What iatrogenic effects Chalice - freedom, peace of mind, tranquiility, finally being yourself, loving who you are, being honest with yourself and the world around you, free from guilt.

The RLE is not the monster that you are making it out to be.

PS - iatrogenic means an effect induced inadvertently by a physician or surgeon or by medical treatment or diagnostic procedures - so if you are referring to transphobia by the outside world this is not iatrogenic as the physician did not induce these effects it is society that causes that.  So I would be grateful if you could explain exactly what you mean by iatrogenic.

Geez Carol I'm not trying to take over the Trangender Movement. But you need to hear my voice if you are going to take issue with every thought that I conceive. I've been to the gates of medical neglect and omission over gender disphoria. The medical profession commits iatrogenic error by doing too much and also not doing enough. The RLE is prescriptive. It is the sole criteria upon which SRS is granted or denied. Even private patients need certified evidence of RLE before any competent surgeon will agree to it.  

My view. People can jump up and down and scream and shout about the necessity of RLE in its current form, and insist on transsexuals blindly prescribing to it and without question, and then simply wash their hands of any accountablitiy when things go tragically wrong, but I am not going to be complicit in it.

Things go wrong with RLE; that has been well documented. I'm not scaremongering, I am simply seeking to avoid any tragic or fatal pitfalls. My approach is not to jump blindly into the unknown, but to astutely and competently prepare for it. If you want to advocate for an ad hoc, higgledy-piggledy approach to transition then go for your life. I'm simply saying: Look before you leap. Lucy has expertly pointed out it is not a time, or a case, of: Those who hesitate are lost.     

Carol Uren (Site Moderator) said:

What iatrogenic effects Chalice - freedom, peace of mind, tranquiility, finally being yourself, loving who you are, being honest with yourself and the world around you, free from guilt.

The RLE is not the monster that you are making it out to be.

PS - iatrogenic means an effect induced inadvertently by a physician or surgeon or by medical treatment or diagnostic procedures - so if you are referring to transphobia by the outside world this is not iatrogenic as the physician did not induce these effects it is society that causes that.  So I would be grateful if you could explain exactly what you mean by iatrogenic.

Serving the Trans community

^*_*^ 

 

When have I ever advocated that you jump blindly into RLE Chalice???? Answer - NEVER!!!!!!

I always recommend thinking about it carefully before doing it, that is why I took my time and had my electrolysis before transitioning.  Even then with all the careful planning in the world, things can go wrong - they did for me, when the company that I worked for decided to sack me because they found out during a medical examination that I was transsexual.  So I did jump in the end, and you know what, it was the best thing that I have ever done in my life.

Take all the time you need before going into the RLE Chalice, nobody is rushing you, it is your life - but imho (backed up by medical satistics) is that any surgery before completing the RLE is simply inviting disaster.

What I am arguing against is a complete re-invention of a model which works extremely well and has proved to work well, just to fit in with your own agenda.

Well, we all step over, and sometimes go far beyond, the mark when making a point but it is the point that is important not the exaggeration. I have seen some people doing RLE and I have to say; You have got to be kidding! Unfortunately they were not isolated cases. You know, maybe such abominations could be prevented if people could spend more time cross-dressing as a preparation for RLE. It is not in anyone's interest to set the Transsexual movement up for ridicule or derision.

I am not calling for a complete re-invention of RLE, far from it, and I acknowledge that it works extremely well sometimes. I am simply ensuring that the RLE, in what ever fashion I may elect to embrace it, will be a perfect fit for me. My earlier comments support a change, not a total and unrecognisable revamp.

In her article, Jane Fae is less than complementary towards the Real Life Experience (RLE). In fact, her conclusion unequivocally makes the claim that the current form of RLE negatively colours the medically sanctioned process of transition.  

... the scope of my present interest in the current RLE paradigm is to nuance of the aspects of social welfare and harm minimisation for transsexuals from within the contemporary understanding of transitioning.

...It is simply the case that the current form of RLE is anachronistic.  

The current form of the RLE is archaic, anachronistic and abhorrent. It may have worked for an uninformed and infantile society over the past decades but that doesn't give it any validity for the present time or any foreseeable time in the future. 

 

Carol Uren (Site Moderator) said:

When have I ever advocated that you jump blindly into RLE Chalice???? Answer - NEVER!!!!!!

I always recommend thinking about it carefully before doing it, that is why I took my time and had my electrolysis before transitioning.  Even then with all the careful planning in the world, things can go wrong - they did for me, when the company that I worked for decided to sack me because they found out during a medical examination that I was transsexual.  So I did jump in the end, and you know what, it was the best thing that I have ever done in my life.

Take all the time you need before going into the RLE Chalice, nobody is rushing you, it is your life - but imho (backed up by medical satistics) is that any surgery before completing the RLE is simply inviting disaster.

What I am arguing against is a complete re-invention of a model which works extremely well and has proved to work well, just to fit in with your own agenda.

Regards

~*!*~

This post was edited by Former Member at May 13, 2013 2:40 PM BST

think I'm opting out of the updates in this 1 now ..

Chalice said:

You know, maybe such abominations could be prevented if people could spend more time cross-dressing as a preparation for RLE. It is not in anyone's interest to set the Transsexual movement up for ridicule or derision.

Wow!!!!!  So anybody who 'fails' your arbitary beauty standards would be prevented (wonder how they could actually do that) from transitioning???  These people feel exactly the same as me, Lucy or any of the other TS's on here - but you would refuse them treatment.  I cannot believe you just said that.

This post was edited by Former Member at May 13, 2013 2:04 PM BST

*gets popcorn*

Anyone can see that you are too selective in your criticisms. As soon as I make the statement: " we all step over, and sometimes go far beyond, the mark when making a point but it is the point that is important not the exaggeration." you pick up on the exaggeration and totally disregard the point. So I should reiterate my points:  

It is not in anyone's interest to set the Transsexual movement up for ridicule or derision.

I am simply ensuring that the RLE, in what ever fashion I may elect to embrace it, will be a perfect fit for me.

It is unfair to make unfounded assumptions about what I base my views on. I never said the inappropriateness of RLE in the examples I cited were based on beauty or the lack of it. In fact, I never gave any criteria for my beliefs, other than to suggest I would not do it that way. I mean, the whole idea of identification and intervention is to prevent such calamnities. It would simply be dishonest to advance the view that no-one has, or ever will, get the RLE wrong. I've seen it, and that cannot be denied.

And, not to be overlooked, is your assertion that I have the desire or authority to refuse someone compassion or offer doubt in place of support. What happens here is your point is completely obfuscated by your exaggeration.

if you want to lock horns with me Carol, go right ahead. I have spent decades doing this sort of stuff. lol

Carol Uren (Site Moderator) said:

Chalice said:

You know, maybe such abominations could be prevented if people could spend more time cross-dressing as a preparation for RLE. It is not in anyone's interest to set the Transsexual movement up for ridicule or derision.

Wow!!!!!  So anybody who 'fails' your arbitary beauty standards would be prevented (wonder how they could actually do that) from transitioning???  These people feel exactly the same as me, Lucy or any of the other TS's on here - but you would refuse them treatment.  I cannot believe you just said that.

~*!*~

 

I was merely remarking on a point that you made Chalice, in much the same way that you pick up on points which I make.

Fair comment Carol. Excellent thread, btw, and equally excellent choice of article. I am totally beside myself. It is enormously helpful even if the full benefits may not be realised immediately.

Carol Uren (Site Moderator) said:

I was merely remarking on a point that you made Chalice, in much the same way that you pick up on points which I make.

~*!*~

 

Chalice Brendale said:

 For example, I will be going to our LGBT centre soon to seek help and advice in setting up a LGBT support group in our school. Why? Because we have LGBT students and they have some of the most challenging difficulties of all our students. Most of our Gay students are quite out and open but we also have a transsexual student. Now I put this sensitively, s/he doesn't know or maybe s/he does, but I am confident of my observations: s/he is transsexual. So what of her? Surely my arguments are aimed at her social welfare and harm minimisation. It could be none of my business and maybe I should stand idly by and allow her to go through the ordeals that we all relate to each other on a daily basis. I will see what our LGBT centre has to say about this.    

 

Julia Ford says.

 

Yes you do need to seek help that is very clear here.

 

Please don't be so cruel and set up an LGBT group in your school! You will confuse the members like you are confusing everyone else here and the members will all go mad. As for the TS student again please do not inflict you ideals on to her she will never transition just like you. 

 

 

 

 

Cristine, the doctors and 'shrinks' who are not advancing the interests of individual transsexuals are part of the problem so siding with them is simply sleeping with the enemy. There is a culture of litigation but by the same token it is a buyer beware environment as well. The consumer of medical services needs to be fully advised in order to be able to make 'informed decisions.'

Cristine, Shye (GS Admin) said:

Also anyone in the medical profesion would have to consider the litigation culture. Do hospitals and medical staff, doctors, hand out pills and medicines without first establishing a need for them, how many have we seen here in the forums, asking ''I want tits but want to stay male, what hormones should I take''

Well yes they do. Misdiagnosis is common enough to be a serious concern. And who knows why some doctors make the recommendations they do. We had a doctor in Broken Hill called Doc Holiday because he was the one to see if someone wanted a day off. In fact, I got my first medications on prescription from him. (NB. They replaced those I was getting on the internet.)  

Classic case for a need of RLE. Medical staff, shrinks need to be convinced a person is in need. They do not cut a persons leg off just because the patient THINKS they have gangrene. Might be over simplyfying things I know. But nobody can come up with a logical and foolproof alternative for RLE. Why do people need driving lessons before they take a driving test. Why have a driving test, why not just let anyone drive.  

The odd person does slip through get SRS and live to regret it. the major percentage of those are self diagnosed self treated and go abroad for surgery. AND any renowned surgeon will require a full medical history, reports etc before he would even contemplate  surgery.

Being convinced is exactly what I have been putting forward. In particular the identification, intervention and amelioration of gender disphoria. Current trends and methods may be up to the task, but that is not my issue. The concern I have is that those not totally 'au fait' with the status quo recklessly dictate out of hand, and in total disregard for the ramifications and consequences of that advice. This I have also said before:

It behooves all of us to read and fully understand the SOCs, and even more importantly to be able to apply them competently to a variety of individuals and their differing social circumstances.

 

~*!*~

 

   

 

This post was edited by Former Member at May 13, 2013 4:17 PM BST

Chalice Brendale said:

Cristine, the doctors and 'shrinks' who are not advancing the interests of individual trassexuals are part of the problem so siding with them is simply sleeping with the enemy. There is a culture of litigation but by the same token it is a buyer beware environment as well. The consumer of medical services needs to be fully advised in order to be able to make 'informed decisions.'

Cristine, Shye (GS Admin) said:

Also anyone in the medical profesion would have to consider the litigation culture. Do hospitals and medical staff, doctors, hand out pills and medicines without first establishing a need for them, how many have we seen here in the forums, asking ''I want tits but want to stay male, what hormones should I take''

Well yes they do. Misdiagnosis is common enough to be a serious concern. And who knows why some doctors make the recommendations they do. We had a doctor in Broken Hill called Doc Holiday because he was the one to see if someone wanted a day off. In fact, I got my first medications on prescription from him. (NB. They replaced those I was getting on the internet.)  

Classic case for a need of RLE. Medical staff, shrinks need to be convinced a person is in need. They do not cut a persons leg off just because the patient THINKS they have gangrene. Might be over simplyfying things I know. But nobody can come up with a logical and foolproof alternative for RLE. Why do people need driving lessons before they take a driving test. Why have a driving test, why not just let anyone drive.  

The odd person does slip through get SRS and live to regret it. the major percentage of those are self diagnosed self treated and go abroad for surgery. AND any renowned surgeon will require a full medical history, reports etc before he would even contemplate  surgery.

Being convinced is exactly what I have been putting forward. In particular the identification, intervention and amelioration of gender disphoria. Current trends and methods may be up to the task, but that is not my issue. The concern I have is that those not totally 'au fait' with the status quo recklessly dictate out of hand, and in total disregard for the ramifications and consequences of that advice. This I have also said before:

It behooves all of us to read and fully understand the SOCs, and even more importantly to be able to apply them competently to a variety of individuals and their differing social circumstances.

 

~*!*~

 And Julia Ford says.

   

And Cristine Shye knows what she is talking about . You have misdiagnosed yourself . Talk is no good at your age this thread is about courage and bravery. Or is it just about you?.

 

This post was edited by Former Member at May 13, 2013 4:20 PM BST

I think forum courtesy is pretty universal. You can't pretend you've never been on forums before. So just to give you a heads up and clear any confusion, I don't think your comment was helpful or welcome. Are you contributing to the discussion?

Keep on topic and do not purposely railroad threads. Have some respect for the topic starter and keep to the topic being discussed. You may not think the topic is worthy of discussion, but others may. You are not the moderator, so don't take it upon yourself to decide what can and can't be discussed here. This includes posting things such as 'get out the popcorn/snacks/chocolate etc' or 'trainwreck coming'. If you do wish to sidetrack from the original topic, start a new thread in the appropriate forum.

 

Debbie Davies(forum mod) said:
*gets popcorn*

I'm just shocked and stunned.

 

 

This post was edited by Former Member at May 13, 2013 4:28 PM BST

Chalice Brendale said:

I think forum courtesy is pretty universal. You can't pretend you've never been on forums before. So just to give you a heads up and clear any confusion, I don't think your comment was helpful or welcome. Are you contributing to the discussion?

Keep on topic and do not purposely railroad threads. Have some respect for the topic starter and keep to the topic being discussed. You may not think the topic is worthy of discussion, but others may. You are not the moderator, so don't take it upon yourself to decide what can and can't be discussed here. This includes posting things such as 'get out the popcorn/snacks/chocolate etc' or 'trainwreck coming'. If you do wish to sidetrack from the original topic, start a new thread in the appropriate forum.

 

 

 

 

And who is taking this thread off topic? Seems very clear to me . Again it is about courage and bravery and all that goes with transition. It has been over run by crazy mad posts that have nothing to do with RLE. That is what Julia ford says because it is true.

 

 

 

This post was edited by Former Member at May 13, 2013 4:44 PM BST

Enough already! Let's declare a "winner" and move on...gawd!  Y'all are cluttering up the home page to "win"...

Where exactly in our forum rules does it explicitly state that Chalice.  You cannot make the rules up as you go along you know and then start quoting them at other members.  I really would be grateful if you could point out where that passage is on this site.

More interesting than "Carol likes Traci" though or "Samantha likes Lesley" etc  type of posts Traci, surely??

 Maybe this can be looked at with a different point of view.

 

 As a "newbie" here, just under a week, I see a disturbing trend with this thread, maybe it is just me. Maybe some of these threads need to be as an opt-in. As in, If I want to see it or not. How this is going, how well intended or not, creaping across the main sign in page of the site makes my skin crawl for those coming here looking for help, friendship, and maybe a life long SO.

 Bravery/Courage or No Other Way - It takes a lot of strength to make it this far. To come to a web site like this. Spill your guts, no matter if your right or wrong, in front of complete strangers, hoping for that thread of acceptance when everything around you is rejecting you. When everything around you is pushing at you to conform to the rigid gender molds. My condtion though not as common as the others, I hope allows me to see things, maybe in a differently, loving, caring.... I hope this is not more darkness going around posing as light. I've been thrusted into darkness too many times.

 RLE - The h*** of Real Life Experiences has allowed me to learn on thing. If I go out as plain billie, I am accepted. They call me Miss? Miss? can I help you. Any other way I meet with the ones who did a double take on me, thought I was a female, realized I was a male, and hate flies over me like vultures overhead looking for something to eat. I hope this thread has not taken on the vulture dine in "Look." Something that may become improperly fed on by the very vutlures we wish would stay outside of this place. Or, turned us into the very vultures we run from. IMHO......

Billie , It is not disturbing it is Demented! As you say you are a newbie you will soon realise just by looking at this thread how one persons idea of what they call "Discussion" Turns into Mayhem.

 

Julia.

The chaos and insanity continues to develop day by day!!!      

 

Reading these forums should be made compulsary for anyone who is struggling with issues of any kind..... as the worst that could happen is they will go away from it thinking that maybe things in their lives are not as complicated as they thought after all.

 

@Carol...yes, it was up to a point...it's gone past that point!  New topic???  Hmmm...OK...is it possible in my next life I can be a mermaid or a dolphin???

Traci xoxo

Awww chalice you might not have found my two word comment helpful but others found it funny and therefore it helped to make them smile. I watch other posters have a go at you daily And you don't bother none. I must have special powers to shock and stun you with my little attempt at humour! Thank you for showing me those rules though, I promise to be a good girl from now on and never attempt to try to lighten the mood in between the walls of text consisting of excruciatingly long words. Don't take it so hard chalice, no spite or hurt was intended ok?? Peace out x

*Sweet corn*

 I have special powers to Debs xx

Carol, Carol, Carol. Oh, its raining Carols, or maybe its just too early for Caroling. lol.

Try to keep up darling! My comment went to Debs: "I beg your pardon? I don't know about here, but on other equally reputable forums these sorts of comments are banned." Its borrowed from another forum yet, as I said, railroading forums is fairly universal and I admit avoiding it takes some practise. A warning here, a ban there.

Debs has said it was done in jest, but let me be the smart arse just once: "Deceipt is often hidden behind jest" quote - mine.                     

Carol Uren (Site Moderator) said:

Where exactly in our forum rules does it explicitly state that Chalice.  You cannot make the rules up as you go along you know and then start quoting them at other members.  I really would be grateful if you could point out where that passage is on this site.

Chalice

~*!*~

 

This post was edited by Former Member at May 13, 2013 9:13 PM BST

For crying out loud will you just give up? An observation! The person with the user name Chalice Brendale .

You could have made your point in one single post "But" You have no point to make it is just nonsense . None of it makes any sense at-all.

You have no idea of how to explain your transition because there is no transition you have made that clear here and in other threads.

Another observation! You say you are a teacher yet spend every waking hour on a trans website! Do you not have any responsibility for your students?.

 

This topic is about RLE and Bravery and Courage so as it is clear to most you have no experience on any of those subjects just talk sense or let it drop . You are an insult to intelligent people who know what they are talking about.

Carol posted this for others to learn from and to inform people and allow normal discussion. You have made this all about you you you not Carol Carol Carol . The problem is we are still no wiser from your 10.000 words! It is more fun reading the terms and conditions for iTunes and that is 36.000 words long.

This post was edited by Former Member at May 13, 2013 9:46 PM BST

FFS you peeps all need your heids banging together.......no need for all this petty bitching

Chalice,

Unlike you, a number of people here have gone through RLE- so until your have actually experienced RLE you don't really have any first hand knowledge in which to base your assumptions. Further,

1) You seem to ignore other peoples first hand knowledge of the matter, and in turn, attack their positions and have turned this forum into some kind of contest in which you think you can make the highest "Pee-stain" on the wall.

2) Cristine made a good point...you can't normally expect to get your driving licence...without  first taking lessons. Just because you THINK you can drive does not mean you actually drive safely.

3) When a person is first hired at a workplace, there is usually a trial period to allow the person to learn the subtleties of the job and to prove to the employer that the person can actually do the job. The same goes for the National Health Program or the equivalent in your country. Why should that organization allow you to undergo something as serious (and expensive) as Gender Reassignment Surgery and/or Hormone Therapy until you have proven to them that it is in your best interests and that you will function well afterwards.

4) A little knowledge is dangerous!!

Cristine, I have read the piece you composed and also the comments that followed it.

In accordance with the facts that you both have presented I have extended those ideas to what seems to me to be sound, logical and natural consequences.   

The replies made by Jakie Smith are classic 'axe to grind' comments. Nevertheless, she has made an excellent analysis of the scientific findings. However, she can only make her criticism by standing on the shoulders of the original poster (Cristine). Still, this should not detract from the impasse created by her (Jakie's) comments. " Bigenderism proves that gender can, in fact, fluctuate."

So while Katie makes an adequate analysis of the scientific findings, she fails to present a persuasive synthesis of the status quo. Fortunately, I can do that. 

Although, the fact that gender fluctates has been confirmed by scientific inquiry, a fluctuating gender is not particular, or exclusive, to the Bigendered. If we accept that gender fluctuates then; it fluctuates for the uber masculine and the cis feminine, as well as those who are Bigendered. In other words, gender fluctation is common to all genders.

What is being missed in Katie's argument is that while gender fluctuates across all genders the thing that is important to consider is the base state of that fluctuation which gives each person their gender identity. Each time gender fluctuates it returns to a resting state. For some the base/resting state will be male and for others it will be female, while some others will be Bigendered and many will fall at different degrees on either side of the spectrum.

I don't know, I have a thing about early identification. Today our transsexual student (15yo) told us he is Gay. S/he's not Gay though, s/he's Transsexual. My concern is that s/he won't find the peace of he/r resting state until s/he reaches an awareness of he/r condition, and that doing nothing on my part and allowing things to slowly and progressively get worse is immoral and unethical.

Cristine, Shye (GS Admin) said:

Those who are not treated in adolescence may continue to struggle to conform; they may embark on relationships, marriages and parenthood in an attempt to lead ‘normal’ lives by suppressing their core gender identity. Ultimately, however, they may be unable to continue with the charade of presenting themselves as something they know they are not. The artificiality of their situation drives individuals to seek treatment to minimise the mismatch between the brain and the bodily appearance. They experience an overwhelming need to be complete, whole people and to live in accordance with their internal reality. Until this is achieved, the personal discomfort is such that it leads to great unhappiness and sometimes to suicidal feelings.

An extract from something I wrote some time ago     http://gendersociety.com/articles/231/gender-variant-people

Chalice

~*!*~ 

 

This post was edited by Former Member at May 15, 2013 10:54 AM BST

Chalice Brendale said: I have a thing about early identification. Today our transsexual student (15yo) told us he is Gay. S/he's not Gay though, s/he's Transsexual. My concern is that s/he won't find the peace of he/r resting state until s/he reaches an awareness of he/r condition, and that doing nothing on my part and allowing things to slowly and progressively get worse is immoral and unethical.

So you have a thing about early identification do you? Well to start you could show HER some respect and not reffer to them as HE/SHE I call that knocking them back before they begin. Do her a favour and stay away from her.

For someone heading towards their 60s "your thing" about early identification holds no water.

 

Again this thread is about RLE Bravery and Courage of which you know nothing of .

There are all types of people in this world and amongst us we have talkers and doers . Now the doers get the talkers talking whilst the talkers just keep on talking about the doers. The doers do things that is why they are called doers. Then the talkers keep digging a big hole for themselves and the only way they can (in their mind) to get out of that hole is to keep having a go at the doers. It is not working Can you not see that? .

 

Can you actually see anything apart from your own nonsense arguments?.

 

Come back to this when you can explain yourself in one single post. Show some respect for the ones that do know what they are talking about and stop turning every point in this thread around just to suit you . Your continuous insults to other peoples intelligence are getting you no where.

I may not have had an education but at least I say what I mean and mean what I say. Your long words mean nothing if there is no real explanation and I can't see one here.

 

Thank you everyone you have been a wonderful audience.

 

Julia.

 

This post was edited by Former Member at May 31, 2013 9:58 PM BST

It did Crissie it needs bringing back to attention.