Thank you for the great thread Melody, and thank you for the nice comment Zoe.
Hugs,
Marsha

Hi All,

Sometimes it seems that many folks here are, well to be honest, intolerant and looking for a fight. I've found some of the people I had that impression of are not really so.

As I encounter them on other sites, in the chat room or by personal contacts, I find them to be very real full human beings who have much to say that is valuable to me and anyone else who listens.

I've had several people tell me they have had it with TGS because of the Sturm und Drang that goes on in these forums.

My question is what is it that makes these forums such a battleground. (My own personal answer is that there are a couple of bullies who want to provoke trouble or who's self-esteem is so low they need to "win" any discussion - like I said just my view.)

I ask you all, how can we bring civility to the forums, before they bring the site down?

Best,
Mellie

Hi Mellie,
The only thing that really gets my goat is when the "discussion" takes the form of endless quoting and re-quoting usually preceded by "If you had taken the trouble to actually read my original post!" or some pompous nonsense like that.
The playground name calling that usually accompanies this is frankly embarrassing.

Not bullying, just BORING!

In my (simple) view, websites are a microcosm of society. Within this one, for example, you will find examples of every strata under the umbrella of TS. We're just human. Sometimes it's the reason why I feel the need to post less other times the reverse. I really don't know what the answer is m'dear. But I do confess to the occasional hissy fit!
Much love.
Rae x

Hi Melody:

Having been a member 3 times over 10 years I have seen this confrontational view by some members a number of times. The people change( come and go.) The interesting thing ,with very few exceptions On any given point, I may disagree only to find myself agreeing with them on the very next topic, and I hope it will always be that way. I personally read and seldom post, and I think the majority of members may do the same!!

While I agree with Rae its human nature to want to argue the point, there will always be the odd person who is more vocal than the rest.

I can’t attest to other sites, so it would be wrong of me to offer an opinion from one site to another. However. could it not be members feel more at home on this site, and therefore are more vocal?

Jane x

To Nobody In Particular,
Someone else's anger is THEIR problem. Our anger at their behavior is OUR problem. I find a lot of very angry people, myself in my past included, simply have problems and are often very open when listened to. If we attack each other instead of listening we elicit behavior that we do not really want in exchange for a short feeling of satisfaction that results from blowing off our own anger/stress. Next time, try being a sister instead of becoming part of the problem. The payoff can at least be feeling better about oneself.

Poor Crissie.

Yet again, someone trying to be honest, interesting, raising a topical subject, regarding morality just asking a simple question, Reference the water boarding thread and another of her threads gets suspended due to outragous rhetoric where others views and beliefs are brought into question.. I do not know why she bothers. WTF its a discussion forum, Where people are intitled to voice their opinions and views, not be derided for what they think or how they see life. Rae Kelkou someone I have not even come across before, how dare someone who probably does not even know her personally question her views or values.. Comments like shove it up your arse, just about sums up some of the intelligence thats demonstrated on some of the forums.

It is certainly a pity. I wish we could have real debates where folks don't pick on each other personally, but that doesn't seem to be likely. I myself am very left wing, but I wouldn't attack another person themselves, but their arguments. I think this is where things break down around here.

An original post appears and makes a point. A second post refutes the first point. The third post is a response to the first response and includes a dig having to do with the original responder not reading the post well enough. The fourth post is a new person, coming to the aid of the responder, and she is ready with some insults about anyone who dares to think like the original poster. Etc, etc.

It's the difference between attacking the person and attacking the person's ideas. That seems to get muddled rather easily but it is a hallmark of actual debate. The quickest way to derail a debate is to make a personal attack.

I think also that perhaps some people have been here a long time and some folks are VERY familiar with others here and I think when one of these people posts anything, there are a few people diametrically opposed who are ready to jump on that person.

Personally, I'd like to mention Marsha as someone I personally don't agree with politically. That doesn't mean that I think she is an awful person, or that I don't support her. She is going to have SRS soon and I hope she receives all the support she needs and I want to help bouy her in this difficult time. No, I don't agree with her politically, but personally? I want to support her and all of you 100%.

Z

Perhaps the CDs should start taking spiro etc and the TSs increase their current dosage. Then they may act more ladylike.

I agree with Rae. Some people are quite submissive and others dominant. It is the same in work, school, social groups, churches and most walks of life. Seems a shame though that threads have to be suspended, however I find myself responding to comments whilst I am hot under the collar as I am sure many others do. My partner read a recent thread and was incredulous at my moral outrage, asking me why I gave a damn what other people thought. At first my response was "because its people not giving a damn that erodes freedom and proliferates marginalisation and persecution", however I can't change peoples' minds and its not my place to try. It doesn't mean I have to associate with said people though.

Joanne - I am proud to say my hormones are now well within female parameters. Haven't the foggiest if that helps in any way!

Alison - never give up hope. People can change, it's just a long slow evolutionary process ...

Cristine - Quite so!

Rae xx

girls..........
must say there is a strong point in all the threads so far. it takes all sorts to make this world, and we must be some of the all sorts!!
for most this is THE social outlet for free thinking or just being heard as a girl, and all voices where ever their heart lies surely deserves a simpathetic ear, we all follow the same map of life that we sisters have been given, and free speech and life code is not the top of society's list for us girls, so surely this homely place is the nest for free speech as long as it's in good taste and humor we all sing from the same song sheet.. i don't think that implies we should have the same visions of our world..for 99% of the time the threads are witty or very relevent to the way we live our lives. some times thought provoking and areas for valid discussion, i think free speech and thought are what would make our life's so much more acceptable so surely we cant deride sutch free thinking in here of all places..as long as its not derrogative to specific members or nations in which we live...
wow that was heavy.............. peace and love to all
x sabini xoxo

To my TGS Sisters,

Acceptance, Acceptance, Acceptance!!!!! Isn't that what each of us wants?
Whether it is a Cross Dressing sister wanting her friends & family to accept her or
a Transgendered Girl wanting to just live her life and have her friends support her.

Why then is it so hard for each of us (who desire acceptance) to offer the same to our
sisterly members here at TGS?

It seems somewhat hypocritical to expect acceptance and not offer it to others!

Yes there are debates and not all sisters get along, but let's remember - We
all need a safe place to go to share our thoughts, feelings and secrets without
fear of attack.

Michelle Lynn

You have always been great to me Katie and from everyone I know who knows you personally, you are a wonderful person. But setting that aside I wonder if you realize what you posted here. First of all, you posted "Our forums are just a collection of computer programs. This whole web site is just programs, that's all." I believe you are wrong and the truth is the forums and this website have become a community. I have to believe that is what you intended in the first place. As with any community, people come and go for a number of reasons, just as the neighborhoods we live in change over time. Change can be good or bad, nevertheless it is change and not everyone will like it. And when it changes enough, you cannot not expect some to leave.

Next you said people will cancel their account and send a foul mouthed comment about a dispute you didn't even know about. I have to ask it Katie, why not, why did you not know? Unless you show up here logged in as someone else, nobody knows you. When the chatroom crashes and you say all they need to do is contact you, they don't know you. So how can you say you think it is a bit odd or strange when someone cancels because of something going on here, how do you know?

Melody started this thread asking great questions. One, what is it that makes our forums so controversial, and two, what can we do to bring civility back to the forums. As someone who has been involved in some of the controversies, I can tell you it has nothing to do with who has a paid membership.

Marsha

Marsha, I'm with you on your first paragraph and can see where you're coming from. I also understand Katies point of view. Don't blame the Gender Society for an argument between members. But if it wasn't for the community of GS that argument couldn't have ensued. No easy answer!
Second paragraph I don't follow. Katies email address is well known and there is - I think! - a contact feature here somewhere. But why should she know every little thing that's said here? I don't think anybody would have the time to read every post as and when it's posted and keep a handle on all the debates whilst trying to run the site as a business amongst anything else she has to do. Mission Impossible in my view. What she is doing is enabling us to get together. You wouldn't expect to find her in every conversation...
Third paragraph I'm back with you. Interesting questions which essentially boils down to 'everybody is an individual' but 'surely we can rely on our common interests?'. Again, no easy answer.
I will confess to having met Katie on several occasions and hope to continue to do so in the future.
Hugs n stuff.
Rae x

Well said, and thought out Sabini, my view is exactly the same. There are so many thought provoking gals on this site, even if one disagrees with a sister on one topic, or part thereof, I nearly always come away thinking of the others point of view. (That’s not to say, it will sway me from my own opinion though. And surely that’s what a good forum should be.

Katie a decade ago had a vision, to bring like minded people together, to provide a safe place for the sharing of information, and knowing we were not alone in this world. This she has done remarkably well. By its very nature, it gave a voice, and allowed people of differing opinions to converse and to put their thoughts out into the void of the internet. Katie, you are not to blame for the derision that is sometimes evident, that is human nature. To leave the site because of a disagreement will always be that person’s choice. One can only hope they will return when they are ready.

Marsha please see first paragraph!! I think you once (Tung in cheek) described yourself as a villain. I don’t think so, I see a girl who is not afraid to say it as she sees it.
Hugs
Jane X

Thank you Rae. I don't expect Katie to read every post, but maybe some of the ones on the most popular list would be a good place to start. I have been here a little over four years now and I just feel her visible involvement is lacking if not nearly nonexistent. I am well aware of what she does behind the scenes and I admire her greatly for those efforts. But when her only visible appearance is to post something about how we need to boost membership, I think many just say who is she. Here at GS we have a group I think we can agree are regulars. When the chatroom goes down it is amazing how often these regulars are in the chatroom, yet nobody has contacted Katie as of the time I learn the chatroom is down. More often then not, I am the one who emails Katie. This is probably a moot point with the new site soon to be up, but assume you know to notify Katie the chatroom is down. Now tell me where to go and what steps I need to do in order to contact Katie. Now tell me how the average newer member is going to figure out how to do that if you are not there to tell her. I believe you will find that is easier said than done.

I really don't like breaking it down this way because I know Katie is working hard to make this a better site, and I thank her dearly for having this site available for gals like me who desperately needed such a place to find others during the toughest times of our lives. I honestly credit TW, now GS, for saving my life.

Now with that said, I think it highlights part of the problem Melody has asked about. I think the site has become a free for all. There is no direction, no control. Here I am a moderator and you might be thinking yes you can control things. But I ask, really? How many of the ensuing arguments are because a moderator attempted to stop attacks? The answer is plenty. And I see this site as having the same problems many public schools here in the U.S. have. Lack of discipline. It is not that there are not those who want to discipline those causing the problems, but instead their hands are tied and they are told not to because it may upset some. The problem is the animals now run the zoo. I don't think the "program" can solve that.

Hugs,
Marsha

I wrote this post in reply to Rae's prior post and I now see Katie has commented. I think this responds also to what Katie has added without me changing anything.

Whew.............. I wondered how this subject wasn't addressed on every forum I belong to. That includes the Cars, model building, gender, and other subjects i'm interested in. Too many times , people have a view point in which they get wayyyyyyyyyyy too passionate about and then , Moderators/ Administrators like me have to either delete posts , edit , or other wise "Lock " a topic simply because we behave badly. I'll be honest with some of you, I own a small Gender forum on the web. It's got 31 people and with the exception of a couple who dropped out on their own , very well behaved ! I don't mind telling ya'all, I despise "LOCKING " a topic . However , ive had to do it on one Model Car building forum and on mine too.

What happened for showing common decency , respect and at least being civil to someone anyway ? I would love to have the opportunity to meet every one of you folks face to face ! However , it isn't possable , one being my health won't allow it and I refuse to fly PERIOD ! Still, we enjoy the internet . We can have a two - way dialog and still be decent to one another ......... ellen

Ellen:

You comment about meeting face to face indirectly gets at the root of why conversations can deteriorate quickly--that is, we are NOT face to face. This may have been suggested earlier in the thread and I missed it, but I think there can be little doubt that much of the lack of civility across the web is because people can remain essentially anonymous. Here, we all have an identity, which makes it much better than many political web sites, which are often filled with the worst kind of venom and hate hidden complete anonymity. Yet few of us have met face to face, and it is frankly easier to say something awful behind the veil of the Web.

One issue that I think has not been addressed is an invisible effect of conversations that go down hill. That is, I think it makes much of the community reluctant to take part. We never know about the thoughtful comment that never gets posted. I know I for one am reluctant to get involved in conversations that have started to go down hill. TGS is the one place in the world where I feel I can come and find some empathy, and I feeling pretty vulnerable to begin with, just don't need to open myself to potential attack.

I haven't been here in a couple of months in part because a couple of threads upset me enough to stay away. I like a good argument as much as the next person, but by a good argument, I mean one based on the merits of the case, articulated forcefully but with full consideration that those of a different point of view are just as human and just as fallible as you.

As for Katie, I'm thankful for her efforts every time I log on here. I've been a member of a number of TG sites over the years, but TGS is the best one I know of by far. Without her dedication and passion, it wouldn't be here. So, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Ellen,

Refuse to fly??? I love flying, I do it just for fun when ever I can, So far I've managed a Glider, a Piper Cherokee, a Helicopter ( not sure what it was!) and a whole bunch of big jets, It's not only a great way to get around the world it's also the safest way to travel, or so they say. Any way , sorry off topic again,

I have in the past been as guilty as any one when it comes to "loosing it" in the forums, though I try very hard now not to. I actually enjoy these exchanges (though not the name calling as it inevitably ends the debate) as I find it interesting how people from different cultures/countries view and respond to world topics, though of course opinions are rarely that polarised.

So lets not stifle these great "debates" they are worth while, interesting and informative, if we can just control our emotions!!!
not easy I know!!!! But I'm trying (my mum always said I was a trying child?)

Huggles

Becca