http://www.heraldtribune.[...]e-Worth

The good news was published Wednesday, April 8, 2009. The link is to a short article and photograph. The lesson here is to vacation in Lake Worth, not Largo, FL.

You might want to consider this aspect of Susan Stanton http://www.pamshouseblend[...]Id=4057. She is not, perhaps, a sterling advocate for the TG community, though in all fairness she has never really claimed to be. I would still rather vacation in Lake Worth than Largo and if anyone would like to send me a roundtrip ticket I'll be happy to send you my address.

Hugs...Joni Marie

I'm sorry but I agree with Susan's statements. Just because we have a similar condition doesn't mean we have to like each other. I don't believe CD/TV's need the same rights and protections as TS's who live fulltime as the other gender.

I consider Susan a friend of mine and credit her story as the main reason my wife now accepts me. Because she doesn't walk hand in hand with the LGBT community does not make her a bad person.

Marsha-

Nowhere in my post did I say that she was a "bad person", I merely stated that her statements re the TG community are another aspect of the story. Some people want to hail her as a hero and as some sort of standard bearer. Obviously she is just as prejudiced in her own way as anyone else. And yes, we all have the right to our own opinions and being TG does not make us all the same.

And I must tell you that I vehemently disagree with your implied elitist statement that somehow TS's deserve special protection while someone who is TG or CD does not. I believe anyone who is differently gendered and who publicly displays their gender orientation should be protected above and beyond the regular laws against assault and harassment, just as gays and lesbians are protected.

Hugs...Joni Marie

Joni,
First off I'm sorry if you thought I was upset at what you had said. I am extremely aware of how Susan has been treated by the community after her situation made the news in early 2007. Everyone expects all of us to be public advocates for the community just because we are in the community and when we say something that tweaks somebody, everyone jumps on the bandwagon and beats up on that individual. It happens here and it happened to Susan, I'm blunt, I'm not going to put up with that stuff.

Feel free to vehemently express your opinion but please keep it to what I said when referring to the opinion I expressed. I said I don't think CD/TV's should have the "SAME" rights as full time TS's. I did not say TS's should have special protection. I agree there should be protection from discrimination for all TG's. I guess I don't believe in hate crimes because I believe all crime is hateful so we don't need to distinguish what is more hateful. But weekend CD/TV's don't need access to women's restrooms on a daily basis for one simple example. The idea there need to be more laws above and beyond for the protection of those who publicly display their gender orientation is ludicrous. What do you want, laws to protect them from their own stupidity because they have no common sense on how to behave in public? Or do you want laws "just because"? We should live under the same laws anyone else must live by, nothing more, nothing less. The idea we should have the right to express ourselves is total insanity because it opens up the floodgates for everyone to express themselves, including perverts and flashers.

As for making an elitist statement, that is up for interpretation. I do not see myself as better than CD/TV's, only different. There are good and bad TS's just as there are good and bad CD/TV's. My goal in life is not to be the best or most successful TS out there. My goal is to be a nobody, just another gal walking down the street that 5 seconds after you have walked by you forget me. I find that I am able to live my life just fine pretty much under current laws. If you believe someone should be able to walk around looking like a back alley hooker without any consequences, have at it, and yes I am publicly against that behavior.

Hugs,
Marsha

1) Congratulations to someone from the transgender community being selected for a public post.
I don't care which flavour, in the long run I believe it can only help the cause.

2) Public figures are renowned for placing at least one foot in their mouth whenever they open it. Especially when they are relatively new to their post. This time they certainly did. But I expect there have been ten other comments made that were less controversial and not quoted, because they di not make 'good press'.
And the press in general are equally renowned for taking and quoting things out of context.

3) Anyone in public life who does not conform to everyone else's idea of what is 'normal', (call it what you will), is going to be put under the microscope, every step they take minutely observed, what they wear constantly criticised, every sentence they utter dissected for ulterior meaning and often twisted until it means what the critic wants it to say. They can't win.

Yes, the different sections and sub-sections of the LGBT community have different needs. And being so diverse, those vary so widely that it is very difficult to express who needs what from whom.
A simple example; How do you differentiate when it comes to public conveniences? I as fulltime TS and out (quietly) have no more desire than any other woman to see some hairy-assed biker (apologies to all hairies and bikers!) in a mini and fishnets invade the loo. But I also respect their right to dress in their preferred manner. So their needs and rights have to be taken into account when drawing up any form of guidelines for what is reasonable behaviour when relating to the majority. And so on down the line for all.

Bottom line, we are all on the same side, a minority still facing an uphill struggle to achieve equality for all LBGT people. Who are grouped together only to try and bring about a change, not because they are all alike, but because they are all diiferent in their own way, and that especially refers to the T, where there is more diversity than the other three put together. Every single one of us wants their own small variation on the general theme, acceptance. Until (and unless) that is acheived, the details can be put aside.

Vive la difference!

Dani, I did say I agree there should be protection from discrimination for all TG's. But just as Sue mentioned above, the LGBT umbrella covers a lot of people with numerous differences and therefore we need to be careful about how broad any given law is written. The perverts and flashers comment was not meant to mean TG's that behave in such a manner, but all people who behave immorally. All I'm saying is a poorly written law that is not specific can open the door for those who participate in that immoral behavior, to all of a sudden find laws that protect them.

Hugs,
Marsha

Immorality? what is immorality? That just depends upon which religious sect you belong to, laws should never be formed upon the basis of some stupid religious doctrine.

Good luck to Susan Stanton, Just because she was once TS doesn't mean it has to define her for the rest of her life.

Becca

I CANT believe you wrote that Marsha......."don't believe CD/TV's need the same rights and protections as TS's". And just why should they not have protection against discrimination & the like?. Surely they are members of the human race too & deserve such protection. To me, what you said smacks of snobbery in its worst sense..like saying TS is better than being a mere CD/TV. There should NO place in a civilised society for this kind of discrimination but it happens. What doesn't help is all this petty bickering, it helps no -one.

Me personally, i dont look down on or think i'm better than anyone, WHOEVER they may be.

LOL xxxxxxxxx
Anna-Marie



.

Geez Anna, I wish I had a big fricken highlighter pen to draw a fricken arrow to where I said "I agree there should be protection from discrimination for all TG's." for all the people who can't read what I wrote. I only said the same darn thing twice, this makes 3 times. Maybe we need laws to protect some people from themselves!

I said stuff like weekend CD's don't need the same rights as fulltime TS's like access to women's restrooms. If they go to an establishment that makes the women's restrooms available to them that is fine. In nearly all cases CD/TV's are self diagnosed and even many TS's are as well, so I ask how do you separate the real ones from the ones living in a fantasy world? How can anyone say TG's need special laws when there is no real way to designate who is really TG and who is not? Are we going to tattoo TG's like they did the jews in Nazi prison camps? And to be naive enough to believe our lawmakers are informed enough on the subject to make the laws workable, or to be naive enough to believe all people will hug each other, get along and do what is right is fricken downright stupid.

I don't believe anyone who puts on a dress should have legal protection in all circumstances. Just because they are wearing a dress doesn't make them a woman or a TG, that is the point i was trying to make. Everyone wants to assume only women or TG's will wear a dress, what I'm saying is perverts of all kinds will take advantage of poorly written laws. And what it appears many of you think is we should all be able to express ourselves the way we want. Ok that is fine, I hope those of you with children or wives, the next time they go into a restroom some pervert will come in and expose themselves to them. You can just tell your kids or wife, oh honey it is ok, they were just expressing themselves.

GEEZ!

Hi Marsha Ann-

Sorry for not having been able to respond sooner. I hope no one thought I was stirring the pot then left the kitchen. First of all let me say that I have the utmost respect for you as a person and I hope this discussion doesn't degenerate into personal attacks or, even worse, the dreaded TS-vs-CD argument.

Here is what you said in your previous post, "I said I don't think CD/TV's should have the "SAME" rights as full time TS's. I did not say TS's should have special protection." I'm really not clear on what that might mean. If not the same rights then what sort of rights? Fewer rights, more rights? From the sense of your post in general, I gather you feel that people who are fulltime (whether TS or not) deserve more protection against discrimination than those who, for whatever reason, are only able to go out occasionally. Can you explain to me why you feel that way?

In your reply to Anna you seem to employ the slippery slope argument that if TG's who only go out occasionally are allowed to use women's bathrooms then any old casual pervert in a frock would be allowed to go in there and expose themselves to our mothers, wives and daughters and no one could do anything about it. To me this smacks of the same argument that conservatives employ against gay marriage. If gays are allowed to marry one another then soon perverts will be marrying their dogs and having sex with them in public parks and no one will be able to do anything about it. There are already laws against indecent exposure and similar misdemeanors in every state, county and city in the land, the argument that someone who is 24/7 should have the right to use the facility of the gender they are presenting but someone who is only out for the weekend shouldn't, on the grounds that they may be some sort of perv and haul it out and waggle it, is just silly.

Out of curiosity, what exactly is a pervert, anyway? To me, perversion, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. To many straights, thank goodness things are changing, all of us who are differently gendered are freaks and perverts and should stay in the closet and be thankful for it. Anti-discrimination laws, hate laws, have been passed to protect people against attack and discrimination based simply on who or what they are or how they look. Yes, there are already laws on the books against assault, battery, harassment and so on, but most jurisdictions have found that they don't provide sufficient protection and have enhanced them to protect certain classes of people by race, sex, orientation, and in some places, gender presentation. We are moving forward.

Hugs...Joni Marie

OK Joni I will spell it out to you. CD's don't go looking for jobs presenting as the gender they were not born in. CD's don't get fired from their job like Susan Stanton did. CD's are less likely to get booted out of church like I was. CD's are not required to prove anything to anyone like TS's must do for gender changes. CD's don't have to battle insurance companies to have coverage for their gender condition like TS's do. I hope those are a few acceptable answers for you.

Next is your statement about there are already laws against indecent behavior and what have you. That was exactly my point. There are already laws and those laws are worthless because that crap still goes on. So thinking more laws will solve anything is ridiculous.

Next is I am conservative, I have consistently voiced that here. I do not believe in same sex marriage. I believe marriage is a religious term and the definition should stay between a man and a woman. However I believe civil unions should provide all rights a marriage would have.

For the FOURTH time now I did say I agree there should be protection from discrimination for all TG's.

As for what is a pervert? The Merriam Webster definition works for me " to cause to turn aside or away from what is good or true or morally right." I believe behavior that harms others is perverted and things like I described where a guy exposes himself to a child does cause psychological harm. You and others keep wanting to put words in my mouth that CD's are perverted. I have never said that, what I said is broad laws can be abused and open the door to perverted behavior. Those perverts are not necessarily TG. I think what is confusing you is your belief every guy in a dress is TG. People do all sorts of crap to get away with immoral behavior, I don't see putting on a dress to be beyond some of them. Therefore I could not agree with a law that says someone wearing a dress can use the ladies room. I want proof they are TG!

Anything else? I think too many of you get carried away trying to dissect every last word I say, geez. I am not the final word or the end all of all opinions, all I am doing is voicing my opinion. Maybe I should actually be honored that so many are concerned about my opinion.

Hugs,,
Marsha

Marsha Ann-

When you post on a thread you are opening yourself up to having your statements argued with and discussed, that's what the forums are for, it's the nature of the beast. Myself I am an atheist, a humanist and a liberal and proud of it, so there is little room for argument (in the formal sense) or discussion between us since there appears to be little or no common ground. I respect your right to your opinions while I may not respect the opinions themselves. Before this becomes any more heated, I am bowing out, since there's no point in discussing an issue with someone who states that a position is their opinion and therefore inviolate.

As always, best wishes to you, have a pleasant day.

-Joni Marie

Thank you Joni, I will always respect you as well. I can understand where a lot of views come from and in the perfect world they sound just fine. Unfortunately I don't believe we quite live in the perfect world that allow simple solutions to the problems TG's face. I don't always enjoy playing the devils advocate but I think all too often we look for easy answers.

Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha
How does a person prove themselfs to be TG before going to the bathroom?
Also using that definition of a pervert, who decides what is good & moral conduct?
Trust me a very large number of people would never let us be on the street since they think our lives are perverted by our gender issues.

To be honest I know what your talking about. But to a lot of people that don't have the understanding mind, gender & sex are the same things. I think that is why we will allways have a hard time getting acceptance.

Why when you express your opionion do you sound so angry?

Joni,

I have to defend Marsha in that what she SAID in her initial post was: "...I don't believe CD/TV's NEED the same rights and protections as TS's who live fulltime as the other gender. " ....NOT "deserve".

I don't disagree with Marsha's statement either. The TS's degree of immersion in the female livestyle demands activities that are not required by other TG's. Their basic survival depends on these needs by their very nature. I didn't see where she said "deserve". Furthermore a "right" is not a "need" all the time. I have to say that the need to work and eat is more important than my need to use a specific restroom rather than having to travel to another one if I am out for the evening en femme. This is not to say that I don't feel that non-TS TGs have needs and rights, just that need may not always be as necessary as it is for a full-time immersed TS. It's also true that a TG/TS person who is raped in a men's room is in more need of using a ladies room than a woman is in need of not having a TG/TS, person presenting as female, use the ladies room. Shock and Awe does not trump Rape and Beating......or Murder.

If anyone expects a quick and workable solution, you have not paid attention to school bussing the last 60 yrs.

Thank you all, ladies, for keeping an emotional and heated discussion within the bounds of good manners.

Good questions Karen. I am more than happy to answer them the best I can.

How does a person prove themselfs to be TG before going to the bathroom?

Exactly my point Karen. So all these people claiming we need various rights for TG's, how do you prove they are TG. It is not as simple as everyone tries to make it out to be. I would think in order for anyone to qualify for these special rights some of you want for TG's that there would have to be a way to identify who qualifies for those rights. What is so hard about that to understand.

Also using that definition of a pervert, who decides what is good & moral conduct?

Uhmm, society? Last I noticed it wasn't generally OK to run around naked in the streets or for guys to flash their privates. Have I missed something, are those now allowed somewhere.

Simply put, education is what will eventually change societies' idea of what TG's are really about. Laws regarding TG's will have little impact educating society. People tend to be apathetic to changes that they don't perceive as effecting them. Therefore the status quo remains.

Why when you express your opionion do you sound so angry?

Angry? I guess that is interpretation. I am actually a rather happy person. As I see it I am extremely fortunate to have made it to where I am with my family completely intact, a successful business and every reason to look forward in life in a positive way. Do things upset me though, you bet. Like repeating four times above that I did say I agree there should be protection from discrimination for all TG's, yet one after the other I keep getting questioned on it.

Lots of hugs,
Marsha

P.S. Thank you Wendy for actually reading what I said.