Forum » Gender Society Public Forums » General Forum » Heteronormativity

Heteronormativity

  • Geez, when I was young around the time of the Second Crusade, it was OK to beat the girl out of the boy!!! (I was born in 1950)  And when I was asking my parents to let me play outside in my sister's clothes at age 4 and 5, that's what my father did!!!  My mother would look the other way when he went to work and was OK as long as I didn't wander outside to the playgrounds.  I spent many an hour trying on and wearing my mother and sister's clothing.  (smile)

    Traci xoxo

    <p>Traci</p>
      June 23, 2017 1:50 AM BST
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    Wow.  Just finished this thread.  Awsome posts as always Crissie.  The comment about the failure of psychiatry to "Cure" transgenderism is interesting and sort of reminds me of those weird American christian camps where, if a parent suspects their son is gay, they ship them off to "Pray the gay away".  I wonder how that is working out for them or if they have similar for transgender kids.  The Americans can be a bit scary like that.

     

    Anyway, great post.  Keep up the good work.

     

    Alice

      June 22, 2017 8:48 PM BST
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  • (smile)  Thnx!!  You always have the ability to present some very interesting threads...you're our very own "library" in here!  I so wish we were closer...would love to spend hours with you just yakking away over some drinks, laughing until we're hoarse, and solving all the world's issues!  Someday!!!

    Traci xoxo

    <p>Traci</p>
      June 22, 2017 6:34 PM BST
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  • And a very thoghtful an inteligent response from you Traci, always lovely to hear of personal experiences and feelings.

    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      June 22, 2017 2:26 PM BST
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  • Whoa...lots to digest Crissie!  and pretty thorough too...

    I sometimes feel "two spirited" in that I "live" actively in both a strong male environment with my volunteering and relate pretty well to them, but then revert back to the feminine world when finished.  If I had to choose one, it would be the feminine side. not so much for all the pretty things and all, but rather for the compassion, insight, clarity, and willingness to see things thru to a proper conclusion.  I have no desire to "win", dominate, or generally act like an ass...  Almost 8 years of hormones have smoothed over the rough edges and have allowed me to move about comfortably without drawing negative attention.  In order to hold my marriage together and remain with the only person I have ever loved, I "stradle" both gender binaries in day to day living.  But for me, being "two spirited" provides me the ability to grasp some deeper rooted issues affecting both binaries and offer a real understanding of the drivers that are behind things that normally the other gender cannot see.  I've IDd internally as a girl since my earliest recollections, then dealt with the harsh realities of physically being something else, all the while keeping the "me" intact thru all these years.  It has only been in the last 12-15 years, and especially the the last 8 on HRT that I've allowed the female to manifest herself in my daily living.  I'm content and in a very "happy place".

     

    Nice thread GF!!!

     

    Traci xoxo

    <p>Traci</p>
      June 22, 2017 1:14 AM BST
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  • Crissie! Please forgive me but I am the thick one here. I read through your work you know I do. Do I understand it all? No I do not and I am not afraid to admit it.

     

    I am me I can figure that out. Psychiatrists may help people but they do not have the answers , some think there is a cure. There is only one true cure and that is to be who you are. It is 100% natural for any person to be themselves. No Psychological test or intervention can cure it. However much a Psychiatrist may think they have a cure they are wrong.

     

    I am cured and a Psychiatrist played no part in that. The one who played the biggest part was me. The London Gender Clinic helped and I am very gratefull to them. I am a genetic fault! Nature scewed up and I along with millions of others have to live with it but , it can be done. It is harder for some than it is for others due to so many reasons. I really do not mind being me.

    I hope that made sense but I have no other answer. You amaze me with your work and I thank you for sharing it.

     

    Take care xxx

     

      February 19, 2015 8:45 PM GMT
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  • That darn Steven Hawkings is not normal.  Should we get rid of him?

     

    Pope Francis is not normal...for a Pope. (Thank God)....but get rid of him?  I think not.

     

    The list goes on.

     

     

     

    "A live lived in fear is a life half-lived." - Native American proverb. "Inside every man is a woman who was drowned in testosterone before birth". - Wendy Jeanette Larsen "It is better to be hated for what you are than loved for what you're not." - Andre Gide (French writer)
      November 27, 2014 9:17 AM GMT
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    Madeleine Grant: We are not sick. We are not freaks. Why is it so hard not to feel like one sometimes?

    Marissa Mallo: I AM a freak but that's a story for another time...

    Lillith Cross: Normality is a myth. We are not sick or freaks. We are just extra special :)

    Cristine, Shye (GS Admin): Freak is such an ugly word., (freak the unatural) no its not natural in mainstream (NORMAL) society, BUT because we are special people, it is natural to us, thats important. Perhaps this should be added to :-
    http://gendersociety.com/forums/topic/7805/heteronormativity

    Cristine, Shye (GS Admin): I will allways remember something my aunt told a neighbour, when that person told her I was a freak and needed sorting,. My aunt replied well our house is probably the most valuable in the street, because we don't have freaks and weird tranny's living next door to us.

    Madeleine Grant: Perhaps it's just semantics, but while I acknowledge that we're not 'normal' I reject the notion that we're not normal, regardless of what society we are a part of. Does that make sense? I think it does.


      May 29, 2014 8:42 PM BST
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  • For most of the six-billion people who occupy this planet few things in our ever evolving lives are completely static, completely unchanging and rigid. Hardly ever do we give second thought to the things we believe are static and cannot change, but are we correct in assuming that anything in our life is permanent? The relation of gender (our mental constructions of being male or female [or perhaps even neither]) to sex (the anatomy of our bodies) can be such a thing. Although throughout our life the world around us, that which is immediate and that which is distant, ebbs like tides, ever-changing, we know so well that some things – such as our bodies – will always remain familiar. We may move between jobs, between cities or nations, even friends come and go, but we do not fear ever waking to find ourselves in a new body, with a new sex, or even with a new sense of gender. This though is only what we think is true.
    There are some people though, unmentioned, often unseen or forgotten, perceived as alien: like strangers in a strange world who we feel incapable of relating to. The intersex, the transsexual, drag queens and drag kings, even cross dressers deconstruct that which we may feel can never be questioned: how our perception of sex and gender seem to be linked; if I feel male then I am male and if I am male then I must feel male. Yet the truth is that our physical sex, and the more personal gender, are capable of becoming disjointed with one another. It is through the individuals previously mentioned though where we may find that which we felt so sure of before, our bodies, may in fact be no more immalleable than our dress styles. For it is from these people and out of their stories that we should recognize the often unseen truth behind sex and gender: that both are neither static, but are rather dynamic identities that are not only capable of change but capable of remodeling over-and-over throughout all of our lives.

     

    You get home at the end of a long day at work. You come inside, scoff down some food, and decide its time to hit the hay. You head to the bathroom and as you brush those pearly whites, you stare into the mirror and see somebody staring right back at you. If you’re anything like me, sometimes that person is an exact replica of you; a backwards version of that good lookin’ self you remember. Other times though, you see some stranger staring right back. This person doesn’t look like you at all. This person looks too thick, too thin, you see a pudgy stomach where you once imagined washboard abs, you see blemishes, the wrong hair color, the wrong eye color, the wrong image, the wrong person. Now imagine that every single time you looked into that mirror the wrong person was staring back. You just could not find a way to relate to that reflection. For individuals who were born with an intersexed condition, this is exactly how they can feel every single day.

    Our Society is based on two binaries. First is the sex binary that inevitably leads to a gender binary. It leads us to believe that there are two sexes, male and female which relate to the body and these sexes must adhere to their assumed genders, man or woman. Men act masculine and women act feminine. Almost every aspect of our culture has been separated to fit into either category. Things are either masculine or feminine and the system usually discourages people from mixing gender roles. For the majority of the population, we except this system and believe that bodies can only come in two forms and these forms follow their norms. What that majority doesn’t realize is that there is the possibility to be neither male nor female or both male and female or somewhere in between. One of these categories of people that do not fall into the categories of the sex binary those who are born intersexed.

    Immediately after birth, we are categorized as either male or female. But there is a large percentage (1 in 2000) whose biological sex cannot be classified. These individuals are known as intersexed (Wilchins, 72). Chromosomal and hormonal irregularities can cause a new born to have atypical, and usually ambiguous, genitalia and gonads. For many years, surgical procedures have been performed soon after birth in order to build a less ambiguous looking genitalia allowing for easier classification. The doctors would usually assign a sex as quickly as possible. More often than not, the child was assigned to be a female because it is an easier procedure (Beck). Once the aesthetics of the genitalia have been normalized, the parents would then raise their child as a female. The problem with this is that often the child will have a hormonal imbalance and genitalia that does not function fully causing for much confusion as the child reaches puberty and onward. Intersexed individuals are one of the many groups that suffer through our social construct of a sex and gender binary because they are forced into living a life as a sex and gender other than their own. They are forced to live a life identifying as either male or female because a third or fourth or even fifth option is not available.

    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
    This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at July 2, 2016 9:11 PM BST
      December 8, 2013 4:35 PM GMT
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    Landing Outside of the Sex Binary

    Am I a man or a woman? That’s not a question that most people ask themselves every morning when they wake up and look in the mirror. It’s a knowledge that you grow up with and know visually from the look of your genitals: but what if that’s not the case with everyone? This is the reality that some adults experience when they learn that they were born intersex: the reality that they were not distinctively one sex or the other but had biological aspects of both. Where does ones life go from there and how damaging is that knowledge to your own self-identity?

    In many cases, intersex people are not informed of their condition until late adolescence or even early adulthood. This has proven to be very damaging to individuals because of the two-sexed society in which our culture operates. There are only two possible sexes and everyone who does not fit into them perfectly, faces some form of persecution. What our society does not account for is the fact that about one in every fifteen hundred babies is born with ambiguous genitalia that can be defined as intersex (Lareau 1). Modern society is constructed in a way that assumes that people can only be male or female but the facts do not actually support this strict view.

    Personal accounts of people born intersex provide insight into the difficulties that accompany this diagnosis. Almost every person emphasizes that his/her intersex diagnosis was most difficult because of our society’s two-sex way of thinking. The intersex condition fundamentally challenges modern society simply because there is not a place for its existence. As a result of contemporary society’s rigid views toward sex, being born intersex can result in feelings of shame, sexual deficiencies, and a lifetime of questioning ones own self-identity.

     

    http://genderbinary.wikidot.com/landing-out-sex-binary

    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      December 7, 2013 9:20 PM GMT
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  • Great articles. They were very informative and really make you think about the societies we live in. Our societies seem to dichotomize gender and sex when it really isn’t that simple. These are things that have many more categories and those that don’t seem to fit with one of the other are stigmatized and discriminated against.  From the day were born its blue and pink trucks or cars. We are taught from day one what a boy is supposed to be and a girl it supposed to be, it’s sad sad.

      May 8, 2013 10:12 PM BST
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  • A few likes any more interesting comments, updates?
    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      February 21, 2013 1:51 AM GMT
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  • The Forum Post That Would Not Die has reached its second anniversary. Well done Cristine. Keep it going.
    "A live lived in fear is a life half-lived." - Native American proverb. "Inside every man is a woman who was drowned in testosterone before birth". - Wendy Jeanette Larsen "It is better to be hated for what you are than loved for what you're not." - Andre Gide (French writer)
      December 18, 2012 11:50 AM GMT
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  • Carol

    In the view of the promoters of Heteronormativity the perceived norm it does not, considered as a life style choice at the worst a perversion. But if you read the Synopsis of the etiology of Gender, which should be read in conjunction with this thread, it proves otherwise, with scientific documentation, it can even be determined as heriditary in some cases, a probablity even before conception.

     

    http://gendersociety.com/forums/topic/7790/synopsis-of-the-etiology-of-gend

     

    Just one small example from the above link:-   
    Sometimes two separate zygotes (fertilized ova) can fuse shortly after conception and develop into a single embryo with two different DNAs.

     

    In fact. it can be predetermined even prior to conception a forgone conclusion is some cases.

    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
    This post was edited by Cristine Jennifer Shye. BL at July 2, 2016 8:52 PM BST
      October 25, 2012 3:02 PM BST
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  • Cristine, Shye (GS Admin) said:

    For the individual gender construction and identity starts at birth, .............

    For some it might, but modern science is now finding differences in parts of the brain associated with gender - this would mean that for many transsexuals, it means that gender starts to be formed and differentiated before birth, not after birth.It would seem that researchers are proving that it is nature and not nurture that is the derterming factor here.

      October 25, 2012 2:53 PM BST
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  • great thread, thanks for the interesting information
      October 24, 2012 12:31 PM BST
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  • Read a second-wave feminist essay, Gender Slumming by Annalee Newitz that opposed transgendered and transsexual persons. Over time she came to reconsider her perspective.

     

    http://www.genderpsychology.org/gender_queer/gender_slumming.html

    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      April 4, 2012 9:58 PM BST
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  • Well, Chrissy, it has been reported that, until WWII, pink and blue were used interchangably for boys and girls (except maybe by the French). After that, it was blue for boys. Women, as usual, got to wear what they wanted to.
    "A live lived in fear is a life half-lived." - Native American proverb. "Inside every man is a woman who was drowned in testosterone before birth". - Wendy Jeanette Larsen "It is better to be hated for what you are than loved for what you're not." - Andre Gide (French writer)
      March 27, 2012 6:28 PM BST
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  • Gender is such a familiar part of daily life and social preconceived perceptions that it usually takes a deliberate disruption of accepted norms of how men and women present themselves before any notice is taken. . Gender signatures are usually so ubiquitous that we fail to notice them .....unless they are missing or ambiguous. Then we become uncomfortable until we are able to place them in one of the two recognized genders, otherwise we feel socially dislocated, unable to be at ease with them.

    In addition to the perceived norm a man can be a (transvestite-a person who adopts the guise of the opposite sex by dressing in clothing related to that gender, this can be for multiple reasons, a sexual fetish,, a form of escapism from reality, disassociation from the stresses of maintaining a gender role, getting some respite from societies expectations.)
    Then we come to the Transsexual,, a Transgendered, a person who's body appearance is incongruent with their mind set, Both these types tend to adopt the mannerisms, appearance, talking and walking of their adopted gender.
    For the individual gender construction and identity starts at birth, as to their apparent physical gender appearance, in accordance with societies expectations. Babies are then dressed and presented in such a way to indicate the assigned gender, pink for girls, blue for boys. To the toys and paraphernalia deemed applicable to their gender. Same goes for naming. From this stage the different genders are treated differently and the expectations by parents and society are different, their education, their general niche in society all mapped out for them, good fathers as providers, protectors, brilliant mothers, nursing, nurturing, etc. Even the societal expectations of their work roles.

    As soon as babies begin to talk they begin to recognize the differences generally accepting their lot in their assigned gender. Some will say they knew they were different from an early age, uncomfortable in their assigned gender, but not really knowing. The onset of puberty has its own set of problems, often this is when Gender dysphoric children really start to question their role in life and become aware , of a differing set of values even down to their sexuality.

    This is all basically an accepted form of cultural and social conditioning, how many parents would even think of dressing a boy baby in a pink romper suit. It’s not wrong in essence, it’s just that when problems do arise with gender identity disorders, society in general should be more aware of the causes and problems these issues raise and be better educated more accepting and tolerant.
    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      March 20, 2011 11:03 AM GMT
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  • ^ I'm sorry you experienced that. I've noticed this kind of acting in college...alleged all female spaces were perfectly open to FTM's but not MTF's.

    Honestly, I think this stems for two things:

    1) for many folks, even (and at times) especially radical feminists...a trans individual is still viewed as a cis-gendered person. This may have somethin to do with the hostility some radical feminists have against MTF's, since we're still "men" after all.

    2) An FTM is viewed as slightly superior by society due to sexism and Patriarchy. "She" is trying her best to trade in the alleged inferior sex for the "superior" one. MTF's must be insane, and thus sexual perverts since nobody in their right mind would trade something superior for something inferior.

    The question of whether a trans invidual is rather simple in my mind, but that's only because I completely detach sexuality from gender. For me, being bigendered any binary is useless to be since there simply not applicable. Sadly, most of society holds to the assume that they are linked.

    Literally, if you take the psychological framework of Real vs Fake me takling this makes much more sense (this is the only binary I really buy into). The Real me, in our case is our gender. The Fake me is our current sex before op. During transitioning there tends to be some awkward phase where the neat pathetic binary of Male vs Female doesn't exactly fit. Thus gay vs straight, if purely looking at someone's sex isn't applicable. However, if one is neatly male or female as her/his real self (like a "pure" MTF) than the gay vs straight binary is applicable.

    I really don't see the need to get caught up in it as long as I'm seen as the Real Me.
      December 7, 2010 9:35 AM GMT
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    Gawd, I buried the lead. When I finally left the group I told them "The only reason you allow transmen and exclude transwomen is because you think transmen are hot and transwomen are not." Stupid exclusionary bullsh1t from a supposedly inclusionary group. God, I hate that.

    Z
    I am the itch, after it was scratched.
      December 6, 2010 3:56 PM GMT
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    Wow Cris, I actually could follow that post, thanks!!

    Just a small example of more general hypocrisy. I belonged to a Leather family (BDSM) when I lived in Tulsa. Several of us belonged to a larger women's Leather group called "Oklahoma Women of Leather" or "OWL". The original jumping off point was that they had posted their requirements for participation in the group. The requirements went like this...

    "This group is open to any individual born as a woman. We also welcome any MtF transsexuals who are living fulltime as a woman,"

    Well, I thought their policy was rather exclusionary. The leader of my family was trans, but she dared not transition because she and her family had a small business as a small slaughterhouse. With all the business they pick up from redneck hunters, her business would virtually disappear overnight if they came to drop off some venison and saw "her" instead of "him".

    I brought this perceived inequity to the attention of OWL on the OWL message board. And as soon as I posted, I was attacked from every direction. So, I pulled out what I believed was a big, stinky double stardard within their by-laws, so I pointed this out to them. I pointed at their own requirements for inclusion. The fact that no matter how long FtM transsexuals had taken hormones, no matter if they have FtM SRS, no matter if they identify as males 100%, didn't matter. When I pointed this out, the leader of the group responded with a very milquetoast answer, saying that no matter how long trans men had been in transition, she believed that trans men "kept their butch heart". While I considered this to be complete hogwash, especially given that, at the time I had a trans man as a roomie and if you would have said that despite transition he "kept his butch heart" he would have punched that person in the nose. He is a MAN. I responded (rather antagonistically, I admit) That I thought trans men were men and why would they want to hang out with a women's group to begin with.

    By this time, the leader of the group tried to switch positions, saying "Well, how would we know this person just wasn't dressing as a woman to check out females." I said that since most of the women in the group were lesbians, there was already plenty of ogling going on, but I also pointed at their hypocrisy again, saying "You have men in your group today. Trans men are men. Doesn't it make more sense to welcome trans women who ARE women, along with trans men?"

    I was greeted with several "gotcha" questions from the rest of the group. Simple questions like "What is a woman?" Even the head of my house coming into the conversation didn't help at all. I was amazed at the vitriol from evven the moderate members. I was saddened by the ccompletely unfair double stardard and I eventually felt as though I had to withdraw from the group. The whole experience saddened me greatly. Up until then, the entire Leather community had seemed like one big circle, everyone singing Kumbaya. Women who I thought were friends insulted me and I have never received any apologies. Hell, there probably think I should apologize.

    Z
    I am the itch, after it was scratched.
      December 6, 2010 3:51 PM GMT
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  • http://www.bbc.co.uk/blog[...]shtml#P

    A comment I made on a BBC survey, Clcik the link for an overall picture of dissapointment and outrage scripted by other members here. Which just about demonstrates it is all about natal men and women

    # 17. At 6:53pm on 06 Feb 2010, Cristine J Shye wrote:

    I'm rather annoyed, yet again the trans community has been excluded, just when they have a chance to make their feelings known. Does the BBC think that Trans people do not have sexual preferences? that Gender dysphoria does'nt come complete with the gay staight label, contrary to what the general perception is amongst the masses we are not gay guys in frocks.

    One instance for logic would be that, male to females presenting and thinking as a female, with gender dysphoria, are not gaymen in frocks as is the general perception, but should be seen as the norm if they have leaning towards a sexual relationship with a man, straight. Males to female still bearing in mind the self identification of being women, if they fancy women, that would logically make them lesbians.

    So, the term Gay, lesbian, straight, bi still applies.

    Its bad enough that the Gender recognition Act 2004 was pushed through Parliment with an exclusion allowing the church the freedom to discriminate against the TS community, now we are being excluded from what I would regard as the only ideal situation in being associated with the LBG, A platform to get a few facts staight. Transgendered might not refer directly to sexual orientation, does that mean the BBC is so nieve to think we have no sex life as transgendered people.
    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      December 6, 2010 12:44 PM GMT
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  • http://wewillnot.wordpres[...]nt-1022

    Thats the link Zoe. I think we have come across this sort of rhetoric from lesbians before. sounds a bit like manish outpourings to me.
    All sounds a bit butch to me.
    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      December 6, 2010 11:31 AM GMT
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    Hi everyone. I have to admit that this kind of clinical language escapes me often. It goes way over my head. But, I was talking to Cris in the chat room today, and I showed her a terrible link full of trans hatred directed from lesbian feminists. She told me to post it here. I hope the link works and if it does, please don't read the comments if you are depressed. The whole thing gives me a stomach ache.

    Z

    http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwewillnot.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F11%2F30%2Fwtf-is-with-the-intersex-comments%2F%23comment-1022&h=6392b
    I am the itch, after it was scratched.
      December 6, 2010 3:47 AM GMT
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