsha

I want to get on with my life and be treated normal...period...I choose to lead by example...if the world cannot accept me for being me, it is their loss...I will survive...

Traci xxx

Hiya,

Marsha, I wish to discuss one of your statements...

"It is quite apparent in these discussion that many have no desire to live a normal life, and I don't need to hear the what is normal comments. Everyone knows darn well what is normal."

If you made that statement with the meaning of normal being one persons perception of normal can be totally different from another's, then I agree with what you said because im sure there are a lot of people who do not aspire to your perception of what is normal as I am sure is the same with me. I believe people try to live to a standard that they consider normal, however, if someone lives a life that they do not consider normal then I will agree that they do not have a desire to live a normal life.

love
Penny
x

Very true words, Karen. The press, as always, will be the press. They will always push the juicy, sexy angle of every piece. With us, it means a game of "find the freaks." That is probably why so many people think that these events are nothing but watching the strange and colorful animals with their strange mating dances and their amazing plummage.

Have you EVER seen the very successful gay banker with his almost as successful restaurant owner/partner in the first car, waving at folks while wearing a nice shirt and a tie? Of course not. Have you seen all of the TS girls, walking down the street just looking like...well...women walking down the street? Of course not.

So what does the news cameras flash on? Go-go boys wearing underware, cowboy hats and nipple clamps; A six-and-a-half foot cross-dresser, decked from head to foot as Dorothy from "The Wizard of Oz", complete with a basket and a small dog: Or, two lesbians wearing leather, sporting cute butchy haircuts, walking hand in hand.

I often wonder if homophobes run the TV stations until I realize that they have a formula in place for Pride events. They think what they are doing works and they aren't going to change that. They are whores, after all.

*hugs*

Zoey

PS- How about we take the vitriol down a couple levels?

Thank you Karen and Zoey, that is exactly it. Yes I know there are a tremendous number of outstanding men and women participating in events like Pride. Most of my friends are LGBT. The problem is how these events are portrayed by the media and I don't see it changing anytime soon. They search out the most outlandish and basically show them off to the untold numbers of viewers. In my opinion it gives our community a black eye and that is why I choose not to participate. The premise is good, unfortunately that is not what is being conveyed to the masses.
Hugs,
Marsha

There are several factors in play here. Firstly, you have human beings displaying their freedom and there is nothing wrong with that. Secondly, you have the media homing in on the most flamboyant characters, we all know they dont report the truth, they only report sensationalised stories which may or may not resemble any or part of the truth. The only agenda the media have is to increase their readership.

You might say the pride events dont do anything for us as a community but I think they do a lot in our favour. Firstly, they help desensetise people to those who are different. Also, when people get to know you they will realise you are a much better person compared to the way we are protrayed by the media and they will respect and like you so much more.

For me, in a few years when I go to a pride event, hopefully, no one will realise i am trans and prolly jump to the conclusion I am a lesbian. I see no reason why an acomplished transwoman shouldnt go to a pride event and remain stealth. If a transsexual avoids gay pubs and pride events like the plague then I would think they have some issues themselves to deal with.

Love
Penny
x

I can go along with a lot of what you have said Penny. The idea that Pride type events can help desensitize people is a fresh idea and could definitely have some validity. One thing you said that I have mixed feelings on is people getting to know you and realizing you are a much better person than what is portrayed in the media. I know for my own experience I have really opened the eyes of numerous people who had thought all TGs were drag queens, but on the otherhand, people avoid the gal who comes to church looking like a hooker. So I am thinking if you look like the gals that make it to the news, you end up not helping the community, or yourself.
Hugs,
Marsha

"There are plenty of others in the LGBT community like myself that want nothing to do with Pride events."


Marsha, instead of your non-stop Bitching about pride events why dont you leave people that like them to enjoy them for what they are?....a fun day out! . Ok, you HATE them.......you've made that perfectly clear, but there's still no need to look down on them as though they're a bad thing. I myself have been to a few and had a great time & i bet i'm not the only one here that feels that way either


Anna-Marie\);

"There are plenty of others in the LGBT community like myself that want nothing to do with Pride events."


Marsha, instead of your non-stop Bitching about pride events why dont you leave people that like them to enjoy them for what they are?....a fun day out! . Ok, you HATE them.......you've made that perfectly clear, but there's still no need to look down on them as though they're a bad thing. I myself have been to a few and had a great time & i bet i'm not the only one here that feels that way either


Anna-Marie\);

Anna I love you like a sister but I kind of think Marsha's right. She never said she hated them. Just that they don't realy do us any good. The press only seem to talk about the most flashy crossdressers.
If I had someone to go with I'd go. But only so I could get all dressed up & go out without being afraid.
To many people see the brightly dressed man in fishnets & just shake thier heads.