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Your Shopping rights explained

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  • Have you been refused service in a shop?

    Protection for transsexual people as customers and service users

    The Sex Discrimination Act (SDA) was amended in April 2008 to protect transsexual people undergoing supervised medical treatment, against discrimination and harassment in the provision of goods, facilities and services. This adds to the previous protection in employment and vocational training.

    The law applies to both public and commercially run services and enterprises.




    Amendments April 2010


    * It is unlawful for a publican or shopkeeper to refuse to serve a customer because they are **intending to undergo, are undergoing or have undergone gender reassignment.

    (1)A person (a “service-provider”) concerned with the provision of a service to the public or a section of the public (for payment or not) must not discriminate against a person requiring the service by not providing the person with the service.

    (2)A service-provider (A) must not, in providing the service, discriminate against a person (B)—

    (a)as to the terms on which A provides the service to B;

    (b)by terminating the provision of the service to B;

    (c)by subjecting B to any other detriment.

    (3)A service-provider must not, in relation to the provision of the service, harass B-

    (a)a person requiring the service, or

    (b)a person to whom the service-provider provides the service.

    (4)A service-provider must not victimise a person requiring the service by not providing the person with the service.

    (5)A service-provider (A) must not, in providing the service, victimise a person (B)—




    ** this is the important amendment as it no longer directly states a person must be under medical supervision, the emphasis is on intending

    Anyone with any questions please post in the law forum, I will try and answer them, if I cannot do it immediately I will seek clarification and advice.

    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      October 6, 2010 11:51 AM BST
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  • Holy crap! (smile)
    <p>Traci</p>
      October 6, 2010 1:25 PM BST
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  • Holy crap? This is in response to someone that obviously was discriminated against.

    http://gendersociety.com/[...]544997&

    Quote ''The Nanny state'' laws do have some uses. One cannot say ''Piss off, I'm not serving you, you tranny pervert wierdo'' in this country.

    Note weirdo in this context is derogatory, as in with the intention to insult or belittle a person.

    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      October 6, 2010 2:01 PM BST
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  • Crissie, I read the "a's" and "b's" and part 1 and 3, etc. and had moment of laughter thinking about a policeman in a Monty Python like moment trying to spit out all the provisions of the law when accosting a perpetrator...one must be a Mensa candidate to get those statutes down...(smile) Did NOT mean to make light of discrimination, but my "weirdo" sense of humor got the best of me...must be from all those weeds I've been eating! (grinning, ducking, and running)

    Traci xxxx
    <p>Traci</p>
      October 6, 2010 2:29 PM BST
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  • What, I wonder, are the legal implications for someone who is not intending to undergo gender reassignment. Do shops in this country have the right to ask TV’s/CD’s to leave their store without any other reason than the clothes they are wearing or the way they are presenting?
    xx
      October 6, 2010 3:19 PM BST
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  • Lucy, at the time one can state, they are intending, The way I read the specifics one does not have to actually substantiate their claim, the basis is how the customer presents themselves, as in a court of law, one does not have to clarify their intentions, I am advised by Professor Sharp that respect for ones appearance or as they present themselves is deserving of being addressed in their perceived gender. Obviously as long as no one is offended by that person. Obviously its all relevant as would be a scenario involving a genetic female, if someone goes into Harvey Knics, in a skirt up to their arse, with their genitalia hanging out of a thong,if other patrons complain and their complaints are reasonable, then of course they can refuse to serve someone.

    Perhaps someone that is known to the staff in the shop as only going into try on clothes for sexual kicks. The list of why someone could be refused service is as probably as long as the ones of why not.

    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      October 6, 2010 3:36 PM BST
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  • Cristine,
    It boggles the mind why your laws should even get to the level of detailing the "transgender state" a shopper is at the time they are refused service. The more detail you put into a law, the more "loopholes" can be found in that law because of "omissions" in that law. It makes the law cumbersome and encourages legal challenges of that law.
    In Canada, the general Human Right of the shopper is would be protected ...without even having to consider the actual, perceived, or preferred gender of the person. Transgender would be irrelevant in the matter.
    If the shopper was obviously going to damage (or soil) the merchandise etc... then the shop owner would be within their rights to protect that merchandise. etc...
    When I see the law having to "specifically" include Transgender, it smacks of a powerful lobby group needing recognition - solely for the sake of ego gratification.
    We have the right to exist, but that does not give us the right to "ram our existence down everyone's throat" in a pro-active manner.
    My Grandmother had a great saying..."We are all equal ... whether we like it or not"
    <p>Doanna Highland</p>
      October 6, 2010 5:05 PM BST
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  • Doanna

    Because UK laws are individual and deal with specific issues. and::-

    (1) date back years and are under constant revision and amendments to bring them into line to facilitate changing attitudes.

    (2) A crime/offence has to be reported/prosecuted with reference to a certain act of common law or statute..

    UK law is probably the oldest set of laws in the western world, all encompassing and comprehensive and many civilised countries laws are based on the idea and principles of UK law and justice. When you look at USA laws which vary from state to state and is dependent on the local electorial influence. Hardly gonna get a redneck state in the USA to pass a gender recognition act?.

    Discrimination laws, are for instance broken down into different sections, each one being a seperate identifiable crime. racial discrimination, discrimination based on religion., sexual discrimination and many more, then each one is relevant to employment law, goods and services and so on.
    To make a law work one must have a point of reference on what law was broken/infringed upon. You cant just charge someone with a discrimination offence without mentioning how and why the offence was deemed illegal.

    If someone goes into a shop and the shopkeeper says we don't serve niggers in this establishment, then thats derogatory and discriminatory, same goes if someone says we don't serve tranny perverts.

    A typical example of Judgemental precedents, altering laws is the case where A post-op TS was raped, the defence submitted a claim that as the vagina did not meet the clinical and technical description of a natal females vagina, the case should be dismissed. The judge ruled and the words ''surgically constructed vagina'' was added to the offences agains the persons section 1 rape. of the sexual offences act. This act is none gender specific and only refers to vaginal or anal rape.

    Thats why laws are updated with specifics.

    Have a look at your own rape laws for instance and is there a chance there. that someone could escape justice using the same defence plea???

    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      October 6, 2010 6:48 PM BST
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  • Hi Crissie .
    I personaly have never had a bad experience being served in a shop and i would have thought that unless the customer was causing any kind of distress to others then there should be no problem , by distress i mean in a manner that would put staff and other customers and children in an uncomfortable situation such as maybe,, someone "a man" trying on female clothes and showing off the fact that he is enjoying it in an unopropriate way, that sort of behavior should and would be a good reason to be asked to leave .
    If the person is clearly making it known that they are just acting as any other female customer would then that in 2010 "should" be accepted as normal .

    The key to this is everyone just having the confidence to be themselves . I love shopping and if anyone ever tried to take my right to do so away i would have them in court even if it cost me to do so .

    Slightly different subject ; i was in the shoe shop on saturday teaching 5 female teenagers how to walk heels , now thats what shopping is about "fun" and the staff rekon i made there day .

    Hugs Julia x x.

    .
      October 6, 2010 10:29 PM BST
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  • Donna.
    Firstly they are not Cristines laws " she is highlighting UK laws" .

    As your mind is so boggled about the laws over here just maybe you should understand why we are fighting to change them.

    The UK is a bit behind other countries where certain laws are concerned but then again if we have a problem we don,t just pull out a gun and shoot that problem as some countries do .

    Now my mind boggles as to why the rest of the bloody world wants to move here .

    Julia .
      October 6, 2010 11:11 PM BST
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  • Julia,
    I meant no "dissing" of Cristine (hugs! cristine) at all.
    One of the interesting difference between North America and the UK is that we have a written constitution and I do not believe the UK has such a thing.
    My point was, do you really need to specifically identify the gender of the person who was discriminated against?
    The right of that person to shop there was refused without a legal reason...and that would be more than enough for the court, over here, to decide in the plaintiffs favor. In North America, the section (1)A that cristine posted would have "done the job" quite well.

    (1)A person (a “service-provider”) concerned with the provision of a service to the public or a section of the public (for payment or not) must not discriminate against a person requiring the service by not providing the person with the service.

    Perhaps the reason the people in the UK keep having to change the laws is that the existing laws did not get it right in the first place and therefore, requires perpetual "fine-tuning" because of that. I believe the situation of laws in the UK would benefit if their laws were more streamlined...not more "complicated.

    Julia, A second point I would like to make.
    In Canada, we do not "just pull out a gun and shoot that problem as some countries do . " either.

    finally,
    Julia, you mentioned that "Now my mind boggles as to why the rest of the bloody world wants to move here . "

    If you are implying that nobody likes to move to North America because of our laws - or our attitudes, I will acquaint you with some statistics on immigration - According to the United Nations Population Report (2005)
    (I realize it's a few years old...but I don't believe these reports are issued on a yearly basis)

    Number of Immigrants
    USA 38,355,000
    Canada 6,200,000
    United Kingdom 5,408,000

    Percentage of total number of Immigrants in the world
    USA 20.56
    Canada 3.272
    United Kingdom 2.898

    Immigrants as a percentage of total population
    USA 12.81
    Canada 18.76
    United Kingdom 8.892

    -------------------------------------------------------

    "The vagabond who's rapping at your door ...Is standing in the clothes that you once wore." ...Bob Dylan


    <p>Doanna Highland</p>
      October 7, 2010 4:17 AM BST
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  • Donna,

    We may not have a "written"constitution as per America/Canada, WE do however have the Magna Carta, first passed into law in 1225, thats quite a few years before your country was even discovered.

    Immigration greater in north America? I thought apart from the Indians (Largely slaughtered by your predecessors) you are all either immigrants or the off spring of immigrants.

    I don't believe our laws and our system is perfect, it has however been around for a very long time and is largely responsible for the basic structure of yours, I doubt your interpretation of it is correct.

    Cristine,

    Thank you for your interesting and very relevant posts.

    Huggles

    Becca
      October 7, 2010 7:50 AM BST
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  • Thankyou,
    I'll try to make it easy, you have to give a reason why you were discriminated against. You can't just plead discrimination. This applies to hospital treatment employment, if someone refuses you a service because your black thats racial discrimnination if someone refuses you a service because your a transsexual thats discrimination based on gender. God knows what it would come under if you were refused emergency treatment in the A&E because you were wearing red shoes and your handbag did'nt match, but sure there must be something that would cover it.

    Same way you can't just prosecute somone for stealing something different types of theft, you have to give factual evidence of what they stole and how they stole it.
    burglary, robbery, fraud, taking pecuniary advantage, embezzlement. Armed robbery. larcency, blackmail is a form of stealing so is extortion. All different crimes with varying penalties. You can't just prosecute someone for killing someone, There is murder, an other degrees of murder right down to causing death by driving without due care and attention. When our laws were first written, They were secular and a disadvantage to the masses. gradually as society changed, laws were added and amendments made to make them fairer and all encompassing. Thats why we in the UK probably have the best laws anywhere in the world relating to Transsgender issues. To say it gets complicated and leaves too many loopholes is wrong, Many changes to statutes and common law, is to close the loopholes, as in the case of the artificial vagina a classic example of closing a get out.clause.

    Some of the aspects of USA law, I quite admire, wish we could adopt them here, especially when it comes to handing down sentences. Very often here
    if a person commits 5 robberies, the get say 3 years for each of the five robberies, they then get sentenced to do their sentences concurrent which means they serve their imprisionment with all sentences running together, ergo they only do 3 years less time off for good behaviour. Whereas in the USA, they tend to do 3 years for the first crime and then when thats finished they start doing the time for the next crime and so on. consecutive. The only real gripe I have with the human rights act in the UK is very often it favours the perp more than the victim.

    Someone once said the law is an ass, only if its being read and interpretated by donkeys.

    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
    This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at October 31, 2015 4:57 PM GMT
      October 7, 2010 10:56 AM BST
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  • A good and interesting thread Crissie and I can categorically say that I have never been subject to discrimination by a member of staff in a retail establishment. I have however had bouncers in nightclubs ask me to refrain using the ladies toilets and instead use the mens at which point I replied I will continue to use the ladies and if they wished to eject me from the club I would like a written letter stating the reasons why. The conclusion each time was that I continued to use the ladies toilets and although I unfortunately had to deal with the mental trauma and anguish of being discriminated it was never carried out in a physical manner.
    Love
    Penny
    x
    Just an ordinary girl finding her way in this strange life. - What will it take to get everyone to realise that everyone else is also a human being that deserves just as much respect? - How does someone tell their doctor they have hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia? - When I was a student I specialised in Alcopology. It always starts with Alco and always ends with pology. - Waiter! There's a hare in my rabbit pie!
      October 7, 2010 2:32 PM BST
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  • 252
    I hope your UK hate law actually gets some exercise. I recently read a story about how several Southern states, despite having hate crimes laws on the books, no one has been arrested on one of the new statutes. A law that exists but is never implemented. Sounds like the South to me. Reminds me of my baseball coach when we got a GG on our team when I was 10. The coach needed to play every player two innings and one at-bat. That jerk NEVER played her more than two innings in a game and never gace her more than one at-bat in a game. I don't know why I'm connecting the two, it just seems like they belong together.

    Z
    I am the itch, after it was scratched.
      October 7, 2010 2:41 PM BST
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  • Hi Zoe, It is my experience that our police take crimes of hate very seriously. Last week I was a victim of a hate crime. I was called a paedophile and a weirdo by a group of youths and pursued for about 100 yards. Police came to my home within 30 minutes and patrolled the area in search of the youths. I subsequently had the police pay 2 additional visits over the next 48 hours to check and see how I was. I also had 3 telephone called from the police victim support and a letter providing me details on how to cope with the mental trauma of psychological abuse and persecution. I am also very proud of the free personal alarm which I received to be used if I ever find myself in a similar situation.

    Although it is a great shame that I was victim to such ignorant behaviour I felt on the whole my freedom was protected. Also, my thread at expressing my dislike for people who use the term weirdo to describe another was very therapeutic.

    Love
    penny
    x

    Just an ordinary girl finding her way in this strange life. - What will it take to get everyone to realise that everyone else is also a human being that deserves just as much respect? - How does someone tell their doctor they have hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia? - When I was a student I specialised in Alcopology. It always starts with Alco and always ends with pology. - Waiter! There's a hare in my rabbit pie!
      October 7, 2010 2:55 PM BST
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  • Rebecca,
    I was replying to what Julia said "Now my mind boggles as to why the rest of the bloody world wants to move here ." which did not refe to the past. The Statistics indicate that Julia was mistaken in her assumption.
    If you want to refer to the past, then why were the majority of settlers in North America from the UK? Why did the "Colonies" seek independence?
    Interestingly enough, it seems that the vast majority of the Barons, Bishops, and Abbots who were party to the Magna Carta were of French Origins.
    Further, I don't see too many native "Picts" running around in the UK either. Plus, you would think that having almost 800 years would be ample time to streamline the laws.
    <p>Doanna Highland</p>
      October 7, 2010 4:37 PM BST
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  • I might be wrong, I realy have no great knowledge of USA law. except from television, if your arrested on criminal charges you have the right to an attorney, if you cannot afford one, one will be appointed to represent you. When it comers to things like discrimination, being refused goods or a service one has to hire a lawyer. so under those circumstances, the poor people are disadvantaged. I have heard a couple of American girls and girls from Canada, declare in the chat room that when they came out they lost their jobs and some could not afford to pursue their claims under state law, because they could not afford to pay for the lawyers. Here the Ideology of common law is that, within the terms of the law everyone is equal regardless of their position in society or their ability to pay for legal representation, thats one reason that we have so many laws.. Somone refuses to to serve a TS in a shop because they are a TS or on the basis of race, etc etc , its a crime, punishable by law. One has recourse to the law, its not a case of if you can afford it you get it, you can't afford it tough luck. Not being in the position to know a great deal about US or Canadian law, I certainly don't want to get into a you versus us scenario, try not to form opinions lessening the value we place on our legal system. There is of course the requirement for a forum dealing with USA laws, so far nobody has volountered to head up such a forum.

    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
    This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at October 31, 2015 4:52 PM GMT
      October 7, 2010 4:41 PM BST
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  • Hi all .

    I have just been reading about the difficulties transgendered people in the USA have to put up with so i feel it a blessing to be British , living in the USA must be hard if you happen to be transgendered in anyway as every state seems to have a different law "strange place" i would never visit it .

    Julia xx.


      October 7, 2010 7:40 PM BST
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  • Grrrrr

    ...why do you BOYS keep getting in the last word! Geezus...."I'd never visit it"...fine! Who cares! Totally uncalled for, even in a response to another's post...just reminds me sooooo much of maleness always having to win, out fight, out argue, etc...give it up! This is getting ridiculous...and to those who initiate posts knowing full well that it will create flames (and you know who you are), you're just a bad...no wonder the site appears to be struggling...if I were a newbie in here, I'd be turned off by the smug and know-it-all attitudes displayed too often...gawd, it is supposed to be about SUPPORT, not UK vs. USA, etc...

    This has gotten just way too WEIRD and it is tiring and quite frankly, extremely boring...we're ALL in the same boat so to say regarding gender issues and there is enough hate out there directed our way...no need for the hate in our own family!
    Think about it....smarten up!

    From a disgruntled weedeater....

    Traci
    <p>Traci</p>
      October 8, 2010 1:35 AM BST
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  • Cristine,
    I am not certain about the USA, but we have a thing called the "Human Rights Commission" that will persue the matter on their own...and cost nothing...and another thing called "Legal Aid". ...there is usually no cost to the applicant. Usually it never has to go that far because the Companies do not wish the "public backlash" and the bad publicity. Mostly, the matter is dealt with in an "out of court settlement"
    Employees that put their companies in that situation usually get fired and rarely file for wrongful dismissal because they would NOT win in court.
    Our Legal System in Canada differs a bit from the USA
    <p>Doanna Highland</p>
      October 8, 2010 3:22 AM BST
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  • Traci.
    I presume your comments are aimed at me .
    Firstly "do not" call me a BOY! over here we have something called gender recognition and i am female .

    I was not having a go at the USA i was just stating that your having different laws in every state is confusing and i would never visit there , seems i would have to read the law books before crossing every border .

    The term United states is strange in its self! united means "together as one" that can,t be true if one state says one thing and another state says the opposite .


    A very happy hormone taker

    Julia .
      October 8, 2010 5:05 AM BST
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  • I have hidden two posts, I have not consulted Katie or any of the other mods. I am the last one to censor anyones opinion. But this forum is not going to be dragged into a us and them situation. I realy am interested in how laws work in other countries, sure we all have positive things to add, its basically a UK law forum, but I am grateful to get comments and explanations how the laws differ from country to country. But I will not let this forum descend into chaos by anyone, when people start being so base as to call somone else a boy then it makes me wonder why I am devoting my time to trying to help people.. I thought perhaps by highlighting some of our laws regarding transgendered issues it would keep people in the UK informed of their rights and perhaps give people from other countries a basis for repealing some of their own laws that did'nt quite come up to scratch.

    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
    This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at October 31, 2015 4:55 PM GMT
      October 8, 2010 11:27 AM BST
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  • Y'all are carrying on like a bunch of boys...that's why I mentioned it...

    Don't delete this...this is my LAST post and I will let my paid subscription run out...I am moving on!

    Thanks to many of you for helping me get to this point in my life...truly has been helpful and supportive...

    Best wishes always...love you!

    Buh-bye!!!! *poof*

    Traci
    [email protected]
    <p>Traci</p>
      October 8, 2010 1:51 PM BST
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  • Thankyou Doanna

    for the way you have explained, Human rights commission if you check it out you will find listed all the relevant contraventions, it also details lengthy instances of different types of discrimination. it would appear its very akin to our own human rights charter upon which discrimination laws were revised and various sections added and amended in common law.
    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      October 8, 2010 3:24 PM BST
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