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Who DOES he think he is??

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  • I see two can play at that game eh minako. I HATE fallin out with people & i can see in some ways you're right about a lot of things. Its just when i hear people slagging off the scots, it makes me sad becuase the ordinary Scottish people are a decent lot and they dont deserve this especially because of one man's decision, however well meant it was.

    Truce??

    lol xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Anna-Marie



    "When the world gets in my face i say HAVE A NICE DAY"
      August 26, 2009 12:37 AM BST
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  • I have yet to see anything in American publications bad mouthing the Scottish people. The only thing being said is this was a political maneuver rather than a compassionate one and that MacCaskill and his Scottish members in parliament are to blame. So if you are reading anything else in your papers about criticizing regular Scottish people, it is your own media doing it for propaganda purposes.
    Hugs,
    Marsha
      August 26, 2009 3:42 AM BST
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  • Truce, hon.

    We have more in common as sisters than we do our respective countries, sometimes....

    Luv 'n big hugs,

    Mina
    Living as the woman I am!
      August 26, 2009 6:59 AM BST
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  • I'm with Porscha here.There were and are serious doubts as to whether Lockerbie was the work of Libya at all.By all accounts there were strange goings-on at the trial.The defence was denied access to documents and witnesses in favour of the accused,the investigation apparently ignored evidence pointing to possible alternatives such as Iran , the evidence as such against Libya was extremely circumstantial and anything else than watertight.etc etc etc.In short,the US had decided from the start that Libya was responsible and anything pointing strongly to Iran or any other Country/group was ignored.There was a very good chance that the impending appeal would have had some very awkward questions to answer....with the possibilty of the man being released as innocent.When national interests and political expediency are involved the truth is usually the first thing to suffer.
    I don't doubt that London and Washington made their views known beforehand but Scotland has,and has always has had,its own judiciary and,since the he was tried under Scottish law by a Scottish court,only the Scottish Government could take the decision to release him.Time alone will tell how rapidly terminal his prostate cancer is.

    Lynn
    "It ain't what you do,it's the way that you do it............and that's what gets results!"
      August 26, 2009 4:12 PM BST
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  • Porscha,
    I seem to remember reading that it was a political deal between Libya and the US which sent El-Megrahi to that extra-territorial Scottish court in Zandvoort(?).( The reasoning behind the extra-territorial courrt escaped me then and it escapes me now).In other words,El-Megrahi was just a-possibly innocent- pawn put up by Gaddafi in a deal which got the US and others off Gaddafi's back.It wouldn't surprise me at all if was told to "take the rap,help us out of this spot of bother, and we'll see you and your family alright." Hence the,in some peoples eyes completely wrong,heroes welcome on Tripolis.

    Lynn
    "It ain't what you do,it's the way that you do it............and that's what gets results!"
      August 26, 2009 4:33 PM BST
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  • Marsha-you are so predictable! As half-Scots I am proud of the compassion shown to a dying man,presumably Marsha approved of the release of Pinochet.Half the victims of Lockerbie were British and devastation or even worse over a small border town was terrible to see.Frankly I and a lot of my fellow Brits are sick of being pushed around by Amerika-the last country in the world to lecture any other on morality.Scotland swept its side of the road-it is tragic the praise showered on the man I agree though-well done Scotland and shame on the Quisling UK government! Nina Papillon
      August 26, 2009 4:54 PM BST
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  • Not sure how you were able to extrapolate that Nina. I believe in basic laws, a crime is a crime, a sentence of a year is a year, a sentence of life imprisonment is life. Give me a break on compassion, it is already a given that someone sentenced to life in prison will at some point become terminally ill, maybe something better would be shoot them and put them out of their misery, just don't set them free from jail. And once again I said this has nothing to do with the Scottish people, just the politicians who made an unwise decision. So how you turn this into a dislike for Scots or Brits I just don't know. Geez, I'm half English.
    Hugs,
    Marsha
      August 26, 2009 6:05 PM BST
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  • It seems that it was just one 'Politician' that made this decision, as many others in the Scottish parliament were also appalled by this . I would also point out that within the uk it is normal for a prisoner to serve as little as a third of a given sentence, being released on parole after proving "good behavior" whilst in prison. this means that a life sentences can be as little as 8 years if the judge didn't indicate a minimum tariff.

    Huggles

    Becca

    Ps. Marsha being compassionate doesn't mean shooting them, thats not how civilized people behave.
      August 26, 2009 7:10 PM BST
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  • Ok Marsha-suppose its time to put my musket and tricorn away-shoulder arms.One does get one's knickers in a twist.Seriously though,girls,we have a massive problem here,Ilive close to a large Muslim community most of whom are nice,but when I see women in Burkhas in themiddle of Bradford or Leeds all my 'Liberal' views go out the window or perhaps left/right doesnt aspply here-I think it is going to test all our socalled 'values' and I fear we are losing it and even playing into the hands of theW'a habists .By the way,yanks,thanks for all the spam AND the P-38's,P40's-the P51'S were OK also but needed the Balls of the Merlin,love y'all-Nina Mc.Papillon
      August 26, 2009 7:24 PM BST
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  • Marsha,

    Your comments about the rise of Hitler and the Socond World War are totally unnacceptable.I doubt whether anyone on TW was around in the 1920's and 30's-you and I certainly weren't. It's very easy to apportion blame with hindsight and to lose sight of the possibility that the responsible politicians in Europe at that time were unable to act otherwise.The trauma of the First World War-the carnage in the trenches in Flanders-meant that there was next to no political or popular support in France and the UK,or anywhere else for tjhat matter, for any renewed military operation against Germany.The view from the USA ,given the couple of thousand miles distance,may well be different but, despite the presence of GIs at the end in 1918,it wasn't your country which had to bear the brunt of the destruction and carnage.It is also doubtful as to whether the UK and France before 1939 would have been militarily able to do very much to inhibit Hitler's plans.The USSR was more or less a pariah state up until 1941 or so and in any case,the prevalent anti-communism of the time would have been a severe hindrance to any attempts to rein in Hitler and his war plans.

    As far as the El-Meghari story goes,you seem to skip over postings which don't suit your point of view.Let me make this clear-I AM NOT A SUPPORTER OF LIBYA,ALI MOHMED EL-MEGHARI or anyone else in this matter.What I do not like is politically ordered 'justice' supported by propaganda a la 'Fox News'(USA) and 'The Daily Mail' (UK) and the whole Murdoch press empire.The truth is,however,that the case stank from the very beginning,and there would seem to be good reasons for believing that there has been a,politically desired,miscarriage of justice here.If,as may well be the case,neither Gaddafi's Libya nor the libyan agent El-Meghari had anything to do with Lockerbie,what right does anyone have to keep an innocent man,sick or otherwise,in gaol?Because it is or was politically expedient at the time? Or is there no such thing as wrongful imprisonment in your book?


    Have a nice day!

    Lynn

    "It ain't what you do,it's the way that you do it............and that's what gets results!"
      August 26, 2009 7:37 PM BST
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  • **shakes head**

    Anna-Marie, hon--

    Didn't we call a truce?

    Ladies--

    We all have opinions. That includes me; I am one opinionated b*tch and not afraid to admit it.

    However, I'm also all for not getting too nasty here. An opinion is just that...doesn't matter who you are or what you do. That includes Rupe Murdoch. I don't always agree with Fox News...but I don't march lockstep with CNN or MSNBC, either. An opinion is like maguro--some is good, and some stink. (Don't know what is maguro? Look that up in your Funk and Wagnalls, kids.)

    I keep seeing "civilized" tossed about on this thread. I'm all for keeping it that way.

    Luv 'n hugs,

    Mina
    Living as the woman I am!
      August 26, 2009 7:56 PM BST
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  • Hang on Lynn, when I talked about WWII I did not say "Europeans", I said "people around the world." And that comment was only directed at what I felt was a short sighted decision to release this guy, nothing more. I think a lot of people here need to reread my comments and see everything I've said was directed towards MacCaskill, not Scots, not Brits, not Europeans, and for that matter not Libyans. As for his guilt or innocence, none of us are privy to the details and the last ruling in court was guilty, therefore if you have information of value that can lead to his innocence don't preach to me, take it to the courts.

    Lynn, I see you are from Germany, please don't take anything I said about WWII to mean I have anything against the people of Germany. What happened, happened. The people I blame if you want to call it that are the politicians that we are led to believe will act in our behalf but so often act for personal gain or special interests, not the people. That happens here in the U.S,. and pretty much routinely around the world. I believe that is wrong and I believe this entire topic is based on special interests, not the interest of the people.

    Rebecca, the shoot them and put them out of their misery comment was totally meant tongue in cheek. But I do stand firm that I feel a sentence should have meaning behind it, without that you lose any opportunity for a sentence to be a deterrent, let alone truly dangerous individuals need to be kept away from society.

    And for you gals around the world, feel free to say what you want about the idiots we have running our country, you won't find me defending them, lol.

    Hugs,
    Marsha
      August 26, 2009 9:43 PM BST
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  • Yes Minako we certainly did, its just a shame certain people can't let it drop. Life's too short to be bitching about something we can't change.


    Lol xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Anna-Marie
    "When the world gets in my face i say HAVE A NICE DAY"
      August 26, 2009 11:34 PM BST
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  • 734
    This is a difficult thread to both read and to comment on. Clearly an emotive subject on both sides of the water.

    I can understand the OP to a degree. The other night on Newsnight we had an American chappie - forget his name and position, older chap with a bizarre walrus moustache - getting all huffy and red in the face with indignation. How dare Scotland release this man? Sorry, how dare you come on our news and try to rebuke us? Rude to say the least.

    Well, my point of view is quite simple. Some could almost call it Christian. I personally think that it is totally inhumane for anybody - irrespective of who or what they've done - to be incarcerated if they are medically proven to be terminally ill with a short time to live. No ifs. No buts. It simply is not right.

    Obviously - and not surprisingly - we now have debate over how ill this guy is. Ho hum.

    Whilst I'd be the first to admit the UK - and Scotland [bearing in mind Scotlands system of Law is different to the rest of the UK] - are too lenient. A life sentence should mean until such a time as the criminal is physically debillated by age to offend again. Not exactly rocket science.

    But our good friends in America, I find your attitude to justice far too oppressive. Almost to the point of brutality. I choose my words carefully and really do mean brutal as in animalistic, vindictive and nasty. Sorry. I don't wish to fall out with anyone - my sister is American, my cherished niece and nephew have dual citizenship and Marsha you know I love you to bits! But is your system of being solely punitive the right way? I really am not convinced. That said, of course, we could do with a little toughening up!

    And, just to feed the conspiracy theorists, there was that rapturous 'heros' welcome. Would Gaddafi really have given such a welcome to a guy who cost him about $1.7billion? Or would he have taken him straight to the types of jail you or I really wish never to see? Just a thought...




    www.raekelcou.com
      August 27, 2009 12:51 AM BST
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  • 2 2627
    Now knowing what you all think of us here in the US I don't feel very welcome anymore.
    Anna it's you that suprises me most.
    I thought the people here were online friends. I won't make that mistake again.
    <p>Karen Brad</p>
      August 27, 2009 2:51 AM BST
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  • Rae, sweetie--

    I'm not offended by your comments. I can tell you put some serious thought into your words. Yes, we Yanks have a brutal system, comparatively speaking. Yes, we have a recidivism rate that reeks. Is our way the right way, or the only way?

    No on both counts. Having said that, however, I feel that it works here in the States. It won't work in Europe, or parts of Asia. That's why we are all different, luvs.


    Karen, hon--

    You're entitled to your opinion, same as I am. Your friends here are indeed your friends; we shouldn't all agree all the time. Genetic girls don't! (Ever watch a group of GG's looking at the same outfit? You think I'm b*tchy....)

    Like I said above: Is our way the right way, or the only way? No on both counts. But it works for us. We shouldn't be surprised when others don't understand. America is not exactly everyone's cup of chai right now; we have done much damage to our standing in the world. Besides--America, after all, is a grand experiment, one that many said would never work. It's our differences that make us unique, dear.

    Take some time and think about this: These people we are online with, these are our sisters. We all have more in common than national boundaries. We are all TG/TS, and thus, have far more in common than our governments do. We all want to live as the women we are becoming.


    Everyone else:

    I care for you all. You are my friends, my sisters. We have much to learn from one another. And, I respect your opinions, even if I don't agree. I ask you respect mine as well.

    Luv 'n hugs,

    Mina
    Living as the woman I am!
      August 27, 2009 7:39 AM BST
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  • 734
    Minako, I agree with every word you've just said. And the truest part has got to be 'don't understand', I think that's the key issue here. Neither side can quite understand the reactions of the other.

    Karen, you surprise me. Having read this thread through I find nothing to make you feel unwelcome. The debate may be a little heated at times but it is clearly an emotive subject. And please don't forget that the coldness of text belies the warmth of the person typing...

    Much love to you both

    Rae xx
    www.raekelcou.com
      August 27, 2009 11:39 AM BST
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  • Those of you in the UK with a fiver to spare could do worse than go to:

    www.private-eye.co.uk

    where you can download Paul Foot's special report from 2001-'Lockerbie -The Flight from Justice'
    (theoretically........I've just 'phoned the 'Eye' 'cos their sales checkout only accepts UK addresses and apparently they've got technical problems with their downloads at the moment).

    Paul Foot was an investigative journalist in the UK (for youse in the USofA in the same class as 'Watergate Woodward & Co) who followed the investigation and the trial and picked up on the incongrueties,the questionable,even heresay nature of much of the evidence,the forbidden lines of enquiry etc etc.

    How many possibly innocent people are sitting in Death Row at the moment?


    Lynn
    "It ain't what you do,it's the way that you do it............and that's what gets results!"
      August 27, 2009 12:22 PM BST
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  • You may be quite right Lynn. It is hard to say whether or not if this guy was just a scapegoat. And if he was a scapegoat, why him and who really did it? I think we are back to the politics of it all where things are done for special interests, not the people whom they were put in position to represent.

    In the end we are left with too many questions which allow people to line up on both sides of the discussion as we have here. It is human nature to support your own side, without saying who is right or wrong. As moderator of this forum I had thought about editing or even deleting some of the posts but I chose not to. There has been nothing different in this thread than so many others here at TW or any forum. It is a topic of opinion and I think it is good that we are able to express our opinions here. Some posts did get a little too personal which I hope in the future we can refrain from. But the bottom line is express your opinions.

    Hugs,
    Marsha

      August 27, 2009 12:36 PM BST
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  • For rather, such an emotive subject, encompassing national loyalities, the requirement for perceivable justice, the sovereignty of national goverments to determine their own policies, I think in the main this thread has been conducted in a very lady like and
    civilised manner, even if heated at times. Just goes to prove that in the world order of things trannies seem to have an overiding infinity with each other.

    xxXCristineXx
    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      August 27, 2009 1:01 PM BST
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  • My last post on this subject...do not think for a second that Scotland wasn't in touch with Washington DC and 10 Downing Street on this...to think otherwise is naive...

    It IS nice to see all the girls agree and disagree and no one get bloody...now if we were in a British pub, you can be assured the purses would be flying and more than one set of nails would be ruined! LOL

    Move on...

    Traci
    <p>Traci</p>
      August 27, 2009 4:02 PM BST
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  • Minako, I want to say that though our politics afre poles apart,that I appreciate the spirit in which you express them,in fact you and Marsha are the only 'Girls' to reply to my threads.Also you have made me think and Marsha has even changed my opinion somewhat on a TG issue. What worries me much is that I agree that we DO have a common enemy but its not something we can drop high explosives on from a great height. Sorry to pontificate but us Brits have much on our concience there-the Bomber Command offensive over Gemany in WW2 near constitutes a war crime in my opinion and I say this not with any leftie 'schadenfreude' as my father was aircrew on these terror raids and suffered with his comrades huge bouts of remorse and I understand the Canadian bombaimer died an alcaholic.The sufferings of our German enemies (who my old mans' crew didn't hate) is unimaginable and it is to the credit of the German people that they seem to bear us so little ill will. jEEZ-THAT SOUNDS HEAVY but I say this trying my damndest to keep up some sense of perspective in what I know that you girls with more conservative views share-that is the dire seriousness of this conflict-if there was such a thing as a Devil (say Screwtape!)he would be rubbing his hands with glee at confounding both liberal and neocon, of Christian and Jew and all shades of opinion between.
    Thanks for talking about the kind of girls we are becoming-that gives me a special kind of thrill-way to go! Hugs'n stuff,Nina Mc.Papillon-xx
      August 27, 2009 5:21 PM BST
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  • Oh oh oh-I've been speaking a foreign language for far too long......should be incongruities and hearsay ........dreadfully embarrassing........so sorry!

    As to who might be behind Lockerbie ,I think there was talk of evidence pointing to Syria .Then again don't forget Iran-which country shot down an Iranian civil airliner in Iranian airspace on a routine flight over The Strait of Hormuz a couple of months before Lockerbie?

    Wikipedia is interesting- Pan_am_flight_103 (or something similar!)



    Lynn
    "It ain't what you do,it's the way that you do it............and that's what gets results!"
      August 27, 2009 6:25 PM BST
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  • Arrrgggghhh...was going to let this slide and end my involvement with the thread and I am as compassionate for fellow humans as the next girl...BUT...

    My father flew B29s in WWII....15 mission life span for the crews on average...he somehow manged to get thru 25 alive...HIS take and I concur is regardless of the atrocities committed by the bombing raids, it did a lot to shorten the war and saved the lives of thousands of Allies, US, UK, Canadian, and Aussie boys that otherwise would have had to gone into each German city and fight hand to hand...he had 7 brothers, all of whom served and they were infantry...they DID land in Normandy and fight hand to hand in Bastogne and various Rhine crossings and then building by building inside Germany...most of them made it home alive too...two didn't.

    Britain did not start the war and in fact, it was Germany who began THEIR indiscriminate raids on the UK..the US was trying to avoid involvement at all costs, but as time went on, it became impossible to look the other way like so many European nations did while Hitler was gearing up in the 30s.

    So my point is this...and I do not care a bit what others think,, you fight fire with fire and you have every right, morally or otherwise, to defend yourself when provoked or threatened.
    The German leadership totally f*cked their people over, not once, but twice in the same generation. Now, hundreds of thousands of innocent German citizens lost their lives in these raids and it is a sad thing to note...that said, it also brought about a realization that the party was over...same held true for Japan. Without the nukes, Japan would have defended to the death their homeland...might have cost a million + lives! you tell me now if the awful deeds done by the allies were not justified? Tell that to my late grandmother who might have lost another 2 or 3 or more sons in a conflict we did choose to be a part of!

    War crimes??? My arse!!!

    So, if one chooses to look the other way and believe that mankind is going to mellow out and be a better place if we all just get along, I want a pound of whatever it is you're smoking...those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it...so unfortunately, if we let our guard down, there will be no shortage of psychos willing to take us down. Sad, but true...if you want to place post-war spin out here that the Allies were cruel and out of control, you've been duped by the media and liberal idiots who have the gall to rewrite history lessons. Auschwitz didn't exist? Armenian genocide never happened? Stalin didn't purge 30 million dissenters?

    Get real people....

    Traci xxxxx
    <p>Traci</p>
      August 27, 2009 6:26 PM BST
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  • Nina--

    The Screwtape Letters is a wonderful book. It should be required reading in High School.

    Disclosure:

    I had an uncle (God rest him) who was a pilot for American Airlines in the 1980's. I have another uncle who at that time was a pilot for what was then Republic Airlines (now part of Northwest.) He continues to fly as a private pilot for hire these days. I have an aunt who was a flight attendant for American as well.

    People lost their lives on that Pan Am flight, and ultimately, we all lost a very good airline, with a long, storied past.

    Do you suspect I was worried about a plane with a family member getting zeked out of the sky by some deranged lunatic for a few years?

    Further: Daddy went to Vietnam, as a navigator on US Navy flights. That's about all I know; he wouldn't--or couldn't, as he he top security clearances--talk about it for years, and it was only about six years ago he admitted that part of his health issues "might possibly" be related to Agent Orange. When he died, I had the honor of placing his medals in a display case. I could tell you what they were--but even his DD214 was not much help in telling me the "how" he got them.

    Vietnam was a long, ugly, mess.

    Perhaps all the above is what set me off on this thread. As you mentioned, the sufferings of others wends its way into our collective psyche and sets there and festers for years...or even decades. I suspect what Daddy saw in 'Nam--regardless of what other chemicals might have done--affected him far, far more than any of us knew or could know.

    Perhaps this is also why us Americans are so touchy about this. This was supposed to be a finally closed chapter.

    Looks like it wasn't, after all.

    Luv 'n hugs,

    Mina
    Living as the woman I am!
      August 27, 2009 6:28 PM BST
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