This is a spin off from a poll originally created by Lori Connelly (http://gendersociety.com/profile/lormat/action_id/11148/show_comments/1).  Cristine, asked if somebody could repost this in this particular forum, so here it is.

These were the comments made by various members in response to the poll (at the time of posting).

Please add your comments below

• Penny Zenny If there was an option that said "they are all supportive towards transsexuals as long as they dont have to deal with it" would get my vote.
  
  
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  Steven Andersen First... I'm not married... so that does change my perspective. But when I was dating I found most women were looking for a masculine male... hair on my chest... hairy legs... etc... One women said if she saw me dressed in feminine attire that would turn her off. She had no objection to... or problem with... feminine men. She was just not attracted to them. But I don't think you can say... "Women"... as a group do not accept transgenderism. Personally I think they are more accepting than men, at least that's been my experience. I think you could say that many women, not all, are not attracted to transvestites as a mate. 
  
  
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  Carol Y I came out to my two closest girl friends recently as I needed their help when dealing with a man issue (they have both known me as 'me' for around twenty years now) and they were both wonderful about it. Both put their arms round me (on separate occasions) and said, "God Carol, that must have been horrendous for you, I can't imagine how you even start to overcome a problem like that". We go shopping together, get changed in changing rooms, go out for girlie nights out together and I love them both dearly (in the way that women do who have close female friends). However both have said they would find it difficult to be as supportive if their husbands had told them that they were TS or TV.
  
  
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  Kendra Alexander My current has been very busy trying to figure out how to make it "work" in her head. The ironic part about it all is she was the first person i came out to almost a decade ago and when we ended up in a relationship years later she maintained the stance she wasn't bother by it.....till her family got involved and found out through a weird circumstance and now she has a very hard time even talking to me about any part of that aspect of me. Even gone so far as to tell me she's offended by me. In a lot of women minds we're great friends but not worthy of being mates.....sigh...
  
  
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  Cristine, Shye (Forums Admin) Some girls do, some girls don't, generally women are not very well educated when it comes to Gender identity issues, think ''men in frocks'' are gay. saying that there are some exemplary examples here on the Gender society. where feelings and love have kept people together, the relationships change, but the support and empathy remains. Spose it depends on, how the subject is broached initially. Being transgendered can be a very self indulgent feeling. ''You don't know how I feel'' ''You don't know what its like to be me'' spring to mind. Not enough questions in the survey. the first question, its complex and its wrong is an impossible question. there are those who try and understand, those that don't even want to know, the disgusted. Some women find it amusing, some find it interesting but would'nt want a partner like that. Not to forget that the spouse can be subject to ridicule and abuse for allowing it. it also undermines their own confidence.

Hmm ... the question simply begs to be shot down for being way too narrow, too gender biased, all of which are way 'too tempting' LOL.  I was taught to always reverse a question, as a means of guaging how fair it maybe.  So lets be fair and say, 'society in general is struggling with transgenderism' ... and refuses to go down without a fight!  On the surface most people accept the concept of transgenderism, it's just when they are confronted by the issue, when they are placed in a position where they have to scrutinise their definition, and understanding of gender issues, then kind of unravels.

What defines a woman? What defines 'true' acceptance?  

The statement to be valid, ought to be, 'transgender women do "truly" accept transgenderism' the rest of socity is a broad spectrum ranging from informed tollerance through indifference through to fear and prejudice.  When I dated a post-op transgender woman, I lost most of my friends, both men and women, I'd say it was fine until I mentioned serious relationship/settling down ... then the gloves came off, the bets were off and I was told I needed to 'get help'!  Women generally are more tolerant than men on a wide range of issues, including gender, but specifically the individual makes a value judgement 'on the spot' based on a set of variables (values, personal prejudices, upbringing, preconcieved ideas, media, social norms, etc).  So big hugs if they do 'accept' - and ignore them if they don't

I would agree Al, and the doctrine of reversing the situation to see how I would feel about it is something I do myself for many things.

However, this is a difficult one as I suspect most CD's would say that they would accept the situation.  Plus it's not something you can reverse easily, women have access to a far wider range of clothing, so it's just not possible to say "How would you feel if your wife started dressing in a suit, shirt and tie and wanted you to take her out".  Also women have the option to wear make up or go without, we can have our hair cropped short or wear it long - both are completely acceptable to society at large.

I could not respond to the "poll" by voting. but the discussion it opens up is informative.I like Al  and Christines Posts on this. . Taking up on Als comment 'The statement to be valid, ought to be, 'transgender women do "truly" accept transgenderism' the rest of socity is a broad spectrum ranging from informed tollerance through indifference through to fear and prejudice.'

- I agree , . 

What defines "True" Acceptance? Good Question- For the Transgendered person there is the internal struggle to resolve their "self"for the better, and presenting this to the outside world, which means changes.

-For the SO  , Acceptance of probable Change is complex , and really difficult to use words like "True".I think it is as diifficult for the SO as the TG, . The SO needs support and care, so dont forget this !! 

-For that rest of Society [ who may consider themselves resolved in knowing themselves and presenting an aligned gender] thats "women","men" .. tendency to be more accepting with people who have accepted themselves

The Questions in the survey were about SO's not general society as a whole, don't forget SO's also include Parents, especially if your a young transgendered person.

Women marry MEN, for many reasons,  A masculine image, support, protection, sex and financial reasons,   some will accept basic cross dressing, but the tend to get paraoid and  feel betrayed if they discover that things will go further.    As in the case if they find out after they have taken on a commitment, also there are very often childeren to think of.

When it comes to parents as SO's, they have ambitions for their children,  The dissapointment,   As I know personally the rejection, the anger,  the refusal of parent to learn or accept anything related to any Gender Identity problems.    They take it personally, some refusing to accept that you are even their son or daughter, ''Where did that come from''    Nothing like that in our families.   But as we have seen in recent documentarys, some do, some don't accept it.

One cannot generalise, take every situation as it comes.  

http://gendersociety.com/forums/topic/7805/heteronormativity

http://gendersociety.com/forums/topic/7790/synopsis-of-the-etiology-of-gend

Thanks first for the good points Carol and Donna, we are more the sum of our parts ... even if some parts require a bit of re-adjustment courtesy of the medical profession, legal profession, or beauty profession! 

Ah, now to Cristine, and my straying from the point ... a matter on which she is completely correct, SO's and famiy are part of an indespensable  'personal network', but they - as we are - part of the elephant in the room which answers to the name, 'society'.  We are all part of this social elephant ... and as Richard O'Brien had his character Dr Everett 'Von' Scott say  'Society must be protected.'  SO's seems to encapsulate a number of relationships, all of which are significant, and deserving of respect (where earned).  Society, isn't the question, it is however at the heart of the conundrum.

"Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who would want to live in an institution?" Henry Mencken

People get married, not just 'women marry men' ... and marriages evolve over time, some survive others don't, either way the do not remain set in stone ... otherwise my mum and dad would have stuck it out and probablyg lived to be 'unhappily ever after'!!

Women (and men) do marry for many reasons, some of those reasons are concious others unconcienable, a great deal of it is to 'be seen' to fit in with 'social norms' - back to that Dickens book 'Great Expectations' ...

image, sex, money, power, position/status, social mobility, security: I ought to know, having broken up enough taboo paving slab to make a crazy paved patio (with barbeque optional).  

I think women are tollerant, to a point, there are various non-negotiable lines which they will not cross, we all have them, they prevent us running the risk of becoming emotional/sexual doormats.  Weirdest thing is that children are usually more accepting than adults, possibly because they take their cues from the SO adults, etc within the social circle around them. We were all children once, sponges soaking up pools of information and knowledge, from the adults and SO's around us.

If CD were a lifestyle choice, I might well feel paranoid and betrayed, who wouldn't - but it is much like life itself, an on-going negotiation.

For a number of reasons a large number of marriages do not last these days, it would be fair to say that their is less emphasis put on the committment, and more on the 'big day', after which the rest might easily seem dull and humdrum ... without a lot of love, daily life can be a bit disappointing ...   

Society has placed huge burdens on parents and especially SO's, when things alter unexpectedly in the 'secure' world we seek to create around our kids, it tends to negative impact on the adults more so than the kids. The SO adults feel they have failed their kids, and this feeling of being powerless can give rise to helplessness, disempowerment, which can be very frightening.

I was born and have always been 'male' - that isn't to say I don't have a strong awareness of my softer feminine side, but I am aware of and comfortable with my gender, but being from a broken home I also know what it feels like to be rejected, to both endure and embrace the anger,  the refusal of parent to grow  as people beyond that 'institution' they both entered 'for better or for worse'.

Every family is part of a fractured and sometimes quite disfunctional society, a society that dresses up in a 'liberal' basque and 'acceptable' high heels, and struts its 'idealised' funky stuff, when in reality, it tends towards the puerile, conservative, pruddish and a bit boring ...  like it or not, we are part of this on-going social experiment ... society will have to  find a way of defining 'acceptance', because, like it or not, gender identity is a vital part of the solution - not the problem.  I have had to generalise in this response mainly because I am a man, and I can't fully experience or understand everyones personal journay, but that does not make me less sympathetic or empathic, we all have our own scars - some of them are surgical, others are less obvious.  

It's quite an emotive issue, the question is part of a bigger issue, an issue which deserves to be unpacked, but unpacking it as such - is fraut with difficulties, as such, there are no straight-forward answer ... it is part of a series of negotiations.   

Instead of trying to "Boil the ocean", my comments are limited to my S.O.

 When I first came out to her, she was shocked and moved out for about 2 weeks, but then moved back in.   As we had discussions and later saw a therapist, what came out was -

1. She felt betrayed, but understands and wants me to be happy.

2. She was concerned about what "others" Think. (All the neighbors and by best friend are ok with me as  Michelle).

3. She is concerned about what it means for her.  Does it mean if I transition that that makes her  a lesbian if she stays?

4. As she is quite religious, what does it mean from GOD's point of view.

 We have been working with a therapist on many of these issues, but progress is slow.

The reality is that she is simultaneously  having to handle the feeling of betrayal, partial  loss of the husband she knew, navigate the Gender ID vs Gender Preference issues and work thru what if anything her religion says about transgenderism.

No wonder so many women choose to simply give up on the relationship and leave. I'm glad that she is at least trying to work thru these issues with me. I hope that others going thru this are successful.

Hugs,

Michelle

I couldn't agree more with Michelle, about attempting to evaporate 'the ocean", naturally such an exercise would be self-defeating.  Instead I'd like to consider the best way(s) to 'transcend' those barriers - whether metaphorical, emotional, personal or even personal.

When it comes to 'coming out' to SO's, each individual has a personal, unique and [though it may not seem like it at the time] valuable experience ... I recall one person describing the effect as that of skipping a flat stone across a still pond ... impact, impact, impact, splash and ripples.

1. DOWNLOAD Any, and in fact all, fundamental change made, within the operating system of - and dynamics within, a relationships, are going to impact on a personal level, the confusion is often described as feeling like 'betrayal' - perhaps it is part of a coping mechanism, leaving the parties involved an unenviable and unavoidable choice that of what the relationship evolves into (or otherwise).  We all want to be happy, how that is achieved without invoking the wrath of the dreaded 'Pleasure Principle' still perplexes the heck out of most of humanity!  We may change gender, partners, SO, lifestyle, but we still have to deal with how we make others feel it is one of life's unexplored 'mind field'.  So 'Don't worry - be happy'! 

2. BETA TESTING Friends and family are a highly developed emotional and social 'safety-net', they form part of how we are defined as people, other than by ourselves ... it's true that what people don't say to your face, will usually get discussed, by other people elsewhere, and that can be very 'challenging'.  Keep smiling - the worse thing they can say then is that you've lost your head [but never your sense of humour].     

3. REBOOTING What do changes withing gender imply about a persons personality? Can it be taken as an indicator that a CD can not be trusted?  Are transgender people perceived as inherently dishonest - as in they can't be 'straight with themselves' never mind other people ... forgive the play on words  Is acceptance based upon compliance with certain basic rules relating to conformity, perception and social norms?  Do CD's bring into question the notion of unconditional love? Time to reboot.        

4. WINDOWS IN HEAVEN Most Gods have both male and female attributes, some like the Jewish/Christian God is undefined, QED is neither male nor female.  Whatever the religious beliefs of a person or persons, whatever someone chooses to believe is 'their truth'.  So be true to yourself and your beliefs, and, like wearing Jimmy Choos, you'll avoid being 'wrong footed' ...

5.  WORD Progress seems to be slow no matter how much preparation has been done the day before!!

6. DEFRAGMENTING The reality is that we relate to, and approach, this question from very differently angles, it is a process like grieving, only the deceased refuses to 'lie down and play dead' ... You win some, you lose some ... you win a friend, lose an SO or life-partner, and you have to accept going 'back to the square one'. 

7. LOGGING OFF - The choice to leave or stay is usually an instinctive one, living with that decision on a daily basis is harder  ... like a Vindaloo it may result in 'heart-burn' and end up being a pain in the 'glutes'.

I can only 'doff my imaginary hat' to those who are happy (transitioned or otherwise) and avoid wading, too deeply, into a 'boiling sea' of opinion and discussion, except as a bystander.  People in general worry too much, remember, “Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself." Acceptable or otherwise we expect our views and feelings to treated with consideration and respect, this applies equally to those of SO's.  

Perhaps in time people will be more accepting of each with our many differences.  Gender expression and presentation is one of those current battle fronts.  It seems we have come so far and so fast it's just going to take time for the rest of society to catch up and learn what it means to be human.  We have so many years of prejudice and bigotry to over come, so many wars and conflicts.  When will we all learn to respect each other and not impose our own values and beliefs?

But time can heal all wounds and generations pass.  As a bi-gender or two spirited person who is a GM, genetic male, but wishes to present to the world both the masculine and the feminine I hope the transition could be swift.  All I can do is smile and speak from my heart.