Water boarding What if?

  • November 10, 2010 4:50 PM GMT
    George W's autobiography, allegedly, he sanctioned water boarding.!!!!!

    Lets have a sensible and logical debate on this subject. PLEASE do not make this an us and them debate.
    Human rights activists and Liberals would say that in any event, torture should never be used, Extracting information and or confessions by inflicting pain or fear is never an answer and where will it end?

    Imagine this scenario, you haver a loved one, they have disappeared, A suspect has been arrested, and there is overwhelming evidence they have on previous occasions kidnapped people abused them, locked them up in an air tight container to die of suffocation, you have twelve hours to find them and get them out alive, How far would you go to extract the information you need to save their lives???

    How many lives were saved by getting information in this way. Are the rights of an individual relevant with the rights of the many? do we too often forget the rights of the victims in our quest for an individuals human rights?

    Abu Hamza, ''hook hand'' preaches hate and is in prison for inciting murder on a grand scale, he has just won the right to retain his British Passport, why? because the Egyptian Government has revoked his citizenship and if we revoke his passport and UK citizenship he will be rendered stateless, apparently a contravention of his human rights. yet his family are still living of state benefeits and handouts. and his ideals and utterings are contrary to the very basis of human rights as we know them.

    Whilst I don't know. realy if Bush was a good President or a bad one, even a mediocre one, sometimes I wish our Prime Ministers had had the backbone and balls he had.

    I will write my views on waterboarding and torture, in a few days time, whatever is said here will not change my mind and how I feel
    about it.

    Play nice lol
    • 1912 posts
    November 10, 2010 5:07 PM GMT
    Interesting subject Cris. There are those that feel because we are the "civilized" world, we therefore should not cause mental or physical harm to others, ie. torture. All I can say to that is it is a greater torture to our own people who end up suffering mentally and physically because we did not do all we could to protect them.

    As for Bush, unfortunately politics today has created extreme partisanship where neither side recognizes true accomplishments of the other. Basically they are blind to anything good that may come from a particular party or person. It is exactly the same thing as fundamental christians believing homosexuality is a choice. They don't want to know anything different and will not look at facts when presented to them. But like I said, neither side recognizes the other and only when this is old history will there be an unbiased review of what actually occurred.

    And for Abu Hamza, I believe citizenship should not be revocable from the birth country.


  • November 10, 2010 5:37 PM GMT
    I doubt very much if Bush really knows if he sanctioned waterboarding or not!
    • 434 posts
    November 10, 2010 5:58 PM GMT
    Perhaps it's time to stop all "dual citizenships" and increase the length of time to acquire a "new citizenship."
    I believe that Citizenship should not be "given" to anyone from another country, but rather "earned" for that persons Children and future generations. It's too bad that the UN won't take him (Hamza and his family) off the UK's hands....

    "Abu Hamza, ''hook hand'' preaches hate and is in prison for inciting murder on a grand scale, he has just won the right to retain his British Passport, why? because the Egyptian Government has revoked his citizenship and if we revoke his passport and UK citizenship he will be rendered stateless, apparently a contravention of his human rights. yet his family are still living of state benefeits and handouts."

    "and my needs entwined, like ribbons of light...and I came through the doorway, some where... in the night"
  • November 10, 2010 6:07 PM GMT
    I was trying to elicit responses as to if people agree with waterboarding as a method of saving lives, denying one persons human rights to save the lives of the many, would you torture someone to save the life of someone dear to you? as per the scenario I outlined..... the Hamza was just an example of people screaming for their human rights but preaching hate and plotting mass murder in defiance of humanity and other peoples human rights.........................
    • 1195 posts
    November 10, 2010 7:40 PM GMT
    I don't like your senario.
    There was a senario some years back...If you had the chance to assinate Hitler, would WW II have been avoided. The answer in that case was NO.

    I've always believed THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS.
    If you accept that torture -mental or physical -is wrong, then don't use torture.

    As for dual citizenship, if you seek citizenship in a country other than where you were born it would seem to me that you would give up citizenship in the first country. Or am I being logical?

    • 1017 posts
    November 10, 2010 8:14 PM GMT
    Hi Cristine,

    To be honest I don't understand why this should be a subject for discussion on TGS, but since it is, here goes:

    Your scenario is often used by the Right to justify tortures of all kinds. Truth is, it seldom, if ever, actually occurs in real life. Jack What's-his-name on the show "24" on the Right Wing Fox channel seems to constantly run into this situation, but that's fantasy.

    Most victims of torture turn out to be low level nobodies with no information of significance to give. Studies show they either endure it until the torturers give up or say anything that is demanded of them - useless misinformation. If the top level terrorists are captured, they are simply too well known to be tortured.

    If one follows the argument to it's logical conclusion, we might as well throw out all laws and courts. In the middle ages "trial by fire" or the like were used to determine guilt. Witches, TG's, foreigners, people who belonged to the wrong religion, and other undesirables would be placed in the hands of God to determine their fate. Those in authority would do things like tie the unfortunate to a stake and set fire to them or hold their head underwater for 5 minutes. If they died, the poor bugger was innocent. If they managed to live they were in league with the Devil and were immediately executed. Very efficient system of "justice."

    I don't know much about Abu Hamza so I can't comment on his situation.

    One can easily sum up the "W's" presidency by stating that when he took office the US was at peace and had a balanced budget. When he left office we were fighting two wars and the nation was drowning in a huge deficit and falling into recession.

    • 1912 posts
    November 10, 2010 9:43 PM GMT
    Thank you for making my point Melody.
  • November 10, 2010 10:02 PM GMT

    I always read your well thought out and considered postings, why is it being discussed in TGS?, it is making the headlines, Surely we all have our own views and should discuss issues like this and not just be bound by ''tranny'' related subjects, things like this affect all our lives. I'm not trying to be bombastic or dissenting, the thought occured to me whilst reading about it, would I be grateful if somone was tortured and it saved my life or the lives of people near and dear to me? Could I honestly turn round and say thats disgusting an abomination of someones basic human rights? or be thankful,..... just trying to be honest

    I don't do the law forum for the fun of it, having a great respect for peoples rights and a sense of fair play, but where does fair play start and end, when dealing with these type of people?

    Are ethics affordable when they are self orientated regarding ones own survival?
    • 1912 posts
    November 10, 2010 10:12 PM GMT
    I agree with you 100% on this one Cris. But you know, you should have kept things on topic for a TG website and finished your post with " And what color panties are you wearing?"
    • 2068 posts
    November 10, 2010 10:38 PM GMT

    Abu Hamza should be STRUNG UP as he's nothin but a bl**dy terrorist. If you ask me, after all the hate that comes out of his mouth, the bugger SHOULD be made stateless & to HELL with his Human Rights!

  • November 10, 2010 11:36 PM GMT
    Hi Cristine. My answer to this is Malleus Maleficarum....Hammer of the Witches, written in 1486 by Heinrich Kramer and Jacob Sprenger, and was first published in Germany in 1487. Its main purpose was to challenge all arguments against the existence of witchcraft and to instruct magistrates on how to identify, interrogate and convict witches. Back then people were often accused by others for simply being different or due to vendettas. The book was a guide for those charged with the task of extracting confessions by means of ordeal such as "swimming". It would be fair to say that a huge amount of people confessed to outlandish things because of such torture. So personally I find the idea of water boarding repugnant however having never been faced with the awful circumstances of a member of my family being in peril as you describe or knowing anyone personally who has been a victim of a terrorist attack I feel im not qualified to judge those who want a high justice to prevail.
    • 105 posts
    November 11, 2010 12:39 AM GMT
    Hi Cris,

    The problem with these extreme hypotheticals is that they're so easily rebutted by another hypothetical - in fact, I'll offer you two.

    In the instance you suggest, let's say that we decide to ignore the suspect's human rights, and use every abhorrent torment we can devise to coerce information from him/her. Despite our best and most inventive efforts, we still fail to get any answers. And then, some hours, days or weeks later, it transpires that our suspect was, despite the overwhelming evidence of past misdeeds, not in fact the culprit.


    Do we justify our actions because we sincerely thought the suspect guilty? History can show a lot of people whom we generally condemn for their actions who could claim the same justification. Indeed, any transphobic bigot who sincerely believes that transgender people are a danger to the moral health of society could use the same defence for any of their actions towards us.

    A second scenario - you return home to find that your front door is off its hinges, the house has been ransacked and your partner is nowhere to be seen. You call the police, and they tell you that they have overwhelming evidence that your partner is involved in something illegal (they won't tell you what, or what evidence they hold for 'reasons of security'). They claim that they have the right to detain your partner indefinitely, without legal representation, and are in fact just about to fly them out of the country for 'questioning' in an undisclosed location.

    Do you a) put your feet up with a nice cup of tea and a Bourbon biscuit, secure in the knowledge that whatever atrocities are visited on the helpless person of your partner are justified by the suspicions of Her Britannic Majesty's government, and for the good of the many


    b) contact lawyers, newspapers and every pro-human rights group you can think of?

    Let me say that I'm not trying here to change your views, or indeed anybody else's, just pointing out that these 'any reasonable person would have to agree' hypothetical scenarios are of dubious value in informing a debate on complex moral issues.


    • 308 posts
    November 11, 2010 7:32 AM GMT
    Provocative thread Cristine,
    Your scenario depicts, a peace time, kidnapping of a loved one, and would YOU torture. Would I torture if I ( key word here is I ) had the chance to maybe save them, you bet, emotions get in the way, vengeance is the only answer, you have no regards to human rights.
    Would it be logical, no. Why, the info may not be of any use. Torture has been proven to the point that the person being torture will say anything to make it stop, even if they do not have any. End results can be more damaging, to all concerned.

    Now, lets take the torture scenario into different light, from peace time to war time. Are there human rights in this situation?

    In our ( U.S.A. ) way of thinking....it's alright as long as it is them who gets tortured. At least that is the level we have seemingly dropped to.

    How many lives were saved in the scenario below, NONE, on both sides.

    You are at war, mortal combat, you already know what the enemy does to your troops, there seems to be no human rights in this situation, it's war, and they are all dirty. You capture five prisoners. They are put on a chopper, with an interpreter. The officer on board tells the pilot to take it up to 5000 feet. They maybe of no special rank, but they will have info about where there comrades are. Now, torture by fear. The first one is questioned, looks at the other four and does not speak, he is thrown out of the chopper door. The same interrogation goes on, three more out the door. The last one, talks his fool head off. Was the info good, yes.
    Was this right, no, but at the time, it got good info. The reality is, it gave the info to kill more people. Individual rights versus the needs of the many. Now this must be pondered.

    Just who is relevant anymore, this is the question?

    What was really gained? Where and how far down has humanity gone? We are the good guy's right? The land of John Wayne and all that is good. The Geneva Convention spells this out, right? Wow, now that's irrelevant!!

    Would we learn not do it again, regrettably no.

    Now, the war on terror. This is a tough one to answer in today's reality. Just my thoughts, you have to play as dirty as the other guy,....where are our human rights, we know what they do!!! In war and peace, some innocent people suffer.
    Example, look at the prison system, that is a good example of how some innocent people pay for the needs of the many.

    In conclusion,
    We must hold ourselves to a higher standard, for we are the ones that have to face our own conscious, face the world, and look in the mirror to judge.

  • November 11, 2010 7:38 AM GMT
    I agree with Melody,

    Torture isn't the answer in a civilised society, It's all very easy to claim " lives saved by water boarding" to justify ones actions, but did Bush actually provide evidence of this? I doubt it.

    It's all too easy to ride rough shod over one persons human rights "for the greater good" But if you were that person would you think it justified?

    I doubt History will ever show "w" Bush's presidency in a good light , no matter how many times he tries to re-write history. He and Blair will always be remembered for the lies and war crimes for which they are responsible.

  • November 11, 2010 10:32 AM GMT
    Great post Tammy,

    Reasoned and unbiased.

    I abhor the thought of anyone being tortured, even in the direst need I would be too squemish to do it. but I had to ask myself, if I found out my life or someone dear to me lived as a result of a person being tortured, I would be inclined to leave the moral high ground and push my own moral code to one side. Is this a natural feeling? a basic instinct,, seems sorta selfish, its wrong as long as it does'nt affect me? Do we honestly have double standards. Do morals and ethics have a final price. Then we have to think about the choices those in power have to make to protect us, if things that have been reported are true, one outcome of the water boarding seems to have prevented an attack on Heathrow airport and Canary Wharf. As a nation the UK from past history certainly can not take the moral high ground unilaterally, the rack and thumbscrews spring to mind. I am sure our government whilst in China are spouting human rights, are aware that behind closed doors and suppressed media reporting are still ''in favour of torture,under the premise that its for the common good''

    • Moderator
    • 252 posts
    November 11, 2010 1:32 PM GMT
    My first question when I read about torture techniques like water boarding, sleep depravation, sensory depravation, etc. is "Who are we?" I'm not talking about who others are and what they would do to me if the situation were reversed, about what Hezbollah would do, what the Chinese would do or what one of our allies would do. Who are we?

    Well, I'm an American. Our rule of law (in 49 states) is based on English Common law, so I think it's fair to say that our two countries have many more similarities than differences when it comes to this. My country is supposed to respect each individual's rights. Each person has rights, even while under arrest. There has been international concensus about torture, one of the reasons we supposedly don't do it is so the enemy won't torture our people.

    Torture is reknowned for being unreliable. Are you really going to try to play "beat the clock" with a terrorist who knows how desperate you are? Those situations are straw man arguments. Nothing like that "last minute save" by using torture has ever happened and most likely would almost never work.

    I realize they (whoever "they" is at the moment) have tortured. Islam, especially can be twisted by evil men. As easy as democracy can be twisted.

    Even if these evil men torture our people, we cannot allow ourselves to give in to rage and desperation. As far as intell goes, torture as an information getter just doesn't work. When the US was attacked on 9/11, we gave ourselves over to the Patriot Act, which limits our own personal freedoms. We gave the terrorists exactly what they wanted. We became suspicious of our neighbors and we created our own terror inside Gitmo. We gave them what they wanted on a plate, we became paranoid and racist.

    I will not become one the pigs at the end of Animal Farm: "And the animals looked from man to pig and pig to man and no one could tell the difference." I will fight against secret disappearances, against the paranoia that creates fear. We need to remain the country of our forefathers. If we allow fear to change us, did the idea of America ever really exist or was it just all smoke and mirrors the whole time?

    • 1017 posts
    November 13, 2010 8:00 PM GMT
    Gee, Marsha, you're right.

    Bush, now that his eight year term is over, should be given the same total lack of criticism as Obama has received in the first two years of his presidency.

    It is absolutely unfair to "misunderestimate" his performance in office. In a thousand years I (as a trained historian) am completely sure that he will rank right up with our greatest presidents like Andrew Johnson, Ulysses S. Grant, Warren G. Harding, and Herbert Hoover (whose crimes, stupidity and incompetence will be totally forgotten by then.)

    So very sorry to have expected the "Shrub" to actually provide this country with the peace and prosperity that it had when he took office. To quote the great man, "hell of a job" Marsha.

    • 434 posts
    November 14, 2010 2:22 AM GMT
    It's an "age old" question as to does "the end justify the means".
    1) Many, many years ago, a small number of people could not cause nearly as much damage and injury to as many people as they can today.
    2) Unfortunately, the "politically correct" seem to think that anything that is "the least bit unpleasant" is torture. With this definition... I strongly disagree.
    3) As far as things like "waterboarding", "sleep deprivation", and "drugs" are concerned... I would be in favor of those being used if there is a good possibility that it could avert the suffering of many innocent people. I would never agree with the older forms of torture that involved terrible pain.
    We have to ensure that the people who make the decision to use waterboarding etc. have a strong belief that doing so will bring "positive" results.
    4) as for the question "does waterboarding etc. make us sink down to the level of the bad guys?" .... NO!!

    5) - We all remember seeing videos of people (while initially still conscious) getting their heads slowly cut off.
    - We all remember seeing photos and videos of soldiers, stripped of clothing, who had been butchered and dragged behind vehicles.
    - We all know that the people in the "Western World" do not condone that sort fanatical "hatred" ..but we do have a right to protect ourselves. The fact that we do not use pain as the "chosen method" of torture separates "us from them." That is the true meaning of being "civilized"
    .... to paraphrase...
    "I could cause pain to get the information I need...but I choose not to..."

    "The vagabond who's rapping at your door
    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore." ...Bob Dylan
  • November 14, 2010 4:16 AM GMT
    Here's another scenario:
    I'm at war with you. From my perspective I'm the "good guys" and you (of course) are the "bad guys".
    If I inflict physical pain on you to gain information, (or maybe I just like it) I'm certainly not going to call it "torture", I'm going to call it "extreme interrogation" or some other gobbledegook like that.
    With me so far?
    But if you bad guys should inflict physical pain on us good guys to extract information, (or maybe you just like it), it is of course torture.
    It's all to do with perspective isn't it?
    Except it isn't.
    Inflicting pain on another human who is in a helpless situation to extract information from them is called "torture", plain and simple.
    And it is also wrong!
  • November 14, 2010 5:37 PM GMT
    A good topic,and why shouldn't us TG/S girls discuss things other than the colour of our panties?(Thanks,Marsha-!)
    I think torture is despicable in ALL circumstances-while acknowledging that my own country has been remiss in this-your Presidents' father being tortured by our troops during the 'Mau-Mau' uprising in Kenya.By the way i thought Mr.Obama was quite forgiving in the beautiful book he wrote about his father.If the 'right' wish to permit torture-'water-boarding'-etc..then let us not EVER point the finger at Nazi or Soviet atrocities or the foul atrocities committed throughout East and South Asia by the despicable WW2 Japanese!
    I'm wearing my favourite Spandex,Black 'What Katy Did' French panties!lol-xxxx
    • 871 posts
    November 16, 2010 5:42 PM GMT
    It is shocking that a country that is presumed by a lot of people to be civilised to be using such primitive techniques as water boarding to meet their ends. Whether there is any truth in the allegations, the allegations themselves helps fuel the hatred of the west by other parts of the world regardless.

    and, my knickers are pink!

    love penny
  • November 17, 2010 10:06 PM GMT
    Spot on,janis!Torture is torture and is uncivilized and has no possible justification ever and any country-wether the Third Reich,Soviet Union or United States that uses it has forfeited the right to be called 'civilized'-end of-period! Thank you.
    • 1912 posts
    November 18, 2010 12:53 AM GMT
    I guess we can just bash countries like the U.S. that "torture" (which the definition varies), but sex scandals including rape and pedophilia by UN peacekeepers is swept under the rug. Is that because the U.S. supplies the fewest UN troops which means it is troops supplied by your countries?
    The U.S. bashing continues as usual here, what's new. You are all just so perfect and know everything about everything. Maybe when a family member of yours is killed on a bombed train, plane, or building, then you will shut up. Cover your eyes and ears and maybe it will all go away.
    • Moderator
    • 252 posts
    November 18, 2010 2:56 AM GMT
    Good grief, you can't separate "good" torture from "bad" torture. This is not a matter of degrees. This goes to the heart of who we are. TORTURE DOES NOT WORK!!

    I think what this is really about is revenge, cloaked in the guise of getting info. Say torture works half the time (to be generous.) What do you do then? Roll the dice and hope your number comes up and you can get to the next level up the terrorist hierarchy? If you are wrong and the person you have is not even a terrorist, that means that most likely the info you've just gleaned for destroying a human being's psyche is exactly NOTHING. In the worst case scenario, they will lead you to more people like themselves and you can torture a whole new group of innocent people.

    What are we doing to our own people? The people who do the torturing? We are making our own brave men and women in uniform into monsters. Is that what you want? To have scarier monsters than the next guy? There is not happy ending and there is no torture that would allow me to sleep the sleep of angels.

    We do NOT need to be like these people. We do not need to rely on techniques like these. In Roman times, if you wanted information from a slave, that slave would automatically be tortured, because, as a slave, their information could not be considered legitimate unless they were tortured. Is that what we are reaching back to? 2000 years ago?

    A good friend of mine retired from the US Army as a Lieutenant Colonel. Her specialty was military intelligence. She would look through a one-way mirror while a prisoner was being interrogated. Not tortured...questioned. At the end of the interrogation, she would present a report based on body language, eye response, automatic emotional responses, a host of things. She did it with me several times to show me how it worked. It was pretty scary how accurate it was. Her accuracy was somewhere around 90%. Often, she would re-enter the room and present the info that she noticed. More often than not, the person would think they had broken someone else, and they would give it all up.

    Unless we like hurting people, we don't need torture. We can put that away with tricorn hats, petticoats and leisure suits.

    • Moderator
    • 252 posts
    November 18, 2010 2:59 AM GMT
    In my last post, I meant to say that my friend's specialty was medical intelligence, not military intelligence. *shakes head* I am soooooo tired.
    • 434 posts
    November 18, 2010 6:18 AM GMT
    Hugs Marsha,
    You know I would never bash the USA.
    Perhaps some people feel that sleep deprivation is a terribly "painful" thing. It's so "terribly cruel" to be inconvenienced by some nasty person in a uniform who is only trying to avert a situation in which many people may lose their lives.
    Perhaps the fear of drowning during "water-boarding" is emotionally painful but at least it is not in the same league as cutting someones fingers off...etc...
    In an ideal world, we could just "ask the bad guys nicely" and they would tell all - but of course, in an ideal world...there would be no wars, hatred, and violence. Neville Chamberlain showed the World how foolish it was to expect "the bad guys" will act reasonably. His foolish belief in "peace for our time" allowed things to escalate. How many people died because of it?
    Most people these days are so "wrapped up" in their own personal rights that they fail to recognize that the "general public" has a collective right to safety.

    "The vagabond who's rapping at your door
    Is standing in the clothes that you once wore."...B Dylan

  • November 18, 2010 8:44 AM GMT
    Donna,would you like to try being 'water-boarded'?Maybe a sojourn at Bagrham Airbase,Abu Ghraib or rendition flights (courtesy of your CIA)to countries that don't have any liberal and humanitarian respect for individul rights?xxr
  • November 18, 2010 9:29 AM GMT
    US-Bashing? I don't seem to remember ANY sympathy for the victims of IRA fascista in our cities throughout the 60's,70's,80's and 90's-Oh-and thanks for 'Noraid'.
    British and other NATO troops-AND from around the world have been fighting alongside yours too-so less of your petulant and ultra-right-wing remarks-also US is not theonly victim of the vile attacks of Al-Quaida-nor the only country in the world!
    Nina is wearing her old 'Y'fronts today to get in contact with her 'inner male'.
    Thank you-xx
    • 1912 posts
    November 18, 2010 12:03 PM GMT
    Doanna, Don't forget they might even play loud rock and roll music to terrorize these terrorist. And my earlier response was just a generalization, you have been consistent in your support for the U.S., thanks.
  • November 18, 2010 12:21 PM GMT
    I suppose in the scheme of things being partially drowned on a daily basis would be preferable to having your fingers cut off.
    Do they have a menu in these establishments?
  • November 18, 2010 1:34 PM GMT
    Marsha,wasn't aware we were discussing support or not for the US-we were talking about Torture-Torture is despicable and the last resort of a coward or a bad cause;water-boarding is torture-want to try it?X
    • Moderator
    • 252 posts
    November 18, 2010 2:38 PM GMT
    I am 100% against torture. And I am an American. Does that make me a traitor, Marsha?

  • November 18, 2010 4:27 PM GMT
    Zoe-well said-i am also 100% anti-torture and by no means am I anti-American;-anti-Fascist yes-AND the so-called 'Christian' Republican right which has corrupted a once great religion- .I bitterly resent the bigotted hi-jacking by such as Marsha of my Faith-also her bullies' resort to screaming-'Traitor',at anybody who has the temerity to disagree with her far-right and crypto-Nazi philosophy.
    What was the rule about us showing our portraits-difficult to dialogue with a mannequin,Donna!
    Am wearing some rather dinky spandexed panties with the US flag design tomorrow-does that mean I get sent on a flight to 'Gitmo',Marsha or any other of your Concentration camps?Have a nice evening!xx
  • November 18, 2010 6:20 PM GMT
    Marsha said.

    The U.S. bashing continues as usual here, what's new. You are all just so perfect and know everything about everything. Maybe when a family member of yours is killed on a bombed train, plane, or building, then you will shut up. Cover your eyes and ears and maybe it will all go away.

    Why do you think its a US bashing exercise, I'm sure the UK is complicit in whatever goes on, in fact the UK Government is too squeamish and PC to actually indulge in such practices but quite happy for the rewards it brings in the way of information and so called inteligence it receives to me that that is even worse, condoning something in secret but screaming human rights to the rest of the world..

    I was attempting to ascertain if peoples concience included themselves if they or loved ones, if it directly affected them. The thing is I Don't know, I think I would get of my high ground and thank god if it affected me directly Now that is what being a hypocrit is realy about.

    Is it a fact for example that the SAS execute terrorists at the end of a confrontation as in the Iranian Embassy seige. Basically going round and shooting wounded and probably unarmed people in the head where they lay. kettle and pot spring to mind if one is turning this into a our morals are higher than their morals.

    stop being so paranoid Marsha.
    • 1912 posts
    November 18, 2010 7:18 PM GMT
    Sorry Cris, I don't mean to be so paranoid, lol. I am basically agreeing with you. You are one of the few that attempts to think logically that if this was life or death for someone you cared about, wouldn't you go to all ends to help them. Apparently many here would just sit on their asses and watch their friends die. I'm just curious, do you think they would send a thank you card after their friend was killed?

    Next on the list, Zoey being 100% anti-torture. That is okay, I'm 100% pro-torture when applied for the right reason, and that is to save lives. And does that make you a traitor? Absolutely not, you have your right to your opinion, you just need to understand not everyone shares your opinion.

    And Nina, it warms my heart to know you are riled up over this, lol. I just want you to know it was me personally who hijacked uhm, what was it you said, oh yeah, your faith, lol. Please make sure the history books get that right, it is Marsha with "sha" not "cia". And I will have you know I will instruct my "bullies" to cheer you on as you wear your panties emblazoned with the U.S. flag. The best part of that is I will have the satisfaction of knowing you will be thinking of me.


  • November 18, 2010 7:22 PM GMT
    Martian,you are a mealy-mouthed and dissembling Fascist.xx
  • November 18, 2010 8:06 PM GMT
    Marsha "I'm !00% pro- torture",

    I'm stunned at your attitude, You're of to Thailand very soon, did you know this isn't a very stable country? (although I believe, peaceful at the moment) Anyway I'm sure they'll be looking very closely at any one arriving there, I wonder what you would think if they detected something nasty on your clothes? a poison perhaps? ( you do use some nasty chemicals quite legally in the US) I wonder what you'd agree to under torture? after all they'd be quite justified to torture you under such circumstances (according to your beliefs) perhaps you would confess to being a terrorist! plotting the down fall of the Thai government, you could then be quickly executed and every one would be happy because "hundreds of innocent lives have been saved by your capture and torture!

    Torture is wrong, it doesn't work and quoting stupid "to save your family scenario's" is just as stupid as mine above ( at least I hope so for your sake! )



    Ps. I'm not some soppy liberal hiding my head in the sand, If my family were threatened I'd get a gun a fight back.
    • 1912 posts
    November 18, 2010 8:45 PM GMT
    Hi Rebecca,

    Thai people tend to be very friendly people. But like the rest of our governments, theirs lends itself to some corruption. My step-mother is a Thai citizen, so I actually have some personal knowledge about Thailand. But the biggest part is they are good people.

    The whole topic here has been blown out of proportion. Cris was basically asking if it came down to it, would there be things such as torture that you would not do to save a loved one. Personally I would kill the bastards then ask questions later. But I definitely would not rule out anything. I am far from saying torture is always wrong. The flip side is there better be a damn good reason to use it though.

    Now for me being tortured and killed, if it made lots of people happy and I did not die in vain, so be it. Just remember to spell my name right in the history books, Marsha with "sha" not "cia".

    And P.S., lol. I am happy to see you would get a gun and fight back if your family was threatened. I'm already one step ahead of you, I have one (legal) and as you can probably imagine, I wouldn't think twice about using it to protect my family.

  • November 18, 2010 9:32 PM GMT
    Government torture is alive and well in Thailand.
    The favoured method seems to be partial suffocation by tying a plastic bag over the victims head, a sort of cousin of water boarding.
    Oh and the favoured method of execution is beheading, but I don't know if it's done in public, (probably not, awfully bad for the tourist trade!)
  • November 18, 2010 9:43 PM GMT
    Marsha-words MEAN things!Lie down and have a rest,then THINK!
    1)What if a suspect happened to be your son/daughter?
    2)Shooting first-and then asking questions later-that's murder isn't it?
    3)You' don't mind being tortured or killed so long as it makes people happy'-even I wouldn't be happy at your demise,particularly in those circumstances!
    4)How could it be that you are in any scenario where you had the choice -or not-of not'dying in vain'?
    5)So you would be happy to use a gun-who are you trying to impress and who is getting things out of proportion?
    Hope I got your name right!xx
    • Moderator
    • 252 posts
    November 18, 2010 9:45 PM GMT
    Marsha, I simply hope that one day you will realize that there is no "right reason" for using torture. Only "reasons FROM the right."

  • November 18, 2010 10:14 PM GMT
    Girls,I am not some smug Brit-(What have we to be so smug about!)-I know about our disgusting colonial record and even within the British Isles-imagine what 'Hanging,drawing and quartering' must have been like and yet it was used as recently as-I think-1665 in London-on one of the beheaded King Charles' Judges.
    What saddens me is that we are being dragged-often willingly into the same levels of barbarism as our loathsome enemy.
    Another thing that plays on my mind;as a young student I remembered being deeply disillusioned by the famous 'Milgram' experiment carried out in a US university-will spare you the details but I could NEVER any more see civilization in the optimistic light I had had hitherto-and YES-I knew more than enough about the Holocaust!
    It 'COULD happen here'-AND is doing so now-within our own hearts-AND in our own Security Forces-all the excuses I have heard for torture were rehearsed in Nazi Germany and by its' apologists.
    If I got a bit personal it's because i firmly believe that one must tell the truth to power-one must stand up and say things that most people-particularly in dreadful times like the present-might not like.It is also cowardly and stupid to 'hide behind a piece of cloth'-to plead 'patriotism'-the easiest thing in the world to do-particularly in the most militaristic and nationalistic country on the planet!xx
  • November 18, 2010 11:33 PM GMT
    Wow what was that loud bang? Oh it was thunder. Thank goodness I thought for a moment oil had been discovered in the West Midlands and we were being "liberated".
    • 2068 posts
    November 18, 2010 11:51 PM GMT
    " I'm 100% pro-torture when applied for the right reason,".....Marsha there is NEVER a right reason for torture, surely someone as " intelligent" ( allegedly) can see that. I think its a bit Rich of you to slate other countries and people, while your " Civilised " Country still has the death penalty in use.

    As for panties emblazoned with the stars & stripes?.....STUFF THAT!!....i'd have the Scottish Saltire on mine because we all know you hate the Scots.

  • November 19, 2010 12:07 AM GMT
    I am just trying to equate Neville Chamberlain who yes procrastinated (along with the rest of the world of course) in dealing with a European threat, for the obvious reason of trying to avert a world war with being responsible for the 50million deaths that resulted.
    • 1912 posts
    November 19, 2010 1:23 AM GMT
    I'm trying to figure out where to start. I guess a good place is Anna's comment about capital punishment. I happen to be most definitely in favor of capital punishment and believe the orchestrated dragging out of appeals is torture for the victims. I believe there should be a set period like 5 years to post all appeals and if the appeals are not fruitful, that is it. And Anna, I could not distinguish a Scot from any other Brit. I think you are great people and the only downside is your dry humor. Besides, I get a kick out of the funny way you talk, lol. Hugs.

    When I make comments like I would shoot first then ask questions, I'm laughing at you. The point of it is I would do anything to protect my family and I see that as self defense, not murder.

    I think many of the comments indicate you gals are living in a fantasy world hoping to find Utopia. I'm sorry, but you need to open your eyes and realize that EVIL exists in the world and sometimes you have to take extraordinary measures to deal with it. It is only extreme cases where lives are in jeopardy that I would ever condone the use of such harsh tactics.

    Believe me, I understand how you can feel we need to be above others and set a positive example. However it is my opinion that the current EVIL we face could care less about our civilized behavior. I am not as barbaric as you might be thinking. I too would like a world where this stuff does not go on. Unfortunately this period in time is not that time.


    P.S. I have always been upfront that I am right of center with my politics. However I am far from the extreme right nut jobs. And likewise I don't like the far left progressive movement. Fiscally I am conservative, socially I am much more liberal. I don't believe you have to be one or the other. I also want to remind you that I am the moderator of this forum and I have not edited or hidden a single post in this thread. I've allowed everyone to say their piece. I believe that is what goes on in a civilized world, and we don't all have to agree.
    • Moderator
    • 252 posts
    November 19, 2010 2:38 AM GMT
    In some cases, evil is overwhelming. The Holocaust, Milosovich, Stalin, Jeffery Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy. Mass murderers and child molesters/killers. Those are the blackest of the black evil.

    But there are other evils that are not so black and white. Somewhere around half of the population of the US thinks that the LGBT community is evil. Some think that abortion is evil. Some think that threatening social programs like Social Security and Medicare is evil. Some people believe that merely being an Arab is evil.

    In nearly every case, save the remarkable evil listed in the opening of this post, evil is a moveable feast. One person's evil is another's choice or another's life. Labelling an individual or a group as "evil" leads to a lot of evil on the side of the "righteous."

    • 1912 posts
    November 19, 2010 3:18 AM GMT
    That is a good way of putting it Zoey, and it is truly the darkest evil I make exceptions for. I believe all options must be available when we are faced with such horrific possibilities.

    On a slightly different note but still about evil, I hope those here, the TGs of Gender Society, realize when the time comes that society fully accepts gays and lesbians, TGs will likely replace them as the most hated community on the planet. That doesn't mean everyone will hate us, but just as gays and lesbians have gradually blended into society and taken a beating along the way, so will we. Right now we are somewhat hidden, but as society allows more of us to be visible, more of us will be targets of evil before it gets better. Basically the evils of today will be replaced with the evils of tomorrow. We have a ways to go before we reach Utopia.

    • 434 posts
    November 19, 2010 4:05 AM GMT
    Anna, what you said is totally ridiculous and your making the statement (below) only shows just how IGNORANT (Aineolach) you are!!
    And personally, I'd prefer the "Lion Rampant" emblazoned on my panties...

    "As for panties emblazoned with the stars & stripes?.....STUFF THAT!!....i'd have the Scottish Saltire on mine because we all know you hate the Scots."

    Spoken like the "Gairbheil Gailleart" that you are...
    A bheil Gaidhlig agaibh?

    I'll let you in on a couple of facts,
    1) There are more "Highland Games" held in the USA than in all of the UK
    2) Far more people participate in them and more people go to see them as well
    3) There are more Bagpipes played in the USA than in the UK

    You should think...before you say things..

    "and my needs entwined, like ribbons of light...and I came through the doorway, some where... in the night"