KATIE

2 options that come to mind , is www.nochex.com , and world pay
we r not the 1st community to have this issues with paypel , hope this helps , hugs christina xxxxx

Katie,
First let me start off by thanking you personally for what you have done here with TW. I don't know where I'd be without TW, or the wonderful loving friends I have made.

YES, LET US CARRY ON!!! Katie, what can I do to help? I am here for you.

Yet, are we surprised? This world of ours is definitely taking a shift to the right (never a good shift, in my opinion). At the risk of sounding like a locker room speech in a bad sports movie, by fighting we do have everything to gain. How can we publicize this action of theirs? What recourses do we have? I don't deal with PayPal myself (my wife does) so I don't know their quirks.

Right now there are a few ideas I have - boycott PayPal and let them know why, publicize their actions, and let's start looking into alternative ways to keep this going.

This is right off the top of my head now, girls. I'm actually on my way to work when I saw this. I FOR ONE DO NOT INTEND TO QUIT. We have come too far.

That's it - Meredith the Anarchist is clicking into gear. Katie, we'll get through this.

By the way, Katie, come here and let me give you a hug. It's okay to be sad. But YOU ARE NOT ALONE!
Meredith

well, now would be a good time for 23000 members to email, write to them AND call them and explain in no uncertain terms why they've misjudged the site, and why sexual preference is nothing to with the nature of this site.

A petition may also be useful.

Who knows, if their switchboards and mailboxes here in the UK get jammed, they may even sit up and take notice.

I would strongly advise that you don't use your paypal email address when you send them email though!

I am so mad right now. The ignorance of some people is incredible. It's about time people made sure they knew all the facts before passing judgement. (Unless of course, this problem arose because of a decisionmaker with a grudge. Some right-wing christian fundamentalist (you know, the sort that believes catholics are evil and the only real bible is the king james bible - each word of which being god spoken truth to be taken literally and has beliefs on alternative lifestyles akin to Hitlers, or maybe some other form religious nut.)

I am so mad right now I could spit tacks! a few calls to the ACLU maybe. I am sure a lwayer would jar them to their senses espescially when they realize how wrong they are about this site and that for all intensive purposes what they are doing amounts to no more than Discrimination.
Boiling here......................

Katie I have read the Paypal acceptible use policy and have emailed Paypal to ask if they are so strict why they allow buyers and sellers to use paypal to buy and sell sexually orientated equipment - a search for 'dildo' on ebay resulted in 34 items all able to use Paypal. Smacks of double standards - Ebay is a Paypal company

I say all the 23000+ members should write a letter of complaint online to paypal - soon clog up their suystem - unlikely but power to the people.

Don't give up Katie, we can pay another way. The people at Paypal are such idiots anyway they can't have much of a future trying to run a business.
I would ask them to clarify exactly how their policy has been violated. This site is certainly not a sexually oriented service.
Please don't be sad Katie, we all still love you.
xx

I realy hope you can set up another account. You know I'm willing to do a little more. I know I won't be using paypal anymore if I don't have to. Stupidty comes with a great price. F**K I'm pissed. I just found all of you, I'm not going to lose you. I have no one else I can talk to, not for real. I beleave in you Katie I'm sure you'll come up with something. All I can think of now are cuss words so I'll sign off.
Karen

Katie,

PayPal must have forgotten the age old saying "Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned" so as Churchill once said "We shall never surrender"

This is a blatant and deliberate act of discrimination against ourselves and could set a precedent for other minority groups on the Internet who, like us, use PayPal to try and stay afloat.
As you quite rightly say we are not a porn site, neither are we obscene (unless your definition of obscene is seeing a ladies ankle). However, we do have a Hormone forum which could be classed by PayPal as Medical Usage, there is the Fantasies forum which could be classed as "descriptions of intercourse, masturbation etc" and unfortunately there are some people on here who do have some, what can you call them? Less than family viewing pictures. Nothing that the normal person on the street would find offensive or obscene but someone at PayPal obviously does.

Having just read their Mature Audiences Policy (for Europe anyway) it is non specific to say the least but the final paragraph leaves us with little room. By stating they "will not include sexual preferences or viewpoints as a factor" they in effect say that they themselves stand as judge and jury over what is acceptable to them.

I think our best course of action is to boycott PayPal wherever possible (makes things tough when using EBay I know), pass the word around other like minded sites that this is their attitude towards our community and try to find another option for payments.

There really is only one word that can sum up my feelings right now: 7 letters, starts with F and is a plural.

But we will prevail as long as we stand together on this. PayPal or no PayPal we will find a way.

love and hugs

Alex
xxxxx

Katie,when christina told me last night what paypal had done i was y livid..in fact i was lost for words that they'd done something so disgraceful and damned unfair too.One thing that's really p*ssed me off is why they waited til now to do it,surely they knew what they were getting in to.Now is the time for all us s to stand together to help TW survive.There are bound to be other options around so lets all put our heads together and see what we can come up with.i'm inclined to go round to paypal with my uzi.....and shoot the lot of them(only joking!)If ever TW needed it's members to rally round and help it's now.Girls..."YOUR T-WEB NEEDS YOU"

Katie,when christina told me last night what paypal had done i was y livid..in fact i was lost for words that they'd done something so disgraceful and damned unfair too.One thing that's really p*ssed me off is why they waited til now to do it,surely they knew what they were getting in to.Now is the time for all us s to stand together to help TW survive.There are bound to be other options around so lets all put our heads together and see what we can come up with.i'm inclined to go round to paypal with my uzi.....and shoot the lot of them(only joking!)If ever TW needed it's members to rally round and help it's now.Girls..."YOUR T-WEB NEEDS YOU"

too damn right alex...we all have to stand up and be counted..and show those idiots at paypal that we will NOT be messed with,cos right now "our trannyweb(and katie) needs us! love one VERY p*ssed off anna-maria

WELL SAID SHAN!!..love anna-maria xxxx

Whilst I understand why people feel the need to boycott paypal, is this really going to make a difference? It may make you feel better for all of five minutes but then what? . How many members do they have? .. Millions, and how many of us are there here? And no it's not 20,000 we all know how the numbers work.

Even if we all give up using paypal they wouldn't even notice!

But I have to ask what has prompted Paypal's decision? Is it a change of policy to blanket ban any site with certain words in the title or has someone actually visited the site to check up on the content. And no, I don't believe for a minute that it is deliberate descrimination on their part, although that's what it may feel like to us. Paypal along with the credit card companies are under extreme pressure to clean up their act following recent accusations that they have been happy to profit from pay sites offering all kinds of unsavoury material (quite rightly so) and it looks like we have just been caught in that net.

Unfortunately now and then the content of the forums and some of the profile pics that slipped through the net have been less than exemplary and I could see how a casual viewer who knew nothing about the transgender issue would draw their own conclusions. (And no, this isn't me having a pop at Katie who does a brilliant job, these things are almost impossible to police, see previous forum posts) But it would be nice to know just what factors have contributed to this withdrawal of service, hopefully they might be so kind as to tell us.

Cerys xx
(Not holding her breath for an answer)

Very true Cerys.

it would be nice to hear from them as to why they made this decision and why it took them the amount of time it has done to make it. Suely when the account was opened someone must have checked up on it so why wasn't it said then. But I can't see then telling us, its like a credit agency don't have to tell you why you've been refused its up to you to ask (and pay) for the credit report file.

I think Cerys may be right that we've got caught in the dragnet around the more unsavoury element of the internet as ISP's, credit card company's and other organisations try to ensure they can not be held responsible for what is on the net.

Maybe we should do some housekeeping and tighten up the monitoring to try and make sure the less savoury material gets cleaned up to try and prevent a reoccurrance in the future. Might mean losing some of the forums (like Fantasies for example), make sure all pictures are suitable and ensuring there is a clearly worded disclaimer on the front page covering our backs in some way.

I'm not advocating censorship as we are all adult enough to make our own minds up about suitability but we have to be aware that some people will find some of the material on this site distateful and obscence and will try to shut us down. I think we need to have a clear policy as to what is acceptable on this site and that needs to be displayed in a prominent position so there is no doubt where we stand and what we represent in the future.

Alex
xxxx

very well put alex, i completely agree.
xx

I've been reading all these ideas, so now it's time to sit down and decide how we're going to approach the situation. I'm not going to take up any time right now with possible plans - since it will take too long - but I would like to propose a couple of us getting together and drawing up a program. I would like to be part of it since I have been saving the suggestions given and how to possible either combine them or use each individually. I don't have a solid answer, so I'm asking if anyone wants to form such a committee. Who knows - it could all blow over quicker than we image and we'll be just fine. Yet, I'd like to be prepared?

"This is the music of a people who will not be slaves again"

Alex,the one thing that sticks in my mind is why paypal waited til now to close the account.why did they not do it sooner cos surely they knew what they were getting into.Something does'nt quite add up here and i think you hit the nail on the head.It is important that we show katie that we are all behind her 100 %,cos it upset me to hear she was so sad over this...KEEP YA HEAD UP KATIE!!...love anna-maria xx

I am trying to do my part. I am now a paying member, and I cancelled my PayPal account. If there is any more I can do to help, let me know!

It sucks what PayPal has done. I am a member of several other forums, covering several subjects. There are alot of references to drugs, violence, and all sorts of other illeagal activities. But no one cares about that!

It is a bummer that we live in a world of double strandards, but what can ya do?

Jaimie

I'm a bit calmer now. I had just got home from work when I read Katies post. I don't know anything about these matters. So I won't be giving ideas. I logged in at paypal they claim to have 40 million accounts. If we all quit they wouldn,t evan know it. No complaint department, so I couldn't do that. There are some very nasty web sites that take credit cards. So something can be done. Oh at paypal my TW account is still active. If Katie's not getting the money they better not touch it.
Karen

Thanks a lot jaimie for becoming a paying member.We could do with more like you here.....good on ya !! lovbe anna-maria xxx

I have gone to all the forums on craiglist, where I am fairly well known and have so far prompted over 30 letters to paypal re this matter....so I am right there with you Tiina..its time to rattle the cage a little and let them know the rules of the "Girls of St. Trannyweb"

while i think paypal are just being plain daft i can't say this is a total suprise, having failed to censor the internet directly various pressure groups are going for the finance houses, and it looks like we have been caught in corporate paranoia.

Whats metacharge?

i'm not 100% sure when my own membership is up for renewal and have never seen a renewal email notice, but i think something on it about this 'problem' and other ways to pay is a good idea.

Persoanlly i'm past the point of caring what shows up on my bank account statement, i realise for some *that* is not an option.

TW is about the only site with this scope and range which isn't backed by smut, this is worth keeping.

And having recently seen some business web hosting packages.. gulp.. I dread to think what this site much actually cost to run. Katie ya one in a million, if me wins the lottery (i wish) this site is on the list of benefactors.

Along with anyone whom can teach me the language i murder on a regular basis.

if i can help i will xxx

i'm not sure what i could do to help katie,but i'd be willing to give it a try if it helps you....and TW.love anna-maria xxxx

It's nice to know that metacharge has turned out to be a useful service for T-web.

I'm liking the trannython idea, but still wondering what exactly a trannython would be. Any ideas?

Hi Girls,

I just recently upgraded my subscription using Metacharge, and it was quite easy. The only caution, for those who do not want a paper trail , is the description of the credit card charge reads "Trannyweb Subscription". This is not a problem for me., However, we may want to see it METACHARGE would adjust the standard description for those who would have a problem with it.

Again, thank you girls for a warm, wonderfully diverse, and supportive community!!!!

Hugz,
Michelle oxoxoxo...

PS-

Hi Katie and All,
Good news...... During the actual METACHARGE process, the Metacharge confirmation window comes up and says MC-Kendall Manning and "Trannyweb subscription". Hovever, In checking my credit card statement on line, it only reads "misc. charges" and does not reference TW in the description. Sorry for the confusion.

Hugz and support for TW,

Michelle Lynn

You couldn't be more right Tiina.
Karen

I just looked to see who this Tippy is. You are one of a kind. Thanks for the smile
Karen

Please don't go ballistic at what I am about to say. It is nothing more than a legal fiction for purposes of getting legal pressure put on PayPal in the United States of America.

Alex,
It may be a useful legal fiction to go with the concept of TW being a porn site. In the United States, censorship of pornography was stomped on fairly hard some years ago. As Tom Lehrer wrote "...for filth, I'm glad to say, is in the mind of the beholder. When correctly viewed, everything is lewd. I can tell you things about Peter Pan and The Wizard of Oz is a dirty old man..." Discrimination violating the Second Amendment could be construed as a Federal crime here....Freedom of The Press. This actually might get the ACLU involved since it is discriminating based on sexual preference. I think that PayPal would prefer to duck such an uproar and reverse it's position of autorectocephalogy. This issue would revolve around being able to show that non-TG sites with similar "violations" were not cancelled. If anyone finds such evidence, please email me the site URL and I will see about prodding the ACLU. Having parts of TW be located in the US helps us.

Hopefully this will not become an issue but this is an excerpt from Metacharge's site:

"What goods and services can I sell?
A You can sell physical and digital (tangible and intangible) goods and services. The only current exceptions are adult online content (pornographic imagery), multi level marketing and businesses of a legally dubious nature. High risk merchants (gaming, travel and online pharmacies) please review our high risk merchant policy before applying."

While it is tempting to not deal with the issue of PayPal, are we avoiding a battle that will have to be fought later anyway? Should we be thinking about it even if not putting a major part of our energy into it?

do you know something mand...that's a bl**dy good idea.I wonder why no-one's thought of it before.Suggest the idea to katie and ask her what she thinks.I for one,think it's a great idea...lets go for it! We may well not get anything but you don't know until you try..Love anna-maria xxxx

It may be a useful legal fiction to go with the concept of TW being a porn site. In the United States, censorship of pornography was stomped on fairly hard some years ago. As Tom Lehrer wrote "...for filth, I'm glad to say, is in the mind of the beholder. When correctly viewed, everything is lewd. I can tell you things about Peter Pan and The Wizard of Oz is a dirty old man..." Discrimination violating the Second Amendment could be construed as a Federal crime here....Freedom of The Press. This actually might get the ACLU involved since it is discriminating based on sexual preference. I think that PayPal would prefer to duck such an uproar and reverse it's position of autorectocephalogy. This issue would revolve around being able to show that non-TG sites with similar "violations" were not cancelled. If anyone finds such evidence, please email me the site URL and I will see about prodding the ACLU. Having parts of TW be located in the US helps us.

Good legal fiction though that is, I'm afraid it is fatally flawed.

The American Paypal is the big cheese, so to speak, but Paypal UK is registered as a company in itself, as it has to follow different rules.

As for that clause in Metacharges policy, well, while metacharge is a far more grown-up company than paypal, I can now seewhat paypal was looking at, and while I feel they were objecting to the problem, rather than what the site is really about, it's still there, and it wouldn't be to much of a stretch of the imagination to see the same problem arising again in the future. It may not, but unless we somehow deal with the issues we have, as gloria mentioned, we may still.

It still strikes me that the problem is not the funding mechanisms, they can be fixed. The basic problem as Katie hinted is the simple lack of fully paid up members. What we need are suggestions as to how we can coax, cajole, or convince the casual passer-through to stick around and then pay up.



The proper marketing based approach is to identify just what the customer's "needs" are and then to find the most attractive method of fulfilling them.

Do casual visitors appreciate the real benefits of membership?
Do basic members appreciate what they can get from upgrading and just how little it costs?

How do we sell the real long-term effects of membership to casual browsers without the site reeking of heavy selling, it's fine balance. We need to think out of the box, the above is my first effort at coming up with a new angle. Somebody must have some other ideas. Perhaps we all need to get more professional about selling this thing if we want it to survive.

Cerys
(Tranny Ad Exec)

to have the site not reek of heavy selling. Well, that's easy, in theory.

All the forums and facility only available to full members needs to be completely hidden from the basic membership so that basic members don't feel left out when they click on a topic at the bottom of the page to be told that they aren't privelidged enough.

At the same time, basic members need to know the full scope of whats availiable through full membership, and how useful it is (a counter for the number of threads in full members would be cool or some such), or a full member in a full members forum could decide by checking a box if they would like to make a particular thread viewable to basic members, though basic members couldn't post on it, just to offer a preview of what its about. Only a few basic ideas there, some of which are bad, but that sort of thing.

The hard part then comes with promoting full membership on the site in such a way that it isn't imposing, or intimidating. Very hard.

One definate suggestion I would like to make, is that with a banner at the top AND the bottom of the screen, would it be an idea to add a banner promoting full membership to the rotation, which only shows up once in a blue moon? T-Web spends a lot of time (and quite rightly so!) promoting sponsors' products and services, but there doesn't seem to be anything even slightly interactive promoting its own, with the exception of th occasional mesage about not having access, which are easily avoided.

Is there any value in "teasing" potential members by letting them have a taste of what full membership brings for a very limited time. Or perhaps allowing them to post 1 picture in the hope that they'll get a taste for it and be willing to pay to post more. If we hide stuff from potential members will they know what they are missing?

Cx

I wasn't goiny to post this. But since it's a part of this site I don't see anything wrong with it. It can be used to pay for membership. For those who don't have or can't get a credit card.It can also be used to make a donations if some can afford it. Just write donation in memo so Katie will know.


Karen

Cerys,

Seems to me that the people here are our greatest asset and attraction. Ma;ybe we should focus on selling that, and the quality of site we want to have. "family values" or whatever we want to call it. friendship. understanding. support. caring. knowledge. advice. truth/facts vs myth., we should maybe all start going "get a room" when chat gets seamy. have an introductory email for new members about what TW is about and how to behave.
that might cut 80% ofthe problems right there.
Anyway, I'm falling asleep. out of brain cells. tommorow ill see if i just made sense or not.
Hugs.

i think that's a great idea wendy, an introductory email when people register, with a few basic do's and dont's.
policies have to be clear.
xx

Letter could even have an "I agree to follow site rules of behavior" to reply to, to activate membership. It could be done in 5-10 min via email, i have joined many sites with similar membership activations via email reply.

that's a GOOD idea wendy,would it take much setting up? Love anna-maria xxxxxxx

If you get an email with a simple "I agree to terms of use" type statement no body is ever going to click "no" are they? We may have covered out backsides legally but the problem comes with those people who have said they will agree to those terms who then deliberately flout them. Are we actually prepared to get tough and throw those people off?

And who is going to be the arbiter of what crosses the line? Blatant nudity is obvious but what about things like the "tranny fantasy" forum threads that go very near the knuckle .. who decides, and how do you assure that the policies are applied consistently and are not just one persons whim or taste? I'm not saying it's impossible, just playing the "advocatus diaboli".

Cerys x

True Story..I belong to CDA(crossdressers anonymous). Last night A guy calling himself wildman posted a want ad seeking TV for fun & sex. His membership lasted all of an hour before he was barred. Then all members recieved email saying why. Every post goes out to every member which is a pain. As wild man & CDA bickerd back & forth. My email filled up. New comers are tracked & rule violations are delt with fast. They get 2 chances thats all. There membership is small still. But get newcomers everyday.
But that is when they should be watched.
Karen

Just an idea but how about some form of publicity at sparkle in june ok i no its a way off but its a thought

Tiina's right. The cost would also be very high. I'm sure there was a sexual content claus in the contract. Since they are a private org it would be allmost impossible to win.
Karen