I have been following this thread with interest but have held back until I saw where it was going, as I am one of those who have had augmentation surgery and some laser facial hair removal through the National Health Service (NHS). (The laser treatment is restricted to a small number of sessions, after which I pay for it myself). As anyone who has read any of my blog will know, I am also waiting for further surgery. Not full SRS or whatever they are calling it now, but a much cheaper alternative. Once upon a time I was going ‘all the way’, but subsequent events have caused me to decide to take another route. I was initially referred about six years ago, and had to wait for about three years after that before they would allow me the laser or the augmentation, having then been on hormones for over five years. (And got virtually nothing ‘up top’ during that time).

I would like to say that I would willingly have forgone either or both if the choice was my cosmetics or someone else’s necessary operation. Certainly it was very important to me, but not at the expense of what could save someone’s life. Fortunately, that is not my decision; it rests with the Primary Care Trust (PCT) who holds the purse strings. I ask my GP, they discuss it with the psych’s, financing is requested and we wait. If it is approved, like mine was, it goes ahead. If not, it doesn’t. Period. And I would have accepted that decision. I am not so callous as to have forced them to expensively defend themselves, there are more deserving people out there.

With regard to both the laser and the augmentation, all I can say is that the effect on my ‘quality of life’ has been dramatic.
The laser has enabled me to face the world with so much more confidence, often without make-up, no danger of the dreaded ‘five o’clock shadow’, etc. etc. From when its effects were first noticeable, I started to hold my head up and look people in the eye, something I could never do before. I believe it contributed to me getting both my last two jobs, before which I was out of work. And they are better jobs with better pay, so in a way I am paying it back through higher contributions.
As for the breast augmentation, that has been just as amazing. Apart from the obvious, like my clothes fit properly, I can wear low-cut outfits, go swimming without fear of seeing a fillet bobbing along in front of me (yes, it happened more than once) and so on, again it improved my self confidence in public to the extent I can now stand up and train people at work, something unthinkable before.

My conclusion? Equality for both genetic females and trans girls should be maintained.
Yes, trans girls should be allowed augmentation surgery, only after hormones have been allowed sufficient time to achieve whatever they can, and only after assessment has shown that it is necessary for the patients wellbeing.
Exactly as it is for genetic females who have been ‘short-changed’ by nature, most of who also claim the same improvement in their own ‘quality of life’. And not all of them are accepted for enhancement.

Nikki, I agree, what you can see is more important that what you can’t, and that is the way I have approached everything.
And my thanks to Lynn Harvey for the link to the pictures – I can see my ‘after’, but cannot find a ‘before’, confirming the pain was worth it!

Hi everyone,
I need some input on which would seem to be more desirable: A: for a transwoman to be given breast implants to let her feel good about herself and help with passing on the streets, B: for a guy to be given testicle implants after operation for cancer of loss.
(Dannie this is merely coincidental to your recent arrival in Trannyweb).

A case is going to be heard in UK High Court next week over a TS being denied breast implants as the hormones hadn't produced much growth and the NHS refusing and saying boobs are non-essential.
I had to get implants cos mine hadn't grown much and under coats and jackets I juts did not have the necessary female chest and was getting lots of stares and comments on the street. Both men and women glanced at me, studied my chest then looked at my face and read me. (In Uk we have to wear jackets/coats for maybe 8 months of year so in practical terms I was getting the crap two-thirds of the time) immediately after getting the implants I noticed I walked down the street, men and women glanced at me and my chest and away without reading as though clearly seeing me as female...so I am sure that 'noticeable' boobs are important to give the overall effect of femaleness. Court case is over NHS saying lots of GGS have quite flat chests and don't ask for and wouldn't be allowed get implants funded by NHS so why should a TS?
So naturally, based on my own experience I think the NHS is wrong.
However, on that other TG site some of the 'TG/TS' are saying implants are not necessary and should not be funded. I would perhaps agree with this if the person was more towards a GG physically by being say AIS or one of the other definite intersexed one with very female face and body but for the typical TS who had to go through a typical male puberty and got the male bones, skull, beard, etc I think typical boobs like a typical GG would be essential.
However while surfing for info I came across the matter of testicle implants for guys who have lost them from disease, accident or never getting them in the womb. And I find that in fact quote: the absence of a testicle represents a psychologically traumatic experience in all ages of males!' I was glad I only had one and can't wait to get rid of the other but do guys really get so 'traumatised' over losing one? The NHS offers implants as a matter of course to guys who lose them - in exactly the same way they offer breast prosthesis to GGs who lose one to breast cancer etc.
What I think is that testicles are hiden and play no part in the overall visual maleness of a guy except when he is naked or perhaps if he is a keen and regular swimmer - UK is not really an outdoors country where men spend all months in swimming trunks on the beach!
Based on this I think the NHS case is down to the simple bigotry of the TS being seen as just a perv/queer/freak etc and a TS's boobs being some kind of strap on sex toy.
What does everyone think?

Are typically sized boobs essential to a TS? Is a flat chested TS allowed to feel the same 'trauma' as a guy losing a testicle? If guys get testicle implants and GGs get prostesis or implants after cancer should a TS be denied implants? Or is the refusal to give TS implants just discrimination and bigotry?

Rose

I think that the NHS should do a screening of those that wants the surgery, be it the males, females and transgendered. They should check whether or not an operation will make a significant improvement to their life. If a very passable transexual wants a breast implant for the sake of having bigger breast, i would say no, since it isn't required anymore than "ornamentation". Just like GGs that wants a breast implant, if she started with A cups, it doesn't make sense to give it to her unless the implant really does affect their social lives.

Denying a transexual breast implants because of the label is plain discriminatory. Everybody should have a fair chance at this. For most transexuals, a breast can make or break the look.

Hi Rose,

Sounds to me that a male dominated NHS has a bias favoring testicles for males over breasts for TS and GGs. Their own inadequacy, perhaps, is at the root....

Personally I'm happy with my breast forms.

Best,
Melody

Rose,
You have asked all sorts of questions and have supplied lots of pros and cons, definitely a complicated series of questions. Reconstructive surgery is often covered by insurance companies in the U.S. should a woman lose a breast to cancer. However, breast augmentation for the sake of larger boobs whether a woman starts flat chested or not is considered cosmetic surgery and not covered by insurance. So because there are women born with small breasts and they don't get free boob jobs, I don't see it as discrimination at all that a TS is owed larger boobs for the sake of having larger boobs. Basically, I don't think your NHS is required to make you a model so you will feel better about yourself, otherwise stand in line behind the other billion women who want to look like models.

As for guys getting replacement testicles, personally I believe the same reasoning should apply. If they were lost due to injury or illness, yes, reconstruction should occur. Otherwise it comes out of their own pockets. If they are being covered for any reason it is obvious that men make the rules so who wouldn't expect them to be in favor of guys.

And as for this being bigotry against TS. I don't think so. You are fortunate that your healthcare pays for your HRT which gives your body the ability to biologically grow breasts to your genetic potential. Beyond that I don't believe they owe you anything. If a TS wants bigger boobs, they can go buy a pair and stop waiting for someone else to pay for it.

Hugs,
Marsha

Hi Marsha,

" As for guys getting replacement testicles, personally I believe the same reasoning should apply. If they were lost due to injury or illness, yes, reconstruction should occur. Otherwise it comes out of their own pockets. If they are being covered for any reason it is obvious that men make the rules so who wouldn't expect them to be in favor of guys."

I agree with your point but I'm hard pressed to imagine a way a male could lose his testicles other than injury or illness. I guess he could have had them surgically removed previously.

Best,
Melody

Melody, that statement was to cover Rose's example of "for guys who have lost them from disease, accident or never getting them in the womb." I'm not sure you can call not getting them in the womb an accident or an illness. I'm not familiar with reasons a man might not have fully developed testicles but it sounds reasonable that it could occur.
Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha
as expected you missed the point of my arguments which was that testicles have no part to play in appearances except for swimmers and even a flat chested GG will look to be GG but a TS's large boned torso will look unfemale without big boobs.
And in the end its the question of psychological need...a man doesn't need artificial testicles anda GG doesn't need artificial breasts to be great in bed...but they get them because of the psychological trauma of not having them...same applies to TS.

Rose, as expected you are you. A TS's large boned torso will probably still look unfemale with big boobs. I don't think GG women freak out about small boobs as much as TS's do. Your idea sounds more like a guys idea of a woman to me.

"And in the end its the question of psychological need...a man doesn't need artificial testicles anda GG doesn't need artificial breasts to be great in bed."........According to who? You? Just because you don't have any use for them doesn't mean no one else doesn't. I personally know other TS's with small breasts that are perfectly happy the way they are, no psych problem there. You make many assumptions and that is fine, but you just need to know not everyone thinks as you do.

And for your swimmer dude, so what, if we wants balls, let him have em. I just said if it wasn't an accident or illness he should pay for them. You are just jealous someone else is having something paid for. Life is a bit*& isn't it?

Hugs,
Marsha

I LOVE my "almost A's" and they look just right on my body (5'11"-large boned ex-jock)...tried using silicone inserts (C cups) and they made me look exactly what I dreaded I might look like, a bimbo...nope...not going larger for anything...of course Mother Nature might have something to say about that down the line...but at my age, I doubt it! (smile)

Traci

Marsha one of us thinks like a guy but it isn't me..you're thinking like a TG and I'm thinking like a TS...TGs don't care about not passing cos they have no idea of it being a natural desire to be part of the group...but never mind...and why would a guy want artificial testicles if not to appear totally male? just a shame i didn't get any useful response from any of the others...

Rose, you obviously don't know me. First off if you read some of my old forum posts you will see that passing and blending into society has always been a top issue with me. Next is I have since become at peace with who I am and my confidence level is extremely high, so I no longer get all paranoid about passing as you and some of the others do, I just go about living my life. And last but not least, I DO PASS!

And why didn't you get any useful responses? Probably because you were expecting everyone to agree with you and they didn't. My psych said to me that I naturally had women's mannerisms, what was it your psych said to you? Oh yeah.........

Best wishes on your journey.
Hugs,
Marsha

Firstly, it’s like comparing apples and oranges, or melons and plums…
Whether one deserves treatment on the NHS has no correlation with the other, so if men can get testicle implants, it doesn’t mean that women ought to get boob-jobs.
As a post-op TS in the process of applying for legal status as a woman, all I want is to have the same rights as any other woman, no more no less. I have plenty of gender markers that get me read constantly, last night for example it was big hands. How far should the NHS go to beautify me/make me utterly passable? I’ve got small boobs too, it’s the least of my worries, most of which I never worry about anyway.
Some TS’s have managed to get electrolysis, FFS, boob jobs etc on the NHS, I don’t even know if my PCT would pay for any of those, but if they don’t, I would not be the one to kick up a fuss about it. If other women don’t get that, I don’t get it, I am a woman. At least we are equal from a legal point of view.
The question is, where do the NHS draw the line? Hand reductions?

And also, can we stop the sniping please, girls?
You’re both mental and you both think like men, There, that was me bashing your heads together.
xx

Rose, I'm happy to reply to stimulate discussion upon the site, but I'll allow you to determine whether it's useful or not!

At present, I suspect that I will not fully transition and my progress is very, very slow. But it's the only position from which I can make a comments.. Of course, views can change with circumstances..

In the UK, we remain fortunate that we have a publically funded NHS, but it is a provision that is perpetually under financial pressure. I understand that following assessment treatment is provided to align your body with your gender and patients are scrutinised at length to gauge whether this expenditure is appropriate - for them and the public purse. Individuals who need their physical appearance to align with their gender must surely illustrate a cognitive understanding of their desired gender, not a desire to achieve an exaggerated representation of it. So is there a need to determine an appropriate size of breasts for a person of a certain height and stature (average breasts for the the average woman - sounds like a call to arms!) at the beginning of the treatment, and agree that funding will be provided to achieve those targets?

Yes, I'd like a pair of targets as well, but I suspect that unless everything else was also in place their physical proportions alone wouldn't make me a woman. Also, I'm not sure how I would I feel if I sought supplementary attention diverting restricted funds to enhance my breasts, whilst a neighbour died because a kidney transplant could not be funded.

However. Views can change with circumstances..

Rachel

Personally, no, I don't think TS's should be granted boob jobs out of hand, why should they? So the hormones didn't do quite as good a job on the breasts as one may have liked, well, sorry but that happens to GG's too, deal with it. Besides, for 90% of the time, it can all be faked and improved upon with a decent gel filled bras etc, and that includes swimming too. Unless you are naked, I really can't see what the problem is.

Replacement testicles? I've never heard of that one! My stepfather had his removed due to cancer and it didn't bother him a bit, it's not like anyone notices unless you are completely naked after all.

Nikki

really don't think you have presented a fair representation of this case Rose. Full article at:

http://www.dailymail.co.u[...]ds.html


If you read the article the lady in question has lived for 10 years as a woman but "has not had a sex change operation" but requires breast enlargement to make her more feminine? I would have thought srs was the first hurdle to cross to be more female.

What is worse is her case is being fought by the Equality and Human rights Commission, a body that gets £70 million a year from taxpayers to fight stupid cases like this against another public body, ie, NHS, the only winners will be the lawyers. Hopefully the EHRC will be the first quango to get the chop (no pun intended) after the next election.

And lets not forget the NHS is free at the point of NEED.....not want!!][

Well, having read the article my views are unchanged. I still don't believe she should be granted the operation and I defend the hospital/trust for saying defending this case costs money which could have been better spent.

Excuse me for pointing out another obvious point as well, why doesn't she pay privately? They're not that much if you want it that badly, or is she just after a freebie?

Nikki

I've been reading this debating the pros & cons. But it seems that some small detail had been left out. The fact that this person hasn't evan had srs yet. There's no side to take. This shouldn.t evan be considerd untill after, at least a couple of years after.
At this point she may not evan want to keep them later on. Tell her to get a job & save some money.

This case has many flaws as far as I see it.

One aspect that I dislike about such tactics being used by such types is the expectation to have it served to them on a plate. This can back fire in so much as seeking acceptance from the general Public and having understanding for women with a trans past. Can in fact cause a certain amount of antagonism from the Public and may make some who may have been on the fence unsympathetic towards women like me because they see us as requireing unnecessary operations when such funding and resources could be used for those with life threatening ailments. This is after all the perception many of us have fought against in seeking acceptance and understanding from out side the transsexual circles.

Also as has been pointed out why is she demanding a BA when she hasnt even had any form of GCS/SRS ? Surely if one considers self as a woman the one aspect that is most distaful to one is having the incorrect genitalia for the gender one feels they are ? Now I know for some GCS/SRS is not an option on medical grounds but generally it is desired by the majority of M2F Transwomen though the uptake is much lower for a F2M transmen because it is a less successful operation with lower success rates comapred to a M2F. That said once one has had GCS/SRS there is a raised probability/possibility of an increase in breast growth some time even up to 5-6 years after the removal of the testicals. Baring this in mind surely it would be better for no M2F to even be considered for BA by the NHS till such criteria has been met.

Personally (knowing a very large number of M2F women of all ages and stages) I find the desire for having breasts of a certain size and relating that to feeling female is not a general view shared by most M2F women usually after having GCS/SRS they are much happier within themselves the breast development is mostly lower down on the requirements list and certainly does not a woman make.

If there was only two proceedures offered to M2F women by the NHS I would be willing to bet the two most common and popular choices would be.

1: GCS/SRS..BTW GCS = new term being used by the medicos.Gender Confirmation Surgery.
2: Facial hair removal whether Laser/ IPL or electro.

just those two proceedures alone will greatly enhance and provide the woman with more confidence and a feeling of well being.

Any one desiring a BA should just go PVT like many natal women have to. for around £2K-£3K a decent pair of breasts can be achieved. I know this is my own personal view and take but I also know it one shared by the majority of transwomen I know (though not all) but then most of the ones I know are self reliant and confident and certainly not all are stunners and some are not even 80% convincving in looks but most certainly are in demeaner and confidence that is worth far more than virtually any surgery.

I'm relieved to see that I didn't get flamed for not defending this woman.

Following up on Sarah's two points of what people might prefer to see available on the NHS, obviously SRS is there, but I think the second one, and for me the first priority would be FFS. The reason being that I can hide what's in my knickers until such time that it is removed, but I can't hide my face and that is paramount to help integrating and being accepted as a woman.

Regarding hair removal, in Holland you can actually claim most of the costs back from your medical insurance so it will cost you a lot less and is therefore more available. I know that as I have my/electrolysis undertaken in Holland, shame I don't live there and then it would be costing me a lot less!

Nikki

As far as I'm concerned, BA , no matter what thereason behind it may be, should be privately financed unless the relevent health system/insurance has a policy of generally funding it for ALL women, irrespective of their origins................As MtF we regard ourselves as women and as such ought to try and accept what the tablets/gels/patches give us and not try and claim a special status. Trying to claim such a status is NOT going to endear us to those natal women we are (deperately?) trying to integrate with, especially if some of them are, at the same time, desperately trying to raise the money for a boob job themselves. A visit to the following link ought to put matters in some sort of perspective.........some of us think we're hard done by?

http://www.007b.com/breas[...]y_1.php

Now if these women can come to terms with that which the hormone bath of puberty has given them, why can't we accept what HRT has given us? To be provocative for a moment, if an MtF can only regard themselves as a woman if they've got DD's as against A's then I can't help feeling that we're dealing with breast fetishism here.......................either that or they've let themselves be fooled by airbrushed and photoshopped centrefolds and porn models........ Reality can be a harsh mistress.......

Testicle replacement surgery.......fine,since it's almost certainly the consequence of an accident or illness. By the same yardstick, as far a I am aware, breast reconstruction following a mastectomy due to breast cancer would be funded by the relevent health system/insurance...but this is a different ball game,isn't it?


ciao

Lynn Harvey

I have to completely agree with Lynn and that was the point I was trying to make earlier. Rose brought up the psychological aspect of all this as being justification that the BA should be covered. As Lynn points out, a MTF wanting to appear as one of those magazine airbrushed models is not living in reality. I think each of us could come up with a whole list of things that would make us psychologically feel better about ourselves. Let us not forget, women come in all shapes and sizes.

On another note in this topic, Maryanne brought out some good information and so did others in regards to how this story can cause a backlash on the TG community. This story has already made the U.S. media and the comments call this entire fiasco a joke based on this gal not even having surgery yet wants someone else to pay for her boobs. I think the whole story gives the impression as Lynn said, this person has a breast fetish or something out of a fantasy. Here in the U.S. we are debating the healthcare issue right now and stories like this are causing people to wonder why stuff like trannies getting boobs is paid for and life saving surgeries are not.

Hugs,
Marsha

Thankyou for your answer Sue, it was nice to get a perspective from someone who has been though the system as it were. Also interesting was the fact that most women here believed that they should be treated exactly the same as biological women, not asking for preferential treatment in any way. How wonderful given the deck is stacked against us to begin with.

Nikki