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Or Not Great Tranny Shopping!

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  • 734
    Hi all!

    Whilst this post may be applicable to all, I appreciate that its responses from the UK that I'm seeking. [I've been dithering about whether I should post in the UK forum] its a UK discrimination thing, I guess.

    Maybe I'd got complacent. I know I look predominantly male at the moment, though with some differences. [I appreciate I'm yet to get a decent photo up here, take it from me - or www.myspace.com/kelso1962 - I don't look like my avatar!], but I've shopped for female clothing in every leading store this country has. I've never had a problem. I've been welcomed, staff have always been friendly and changing facilities have never been a war zone.

    A couple of weeks ago I went to my local New Look to find a pair of jeans, Size 10 must be damned popular as it took ages to find a pair I liked and that fit into my price range [ie cheap!]. I went to the changing room and the girl who was controlling the room looked at me in total confusion. A supervisor was also there and said 'I'm sorry, men aren't allowed in the changing rooms'. She then noticed my breasts and got really confused. She ummed and arred but, after some obvious internal conflict, decided her original statement was valid.

    I was actually speechless. [yeah, ok, its not so far fetched as it sounds!], I felt so embarrassed and humiliated - but part of me tried to see her point of view.

    I slunked [is that a real word???] out of the shop with my tail firmly between my legs. The first time that I've ever been refused the right to try on clothes.

    After I calmed down a bit, I phoned the branch up to complain to the manager. As it happened the manager was having a day off and I was talking to the supervisor who had refused my access to the changing room. She apologised, I told her that I was'nt male, nor female, but a jolly combination of both. She read me her company policy [she'd just been re-reading it to make sure she had'nt acted incorrectly] and that policy was to refuse a 'male' use of the changing rooms. Which leads me to wonder why I've shopped at dozens of New Look shops which have, apparently, been breaking their own rules.

    I'm in a real quandry where I can sort of see their point - I would'nt want men in the same changing rooms as me - but as I don't see myself as a guy - and physically I'm not - I really don't know where i stand on a complaint front. I know many of you girls are far more advanced in UK legislation than I am, I want to complain, but what are my grounds?

    What really annoys me is that it was New Look of all places. I know New Look very well from decades ago. Way back when, they started out in the market trade at the same time my parents did. I remember, as a child, the times when the Singh family had problems and needed to get their stock to Exeter market and my parents helped out and loaded their stock in our old estate car and took it in for them. It just seems so ironic that the only discrimination I've ever experienced came from the same firm my parents helped get going! Ce la vie!

    I want to complain, but where do I stand?

    So much love - and may the changing rooms of this country gain the freedom they deserve!

    Rae xx
    www.raekelcou.com
      April 4, 2008 1:18 AM BST
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  • Well Rae.
    As far as my meagre knowledge of the legality of the situation you was in then is basically this. A store sets its own policies regarding the uses of its changing rooms. That is it will depend on the staff and managers of each shop though the shop itself will have a policy usually as you have discovered the individual in charge of the shop that day will ultimately decide what THEY will allow.

    I think the treatment you recieved is outrageous and unaceptable.
    I am a mouthy bitch and would have raised quite a rucous to get my way.I have never been refused or kicked out of any changing room I have had no complaints or comments made by others using such rooms.
    I would have Told that supervisor that I am a woman (pretend this is you talking) and how would she like it if someone mistook her for a man ? your next step would be to write a letter to the head office. Dont be appologetic in the letter be an angry and abused customer stating that this is the first time in all these years of using their stores you have recievd such unacceptable treatment by a member of the staff and that you will after this experience both no longer be giving any future custom to Neu look and will be telling your friends as well about the treatment you have recieved.

    If you have never sent such a letter before let me tell you that the company will bend over backwards to both keep your custom and ensure that the store in question especially the manager and hence supervisor will be both advised that you are entitled to use their changing rooms and you may well get some gift vouchers as a peace offering.
    I never take such attitudes or actions from anyone no matter who they are and escalating upwards towards higher management has an amazing effect.
    nxt time you go to that store they will be walking on egg shells treating you like the princess you are LOL

    I know my response sounds agressive poss over the top but I assure you that if you desire to use the same store again then this will give you a priviliged status you know like being treated as a VIP customer.

    To think that your family helped them keep the business rolling occsionally makes it even more insulting if you can use those conections do so a letter to the head honcho who may well remember those times your parents helped out just think what effect a missive from the head man would have.

    I will be interested in knowing what actions you do take if any.

    Again Iam outraged on your behalf GGGRRRRRR (steam issuing from my ears ) LOL

    Sarah XXX
    flowering into the woman I always was.
      April 4, 2008 1:45 AM BST
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  • 734
    Hi Sarah!

    Thankyou for your reply.

    I rather thought it may be up to the individual store. And I REALLY don't know why I did'nt stand my ground! Usually I am very very confident and would have held a vigorous discussion with the superviser but for some very strange reason I just felt my face going red and I just could'nt open my mouth! [Yep, thats a first].

    But regardless I still feel that, at the very least, a stern letter of complaint is called for - its not as if changing rooms are open plan!

    Much love to you

    Rae xx
    www.raekelcou.com
      April 4, 2008 12:44 PM BST
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  • 734
    oops!

    ...and for those who noticed my deliberate error, my myspace site is actually at www.myspace.com/kelso1962 - crikey, I can't even get my own site spelling right, what hope have I in changing the world!!!!!

    Much love

    Rae xx
    www.raekelcou.com
      April 4, 2008 1:01 PM BST
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  • This is a tricky and embarassing situation to find yourself in Rae and not one that I have encountered personally so I can only say what I would have done.

    Yes, a store could refuse you access to the changing rooms if they beleive you are male, so I would have pointed out exactly what I am to them and asked to go in anyway, if necessary with a staff member outside the cubicle to make sure I wasn't up to any good. Failing that, was there somewhere else I could try the jeans on then, since I really wanted them. (and they want to sell them to you, money money!).

    In my experience, being nice about it is much more likely to get you what you want. Be firm, but there's no need to get verbally aggresive, that could very easily backfire.

    Just my thoughts.

    Nikki
    Every woman is beautiful, some show it with their faces, others show it with their hearts.
      April 4, 2008 1:33 PM BST
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  • 734
    Hi Nikki!

    I don't usually get that reaction either - which is probably what made me behave like a rabbit in headlights! [I was dazzled when I should have been dazzling! ]

    Thats a good point you make about asking if there is somewhere else to try clothes on - another reason is I live in the middle of the countryside and its a 20 mile round trip to New Look so bringing things back is not an option!

    Much love

    Rae xx
    www.raekelcou.com
      April 4, 2008 1:54 PM BST
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  • Rae, just put this one down to experience and if it happens again, which I hope it never does, you will at least be better prepared.

    It's always good to know beforehand the options available to you, whatever the situation, since it saves getting flustered on the day.

    Best wishes,

    Nikki
    Every woman is beautiful, some show it with their faces, others show it with their hearts.
      April 4, 2008 2:53 PM BST
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  • going off at a slight tangent "slunked" is a great word!!!

    vikki xx
      April 5, 2008 1:55 PM BST
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  • 734
    Hey Vikki!

    Oh, don't worry about tangents! If I start a thread I welcome tangents, slight or otherwise. Its only those fearfull Moderators we need to worry about - but by their very definition they'll be moderate...

    I like 'slunked' it sort of fitted well into what I was trying to say, but it was still in the back of my mind I may have made the word up. Rae! Ye of little faith!

    Your comment made me wander off to my trusty old Oxford Dictionary where I discovered not only was it a real word but I'd used it [just about] true to one of its definitions. I must have heard it or read it somewhere.

    Slunk - past and past participle of slink.

    Slink - move quietly with gliding steps, in a stealthy or sensuous manner [mmm, sensuous was the LAST thing I was thinking!]. Come or go unobtrusively or furtively [thats nearer the mark!]

    And just to move off on a further tangent, I'm curious about the linking in slink's definition of 'stealthy' and 'sensuous'...

    Much love

    Rae xx
    www.raekelcou.com
      April 6, 2008 5:06 AM BST
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  • Working in a shop I have seen both sides of this argument. If any of our fitting room attendants are unsure about a customer they will ask a manager to arbitrate. As I'm sure we are all aware the fitting rooms in Ladies wear shops are for ladies. However if a shop has both male and female fitting rooms then the situation is different. I'm not a manager but have been called in to arbitrate where there may be problems with transgendered customers. If a dressed TG customer looks the part the attendants will not cause problems. If a man wants to try on female clothing he is quite free to do so in the male fitting rooms. I've been called to arbitrate where we have mini skirt wearing TVs who wear stockings and suspenders that show. Most of these normally start raising their voice and insisting on having every right to use the facilities. In these situations I would normally ask the person involved to come to the male fitting rooms. These are not as busy as the female fitting rooms. Then once the fitting room is clear we would give this person the sole use of the facility. It may not be ideal but it normally calms the customer down.
    I'm one of those that is fortunate enough not to have been refused access to the ladies wear fitting rooms.

    Alina xx
    Life is proceeding at a lovely pace
      May 2, 2008 1:49 PM BST
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  • Rae, I vividly recall a segment that aired on the Discovery Health Channel here in the states a couple of years ago. Any way, It showed a sign in Texas , I beleive dallas as I used to live there for a large department store that CLEARLY did't want "OUR" kind of customers in the womens changing rooms. First off dear, I dont and wont buy from a store that wont let you try on something. With the exception of Wal-Mart , I wont any way. At least at Walmart, I can at least exchange the product. Look girls womens sizes are too well , all over the rainbow so to speak. Im a size 16-18 skirt, well mabye. See, this depends on the cut and the quality of the skirt. Ive actually bought a size 12 and here I just stated that Im a size 18! Go figgure! Ellen Shaver
    Liberalism , a desease - E Shaver
      September 20, 2008 10:26 PM BST
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  • “…Wal-Mart… I can at least exchange the product.”
    One’s legal right to exchange a product if in possession of a receipt, is absolutely non gender-related! Surely that’s the same in the States, isn’t it…?
    Any sign dissuading “our type” of customers would be illegal here in the UK, sadly not in all parts of the USA apparently.
    As to Rae’s quandary, which was in April so I guess she’s calmed down about it now…
    Generally speaking, if someone is really making an effort to present, totally and utterly, as female, I would like to see shop assistants understanding and respecting the reasons behind that, and allowing them into the changing rooms of their obvious gender.
    If a guy goes into a female changing room to try on a pair of girl’s jeans, I understand and respect any shop’s policy of avoiding such awkwardness for their female customers. Guy’s should be, and almost certainly are in the UK – allowed to try on female clothes in the guy’s changing rooms.
    Hard to get my point across tactfully without trannies everywhere jumping down my throat… but what I guess I’m saying is (generally speaking, nothing to do with Rae): “Androgyny” is not a good reason to be allowed into a female dressing room. I’ve seen types who are already wearing women’s jeans and, “this is not a shirt, it’s a blouse…” and think that is enough to be accepted as female. Well, whether or not it should be enough, the point is that they may describe themselves as androgynous but others see them as men. If you want to be accepted as female, especially in such intimate areas as female changing rooms, then you have to really make an effort to present as female.
    This means: make-up to mask our crappy skin, a hairstyle or wig that does not scream out male or male-pattern-baldness, appropriate clothing, ie not 6” stiletto boots and a mini-skirt, or not an “androgynous” blouse that a hippie might wear, or any appearance in which you can pass as a bloke if you want to.
    You don’t have to have natural feminine features, you just have to make an effort, and leave no-one in any doubt as to which gender you identify.
    Sadly, I know of people who really have made the effort, but get read and therefore are disallowed entry into their changing room of choice, the fault in those cases lies with the perhaps over-zealous shop assistant, but I do understand it’s not always easy for staff who may not have come across that situation to make a snap decision, and not cause offence to the TG customer, or to the partially clothed girls in the changing rooms discussing each other’s outfits.
    xx
      September 21, 2008 4:27 AM BST
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  • I think Rae's incident was just one of those things like a bad hair day or whatever, She just didn't come across to the sales gal the right way. Maybe the sales gal realized she made a mistake but was afraid to admit it.
    I have not had any issues trying on things at Walmart, I'm thinking they only have one set of dressing rooms anyways. Years ago I recall them telling me I would need to wait a moment, I think for the gals to finish. Beyond that I think Lucy was quite right in how she viewed the usage of a women's dressing room.
    I now try on just about every last thing I buy. With so much difference in sizing and fabrics it can be too costly to not try things on first. And I can only assume if someone is afraid to try them on, they won't be to eager to go back and return them if they don't fit. Definitely a costly proposition.
    Hugs,
    Marsha
      September 21, 2008 5:40 PM BST
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  • Unless I'm buying a complete outfit in one hit then I very rarely try on items in the shop except for jackets or coats. I try them at home because I want to see how they go with other items. I might be wearing flats when shopping but want to see if it goes OK with heels.

    However if I'm in a different town/city then I will try it on.

    Alina x
    Life is proceeding at a lovely pace
      September 21, 2008 5:47 PM BST
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  • Hi--

    At least now you know. I had an interesting time a few years back when I went for a bra fitting (and you can read about that day here), and discovered that not every store will treat you well...or poorly. And yet, as badly as it went in the one store, I've been back to buy things since. If there's a problem in one area for changing, I just shrug and go to the other. I do get read every so often, and my life doesn't end.

    Still, I prefer shopping in places with unisex changing rooms; it simplifies life greatly.

    Luv 'n hugs,

    Mina Sakura
    Living as the woman I am!
      September 26, 2008 4:27 PM BST
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  • The quick retort to, 'I'm sorry, men aren't allowed in the changing rooms' is to agree, and say, "I wouldn't want men in our changing room".
    This reinforces your own gender, implies she made a mistake, and ought to produce an apology.
    Does it work? Yes, I have used a similar reply in similar circumstances.
    She is correct in that men are not normally allowed in female changing areas. Most stores will opt for suggesting an obvious male try on any clothes in the appropriate facility if they have one available.
    Sue. X Psychiatrists are like the eunuch in the harem. They know what transvestism is, they can describe it, they can demonstrate it, but they cant actually explain it!
      September 27, 2008 5:24 PM BST
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  • 734
    Hey!

    Sorry, I had’nt noticed the thread had been reinvigorated! In my defence, I’ve had only limited access to the net due to my poor PC being swamped by a dozen or two virus’s when I was’nt looking – just about sorted now though. [Phew!]

    I absolutely agree with virtually all the points made.

    Marsha, you’re absolutely right, it was definitely a bad hair day! Normally I would’nt have been fazed but for some reason I was just caught up in what I was doing and left myself ill prepared to deal with the situation.

    But I’m glad the discussion continues as it’s a very important area that most of us will come across at some point or other.

    Lucy, I appreciate what you’re saying and your comments are’nt necessarily directed my way.. However I do use the term ‘androgynous’ to describe myself – maybe erroneously – because it seems to be the best fit of what I am. My body is by no means entirely male and by no means entirely female. Many people I meet who did’nt know otherwise make the assumption that I’m taking hormones. But neither can I be classed as intersexed. I had to class myself here as ‘transgendered’ as I am not a crossdresser/TV. To be frank, after way too many years of looking, I have’nt found anyone like me – and you’d have thought the net would have yielded a couple! Anyway, that’s things I should really think about blogging but, tbh, I’m not sure the interest would be there. But I know what you mean about a guy with a blouse…

    Danique, wow, that’s the way the world should be…

    Sue, if I’d been having a ‘normal’ day that’s exactly the response I would have made.

    Anyway, as somebody so kindly reminded us all that this occurred way back in April, ahem, I will have to confess that I’m yet to contact New Look – but still have every intention of doing so. [I drive passed their Head Office every week!]

    It got pushed back in my mind due to a whole host of other things and the ‘work around’ that I’ve adopted. Which is to buy my goods in New Look, then walk across the road to another shop with individual changing rooms, take any old item in and try on my New Look goods. Ok, not ideal, but it works for me.

    But now this is back in my mind…

    So much love

    Rae xxx
    www.raekelcou.com
      September 28, 2008 1:30 AM BST
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  • Just before you put this episode down to experience and file it away in your archive Rae, here's a note I received today from the horse's mouth so to speak.

    This is Peter Robinson, from New Look who has read this thread at my insistence and replies as follows...

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Peter_Robinson
    To: Katie
    Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 9:22 AM
    Subject: RE: Changing Rooms

    Dear Katie,

    Please find below a statement on our policy re changing facilities.

    'New Look strives to ensure it meets and exceeds all the needs of our customers and that they have a private environment to try on our clothes. New Look welcomes feedback from our customers and actively looks to improve facilities where required through our improvement programme. New Look also operate a 28 day returns policy allowing customers to try on clothing at their own leisure.'

    Best

    Peter Robinson
    Head of Press
    New Look Retailers
    2 Portman Street
    London W1H 6DU
    T: 020 7659 5933
    F: 020 7659 5928

    It may not be quite the apology I think you deserve but it is interesting to see that you can bring ill-fitting stuff back within 28 days.

    Hugs,

    Katie x
    Success is the ability to go from one failure to the next without any loss of enthusiasm!
      October 14, 2008 11:28 AM BST
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  • 734
    Thankyou Katie. Your post is both appreciated and interesting.

    Much love

    Rae xx
    www.raekelcou.com
      October 14, 2008 10:11 PM BST
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