I had a link to a report by a psycho who said that for many TS it was as important to be able to pass on the street than to have srs but I lost the bookmarked link when my old comp died and now I can't remember the psycho or the link.

Does the phrase 'its as important to be able to pass on the street' ring any bells with anyone?

I believe that both are true. After all before the SRS we have to be able to live as females. To many that means passing. To me it means being accepted. Now that I have a birth certificate saying that I was born a female do I really need the SRS? To me that answer is yes, because I feel the need to be a "complete" female before my wedding.
However, when I thought that I may not be able to undergo the surgery because of medical reasons I did consider having to live my life with that "unwanted dangly thing".

I've not seen the report but how many Transsexuals actually live without having the surgery?

Alina xx

Rose, that is a very common topic so to find exactly where you found that is going to be tough.

SRS is on my list of things to do, however it is way down the list. I agree with Alina and that for me I want to be accepted. To a large degree I see that as going hand in hand with being passable on the street. There is the unconditional acceptance by family and friends no matter what your appearance, but when you are out in public can you handle the abuse if you don't pass?

Therefore it is my opinion those with limitted resources should use them first for the visible, passing treatments. SRS may give you a confidence boost which is definitely important, but when you walk down the road no one is going know the difference. I don't believe like some do that if someone feels good about themself, then that is all that should matter. We can all dream about a utopia where everyone gets along, but the fact remains there is a real world out there and it just doesn't work that way.
Hugs,
Marsha

Getting the birth certificate showing I was born a girl was the most important thing in my life so far. Gender Reassignment is just another step.

Alina xx

My views line up very similarly to Marsha's.

Sure I'd love to get SRS at some point. It'd be nice not to have to tuck and to just not have that thing there, but its not vital to me passing or living as a woman.

As long as I can live my life how I want to and as long as I can be seen and accepted as a female out in public, than thats all that matters at this point. SRS will come when I have the money and opportunity.

<3 Angelyn

Ladies--

I've said this before: Passing is not the all in all. Passing is a goal, not a solution.

Having said that, here is an article I wrote in 2004 describing why I feel that way. Yes, we need to work at passing--absolutely!--but there is so much more than that.

Do I want SRS/GRS? Not really. If I can live as the woman I've become, why go a very expensive route? Like Angelyn, I'd like to not have to tuck too. I'd like to laser the remaining hair off my body and not have to use an epilator and a razor. But with hormones, the right things in the right places, and lots of work to become the woman I am...I don't find I need surgery.

Though it would be nice to have that kind of cash laying around...!

Luv 'n hugs,

Dr. Mina Sakura

It's a very hypothetical question if passing is more important than SRS. I'm not sure they are even comparable.
SRS is important for passing too, like on the beach or when at the gym. SRS also gives a big confidence boost. Even so, after SRS going to work will still be going to work and doing the dishes will still be doing the dishes. In fact, life will be even a little more complicated since you have to rearrange your life to fit the post-SRS rituals which will eat a LOT of time, especially during the first year.

Passing on the other hand will help make every day life a whole lot easier regardless if you had SRS or not. If you pass, you will not have to worry about not getting a job because of being TS, don't have to put up with people giving you odd looks and so on.
SRS isn't the end of the road and most things will stay the same after SRS. In everyday life you use your ability to pass a whole lot more than you use your vagina.

Life gets easier if you pass and all transsexuals desire SRS but I don't think you can put passing in one hand and SRS in the other and say which is more important, they are both part of the same puzzle.

Hi again!

This is a post I'm putting up on Sakuramina.com. Normally, I'd link to it--but decided to post it here as well. I have my flameproof panties and bra on today, just in case.

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina
-----------
On The Question of SRS and/or Passing

Many articles start as questions from Trannyweb. This is one of those, and as usual, I wanted to expand on the topic here rather than there.

There has been a thread discussing SRS and passing, as if one goes hand in hand with the other. Some say yes, some say no. There have been psychologists discussing this question, and one said that ”…for many transsexuals, it was as important to be able to pass on the street than to have SRS.”

Let’s start with the concept of passing. A few years back, I wrote an article on the topic. (It can be found here.) I said at the time that “Passing is not the all in all. Passing is a goal, not a solution.” My original thoughts on this have not changed; far too often we look at passing as the ultimate goal, and that a lot of our problems will be solved if we could only attain the ability to pass as a genetic girl.

I also want to go on record that you need to do all you can to pass. Shaving, walk, mannerisms, tucking, vocal work, and everything else has got to be done, and done well. If you don’t, won’t, or can’t, you will get read like a cheap romance novel and that is not A Good Thing. (In fact, it can get you seriously hurt or potentially in trouble with the law.)

“Passing is not a solution. To some, they feel that ‘If I could just pass, then I'd be in.’ `Taint so, luvs. Passing is more than just a look or sound. It is a state of being. (In short: it's almost a zen concept.)” This is also still true. You will still have to work, pay the bills, take out the trash, and do the dishes whether or not you can pass. You won’t suddenly find life a bed of roses, a magic bank account that never empties, and Prince Charming waiting for you. Life will go on, regardless if you pass or not.

I still maintain that your attitude needs to be a key focus. You must have the attitude of a woman; if you have the attitude that you are a man in a blouse, skirt and pumps you are asking for trouble. “Develop the femme attitude, and you will go far.”

My thoughts on this have not changed. In fact, I’m more convinced of this than ever before.

About SRS: many of the same thoughts about passing can go here. You will still have to work, pay the bills, take out the trash, and do the dishes whether or not you’ve undergone SRS. You won’t suddenly find life all a fairy tale, with Prince Charming waiting on you. Life will go on.

My point here is this: given the choice, I’d rather work at passing! Why?

Honey, that’s easy. If I can live like a woman, pass for one 95-99% of the time (let’s be blunt: you will not able to pass everyone’s “test”, no matter how good you are unless you have SRS), and not get hassled too much about it, why undergo a procedure that requires years of therapy, a one-year “real life experience”, and at least $35,000 to $50,000 for the surgery itself? Bear in mind that does not include laser hair removal, cost of hormones, voice training and/or vocal surgery which may/may not work, and a few things I am missing, I am sure. The sole difference is now all my legal ID can say female, I can use a ladies restroom without fear, wear makeup all day, and nobody will care what my hair looks like except me.

But, you’ll still have to have a woman’s attitude. All that has changed is the outside packaging! Since that is the case, I prefer to work at everything as if I were undergoing a real life experience, without spending the money for the surgery.

All that means is that I have to pass as a woman, and do it every day for the rest of my life. Which I can—and do.

But, darlings, I have had to work hard at it. It just does not come that easily. I don’t just have to think like Mina, I have to be Mina. I have to walk, talk, think, look, and carry myself like a genetic woman, SRS or not. That also means I have to have the attitude of femininity, of womanhood.

In short…you have to live it. And if you can’t—or won’t—live it now, you simply won’t be able to carry it off later. It’s like music, sports, or anything else: you have to work at perfecting it—and I mean really work at it, not just on weekends but daily—to carry it off.

I hate to sound so pessimistic, but it is the cold, hard, truth: I didn’t get to be where I am by playing games. I have had to work my cute little fanny off at this. You will too. I’d be willing to bet (if I had money), that everyone that’s undergone SRS has had to work at it, too.

My question is, if you haven't started working at it...when will you?

I am definately on the 'passing' side of the fence. Surgery for me isn't necessary or anything I feel I must undergo. If I can pass 95% of the time, I'd be happy, and no one should be looking under my skirt to see what's there anyway!

Surgery would be nice, but it's not important and in my case isn't very likely to happen.

FFS on the other hand I do feel a desperate need for so I can just feel much better about myself.

Nikki

I think this is the most common topic that crops up in the TS world (MTF and probably the FTM as well).

Passing forget the looks ...how you dress.....whether you are pre-or -Post Op SRS it is irrelivant.

How so ?

If you are a woman (MTF ) or man (FTM) the issues that affect both apply and can be resoved for both groups by the same thing.

The key is confidence. Confidence with self not having any issues that are non TS related delt with first.

I cannot emphasie how important this is. Its easy to get a great outfit ahve a top makeover learn to act walk and (not so easy) talk like your (natural) gender. But without the inner confidence of self all will fail in attempts to pass.

I say this knowing many TS people who think with the correct hormones, FFS surgery , SRS surgery, voice etc will achieve passability look great and feel great ?? no it dosebt work that way round.

The psychology is the most important aspect of any attempts as passing, those little bits of body language will give you away because even if you look walk and sound the part those signals will get you read the signals that bourne if an innerinsecurity which often leads those to believe that looking the part will make them the part.

Once any issues that you may have about yourself ,your own self image ,your acceptance of self,your insecurities have be faced up to delt with healed and thus resolved the driving need beliefe about how you look will become almost inconsequential as you will totally know accept and feel every inch the gender you are. This will shine through the outer self and be projected read and accepted by everyone else. You manage that then when you add on the clothes the make up the actions the voice you will find that 95% will never notice you or question what you are. Those tell tale body signals that would have given you away are no longer there.

So your chances of passing will become almost a dead cert. Sure the odd person may read you but even then it will not be a big deal or an issue that gets under your skin you will shrug it off.

You will have a confidence that you may never have experienced before the whole transitioning thing will be easier to handle and cope with, dealing with the effects the hormones have on you the way you think and emotinal growth will all be easier to deal with and handle. If you did not resolve inner demons before transitioning the likely hood of going off the rails and having some kind of breakdown will almost be inevitable.

So it is one of the most vital issues to face and deal with pretransitioning. As it will lead to a far greater chance of success. Transitioning is not easy the effects of the hormones on your mind and body are grueling for the first couple of years and then even the next six though less so.

I say all this from a mixture of personal experience as well as knowing what has happened to other girls I have known through the years and believe me many have taken that road before they was actually ready for it. And even the ones who was strong and ready still have had the odd bumps to ride.

So please take all the above very seriously then you will have much chance for success at passing in the way that you imagine desire or dream of doing. Confidence built upon good foundations stands up to far more than that gained by the superficail external that may be dervied temporarily from looking great in appearnce.

Sarah--

You've put an important piece of the puzzle in--for it's what I call the femme attitude that you have crystallized so wonderfully:

"The psychology is the most important aspect of any attempts as passing, those little bits of body language will give you away because even if you look walk and sound the part those signals will get you read."

Many thanks for your post!

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

It's the psychology- very true,very true.
However, I think being out and about 'en Femme' as much as possible also helps in settling into the new role.Even if 24/7/365 isn't possible,get out there doing normal things- supermarket,cinema,theatre,window-shopping etc- as often as you can.Anyone limited to 'one night stands' will generally find things harder.Don't be afraid to while away time in street cafes either- GG watching can be very educational as far as the range of female body language goes.;)

ciao
Lynn H.

(if this comes up twice,it's because there was some sort of hiccup with my provider...............)

That's exactly my belief too Lynn, you have to get out there and do normal everyday things and spend some time watching GG's, and your body language will become feminine very quickly and you won't have to think about your actions at all.

Those subtle differences will get you accepted as female before anything else.

Nikki

Although things are drifting off the original thread of what is more important, passing or srs, every debate on the subject leads back to having confidence.

Call it psychology or whatever, gaining that confidence is an individual thing. I think it is obvious to many passing is a big part of achieving that confidence. Possibly srs is what it will take for others.

I think Lynn was on the right track recommending getting out when possible, although I see a big difference between that and going fulltime. Basically you need to test the waters, see other peoples' reactions and understand your response, then make adjustments. Those adjustments may end up being HRT, facial surgeries, hair removal, even srs before you are comfortable. There is definitely not one better path, maybe one better path for you, but a different one may be better for me.

Hugs,
Marsha

"There is definitely not one better path, maybe one better path for you, but a different one may be better for me. "

Exactly. You have to decide which is your best option, what is most important to you, only you can make the choice.

Nikki

Just a quick post, it's late, I'm tired - have you tried being a Nanny? Yeesh! - but hopefully I'll pop back in a day or three...

Sarah is - as usual - spot on.

Its a confidence thing. If you're secure in yourself then how you look will be natural. You.

I appreciate I'm coming into this from a slightly different route. I can't say where I'm headed exactly, but I'm examining the options closely. And, I suspect, having a mixed up body to begin with does help. ['Though I spent years thinking otherwise].

I'm not trying to pass as anything other than Rae. Rae is Rae and thats all that counts.

Mina's comment of it being a 'zen' thing also strikes a chord. Its all in the mind. Get that right and you're sailing.

Sorry this has been short and sketchy - but an interesting debate!

Much love

Rae xx

I'm going to add a little point here because I think most things have already been said.
How many of us feel that receiving a second glance is a sign of being read? I used to think that way but after more than 2 years of being Alina full time I've started to think differently. I've realised that I give lots of people a second glance, and I don't mean looking to see if that person is transgendered, but to pick up on points about them. I wonder what make her lippy is? her hair is nice, etc.

Yesterday on my way to an evening meeting in London I happily walked along Oxford Street, Regent Street, around Piccadilly Circus and Leicester Square. I used a coach to get to London and the tube. Did I receive any second glances? Yes quite a few but I didn't get stared at or anything like that.

So, is not passing all in our minds?

..........in short,do your homework regards passing first of all.Hormones won't make you pass,but they may tip the scales in your favour when your body form speaks against you........but only if you've done your homework on passing.In some places the shrinks and quacks expect you to start living 24/7 as a women before they recommend hormones................
There's a thread here: I will never pass...........which was started by someone who refuses to take advice,sees no need to work on herself etc etc, and who blames the world at large for all the problems she's landed herself with instead of taking a good,long,merciless look at herself. Read it and be warned.......;)

Good luck,ciao
Lynn H.

You are right about second glances, I know I get them but very often it's not because I've been read, and is, on occasion, because I have made some effort to look nice and the second glances are a positive thing.

Lynn - Personally, I wouldn't have a problem going full time and never taking hormones, but that's me. They would just be the icing on the cake.

Nikki

**WARNING--OPINION AND SLIGHTLY OFF TOPIC!!!**

Dears--

Sure I'd like to finish the job, go totally femme full time instead of the roughly 87.5% +/- time I do currently, AND continue hormones. In short: I want it the whole works. And while there are differing anecdotes about what hormones can/cannot do, I have found they help me quite a bit. (Those aren't all breast enhancers in my picture, honey. Much of those are really me.) If nothing else, I feel more level headed and in better control of who I am, as opposed to what I was.

But, hormones won't--they cant'!--do it all. What has to be there has been covered in pretty fair depth on this thread. You can't blame the world if you don't pass; you do what you need to do (or at least, what you can do) to pass.

And I still would rather work on passing than have SRS.

An example: do I like having to epilate the hair off my body? The answer is not just no...it's H*ll no! It hurts every time I do it, and I do it every 7-10 days right now. (I know there's stuff out there that would help with that, but I am not going there.) I do it because it helps me feel better about my femininity, my womanhood--which in turns helps me pass. If I did the SRS thing, that would be one small issue I wouldn't have to deal with. But, that's a small area.

As for second glances...Honey, I get 'em more often than I want to acknowledge. That's life in the Mina lane. It gets filed under "putting the big girl panties on and moving on with life."

So when I catch some perv trying to look down my top to see if my boobs are real, I just smile. When I get greeted with, "May I help you, miss?", I glow. And when someone says "hi" to me by my femme name--which many people do, including my Shiseido sales rep (who sees genetic girls all day up close)--and they see the woman I am, then I know I am passing.

You just have to go do life, luvs. Don't wait for tomorrow--live life today!

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

Mmmmmmm ok it is the new kid on the blocks turn to chip in a thought of what it means to me.

Passing and what dose that mean do I have to look and behave like a certain kind of girl for others to perceive me as a woman or girl. Well if that is the case I am sorry to say I fail but if you saw me as a girlish boy last month then you will see me as a boyish girl today. Passing is a stress I do not think about and to be honest do not care about any more, now it seems no one seems to care what I am either. All I can say is in the main I get doors held open, seats pulled and pushed, ma’am and miss, almost all the time. But that really only came about with my state of mind not to see the bad things in the world and I can ignore the rude people even if they are in my face……… When really pushed I will look you clean and square in the eye and say “and you think I am doing this for your benefit,, like I give a damn what you think” and move on

If I am happy with my look in my self then I pass to me ……… to me and that is all I need to know.
GRS / SRS for me it meant the world as it has taken away my shame pure and simple I did it for me. I care not if someone in the street thinks I am ugly, fake whatever I did it for me and it has saved me.

Next will come the passer FFS…….. And again I am going to do what I want done; not made to look like Barbie. I want my look for me if people don’t like it I will not care. As long as I am happy with my choices then nothing else really matters.


Hugs from my bed in MtF clinic, Bangkok, Thailand having had GRS and repairs... The Shopping queen Sara

re:body language.
This seems to me to be any area full of pitfalls,traps and misconceptions.Most of us have probably,at one time or another, leafed through or even read books on the subject by Desmond Morris,Sammy Molo, or the Pease Family. My personal opinion is that a lot of what is given as specifically male or female does not correspond with observation. An example: there's a way of crossing legs- the ankle on knee position- which is held to be a male position. After years of commuting,going to parties,sitting in street cafes etc etc I can only say that girls sit like this too...as long as they are not wearing a skirt or a dress. I think that there is really a lot of leeway in body language so that it's probably more of a subtle combination of different things (as Sarah implies) which determine how we get read on the M-F scale.

ciao
Lynn

No, Nikki, I'm not 24/7 although since being made redundant
I'm getting close.

Anyone know why the smileys aren't working despite being switched on?

Marsha,
whether one goes overnight from 0/7 to 24/7 or whether ,to borrow a term from Lucy Diamond, one 'ramps up' is,when all is aid and done, a question of individual circumstances.The basic problems and preferred solutions are,however,to my mind the same whether flung in at the deep end or wading resolutely down from the shallows.

lol & ciao
Lynn H.

SRS may play a role in successful passing. I remember years ago talking to a post-op girl who reckoned that her walk had changed as a result of the op.- but this may be a one-off.Over to all the TW post-ops for comment.

lol & ciao
Lynn H

I have not started my transistion, but do go out en fem. So far I have had no problems entracting with others or being seen. IMHO I feel that

1. If you go out en fem and nothing happen - then you passed.
2. If you go out en fem and someone reads you but says nothing - then you passed.
3. If you go out en fem and someone reads you and either winks or smiles at you to tell you they read you but does nothing - then you passed.

I was told four thing to do to be accepted

1. Dress to blend in
2. Act like you belong where you are at.
3. Act like you have done this all your life.
4. Smile at anyone that looks at you.

As I said, so far I have had no problems going out en fem. Even my wife has been impressed how well I pass when we go out together.

I think another GG is the best indicator. If that is your wife, even better. They are full of good advice and if they are happy to be seen with you in public and in daylight, then you are doing well. Learn from them, they already know how's it's done.

Nikki

To me SRS is important. Passing enough so that i do not get beaten up again is a goal I long for. To me passing and SRS are two different goals with two different meanings to them for two different purposes.


Stephenie