I was amazed to find Charlie Kane has had a genital switch reversal and it is our UK NHS that has paid for it!
I saw him on telly a few years ago when he first said he had made a mistake in having the genital switch and thought he sounded a bit crazy...I couldn't say exactly what is wrong with him but he has some mental problems.
He blamed Dr Ried for it but he forgot to mention he came from the intensely homosexual background of growing up in Iraq. Then he cheated himself and only did 7 months RLE.
It is people lie him who make for the bad headlines of sex change is a waste of money!

What is everyone's attitude to 2 years RLE?

I don't know much about Charlie but that sort of thing doesn't surprise me. Just as TS's are a tiny percentage of the population, guys/gals like Charlie are a tiny percentage of the TS's. I think it is societies fault that happens for the simple reason although things are better now, society still frowns on homosexual behavior and in some countries it is criminal. Therefore there becomes a denial of homosexualality and with the desire for a relationship with the same biological sex, justification is created by saying he/she must be the other.

As for 2 years RLE, personally I don't have a problem with that but I do feel it really comes down to the individual. I believe that is the problem with cookie cutter programs in national health care systems. Not that the care is bad, but rather things can become more like an assembly line versus individual craftsmanship.

I don't have a full understanding of say the UK NHS but from what I have picked up on is the toughest or longest part of the gender program is the wait to get in. Once in the program things appear to just move along and that might be where the problem lays. There seems to be a rush to begin RLE once you start hormones and have surgery once the one year RLE is up. Not that this is necessarily bad, just there is so much change occuring in your life all of a sudden that it opens the door to mistakes. It can be said that is what a good therapist is for and all I can say is really? I have heard plenty of stories where gals know more about transgender than the therapists or doctors and that again opens the door to the "Charlies" of the world who want to sneak through.

Another possible reason for incidents like Charlie's is the rush by some gals. Often there is a feeling that we have already missed so much in our lives living as the wrong gender that we feel it all has to change right now, not tomorrow, but now. I think we probably all experience that but it is how rationally we act that is the key to having a successful life. Ideally we want a long and happy life after our transition, so why not take the time to do it right.

So I guess if it was up for a vote to change the standards of care to 2 years RLE, I would vote yes. Don't get mad at me, there are plenty of exceptions, lol.

Hugs,
Marsha

One year, two years, what's the difference? I think the most important thing is to be living full time as a woman regardless. Surgery is just the icing on the cake and isn't available to us all for various reasons. Nothing, however, can stop you living full time. I think if someone is not prepared to wait the requisite amount of time, it would throw up questions as to why they want to hurry it along. Surely an additional twelve months is not going to make much of a difference in the long run? Frustrating yes, but if you are still living full time surely it doesn't make a huge amount of difference?

Nikki

I know nothing of this "Charlie Kane" so won't comment upon him. I do believe any one wishing to have SRS (GRS or what ever it's called now!) should have to live full time in there prefered gender for at least a couple of years prior to their operation, at least the person should then (hopefully) be sure if it's right for them.
The one thing I do disagree with though (as I've heard some on this and other sites complain about) Is being forced to go full time before recieving any help with hormones or hair removal.

Just my thoughts

Huggles

Becca

I can't believe anyone is 'forced' to go full time, that sounds like excuses for not being commited to it. If you are pursuing SRS then surely you WANT to go full time, as soon as possible? The time for doubts should be past by then. As for hormones and laser, the latter comes out of your own pocket anyway, so what's stopping a person from going ahead with it? And hormones, yes, they are terrific and I would love a healthy dose of them every day but as many girls here have said before, they aren't a miracle drug that changes everything to make you appear more feminine. Not overnight anyway, and there is a lot that they don't effect such as bone structure.

You can look pretty good without hormones, not having them isn't something that would stop you being full time.

Personally, I would be looking at some serious FFS (which isn't available on the NHS anyway) if I needed to make any changes before going full time. That and some implants would do nicely thankyou.

Nikki

Hi All-

I'm not familiar with Charlie Kane, googling him using various search paramaters came up with nothing, but I'd be interested in learning more about the situation. As far as SRS, GRS, whatever the prefered term is, reversal goes I am deeply torn over the issue. While not wanting it, SRS that is, for myself (Some sort of snap-on/snap-off genitalia would be cool, though. Like Ms Potatohead. Sorry, don't mean to offend, just being my usual flip self.) I can understand how for some they might feel that SRS will solve all their problems, then when they find the same baggage they have been dragging behind them is still there, they feel somehow misled or defrauded and want their old misery back rather than the current, and probably even more difficult one. I am most emphatically not lumping all TS girls together, by the way, please don't get your panties in a wad if you feel that I am.

My own feeling is that we all have issues of all sorts, for some of us it has to do with our gender issues and we may feel, deeply, genuinely and honestly, that if we could just change that wee bit of plumbing between our legs, things will all sort themselves out and we'll live happily ever after. But major life changes, SRS, divorce, quitting drugs, sobering up, moving to another town, whatever it is, won't fix all that may be bad and dysfunctional in our lives. So when we find that what we got wasn't what we thought it would be there is that buyer's remorse and we want someone, whether it was the surgeon or therapist or whomever, to make things right again. Certainly it couldn't be our own fault or our own mistaken and completely voluntary choices.

As Nikki and others have pointed out, nothing on this green earth prevents us from living our lives as we wish. Yes, I understand about familial and other issues, believe me. But anyone who really wants to can live their lives and present themselves as the gender they wish they were. To me, there are certain doors that, once you pass over that threshold, close behind you for good, you must choose well and think deeply about it before you take that step. SRS is obviously one of these doors. So is coming out.

Sorry, don't mean to go on. And perhaps I shouldn't even pipe up since I am content, more or less anyway, with how things are for me. I hope I haven't offended anyone with my little ramble.

Hugs...Joni Marie

I don't think a doctor should have any say as to when a person starts RLE after starting on mones.
But I also think a person should not be allowed to have SRS untill they do have RLE.
Some people are just ready to start sooner than others. If a person can't decide on thier own as to when, than that person has no buisness getting SRS.

Nikki, the Forced to go fulltime you are referring to is what Rebecca said and I fully understand and agree with her. The standards of care which are followed by many national health systems require within a short period of starting hormones that a gal starts living fulltime as a woman. That is clearly the one rule I hate. I believe like Rebecca mentioned that starting hormones and having things like laser done are preparation for going fulltime. I believe the better prepared you are in the first place the greater chance of a successful life down the road. One year on hormones is only going to give you moderate physical change at best, so what is the big deal of rushing into living fulltime still looking like a guy? Personally I feel too many look at this as a darn race thinking SRS is the finish line when the reality of it is you have the rest of your life to live so you may as well try and get things right the first time.
Hugs,
Marsha

Nikki!!!
Serious FFS? Maybe you need a new mirror? You look great...

Charlie Kane is Charles Kane is Samantha Kane...lots of webites about Samantha/Charles sex change.
Thing is he never had any desire or thoughts about being female until the nervous breakdown and then impulsively decided to change sex without doing the RLE which would have showed hime the life of a woman was not for him.

His impulsiveness was shown when he wanted to buy a big boat but instead of spending time looking to se what was available and how to actually drive a boat he saw one big one cheap, made an offer but when he turned up found it didnt run etc and he had no idea of how to drive it...he came across as not right in his head...but hard to actually saw what that was.

The old idea of doing RLE before any hormones is now out of date? Or do some areas still demand it? I put myself on hormones for quite a while before I went to see about starting transition and then learned that local health board had a 2.5 year wait to get to gender clinic which then had a 2.5 year course so total of 5 years seemed a bit long. But thats about what it will have taken me when I finally get to surgery.

But last year our NHS has had to put in place an 18 weeks plan meaning a person has to be seen in 18 weeks by psychiatrist then within 18 weeks start at gender clinic and 18 weeks start on hormones/RLE if clinic finds genuine need to transition, then 2 years RLE although they say this can be shortend to take previeous RLE into account but basically they want 1 year RLE anyway, then at end of RLE its 18 weeks to get second opinion from other psychiatrist, then 18 weeks referral to a surgeon to see what surgery is needed or possible then 18 weeks to surgery...so its still all can be quite a while. Hard to see them getting it down to say 18months unless the person is one of the young very female TS and has lived and been treated by a girl by everyone, but for the typical mature male who wants to transition it will probably be 2.5 - 3 years before surgery.

Charles Kane arranged his own surgery just 7 months after seeing teh psychiatrist for the first time..so that surgeon is really to blame for doing it anyway.

Re RLE i saw one person saying that when he turned up at gender clinic during transition in his mans business suit etc the staff said why aren't you dressed as a woman and he got really angry at them and said he worked in male mode! They said but RLE is suposed to be in new gender mode! He didn't like that at all. But they persisted and said RLE is RLE fulltime. So he went off and paid for his own surgery just one year after first visit to doctor..Said seems happy and accepted so perhaps it worked out OK...Age was I think mid fifties.

Marsha, I would be happy going fulltime tomorrow and no hormones have ever been near me. I do understand what you are saying though and I don't disagree, each girl has to find her own way that works for her. I think you are quite correct though when you mention some people racing towards SRS and not really having time to reflect on it all.

Rose - I have heard of similar cases of people supposedly being fulltime but actually aren't. It baffles me and shows lack of commitment to be honest. No wonder they get turned away or questioned at a gender clinic, what would they expect???? I'm glad it seems to be working out for that person though. I have also known others attend their first clinic and completely suprise the staff because they appeared to have transitioned/be on RLE already.

I don't disagree with the time delays, this is not an overnight process after all, the time scales are there to ensure the subject is absolutely ready and prepared for their life after surgery so is in there best interests really.

Nikki

I think everyone in this thread has made important, thoughtful comments. The Harry Benjamin standards WERE an important step because they gave early gender therapists guidelines. However, we know much more today than we did back then. The Internet has enabled those who once would have hidden alone and silent a chance to have support to find themselves and a chance to express themselves. I wish those that govern transition could listen to TG/TS persons and understand us better. There is a need for gender therapists to be truly qualified and that requires that they go through their own RLE, where they actually learn about our Community by a required time spent interacting with the population they wish to treat, online and offline with perhaps even a requirement or option to experience a day crossdressed in public with TG/TS persons. [NOT with their classmates but only with TG/TS persons so they can get the feel for being out there and exposed.] This could be an important empathy builder, much the same as wearing a "pregnancy prosthesis" to understand what it's like for a pregnant woman. I'm not sure I would trust the empathy or acceptance of a gender therapist who would not do a RLE day, evening and night themselves. [This probably would have the beneficial but unintended side-effect of producing more crossdressing gender therapists and attracting more closeted TG persons to become Gender Therapists :-D ]

The important goal is to produce gender therapists who really understand the community they are going to treat and the wide range within that community. Only then will they be able to throw off rigid rules and treat each individual as an individual with a care plan appropriate to that person and not a one-fits-all template. One-fits-all clothing doesn't fit all either, does it? When this is accomplished, THEN individuals seeking counseling on gender issues will be free to tell the WHOLE truth and not try to fool their therapist out of fear of being rejected for SRS. In this way the chances of approving SRS for the wrong person will be greatly diminished because with the truth the qualified gender therapist will be able to help the individual find what they, internally, really need, which isn't always what we think it is at first. I know this from first hand experience with an excellent therapist who I never told about the "unrelated and unimportant" secret of my intermittent "crossdressing". Surprise. It took two days at TW to realize my mistake. My main point here is the system must fix itself to reduce "mistakes" in approving SRS. Only then can they expect clients to be completely honest. People's lives, and in some cases life, are on the line.

Hi Rose-

Thank you for including Samantha Kane's name, it enabled me to find quite a few links. It's a sad case in so many ways. For Sam/Samantha/Charles and how it sensationlizes SRS. Personally I feel he has no one but himself to blame, yet in some ways I do feel sorry for him. He is, simply put, a person with tons of money, no impulse control, and no insight or willingness to accept the consequences of his own actions.

Hugs...Joni Marie

Wendy, I think I understand what you are saying about not having a one size fits all approach but I think you are completely wrong thinking rigid rules will help prevent that. Personally I think rigid rules and individualized care is an oxymoron. Simply put, the current standards of care are pretty rigid and that is the problem. In the U.S. far less therapists insist on following the SOC but where you have socialized medicine, they thrive on rules. I believe extending the R.L.E to 2 years, yet allowing exceptions that can be approved by a qualified therapist is a better answer.

There will always be Charlie Kane's of the world, we can't save all of them from themselves. The best thing Charlie can do is remain very public about his screw up so the other Charlie's of the world will see it is not a panacea to live as the other gender.

Hugs,
Marsha

Hi Marsha Ann-

Not to rush to my buddy Wendy's defense (Hi, Wendy!), but I think you may have mis-read or misinterpreted what she said. No offense. I read and re-read her post and didn't get, in any way, that she was advocating rigid rules for applicants for SRS. Quite the opposite in fact. This from the second sentence of her second paragraph..."Only then will they be able to throw off rigid rules..." Perhaps I am misunderstanding what she wrote or what you intended to say. Every individual is unique and their situation in life is unique, this is not, or at least shouldn't be, the Procrustean operating table after all.

Hugs...Joni Marie

Charles Kane is indeed completely bonkers. The documentary shown on TV about him a few years ago was desperately cringe-worthy. Yep, he bought a huge yacht, it was so big he didn’t realise he would need a qualified skipper to sail it, or that it was not actually seaworthy, but he was glad he’d bought it just the same…
He said a lot of barmy stuff abort why he transitioned in the first place; like his wife had left him and he’d decided life was easier for women, so he thought that would be right for him. Of course, he wouldn’t have given those reasons to Dr Reid which is what really annoys me; wherever you go, whichever clinic, private or NHS, and with all the therapists in the world, transsexualism is basically self-diagnosed. The clinic gives you a diagnosis of GID or whatever because you TELL them that is your problem. If you have half a brain (which is the case with Mr Kane thereby rendering him dangerous…) and you are determined to have SRS for “unorthodox” reasons, you are not going to give those reasons to the shrink. The reasons Mr Kane NOW gives for wanting his original SRS are not those he would have given to Russel Reid. I feel sure he would have got a very different treatment had he said all that stuff in the first place.
Trying to say those were his reasons and then blaming poor Dr Reid for everything going wrong is an insult to the intelligence. He will have put forward a convincing case, and several years down the line decided he was wrong all along. Enter stage left: Human Nature…
I can’t imagine anyone BEING more wrong thinking they want to be a woman and then realising it was a mistake. It beggars belief that anyone can be so self-unaware. What does not surprise me is that he will not admit this, and therefore needs someone else to blame. Nobody likes to say they were wrong, at least surely not when they are THAT wrong. Enter stage right: Dr Russel Scapegoat Reid, simultaneously opening the door to a small fortune for a greedy, loony, opportunistic plaintiff.
When you see Mr Kane as handled by the TV documentary crew, he is obviously bonkers, but on a one to one, well-planned session with a gender specialist I’m sure he was very convincing.
A TS deciding the time is right to transition HAS to take responsibility for this decision. The specialists are not gatekeepers as many people love to call them, they are there to help you, to do what is right for you. A large part of the clinic-patient experience is in fact you convincing them that you know you are right.
Mr Kane also chose to have electrolysis and pay for private cosmetic surgery; boobs, FFS and voice surgery, nothing to do with Dr Reid. As Samantha, Ms Kane made a very convincing woman. In my humble opinion, this person is not a regular male, was never happy in that role, and having seen the m2f2m “corrective” surgery described in detail, can surely never be happy with such a, and I don’t normally use this word, “mutilated” body. He is a sad shell of human being, but I’m afraid I have no sympathy for him.
I won’t go into the political issues and motivations behind certain consultants at Charing Cross being so eager to nail their former employee to the cross…
I will add that I’ve never met Dr Reid, am not here to defend him, but know several people who have seen him, mostly who have now had SRS, even one who in their uncertainty about SRS was delayed referral by Dr Reid, as any other consultant would do I’m sure.
Mr Kane is wholly responsible for all his mistakes, but I think he has yet to realise that he is still making them.
Anyway, that was a long rant wasn’t it. How does this affect my opinion on length of RLE? It doesn’t. The Kanes of this world will wait two years if they have to, or in their impatience will just go abroad and pay for surgery without referral.
I don’t think RLE is such a bad thing. It’s not a test you have to pass, it’s not something you’re supposed to prove to someone else, the point of it is not to be policed by your consultant; it’s for you to be sure within yourself. Gender Identity comes from within, it’s not always obvious even to an expert, which gender someone feels they belong to.
Most of us don’t need RLE. Most of us usually are happy to stop living in way which in my case became increasingly more difficult with age, to stop lying to everyone and to start living as female. Going fulltime without hormones should not be an issue. It’s not about passing or not passing, it’s about being yourself. In theory one could buy hormones, have all the surgery and THEN go fulltime. If one is lucky enough to be totally passable and resourceful enough to do this without anyone knowing then fine, I don’t believe in having to suffer pain for one’s “art”, but I do believe, having done it myself, that it needn’t actually be painful without first having hormones and/or surgery.
In a way Mr Kane has created a more obvious “need” for RLE. The media can not be given such ammunition with which to obliterate all TS’s who have worked so hard to gain their own respect. The blame culture in these rare cases of SRS reversal is inappropriate, but RLE seems to be needed to protect the “specialists” as much as, if not more than the patients themselves.
There is no "right" length of time for RLE, like I say, most of us really don’t need it at all, but for those who do it’s an individual thing, which is difficult and unfair to implement on an individual basis. So although it’s not the best situation, everyone should have to do the same length RLE.
I did two and a half years living fulltime before I had SRS. I didn’t have a problem with that but it was long enough thank you very much. Perhaps 18 months would do, maybe 12, how long is a piece of string?
But it’s not up to us to decide such things is it. So I will finish (hooray!) by saying:
Enjoy your RLE, it’s not really a big deal. It’s the start of the rest of your life, which should outweigh the minor impracticalities of not having your body corrected straight away.
xx

Joni, Yes it looks like you are right, I misinterpreted it when I first read it. Needless to say it sounds like we all agree any treatment needs to be individualized.

LOL, Wendy that post had been modified, did it say that the first time around? Smile.

Hugs,
Marsha

I've never seen a transcript of the 'trial' of Dr Reid...it would perhaps be very interesting..and might show the motives of the Charing Cross gang...medic ausually stick together...what were they scared of in Dr Reid's work with TS?
I am one who saw Dr Reid. He sat me down and said tell me about youreslf.. So for almost an hour I juts told him everything about myself and at the end he said 'you are transsexual'...simple enough..
So what Charlie Kane told him can only be imagined.


One aspect of the Kane mess is that the NHS is ahving to pay for the reversal including the work he had done abroad? But the NHS will not pay me for the boobs job I had done abroad...so how can they pay for him?
I will quote Charlie Kane when I decide to take my claim to law.

Hi Nikki
I was over two years transitioned when I finally got first apointment at clinic...I had done all the legal stuff, thrown out all the male stuff, and was working quite happily in hospital office...it would be good to see their initial report on me....UK NHS could make TS wait 2 or more years as it has been labelled 'low priority' for a while...but since late last year they have to see people within 18 weeks of first visit to a psychiatrist and saying they want to transition...so maybe no long transitioned ones will be turning up at clinic.

And really I can't imagin waiting for the clinic's permission to start transition? Anyone serious enough about wanting to will have transitioned quite a bit anyway?

But then I saw on another forum a newbie had been to my clinic for first time in total male mode..so what will they be thinking of him?

Well they will have to see person six times at two week inetrvals over 3 months to be sure the person is a genuine case. Three of the team sit in on first appoint - to check for signs of femaleness I think? So if those three experienced people decide that ther eis no real femaleness there then they can say 'sorry we don't think it is right for you.' Then the person can go away knowing that they need to look at their life to see another way forward.

Marsha,

I thought that this is what i said: "Only then will they be able to throw off rigid rules and treat each individual as an individual with a care plan appropriate to that person and not a one-fits-all template." My point was that GETTING RID of rigid rules was a necessity.

Other than my opposition to an increase to 2 yrs RLE, I don't see where we disagree. Flexibility allows therapists to require a longer RLE for an individual if they feel it's necessary, and a shorter RLE for individuals who are clearly ready to deal with SRS. Please tell me where I communicated that I supported rigid rules? I would like to correct that impression.

I have just read the remaining posts in the thread. No, Marsha, I often proofread and correct my posts for content and spelling and grammar after first posting it. I may end up editing it a few times as I reread it. However, I did say what it says now. Reading back years over my posts on gender therapy will demonstrate an opposition to rigid treatment methods as opposed to competent, flexible therapists. In fact, I decided some time ago, before going out en femme myself became a real issue, I determined that I MUST do it at least once before I attempted to practice as a gender therapist. I have learned things here at TW that I could never learn in school. The most important is that my TG situation does not mean I understand the position of other TG persons. Therapy is not about being right, it's about understanding by both the client and the therapist.

I have always encouraged others to seek their own, personal path and not be pressured by others to follow the path others have taken. Instead to listen, think and do what feels right for them. I see both of these stands as supportive of the flexible approach.

[addition] In regards to my first post: I don't think that therapists should be getting ALL their experience to understand TG/TS persons while the client is paying for it. Let them get lots of free experience going to serious, non-sexual=centered sites or gathering places of the Community until it's obvious to them, in an hour (if the person is not lying to them), whether they are talking to a TS, TG or CD and how we are a spectrum community. Then they will be ready to start using their therapy techniques to diagnose clients. If you can't tell the difference, what right do you have to be charging money to diagnose the client as TS or not?

Marsha, anyone can misread or mis-write. Don't worry about it.. If I'd said anything like that I would have been glad to have it pointed out to me. Thank you.

Lucy, you go girl!

Rose, thank you for some very interesting information on the good Doctor and the system.

Hi, Joni. You know me too well.

I think that the point made by Lucy and Rose is very valid, that if you are serious about this, you are likely to have already been living full time anyway, before you even get too far into the system, I can certainly think of a lot of friends that have taken that route, and certainly I would do things that way myself for no other reason than to start living as a woman at the earliest opportunity.

The downside of all the Samantha Kane issue though is that it gets media attention of a the wrong kind and doesn't do our cause any good at all.

Nikki

Wendy, I had just misread it the first time. I am not familiar with the term "throw off" and I think I just read something into it. An interesting point you made in your last post was the psychs should just spend sometime online to help them understand the difference's better. I have to agree with you 100% on that. Sure different people come across different but all and all, it is so easy to spot differences just by following the dialog.
hugs,
Marsha