I was amazed to read that a moderator on another forum has been given a vagina in a UK hospital after going through a UK gender clinic. I have been reading his posts for over two years and not once have I seen anything that seemed to be written by a female - on the contrary the whole tone, language and content of the posts was like you'd hear between a gang of men after a few pints of beer in a pub on a Friday night...not that I've ever been in a pub on a Friday night...not a single mention of fashion, relationships, hopes, dreams, or anything like we read on TW. He's the one who just a few months ago banned me from the forum after I had chided him for typing the line ' I've got the balls to stand up to officials, I gave them a good f******, etc...he didn't seem to think that that was not the sort of thing women say...and now he's got a vagina.
And this morning he claims to have post menstrual depression after having to give up th ehormones fo rjust TWO WEEK!? befor e and after the op? What he has is withdrawal symptoms. But only two weeks off? Most surgeons say off for four weeks pre-op and several post-op...
Amazing.

P.s Don't bother telling me to refer t him as she as I just refuse to see the guy as female.

Rose, without knowing anything about this person except your description, I could not think of them as female either. I must admit, it all sounds rather odd and strange. Either someone is full of it, or the 'experts' have proven once again that they know very little about this condition.

Just my two cents.

Nikki

You are right on both counts Nikki.

In the UK it is possible to get through the whole process simply by turning up for your appointments Dressed and giving the right answers, weaving a little story of a past into them.

In between, it is not necessary to appear female at all.. You do not need to wear anything other than male clothes, don't have to have a job or even interact with anyone, male or female. They are very trusting and believe virtually all they are told. Those who make the decisions make no checks, and do not speak to anyone who may know you or what you are like beyond the doors of the clinic.

I believe I could tutor any guy, provided he is not a total idiot built like a gorilla, and get them onto the table for surgery within a reasonable period of time. And I don't think I am alone in this, I'm sure many genuine TS' could do the same.

The reason I say this is because I know people who have done almost exactly as I describe.
Unemployed as they barely consider taking what the PC crowd derogatorily describe as female jobs, sitting at home all day playing war games online, their aspirations for a partner confined to a natal female, and generally exhibiting most of the traits of the male of the species regarding cooking and cleaning and tidying and all the other little niggles that so infuriate the female. Just go out with the girls from work - prime complaint is all about their men!

And yes, they will be full of themselves, another often exhibited trait, pride.

What a shame Sue when other far more deserving cases get passed over. I can't believe you don't have to evidence anything to prove you really are living as a female, what a nonsense! The whole point is to prepare you for your life ahead and yet they have no checks in place to ensure you really are living as you say you live. It's unbelieveable!

I feel so sorry for those women who are doing everything properly and yet are still way down on the waiting list. How depressing.
Something really needs to change there. For one, get some checks in place to ensure people are committed about transitioning and two, consider employing a TS who has been through it themselves as an 'advisor'. They may not necessarity have the medical credentials but they are more likely to spot a 'ringer' from what I can figure.

How sad.

Nikki

Yes that`s me Nikki,I`m one of those women I`ve been on the waiting list for over a year and hav`nt seen anyone yet,apart from a phycologist at my local hospital just to check I`m not insane.....lol.I rang the clinic a few weeks ago and they said I could be waiting 3 yrs!!.I am working and living as female 24/7,so it is very frustating to hear stories like this when i am still having to wait!!!..........GGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!

Mmm. What a very strange guy he must be.

Nikki, I'm surprised there are'nt more stringent measures in place as well - 'though not disbelieving you Sue!

Michelle, are you referring to Charing Cross? They tell me their average first appointment is a 7 month wait. (And thats exactly jhow long I would have had to wait, I have a first appointment early December). I would certainly complain if I had to wait up to 3 years - 7 months is far too long as it is!

Much love

Rae xx

If anyone has done any background checks on me over the last 10yrs, I am totally unaware of it.

Whatsisname at CX says he got hold of my Navy records, but despite repeated requests he never let me see them, though he had said I could. Non of the 7 pyschs seem to even talk to each other, let alone anyone outside. And I think that you would have to be asked/informed if enquiries were to be made at one's place of work...

6 months+ seems about right for a CX appointment, then 6 months between them fo a couple of years. We are lucky down here, there is a much shorter list to see someone, though to see the consultant will take about a year before the first visit. Overall it will be 2-3 years from first visit to seeing the surgeon. Provided you ain't fat! LOL

The circumstances I described before were using a combination of three individuals lifestyles, though all are very similar.

Hi Rae,No the the clinic I have been referred to is the Porterbrook clinic in Sheffield,as this is the closest one to where I live.It looks an amazing place once you get in,but they only have limited numbers.They only take on new patients when they have discharged one.I`m going to see my local GP for a check up next months,so I will see if she can do anything about it.

Hiya, I'm really sorry for this post but i couldnt let it pass.

How one talks, writes or behaves has absolutely no bearing on how feminine someone might feel. I'm sorry, but I feel this person is being judged by the stereotypes that are perceived by the person who is doing the judging.

I know GGs who burp, fart, bite cans of beer and down them in one and so on. They might not be feminine but they are definitely girls.

As transsexuals, we all struggle to receive acceptance and validation from the whole world. I just think it is despicable that one of our own can write another off just because they dont meet certain criteria. If anyone believes that transsexuals or any other peer group should meet particular criteria to be classed as acceptable then there are some good ideas on how to achieve this from the fascist nazis.

Anyone has the right to change gender and everyone has the freedom to do so. The psychologists are there to ensure there are no psychological disorders and to help the individual go through a process to ensure they really want to change.

There are people I like and people I dislike. There are people I am drawn to and people I avoid. I keep all this stuff to myself.

Rose, sorry for this antagonistic post, but I think you are out of order! To call another transgender woman a man, thats just so low!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you so out of order!

Penny

I must admit I'm surprised at the reaction to my post. I really did expect far more if not all to be like Penny's.

But Ok I'll admit to being slightly out of order but as the other replies show it is common knowledge that many people who get vaginas are not female so as theperson has got a GRC then they may consider themself female. Note I'm using they not she.

As someone noted elsewhere when she went toThailand for surgery there were several very definite males getting vaginas so a person doesn't have to be female, present or live and work as female to get one.

Now it may be that this person is delighted to have a vagina and will never want to have a reversal which is what brings out all the 'sex change is a waste of money' headlines but I really do think that this is a definite case of a man in man's body. I'm not saying this just because 'they' used the immortal line 'I've got the balls to stand up...I don't get f***** about...I kick a***' but because the entire posts over three years have been written by a male mind not a female one. I have to say I don't think many genuine transwomen would write such stuff as the line quoted just 5months before getting genital surgery.

I may be wrong.

Michelle you have to ask your GP or do it yourself to write to the local PCT's Exceptional Cases/Clinical Priorities committees to tell them you need faster treatment...BUT DON'T USE THE D=DEPRESSION word or that wil set you back big time.

2 years full time RLE and have you got the GRC and new birth cert?

Tell them you need to get seen and quickly. If they can't get you seen locally in good time then you have a right to ask to be reffered elsewhere.

Remind them that the 18 weeks rules aply regardless of local interpretation.

If they still refuse to progress you then you need a lawyer with human rights experince to let them know that the Human Rights act article 8 apples to you.

Presmubaly you have written to the Ombudsman service to ask if they can intervene?

Every PCT is squandering a fortune daily on obese idiots and such so they can find a bit of cash to sort you out.

Rose, these people you talk about, do they refer to themselves as men? or women? When you refer to them as a man in a mans body, is that your judgement?

While I have no problem with either sex exhibiting characteristics generally associated with their opposite (be a bit of a hippocrit if I did ), I do consider it to be dishonest if you present to your doctor in a completely different manner to that which you present on all other occasions.

Those who take time off, spending half a day getting their clothes and hair and make-up just right are only fooling themselves. Then to change back when they get home, even if it is to immediately go out again where what they already had on is perfectly suitable?
We all know why it is sort of necessary - the doctors only see what is on the surface, and if it looks like a duck...

I am very 'WYSIWYG' !!!

Not to tar everyone with the same brush but I do think some people have forgotten what a tongue is for. Look, free yourself of your prejudices and you will be a much happier person for it.. We don't only emerge from a specimen jar as some people like to think.

Thanks Michelle. Bizarrely, my nearest GIC is 10 miles from my home in Dorset. Eminently qualified and run by a transsexual. But my PCT doesn’t have it on their service supplier list and so prefer to dispatch me to Charing Cross on a two hundred mile+ round trip to a place I have to wait 7 months for an appointment. I can go locally almost on a next day basis – the transgendered are still a little thin on the ground down here… what a %$£”^ silly system. I am fortunate in having a GP that’s 100% supportive and we’re doing our own thing whilst we wait on the Gods of CC.
Penny and Cristine, good points. I guess it’s so easy to try and see the world as black and white without fully taking in the multitude of grey. I guess I can be a little guilty of that sometimes. Or, as I prefer to say, this girl reserves the right to change her mind…
Porscha, if I’m reading your interesting phraseology right, I think I agree with you.

Much love

Rae xx

Isn't it often the case that people exhibit certain characteristics in an attempt to camoflage what they are really feeling? Does the person Rose was originally referring to use crude and masculine language because she feels vulnerable and scared? Is it an attempt to integrate with a peer group to which she knows she doesn't belong? Perhaps she needs to be given time?
Balancing your physical appearance, your mannerisms and your psychological well-being is pretty difficult, I suspect even for those who have never had to give their gender a moment's thought.

Rose, Penny, and the rest, ........... sadly I know of such a person who for the most part , Bought her way through the system here in Arizona . She ran a couple of usof within a support group on account of the fact that we wouldn't bow to her politics. Meanwhile , we started yet annother support group herein , she told prospective members the following . She told everyone who decided to come to our group would be then stricken from the membership in THEIR group ! She then decided to Buy her way throug asurgeon in Arizona and she came back to Richmond Virginia to " Hit on the Lesbians whom she knew ". By the way , I have these ladies testimonny and I can prove what i'm talking about .
I'ts really said as the Lesbans here refered to her as " Man in A dress ". Yes, she broughta lot of this on herself as she would swagger about with a cigarette dangling out of her mouth and cuss worse than a sailor on the Billiard tables ! The more she drank , the worse it got ! I have to tell ya'all , I quit going anywhere around this person as I didn't want anyone associating me ith that knd of rude and crude behavior .
Curently , she now resides in California . I say good riddens , I hope she never returns because wehave enough to contend with without her behavior causing us to look like a bunch of drunken slobs. I won't mention her name ecause first, I'm a lady and second , it violates the forum rules ! Ellen S

It's less about the behaviour of an individual, as that varies tremendously, in fact I'm sure a lot of my pastimes would be seen as 'male orientated' by a lot of the girls here. What I find totally wrong about it is the dishonesty and deception involved in such cases, that is the issue.

Michelle - I hope you get something moving along soon, I can only imagine your frustration but unlike some, as least you are living your life as you intend to post op. Fingers crossed that you get that call soon.

Nikki

Well, Michelle, your phycologist would be checking your prokaryotic forms known as blue-green algae or cyanobacteria. Seems like a strange way to determine whether you should be cleared for transition, but it IS the NHS and they have done strange things before. I can not imagine how the presence or absence of photosynthetic life forms would qualify you for SRS, but.....I guess it's as good as the RLE requirements.

Sorry, hon, but after I picked myself up off the floor and stopped coughing I just had to post this. Hugs. Of course you meant to type psychologist. Put it down to breathing too much formaldehyde in biology labs 40 yrs ago. I still have trouble eating tuna fish after dissecting sharks.

Ellen,
I'll bet you are talking about the FAN Clinic in Richmond.

If you care to scroll down this forum you'll discover a thread entitled 'To be a Woman'. Might I suggest that some of you read it and think about the content!?When you've done that you can come back to this thread and carry on sounding off if necessary!


Lynn

Always the problem in a forum. Most of the time we can only react to what has been said - general debate - and often without taking time to think - my normal state!.

Cristine, I can't disagree with: 'But I do find it strange that SHE has a vagina now and people are still refering to her as a HE or IT... Who is to say who is more entitled to SRS or not'.

In truth, we can't.

Rae xx

Wendy, please, stop! I can only laugh so much...!

Rae xx

This thread reminds me of one I started sometime ago about "what is feminine?" I was criticized for bringing it up in the first place as if the answer was "duh, everyone already knows the answer." Will do they? I think Penny was quite right to say earlier here who are we to judge.

As for this individual pulling the wool over the psychologists eyes, my experience has been with two psychs, one psychiatrist who I saw first, then my current psychologist. In neither case did I ever feel I had to convince anyone of anything. I believe who you are usually shows through in person. Phone calls and internet chat often incompletely portrays a person's character.

And as for the "man" this thread is about, there are other possibilities that haven't been brought up. One is this person could be a homosexual in denial. Many men are horrified at the thought of being gay or even identified as gay. Nevertheless they continue to be attracted to men. Really the same genetic argument we see ourselves in. It is not a choice but something we are born with. The thing is some of these people instead of accepting they are gay go the other direction and believe they must be female if they are attracted to guys, so they follow the course convincing themselves they are transsexuals. Just another possibility.

Each of us is born with a unique personality. I believe identifying and accepting yourself as transsexual is traumatic. Often we have heard so much derogatory information about "these" people that we feel we must defend ourselves. I believe that is where most of the male traits end up showing through. So Rose could be right about this person, but then again, maybe not.

Hugs,
Marsha

Christine,

whether you read that thread or not is entirely up to you. I merely mentioned it as a reaction to some of the more dogmatic and narrow-minded statements and attitudes which have surfaced in this one.


ciao

Lynn

Biased as it might seem, I am with Cris on this one, make the most of what you have, set your mind on achieving your own goals, do not deride other people if they fail to come up to what you consider your standards of what life should be. Loving the bit about pussy envy.......very adroit......Have not made my mind up yet. contented with the way things are at the moment....does that make me a man as well......if anyone wants to learn a few expletives drop me a line.....progressing from being a tranny to a post op transexual takes a lot of balls.

Cassandra

I've a few things to say on this discussion - I'm not sure they bring me down on one side of the argument or the other.

On the person whose case started the debate, one thing to consider, it that person happier within herself with a vagina? If so, then we in this community should perhaps not be so quick to judge....

But I counter that with the following observations...

TGism isn't yet widely accepted in the wider community as a 'real condition'. For me it seems real enough, not just becase the way I feel but because of the research I've read about TS's brain shape being so similar to their 'internal gender'... but that reseracgh isn't widely known yet. We all accept there are streotypes on gender and that no one should have to conform to stereotypes. But I can understand why TS people who do seem to be close to societies perception of their gender can be somewhat ambivelent about others who seem to be, to coin a pharse ' a bloke in a dress' (or the FtM equivelent). Because such people can get noticed more, they end up being the 'public face of transsexualism', and as a result the acceptance of TSism by the wider public is going to be most effected by seeing such people. the feeling is going to be that Transsexuals are 'freaks'

Please not its not me saying this; Its just how I think people with be perceived by the wider public.

As I see it, how each person is judged is something of a compromise because how s/he wants to be and societies perceptions. The latter can be changed, but only slowly, and the feeling is always going to be that a person displaying stereotypical male behaviour, but in female clothing is going to 'set back' that progress towards acceptence.

That doesn't stop any individual' right to be as they are, but does, i think, inform some of the views expressed here.

The thread "To be a Woman............." is down near the bottom of this (General) forum-exercise for your scrolling finger! It dates from May 2009.....and the link still works(!)


Lynn

I've been following this thread for a while and feel I need to say something. As discussed in "My Gender Workbook" by Kate Bornstein gender isn't binary. There is more than male or female but many levels in between.

Personally, I believe gender is dimensional with several axis. The thing we need to remember is that online posts really only show one dimension of a person's gender, leaving the rest of dimensions up to guess work. Based on this we have no real evidence against the woman this thread is focused on.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to quote one of the practical parts of the bible:

"Judge not lest ye be judged"

First and Last Post. Nice mix of views...those who self identify has TS see things differently to TG.

Got lots of responses which I think is what forums are all about...shame I get banned from so many.. LOL

My next new thread will be on whether or not the ready availabilty and addiction to pornography is fuelling the surge in sales of vaginas..

It seems that humans have a proclivity for dividing the world into boxes. T or F, In or Out, Male or Female.....now TS or Not-TS. Some things just are not an either or. I will resist till the day I die trying to restrict the behavior of someone else as I have been restricted. Human Rights are for Everyone. Live and Let Live.

Hi Cassandra,an interesting debate and on the whole I agree with your attitude but perhaps the question of dishonesty seems the real issue here;as for 'taking a lot of Balls', Cassandra,well-only at the most,two I should think! Love the thread about 'Pussy Envy'-thought I had coined it,hugs'n stuff-Nina Papillon-xx

Yes, let's stay away from the labels!! Arrrghh!!!

I don't even know under what category I would put myself if I had to, much less anyone else trying to pin one on me! I'm just 'me', it's as simple as that.

This was actually a good example of how the forums should operate, lots of different opinions, some people saying a lot more than others, viewing things from a different point of view, perhaps based on personal experience, but no personal attacks against those stating their views, which is as it should be.

So.......................let's see what the next thread brings Rose.

Nikki

I do not object to the use of labels and terminology for the purposes of discussion and comparison. They are useful tools.

What I object to is insistence that one choose between them when assigning behavior expectations. Never Again!

This has been an interesting thread to read and a variety of opinions. Maybe we could all learn more about the human nature of being judgemental. Everyone is judgemental, I guess its all down to how one reacts to those feelings. As a comunity we reach to receive acceptance in the wider world, and for the most part, for me, its been excellent. I continue to be miffed why particular individuals seem to be hyper-critical of peers when we are all just wanting to be accepted and normalised by everyone. Does anyone else see the irony in this?