November 23, 2010 8:39 AM GMT
Doanna, I'm appalled by your post. I too am "on the dole". That's what happens when you break your back. If that makes me a slacker (damn lazy back) Then I guess I'm a slacker.
I don't know. Water boarding people who are maybe guilty, maybe not might allow you to sleep better at night, for me, it means sleepless nights, or very late nights. Because my value system isn't based on someone's skin color, or who their friends of friends of friends are.
Short scenario: You have a decent job. You have a family. You have friends. One of your friends at work (an Arab) gives you a gift one day for helping him on a project. He just ran to the store to pick it up, so it's in a brown paper bag. Unfortunately, it's something you already have. Your friend tells you to do as you like with it and so, you give it to a different friend of yours, after all, it's a good gift, you just have it already. Yes, your crime is "re-gifting".
Well, some men from the government have had your Arab friend under survaillance and when they can't find the friend who you gave the item in the brown bag to, they pull all of you in for a friendly chat. You see, that bag might have been full of detonators and they want to get to the bottom of things. So, now you are being water boarded. Citizen of the US or UK be damned. After all, they flew you on a jet for several hours. You have no idea where you are because you were "black bagged" before your little plane ride started. You might be in a tiny country in the Caribbean, maybe Eastern Europe, maybe Africa, no way to tell. Because you are on a long wooden board and your upper body is submerged in water until you are choking and coughing, your lungs are on fire and you just hope you get the water out of your lungs before you go under water again. Your ordeal goes on and on, because, since you are not a terrorist, you have no information to give, you can't even create a somewhat plausable lie because this cloak and dagger is not something you know anything about.
That's what keeps mee up at night. Innocent people being tortured. Think it doesn't happen? Oh yes, it happens. It happens every single day. The fact that these people are Palestinian or Iraqi, or Lebanese, or Jordanian, etc. etc. allows you to sleep the sleep of angels. The ironic thing is that innocent people get the worst treatment, they are all SURE the innocent are holding out on them.
It sounds to me, in fact, that you sleep better BECAUSE we torture, not in spite of torture, which bothers me quite a bit.
Oh, and Marsha, if you are going to have a drink while we all are screaming and wretching water from our lungs and puking blood, why don't you strum that fiddle while the world burns down around you?
Z
November 23, 2010 8:42 AM GMT
Oh i know it's such a crazy scenario!! After all, you having an Arab friend? LOL Nearly science fiction.
Z
November 23, 2010 2:03 PM GMT
Zoe,
I think your scenario about the brown bag and the "re-gifting" is a bit far-fetched,
- First of all, they would get a warrant to search your house and the houses of the other two individuals involved.
- Second, they would find nothing at your house that could possibly add to their suspicions and a background check on you would not support their initial suspicions either.
- Third, because their was nothing to support their initial suspicions..they would have no reason to "ship you abroad to be water-boarded"
My point being; we all have to place our trust in the people who make the higher level decisions in our respective Countries. I am not saying they are perfect and some "human errors" do occur - but do we "throw out the baby with the bath-water"?
Can you honestly believe that an official of any "Western" Government would waste resources (and risk the consequences) having someone water-boarded without at LEAST...a valid suspicion?
In view of all that has happened, how many wrongful water-boardings have been proven to be "without reasonable cause"?
November 23, 2010 3:01 PM GMT
Alison,
As the saying goes..."History is written by the Victors"
Do you think that Sophie was "a heroine and a martyr to the cause of freedom."? After all, she did promote sabotage and surely some people would have been killed as a result of those acts of sabotage. She may have been a self-proclaimed pacifist in her own mind but she promoted the violence associated with the sabotage. Perhaps Germany would have won the war if Sophie and others like her had not taken the stand they took. Perhaps, in the end, Sophie's actions saved far more lives than were lost because of increased sabotage.
A number of people in this thread (myself included) support water-boarding and sleep deprivation as a means of possibly saving many lives. Yet, I too dislike violence ...just like Sophie - but I too, am willing to go against my convictions if it is absolutely necessary.
The necessity of the situation is the real thing we need to be certain of. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as "Never Necessary" and fortunately, there is no such thing as "Always Necessary"
Your posting this story may have helped to clarify some positions in this thread..and was certainly not irrelevant.
November 23, 2010 3:30 PM GMT
I am disgusted and ashamed to be a member of such a reactionary and mean-minded group of people-didn't know the KKK was alive still and 'Kicking ass' still in the US-shame on you-Donna and Marcia!
Had my belly-full of you-good bye!Sieg Heil!
November 23, 2010 4:14 PM GMT
Oh Donna,
I've not laughed so much for days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You support the indiscriminate Torture of the "Evil Foreigner" without a blink then say that the security services will get a "warrant" to search a suspects house before said torture would occur???
Or perhaps your point is that only "north Americans" deserve the protection of the law?
How many wrongful "Water-boardings" have been proved to be "without reasonable cause" - None of course, at least none that we'll ever hear about. How many actually "saved lives" as claimed?
I can't believe the drivel written in support of what is a discredited and barbaric practice.
Becca
November 23, 2010 4:15 PM GMT
Doanna, it is all a conspiracy, I just know it.
Hugs,
Marsha
November 24, 2010 1:43 AM GMT
"Doanna, it is all a conspiracy, I just know it."
Hugs,
Marsha
No you don't.
Seriously 'though, please give me one good reason to hang on in there with trannyweb / gender society? I hate the bitchiness, I hate the warfare. I can totally understand the 'I'm female, goodbye'. I hate the onslaughts, I hate the pillaging. Just give me one simple reason after the surprising attacks ...
November 24, 2010 2:02 AM GMT
How pleasant that the memory of someone such as Sophie Scholl would be blighted in a forum from a society that wishes to be tollerated and treated with understanding by society. I wonder if someone is merely tryingto rile people
November 24, 2010 2:39 AM GMT
Rae, that was said as a joke. I'm sorry you missed it. And I'm sorry I can't say cat is spelled with a "c" without getting jumped on here by the usual people. I often ask myself the same thing you are asking.
Hugs,
Marsha
November 24, 2010 2:40 AM GMT
"Rae" one good reason why to hang in there. Over the years you have been a valued voice of reason, And many such as myself would truly miss you.
As for the thread. ITS GOT A TAD OUT OF HAND!!
November 24, 2010 5:04 AM GMT
Rae, and Jane, thank you for your comforting conclusions.
I will say again, I think we have slightly gone to the us against us! We need not worry about them.
It makes me wonder, what some new girls, or the cautious girls in here think.
Tammy
November 24, 2010 5:20 AM GMT
Rebecca,
1) I never supported the indiscriminate use of torture at all! There is nothing indiscriminate about getting a warrant. Over here, you need "probable cause" and usually a judge to approve it!!
2) Where in any of my postings did you read that? Why don't you copy where I posted that I support indiscriminate use of torture and post it for all to see...instead of lying!!!
I question why you choose to lie about what I said - does it make you feel "morally superior" or is it just a feeble attempt at twisting what I said ...to gain support for your own position in the matter. If you need to lie to validate what you believe in....then you should question that belief?
"You support the indiscriminate Torture of the "Evil Foreigner" without a blink then say that the security services will get a "warrant" to search a suspects house before said torture would occur??? "
----------------------------------------------------
Remember girls!!!...the Soylent Green is always stored on the "left" side of the pantry
November 24, 2010 5:45 AM GMT
Donna,
I was merely commenting upon how your post sounded to me, - Laughable..
You obviously missed my point completely, or perhaps just ignored it, as it doesn't suit yours?
I've better things to do than to cut and paste then comment directly upon every detail, I also find that behaviour rude and totally unnecessary.
Becca
November 24, 2010 5:57 AM GMT
nina,
What does the KKK and "Sieg Heil!" have to do with what has been said?
Do you just add that crap for effect?
"I am disgusted and ashamed to be a member of such a reactionary and mean-minded group of people-didn't know the KKK was alive still and 'Kicking ass' still in the US-shame on you-Donna and Marcia!
Had my belly-full of you-good bye!Sieg Heil! "
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November 24, 2010 6:22 AM GMT
Alison,
If you care to read what I posted again, you will see that I was not "blighting" Sophie at all. In fact, I was supporting what she did.
The point I was making, was that although Sophie was a "pacifist" ...she still helped out as much as she could. Although she could not bring herself to "directly" do violent acts, she at least realized that sabotage was in fact, necessary. She had the courage to act (in her own way) and helped the situation. She did not just "stick her head in the sand" ...like so many others did.
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November 24, 2010 9:33 AM GMT
Basically-that you are a mean-minded reactionary and can't take criticism.OK?
November 24, 2010 5:00 PM GMT
Rae. xxXxx
I will give you one good reason, but firstly, people should not question your integrity or question your own personal beliefs. The reason...,Your moral code should be the basis for any aspiring civilised society. I would like to think like you do, but know I do not have the courage. I was rather amazed that someone questioned why I raised this thread.. All because basically I had one of those what if moments and found myself confused. being a ''Tranny'' is not all about thongs or knickers etc, etc, some of us are interested in the plight of the world,, Now and again having a serious moment of thought about what a depraved and dastardly species we can be.
Some of the rhetoric in here would suggest some are not so genteel and if one has a different opinion or a different moral code they would like to smash your face in??? What next lol would they waterboard you into their way of thinking???
November 24, 2010 5:32 PM GMT
Hi Cristine,
I was the one who questioned this thread, but it was not the subject but rather the timing.
We had just had threads frozen and posts hidden due to "us vs. them" or "them vs. us" type posts. While you are entitled to post anything you want anytime you want, a UK resident questioning a US torture procedure in the hostile environment you did could have easily set off the nastiness again. I feared this would open fresh wounds.
Happily, while it has hardly been civil ("stick it up your ass") it has been relatively free of the UK vs. USA type bickering.
For the record, in 600 plus posts I have hardly, if ever, mentioned panties.
Best,
Mellie
November 24, 2010 5:55 PM GMT
Melody,
Sorry I had not considered that, and I was'nt having a dig, The Uk is not the innocent in all this either.. Bush was just news at the time with his biography, was just an example and ask people to question their own ethics if their lives depended on someone else being tortured. I was rather disappointed that someone like Rae was'nt being taken seriously. and Rae's integrity was under question.
November 24, 2010 7:43 PM GMT
Melody,
This definitely isn't a thread of Us vs UK, The British government under Tony Blair is every bit as guilty As the Bush Administration, and there has been as many arguments against torture from the US members as from the UK.
It was of course started, as Cristine states by Bush's comments in his memoirs, though there has been a lot of controversy in the UK over the last few years due to "British"subjects being tortured by the US with the full knowledge of the British security service and government, no charges were ever brought against these men. (Compensation of several million pounds has recently been agreed with them to halt a potentially embarrassing court case)
Becca
November 24, 2010 9:07 PM GMT
My sincere apologies all! I'm not sure exactly when the last time was I had a little hissy fit! Can I blame the hormones? Thankyou for the kind comments they were deeply appreciated. Everyone is welcome to their opinion, of course, I just think I need to withdraw from the thread anyway before I put my foot somewhere which - given my personal beliefs - can only be my mouth again!
Love and hugs
Rae xxxxxx
November 25, 2010 2:29 AM GMT
Ok, people. Those of you who do not know the difference between attacking an argument/position and attacking an individual are about to start having your posts deleted/edited or this thread suspended. Please read this link so that you will understand the difference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w[...]abusive
Ad hominem abuse (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting or belittling one's opponent in order to invalidate his or her argument, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensible character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions.
We do NOT flame here at TGS. Please conduct yourselves as Ladies and Gentlemen or any properly behaved individual in between those heteronormative places.
Please stop making our work harder than it already is. Thank you.
November 27, 2010 10:17 AM GMT
This thread is hereby suspended due to continuing personal attacks substituting for the issue under discussion. Abuse will not be tolerated in The Forums. If you are that angry at a member, do not post.it. Take it private. THIS IS A LONG STANDING POLICY of this website.
Time for honesty, Well Osama Bin Laden is dead, killed by US troops. Right how many of you, so opposed to waterboarding, Jumped with glee and punched the air shouting YESSSSS got you, you bastard. How many think this act was legal, landing on foreign soil. Executing an apparent unarmed man. No tral. just.. bang... bang. Yes i understand the complications and repercussions of putting him on trial.
While I'm certainly glad Bin Laden is dead, in a way I think he won. The US turned it's back on it's principles and the chances we'll ever know what actually happed in that compound are nonexistant, it's pretty clear that it was a state sponsored murder or assassination.
I understand why: what do you do with a live Bin Laden, where do you try him, what new terrorist attacks would be done in retaliation for that trial, and there would have been endless political prices to pay no matter how Obama pursued it. A series of no win situations.
And therein lies the rub, do you do what is politically expedient or do you follow your principles no matter what?
May 23, 2011 11:36 PM BST
I'm not rejoicing that he's dead, but think the world is a better place without him. his god will judge him for his henious crimes. I don't think the Americans had any choice, Its my personal opinion they have carried out an expediant and justified mission enacting revenge for all those innocents killed on their own soil. War is war, soldier against soldier enemies, What make a terrorist different is deliberately slaughtering innocent people and celebrating their deaths. Obama played it right as far as i'm concered, he displayed no glee or jubilation. just a matter of fact that in some small way justice was done.
August 1, 2011 9:58 PM BST
Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
This post was edited by Princess Layla at August 1, 2011 10:03 PM BST
August 1, 2011 10:30 PM BST
I gave up on this thread, I thought it had been suspended. The people doing most of the shouting avoided the question, which was directed at each individual on a what if basis. dragging the thread into a pitiful abuse of peoples right to an honest opinion. Typical example of why some people avoid the forums, it was a fair and logical question. I made it quite clear and riterated the point it was not an us and them topic, it was about personal morality and would you think differently if you as an individual were directly affected.
August 1, 2011 11:26 PM BST
I think its fair to say I'd rather claw my own face off than get involved in this sort of rubbish.
Conflict doesnt belong on this site.
October 24, 2012 12:14 PM BST
torture will only make these people more angry, especially if some of them are innocent and without a trial. These men will have this trauma for the rest of their lives and will seek revenge, and each time they talk about the torture on tv or internet, this breeds more hate. It's the same as hitting a naughty child, we only show violence to be copied later. What happens to many abused kids, they grow up, and many want revenge. I just think that torture is not the way to go.
